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Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?

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Posted on October 26, 2009 at 17:55:05
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Im really sick of hearing my PC Fan...from across the house. My computer is long in the tooth, however functioning perfectly in conjunction with my Sqeezebox.

How painless is a switch to MAC, not just for a networked music server, but for computing in general....

Thanks in advance.

Why Use Either?, posted on October 31, 2009 at 12:25:09
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Joined: September 27, 2004
 If you use a Squeezbox, just add a NAS. Do away with the computer altogether, except to add more music files. Better still, get a NAS with a built-in CD drive and forget your PC or Mac. Consider a RipNAS or AVA. Using these rids your listening room of your noisy and audio-unfriendly computer, complete with monitor, keyboard and mouse - you need none of this computer "junk". And forget about all that third party software that excercies the minds of many of the contributors to this forum. If you get the RipNAS, you have twin 500 GB near-silent laptop drives (expandable to 2 x 3.5 TB), all the software you need and the best drive for ripping music.

Return your computer to what it was designed for - computing!

Peter

RE: Why Use Either?, posted on October 31, 2009 at 15:27:30
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 You know, you make perfect sense. I strongly leaning towards an NAS solution.

I really DON'T want to be tied to my computer to able to access my FLACs.

Here is a question: Are these NAS devices expandable with your own drives...I have three 1TB drives I used now...can those just be plugged in via USB to a central NAS device.

Thanks again, your suggestion may give me the best of both worlds.

But I still may switch to a MAC regardless, for actual computing, as you said.

RE: Why Use Either?, posted on October 31, 2009 at 15:51:26
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Joined: September 27, 2004
 You ask "Here is a question: Are these NAS devices expandable with your own drives...I have three 1TB drives I used now...can those just be plugged in via USB to a central NAS device."

To be truthful, I don't know. Certainly the contents of your existing drives can be copied to the NAS drives, but whether a NAS can communicate with satelite drive I don't know, but it must be an easilt answerable question by those who know how NASs work. I suspect not, as otherwise the RipNAS expansion boxes whould be an unnecessarily costly way to expand capacity of the main unit.

Best wishes

Peter

PS I would avoid using wireless except for control. It's easy and very low cost to hard wire with Cat 5 cable.

RE: Why Use Either?, posted on October 31, 2009 at 18:54:20
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Yes, I actually don't do wireless. Im hard wired currently. And even when we want to go online in the living room with a notebook we used a 25 ft cable hidden behind the couch.

I did check out RipNAS and it would seem that they allow you to expand storage capacity, but with their own drives, after all, they want to stay in business.

However, I think Linksys and a few others allow you to slave drives via USB. I think this is the way to go.

I do like the fact that RipNAS does not hog wattage.

RE: Why Use Either?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 06:00:38
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Yes, the RipNAS requires a second box with the extra drives if you need more than 2 x 500 GB storage. I think this is because the majority of users will find this ample storage for their needs, it keeps the size of the box down and minimises mechanical noise - and it looks acceptable on your equipment rack.

If you know you'll need much more storage you could look at the AVA RS5. It's much bigger (and uglier!), has more drive bays, but uses noisier standard-size drives (RipNAS uses quieter laptop drives). If you can keep it in another room, the RS5 may be worth considering. Apart from that, it seems to work in a similar way to RipNAS, although the latter is optimised for just audio use.

Peter

RE: Why Use Either?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 07:16:52
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Interesting.

Yes, I would definitely need more storage.

My other concern would be is that really don't have another room to put into to except the room with my main computer which is making enough noise as it is.

But the AVA looks very interesting indeed.

RE: Why Use Either?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 00:19:45
andy19191
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Location: Europe
Joined: June 26, 2008
 I used a NAS to run a few services such as SB, repository servers and the like for a couple of years and found installation and maintenance a significant drain on my time because of the cut down OS. Last week, when faced with yet another few hours installing software and, possibly, having to disassemble the thing, I accepted defeat and bought what I should have bought in the first place: a low power "proper" computer running a standard OS. Installation and maintenance is now standard and the NAS has reverted to being rather expensive storage.

There is no doubt that some people enjoy playing with their computers and so my comments do not apply if this describes you. If you want a feel for some of the difficulties experienced by people running SB on NAS boxes go and browse the relevant SB forums. At the moment a fair few people are getting upset because they need to run the current version of the SB software because it is the only version that supports some of the new hardware/services but it is broken/not available for many NAS platforms.
RE: Why Use Either?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 07:13:18
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Thanks for the heads up. Using a SB with an NAS set is not without concern for me.

Ultimately, a notebook in the corner of the room running XP is the simplest and cheapest thing I can do.

I guess the dream of not being tied to a computer is not that simple unless you buy a very expensive Olive, Soolos, or some other high end stan alone system.

RE: Why Use Either?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 12:33:09
andy19191
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Location: Europe
Joined: June 26, 2008
 > Ultimately, a notebook in the corner of the room running XP is the simplest and cheapest thing I
> can do.

I tried using a laptop as media controller and it was a failure. Within days I had reverted to using multiple zappers because having a laptop within easy reach was too awkward as I moved around the living area. Had I not got used to using remotes, getting up everytime to make a change would not have been a problem. Similarly, if there was only one seat (e.g. an audiophile shrine) then it probably would not have been an issue.

> I guess the dream of not being tied to a computer is not that simple unless you buy a very
> expensive Olive, Soolos, or some other high end stan alone system.

These are simply low power, fanless, cheap processors in a box running Linux (usually). Since you can now buy a low power, fanless, cheap PC that is quick enough to run standard OSs you can do more than these devices. Perhaps the most bloated flavours of Windows will not run particularly well but it is an option. Linux is likely to be a better choice unless there is something preventing its use (e.g. lots of PC games).
RE: Why Use Either?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 15:59:43
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 I may opt for Linux. If I do buy a $300 laptop, it would be for the sole purpose of running my server, so gaming and other applications would not be an issue. And certainly there is Squeeze Server for Linux.

RE: Why use either?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 06:53:50
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2539
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 You have well answered the question I've been pondering. What I want is 'NAS functionality' but in a form that doesn't involve questionable performance or me having to become a Linux guru to operate. NAS boxes appear good until I read their forums and look at the customer feedback at Egghead or BestBuy. The concept seems good but the implementations suck.

Even the simplest seem to have gotchas. For instance I found a little thing from Seagate that allows you to plug in three portable drives and use them on the network. Perfect. Until I read the customer feedback and discover that you have to subscribe to some wretched on-line service even to use it locally.

Others have suggested just using an old computer but the only one I'm not currently using is actually too old so I'm going to be buying something new. I looked last weekend and I can get small hp desktops at the store for ~250, that seems like a good bet to me especially since I may want to use a squeezebox someday.

Rick

RE: Why use either?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 12:17:55
andy19191
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Location: Europe
Joined: June 26, 2008
 > I looked last weekend and I can get small hp desktops at the store for ~250, that seems like a
> good bet to me especially since I may want to use a squeezebox someday.

I would also recommend a small fanless computer as a solution to a range of peoples requirements in preference to a NAS box. But, as always, some peoples needs are best served by NAS boxes and some peoples by big noisy PCs.

RE: Why use either?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 12:46:43
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2539
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 I agree, fanless would be an advantage all else being equal.

Rick

My NAS saga, posted on November 2, 2009 at 09:19:30
Tony Lauck
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Posts: 3065
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since: February 24, 2009
 "I agree, fanless would be an advantage all else being equal."

Perhaps, perhaps not. Here's my (recent) saga with a NAS.

I got sick and tired of my disk drives overheating because there were too many in one PC. Also, two drives that are mirrored doen't really protect you if they are both in the same box, as a power supply fault can trash both drives. Hence, the desire to move one of these drives into another box. Unfortunately, my "old computer" didn't have a SATA connector, so I obtained a new PCI card that supported both the old parallel cables and two SATA connectors. That way I could expand the box beyond the 300 GB parallel drives I was using. Unfortunately, not all PCI's are equal, and the PCI controller did not work in the old (1998 vintage) Pentium. In short, this machine was obsolete. I continue to use it, but only for a web server and file server for clients and others to access across the Internet.

Thus the need for a NAS box. I got a Linus based box, a Thecus N5500, and had no trouble getting all my files (from my three PCs) backed up onto it and keeping them backed up. No problem either with running a RAID 1 (mirror) or migrating the RAID to Raid 5, with three drives. However, when it came to the optional services, such as the web server and FTP server, the limitations of the closed box became apparent. Presumably the same issue would apply for a streaming media server. This is add-on software, and it hasn't gotten the attention the core functionality has, namely disk management, RAID management, file system and file access protocols. (For example, the FTP server doesn't have the ability to run in passive mode or specify passive port range, as would be needed to run an FTP server that is accessible from the global Internet via a NAT router.) These limitations come from the built in user interface on the Linux software, rather than the underlying software. If I were a Linux Guru then I would have installed unsupported SSH add-on software, but this would break the warranty and allow me to get into all kinds of problems which I don't care to take on with a machine that stores backup copies of my important data.

There is a big advantage to a closed box, however, and that the web management interface. This enables the machine to be put in a closet and forgotten except when it has to be managed, at which point an ordinary web browser can be used for most tasks. (One can even turn the machine off this way and turn it back on via a Wake on LAN magic packet.) My original idea was to put the NAS under my desk where it would be out of sight. Unfortunately, the very feature that I liked, keeping the disks nice and cool, was incompatible with that approach. The noise was just too loud. Hence the closet. I had all the necessary power and Ethernet cords, so this was a zero cost solution to the noise problem. (The doors of the closet had a bit of a gap at the bottom, which let some noise out, but that was solved by judicious use of two pillows. I also had to move a bunch of shoes around so they wouldn't kick the NAS box.)

I tested my audio software and it runs off of the NAS almost as well as off a local disk, even when running through a 100 Mbps Ethernet switch. I have a 1 gig Ethernet card for my audio PC and have verified that file access from the NAS is within 10% of the speed of a local disk for reads when connected directly. (Writes are slower, probably because of the software RAID in the box.) Next item to get is a Gigabit Ethernet hub, which I am told can be had for $31 today. :-)


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: My NAS saga, posted on November 3, 2009 at 04:19:15
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Saga - well you said it, Tony! I wonder why more people don't make life easy on themselves by using a NAS with built-in CD drive and audio software, such as RipNAS or AVA?

What a load of hassle and possibly expense they would save themselves. OK, these are not cheap, but they work from the box, do not need a computer or monitor, can be entirely hard-wired (apart from remote control), are near silent (at least the RipNAS as it uses laptop drives and no fan), use industry-leading software and hardware specifically chosen for the sole job of ripping, tagging and delivering music - and they look good enough to put on your equipment rack. No hassle, 100% success with pressed CDs (and nearly so with CD-Rs), twin 500 MB drives (expandable to 2 x 3.5 TB) and the RipNAS will even quietly back up your PCs files DAILY without prompting if it's connected to your network.

Peter

RE: My NAS saga, posted on November 3, 2009 at 05:31:12
Tony Lauck
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Posts: 3065
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since: February 24, 2009
 My concerns center around the Terrabytes of files that I have. If I had fewer or smaller files then I would not have felt the need to get a server. In addition, because I know that computer disks and computers crash and lose data, I am not content with installing equipment and believing the manufacturer's marketing claims, no matter what company is involved. Consequently, when I get a new piece of equipment my first goal is to "break" it, that is to take the device to the outer limits of its possible performance and see what happens. So, in the case of a RAID system that supposedly allows for hot-swap of the disk drives, these tests include pulling disks while the file system is hot and running and watching how the actual situation plays out. (I did this with the better part of a Terrabyte of test data, i.e. an extra copy of some of my files.)

I do not believe the situation would have been fundamentally different, had I used a RIPnas, had I been able to fit my data on it comfortably. I would have gone through a similar set of qualifications and would have run into a similar (albeit different in detail) set of difficulties. Perhaps they would have been less, because they would relate to the underlying Windows XP operating system with which I am quite familiar, rather than the Linux system in my NAS. However, I would have been just as frustrated that I had to find a slow and inconvenient process to do what I wanted, when I knew perfectly well that there was a direct way to get the job done, from running a server machine that is XP based.

FWIW, the Apple guys have an even more perilous situation if they use a DROBO to store their files "reliably". This device does all manner of automatic recovery hidden from the user, with the result that data gets lost, as can be seen by reading the product forums. I wish people luck who use these NAS systems and who are clueless about system management. They will need it. And if they want not to lose all of their data they will need to keep backups. Multiple backups.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: My NAS saga, posted on November 3, 2009 at 09:11:17
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Tony - I can't really understand why you try to break things rather than use them in the way they were designed to be used! Do you do the same with your car purchases? Test them to the limit around a race track and dismantle them to check they are build to withstand any test - I hope not.

OK, leg pull over. Why not just take care of your NAS, use it solely for music, never hot-switch drives and back up once in a while to a cheap external drive (or 2) that you can store away safely in another building? I'm intrigued as to why you have so much music on disc that you're unlikely ever to be able to listen to it all in your lifetime! Even my modest collection of 400 CDs occupies only 20% of my 2 x 500 GB NAS using FLAC. I could store nearly 1500 CDs without running out of space - and everything is duplicated. With your collection of apparently many thousand CDs, one wonders, well one wonders!

Why does it concern you what operating system your music NAS uses? As far as I'm concerned, as long as it works as I want, then that's it - I don't care. I don't think you'll find any way of ripping CDs more quickly than the RipNAS. Post a new CD in the slot (no need to have a computer connected) and in 4 or 5 munutes, after it is ejected, post in the next one. All the tagging is done from 4 databases and although some CDs' data is rubbish, you can either re-tag, or more simply rename the folders and arrange as you wish for search purposes using a network-connected computer. The ripping log reporting the success or otherwise of your ripping session is also available from a connected computer. It's such a doddle, I wonder why everyone gets so invloved in all the problems associated with "computer" audio. The fact that this forum is the most active (apart from possibly the snake oil lubricated Cables forum) suggests there are more problems, difficulties and complications with computer audio than any other aspect. I'm all for a simple life, specially if it's also gives the best results! That'll generate a few raised eyebrows!

Peter

Simple things for simple people..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 10:11:31
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2539
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 And they are all quite content with their iplods and boose speakers. Style, acceptance, songs, acceptance, trendy, acceptance...

Audiophiles aren't mainstream anymore, but we sort of were pre-TV. Probably the majority of folks still interested in fiddling with this stuff enough to frequent these sort of forums prefer solutions that they can, well, fiddle with.

The RipNAS has no appeal to me, for one thing I've got, let's see, at least ten working drives in my home that can play CD's, seven of which can 'RIP' them. I really don't need another. I've got stuff besides music that I need a NAS for. And I think I can do a more suitable, cheaper solution which is good since right now I've more time than money. We all vary which is why we don't drive the same car, try to marry the same people, live in the same house/town/state/country/planet, listen to the same music, drink the same wine... Beyond any shadow of doubt you've hit the bulls-eye on a solution that's right for you. I'm still thrashing about but fully expect to end up with one that's right for me too.

One thing's for sure, if I ever manufacture a product for audiophiles that I think you'd like I'll sure try to sell you one. You are the best 'satisfied customer' that anyone could hope for!

Rick

RE: Simple things for simple people..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 11:00:06
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Joined: September 27, 2004
 "Simple things for simple people..." Yes, simple people are usually happy with simple things, but complex people are only interested in complex things that amuse them. Computers don't amuse me - they are a necesary evil to simplify jobs like doing accounts or designing cars.

Music does amuse me so I'm prepared to get involved. If it was necessary to use a computer to this end and it was simple to do so, I would reluctantly use one. However neither is true. I find to my great satisfaction that I don't need what is conventionally thought of as a computer in my audio system and they are not simple to use for music storage.

"One thing's for sure, if I ever manufacture a product for audiophiles that I think you'd like I'll sure try to sell you one. You are the best 'satisfied customer' that anyone could hope for!"

I look forward to that and yes, once I've found the best equipment to do a job I tend to stick with it. Generally I take satisfaction in researching a purchase and, unless I'be ballsed up my decision, enjoy the purchase for many years. Thus I have a 9 year old CD player that still outperfoms most others (Mark Levinson 390S), 6 year old speakers that are absolutely amazing (Avantgarde Unos), 5 year old excellent Single Ended Triode monoblock amplifiers (Consonance Cyber 845) and recently a brilliant hard-drive music storage device (RipNAS).

You will see that, being simple and appreciating simplicity in audio (to get best performance), my system requires no preamp and requires a minimum of cables. I'm sure I'll still have my RipNAS in 5 years time with no changes in hardware or software - how many people here can expect this with their "Computer" systems?

I will accept that I use one piece of kit that isn't up to my quality expectations, but this was purchased as a short-term necessity with known shortcomings. I use a Sonos to process my hard-drive stored music. Fortunately I think I've identified an ideal upgrade path that will appreciably improve my system - a PS Audio PerfectWave DAC with Network Bridge. A little more research is needed (this product is not yet available and it may soon have rivals), but it does appear to be the best kit to improve my listening pleasure, although I'm open to your considered suggestions - as long as it's simple, like me!

Peter

RE: Simple things for simple people..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 20:04:41
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2539
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 Temporally I probably have you beat as most of my stuff I use daily is pushing twenty. But it still sounds almost good as ever. The almost clause is caused by a little hum creeping in, it's getting to be time to replace some caps. And, I even still have most of my previous generation of stuff going back to the early 70's. Granted some of it is showing it's age, the poor ol' lava lamp can't seem to get it up anymore, it just has a thick red sludge layer at the bottom. But most of it still works fine.

I can't imaging not having a preamp. Maybe I'm just spoiled but I really like having a volume control, and the others come in handy too. But it can be a virtual one, as long as I have the functionality and quality.

Playing CD's is no problem although I'll probably rip some of them. The main drivers are that I want to be able to conveniently hear my LP's, access internet radio and play hi-res material. Computers are the tape recorders and tuners of today. And hopefully tomorrow as I'm powerfully fed up with ephemeral media.

The high interest in computer audio is simply because that it's where audio is happening today, and will likely to be it's final destination along with most other information. All this uncertainty about DACs and sources et al will pass. We're just working out the kinks. It's the first medium we've ever had that has no fundamental constraints on quality, channels, longevity or playing time and can even be easily used for home recording. Look around, movies don't use film, even soccer Moms don't use film. Recording studios don't use tape, and books are starting to not use paper. And I'm not using a teletype to write this to you. (But I do miss the pile of punched tape from my model 19). Digital is the medium of the foreseeable future and 'computers' in some form are our interface to it.

Rick

RE: My NAS saga, posted on November 3, 2009 at 09:48:07
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 3065
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since: February 24, 2009
 Of course I test my cars at high speed. :-) And the brakes, too. At least while they are under warranty. But not often, the idea is to understand how the equipment works, not to wear it out.

As for my NAS, it passed all of my tests except the security ones, which demonstrated that it was absolutely not suitable for direct exposure on the Internet as an external server. Had I decided to use it as a replacement for my present server the result would have been some kind of a disaster, as it would be only a matter of time (probably not long) before some hacker would have taken over the machine behind my back. (My existing FTP and web server come under attacks on a daily basis, as can be seen by inspecting the logs. Most often the attacks come from China or the former Soviet Union, but there are other places as well, e.g. Amsterdam.)

Now that I am satisfied that my NAS can be trusted to store my files and I know what not to do, it sits quietly in my closet and I pay no attention to it. Hopefully, unless I have a problem that I can blame on Seagate or Western Digital (I have had these before on PCs) that will be the end of things. I will be getting a Gigabit Ethernet switch, however, so I can take maximum advantage of its performance capabilities.

Good luck with your NAS. If you need help, I trust you have access to a tech support person with suitable experience. Since I am my own tech support, I consider it essential to become familiar with equipment that I use. It's much like learning how to change the spare tire on a new car. One can practice this in a quiet, level parking lot or garage on a nice day, or one can wait until one gets a flat on a main road on a damp, rainy day and struggle with figuring out the equipment. (Been there, done that, too.)

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: My NAS saga, posted on November 2, 2009 at 10:40:25
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2539
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 Thanks for the info Tony,

I had planned to put the unit in the garage but if I had something with just convection cooling and laptop drives it might be OK in the house.

But I would like to be able to control it, whatever it ends up being, over the LAN. A cheap PC sounds like a good bet to me, I'm not looking for RAID, I intend to do real-time work locally and just put files on it for back-up and sharing and to use it as a music server. If I can get it to do a nightly backup to an external USB drive that would be good. I don't have a clue how I would manage it over the LAN without hauling it in and hooking up some peripherals and so need to look into that. Just shuffling files around shouldn't be a problem.

Rick

RE: My NAS saga, posted on November 2, 2009 at 11:11:15
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 3065
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since: February 24, 2009
 I think it may be possible to use a regular PC the way you want most of the time. You could use some form of remote desktop management for command and control. This should be adequate for most operational functions, but if something is broken or the system has crashed, there won't be any way to see the necessary "blue screen of death".

Even the headless closed systems that are normally managed over a LAN occasionally require physical access to do certain functions such as resetting to factory settings following some kind of a major screwup (e.g. a software crash or a mental crash that forgot the administrator password). But by their special purpose nature (and assuming good engineering) these will be less frequent that a general purpose system which offers more opportunities for user misconfiguration and various exploration of the corners of the product design space, especially the subtle software bugs.

Expect the occasional visit to the garage, though... I keep my NAS in a clothes closet which I visit at least once a day in the morning. :-)

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: Why Use Either?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 05:46:09
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Andy

If you are saying that using a standard NAS connected to a computer is a hassle and has OS limitations, you're probably right. However if you want true simplicity in ripping, storing and delivering your music, a device such as RipNAS or AVA equivalent is MUCH simpler than using a stand-alone computer. You don't need to install any software, worry yourself about OS, or even connect your computer with all it's disadvantages to your audio system.

Peter

RE: Why Use Either?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 12:12:29
andy19191
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Location: Europe
Joined: June 26, 2008
 > If you are saying that using a standard NAS connected to a computer is a hassle and has OS
> limitations, you're probably right.

Using a NAS in a standard way is no more difficult than using your extended NAS in a standard way.

Taking a standard NAS and adding non-standard software such as SB, software repositories, etc... and maintaining them on a cut-down semi-documented, busybox Linux without full system source code takes time and effort. Some enjoy the challenge of that sort of thing and but I don't.
Anyone gone the other way, posted on October 28, 2009 at 10:47:21
LWR
Audiophile

Posts: 35666
Location: The woods
Joined: August 12, 2003
 dropped a Mac and bought a PC?
http://routes61and49.com/index.php?go=home
RE: Anyone gone the other way, posted on October 30, 2009 at 04:24:56
Phelonious Ponk
Audiophile

Posts: 558
Location: NC
Joined: September 3, 2007
 I'm sure someone out there somewhere has started on a Mac, developed into a tweaker and made the Mac to PC switch. I sure someone else, out there somewhere, has switched from a Mac to a PC, lacked the patience to learn slightly different interface, and switched back. But I'd guess it's pretty rare. Ask the guys at your local Best Buy, where they sell both. I have. They say that PC people come in looking for Macs every week. It never goes the other way.

P

RE: Anyone gone the other way, posted on October 29, 2009 at 11:13:41
Dynaudio_Rules
Audiophile

Posts: 5607
Location: Georgia
Joined: April 1, 2005
 No one will admit that...

But I would be willing to bet that a lot of Mac users actually use a PC more for day to day computer related activity....other than music.



Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
RE: Anyone gone the other way, posted on October 29, 2009 at 18:46:14
???
Audiophile

Posts: 536
Joined: June 20, 2008
 I wouldn't use a PC if you paid me. 20 years of forced usage of those wretched machines is way, way more punishment than anyone should have to endure. I'm ecstatic to say that my PC has been broken down, crack addicted, drunk and unemployed for the past 4 years and I have no desire whatsoever to start it up again. In the rare instance that I need PC software, I run it on the Mac.

Ummmmmm Yeah Right, I believe That, posted on November 2, 2009 at 14:31:09
Dynaudio_Rules
Audiophile

Posts: 5607
Location: Georgia
Joined: April 1, 2005
 The drunk..... part at least.



Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 28, 2009 at 06:03:41
Phelonious Ponk
Audiophile

Posts: 558
Location: NC
Joined: September 3, 2007
 Well, you've gotten a lot of feedback from PC users, who seem to hate Macs the way Junior High School nerds hate the cool kids. Pretty silly, really. One comment down there was dead-on: It's not about the hardware. Yes, the Macs I've owned were very quiet (the fan in my MacBook Pro never seems to come on). And yes, the PC platform is much more tweakable if tweaking computers brings you any joy. If it doesn't, that brings us to the point: Macs are about the OS. Period. You can boot up a Mac running OSX, open a dozen programs, leave it hooked up to the internet and let it run for months without locking up, or requiring a re-boot. Nothing that resembles a program - not a virus, or a piece of spyware or even a pop-up, will get on your system without OSX asking for your permission (and your password) to install it. That Mac, running constantly for months, always hooked up to the internet will not get its hard drive filled with junk that will slow it down over time, until it won't get out of its own way. The old iBook I just retired was running nearly as fast as new. I never installed virus protection, never defragged the hard drive, didn't use firewalls, didn't do any maintenance at all. I just used it. Ran a consultancy on it. Ripped to and played my music collection from it. Recorded my guitars on it. Re-touched thousands of photographs with it...

Oh, and it is bit-perfect without installing anything, throwing any virtual switches or working around any built-in problems.

If you want a computer you can simply use like a tool, that will simply do what it is supposed to do without any additional effort on your part, THAT is the reason to get a Mac.

And as an extra benefit, should you have any reason to do so, you can actually run Windows and Windows programs, in a separate window on your Mac, right next to OSX. Running Windows on a Mac...it's kind of like running fussy old pickup truck on an Acura, but you can do it.

P

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 28, 2009 at 10:45:28
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Very enlightening.

My feeling is as follows. The benefits of Apple are clear...more elegant OS, less noisy, no viruses, no need for artery clogging defensive software, ergonomics....etc etc.

I guess why Apple gets attacked is because of pricing, smugness, and and overall "too hip" attitude.

However, I know too many people who made the switch and never looked back.
RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 28, 2009 at 14:56:07
Phelonious Ponk
Audiophile

Posts: 558
Location: NC
Joined: September 3, 2007
 Well, the "too smugness" is real enough, I suppose. But in defense of Mac lovers, especially switchers, if you don't like fooling with computer maintenance, if you've had any of the problems with software and hardware installations, drivers, spyware, viruses, etc. etc. etc. that seem to have plagued generation of Windows, once you switch, and realize that your Mac is just going to do what you ask of it, without any of the above problems, it's nearly impossible not to feel a bit smug.

P

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 28, 2009 at 18:59:44
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 I'll take your word for it. I'm just about over the fence...and I don't mind being smug about something, especially if there is good reason.

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 29, 2009 at 10:55:12
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2539
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 There's not a good reason for smugness not matter what you use.

I know several people who have switched to PC's because of repeated, consistent, expensive hardware failures with their Macs.

I know people who have switched to Canon from Nikon because of frustrations.

I know people who have switched from Nikon to Canon because of frustrations.

I know this is getting tedious. I think the bottom line is you pays your money and takes your chances, clearly either will work, either can have problems and depending upon the sorts of things you are doing and your tastes and the particular model you buy may be just your cup of tea.

Notice I didn't include Fords vs Chevys, we've had murder committed here over that one, so far I don't know of computer users resolving their differences in that manner..

Rick
RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 29, 2009 at 11:08:01
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Good synopsis.

I'll throw in one more...biwiring to single wiring and back!!!!
LOL at biwiring, Good one., posted on October 29, 2009 at 13:52:58
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2539
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 I toggle. I bought a second run of wire to try bi-wiring but have never permanently installed it. When I hook it up, the highs are clearly better. When I get tired of tripping over it and take it out, the highs are better integrated. Can't beat it, I get an improvement with every state change...

Rick

I use PC's all day in my work..., posted on October 27, 2009 at 17:25:23
varkdriver
Audiophile

Posts: 228
Joined: July 28, 2002
 You couldn't give me one to use at home.
"Once on a Mac, you never go back"
Nothing is perfect, but Mac makes life way easier.
Exactly..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:09:02
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 11779
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 I play Sys Admin on the PC all the time - - because I have to and it requires it frequently. That's the last thing I want to do on the computer I use at home for entertainment.

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 27, 2009 at 15:50:04
igotwine@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 9
Location: San Francisco
Joined: November 5, 2007
 Just do it. Like you I have an old computer that takes 10 mins to start up, and the fan kicks up every time I fart. I was really excited to leave that plus all the spyware & virus software behind. So I bought a Mini (this was several months ago) and I will share that I had two problems. Once the screen saver came on the computer would freeze about 40% of the time. Be freeze I mean if the computer was playing music it would continue to play but I could not get the monitor to wake up by touching the keyboard or moving the pointing device. Second, I was not receiving all of my emails thru the apple emailing software. I worked with apple folks on both issues and reinstalled the operating system twice on 2 different Mac Minis. I was never able to fix either issue but I really enjoyed how well everything else worked and how easy it made the whole process of storing and listening to music. I was planning to use it in concert with Netflix too for downloading movies. I never got there as having the Mini lock up every 20 mins while I was listening to the fan on my old computer run while being overrun with the rest of life's obligations was too much. However I was so thrilled with how everything works when it was not in freeze mode that it was very disappointing to have to return the Mini. At the time I planned on returning to apple and I just ordered a macbook a few days ago. Now that I have a little more time on my hands I'm hoping to find a way to address my prior problems if they present themselves again. If it does occur again I really feel like I just need to find the right person who can say you need to check, or uncheck this box, and then everything will work. I think your making the right decision by going with apple. Oh I don't recall the fan ever coming on with my 2.0 Mini processor.

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 29, 2009 at 04:44:14
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 815
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 Provided you have an LCD display you can always switch off the screensaver completely.
If you set the background to black you'll even save energy!

I used a blue&white Mac tower for 12 years without anything ever going wrong.
The only reason I'm not using it anymore is because I was broken into and it got stolen.
My insurance kindly replaced it with a 2.66GHz quad-core MacPro tower.

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 28, 2009 at 12:01:49
???
Audiophile

Posts: 536
Joined: June 20, 2008
 Next time, check the Apple support forums. They're very helpful for folks who don't have much Mac experience. I've been using Macs for 16 years. Never had a problem that couldn't be solved by a few minutes of sleuthing, or a software update to fix a software bug.

As an alternative, if you have an LCD monitor, you could have turned the screensaver off.
RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 27, 2009 at 16:29:48
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Great story.

It opens up an interesting topic. Apple likes to paint themselves as the Hassle Free Computer, but in fact, they do have problems. I know two users whose hardrives crashed, one was brand new.

So I do know that buying an Apple will be a lifestyle change, but it won't be a computing panacea.

The bottom line is that I am guessing there will be more positives then negatives.

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 28, 2009 at 15:04:46
Phelonious Ponk
Audiophile

Posts: 558
Location: NC
Joined: September 3, 2007
 You're absolutely right, they do have problems. But those problems typically have to do with major hardware failures, not day-to-day operation. In 5 years of very hard use, my iBook crashed a hard drive (the people at the Apple Store recovered my files for me...for free) and then finally, at the end of the 5 years, its power supply started getting screwy. That's when I replaced it.

P

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 28, 2009 at 19:01:10
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 To be expected. But one could say that paying a 50% premium for apple hardware should raise expectations.

Reason?, posted on October 27, 2009 at 11:37:54
J.Mac
Audiophile

Posts: 2102
Location: Colorado
Joined: November 6, 2002
 Is the biggest reason for wanting to switch the fan noise? You can easily build or buy a silent or very nearly silent PC. Unless you have gripes with Microsoft and Windows (and really, who doesn't?).

For the Squeezebox consider building or buying a dedicated server, so you don't need to leave your PC running. This might be a small NAS, although I'm not a big proponent of using an NAS for this function. Or it could be a lower power Intel Atom based PC. Either way, small footprint, low power consumption, low heat output, quiet.
RE: Reason?, posted on October 27, 2009 at 11:42:17
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 You hit upon something that is big concern. Access to my music files via the Squeezebox is dependent on my PC being on 24/7. I HAVE thought of buying a small netbook, which is all that is really needed, as my files are on external drives.

Well, besides fan noise Ive had it with anti virus software, constant updates, and the usual stuff.

RE: Reason?, posted on October 27, 2009 at 15:36:46
andy19191
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Location: Europe
Joined: June 26, 2008
 I do not understand the appeal of netbooks. They are too big to put in a jacket pocket and so have to go in a briefcase just like a normal portable but are too small to use comfortably as a computer plus they don't have a cd/dvd drive. What are they for?

But if you put an air cooled single core Atom, a portable 2.5" hard disk and portable DVD drive in a small box for about $300 then I do know what that is for. It is a silent, low power computer you can leave on continually in the living room and is fast enough to run all the applications most people want to use. Put Linux on it and you will have no virus problems. Updates are fact of life on all systems these days if you wish to remain secure. But typing "whatever update" every few weeks has never struck me as much of an issue.
RE: It's called a FIT-PC2, posted on October 27, 2009 at 22:01:19
prpixel
Audiophile

Posts: 230
Location: New Jersey
Joined: May 14, 2005
 I use one as a music server. Fanless, draws 6 watts under load; I leave it on 24/7.

RE: Reason?, posted on October 27, 2009 at 21:28:26
J.Mac
Audiophile

Posts: 2102
Location: Colorado
Joined: November 6, 2002
 > I do not understand the appeal of netbooks. They are too big to put in a
> jacket pocket and so have to go in a briefcase just like a normal
> portable but are too small to use comfortably as a computer plus they
> don't have a cd/dvd drive. What are they for?

Mostly for portable web browsing and email. No, you wouldn't want to use one as a desktop computer replacement. But they're inexpensive, small, lightweight. They don't necessarily need to be carried around in a briefcase or backpack or laptop case, as they're easy to carry. Neoprene sleeves are commonly used as carriers for some degree of protection.

> But if you put an air cooled single core Atom, a portable 2.5" hard
> disk and portable DVD drive in a small box for about $300 then I do
> know what that is for. It is a silent, low power computer you can leave
> on continually in the living room and is fast enough to run all the
> applications most people want to use. Put Linux on it and you will have
> no virus problems. Updates are fact of life on all systems these days
> if you wish to remain secure. But typing "whatever update" every few
> weeks has never struck me as much of an issue.

But for a Squeezebox server, a laptop of any kind has few advantages. Like you say, a small Atom based PC would do the trick for a little less money and be more powerful than most netbooks. The one attraction of using a laptop is that you have an attached screen and the whole thing (PC and screen) takes up very little space. If you're a little frightened by the prospect of running a headless computer, then it's an alternative that doesn't require the space of a computer plus monitor.

I certainly don't want the server sitting in my living room, unless I really have no other place for it. One of the beautiful things about the Squeezebox approach is that the server can be anywhere on your network.
RE: Reason?, posted on October 27, 2009 at 16:26:34
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 You are absolutely right. Maybe I am confusing Netbook with Notebook. We recent bought a Dell for 300 and took it to Asia. Small enough, but not too small to use. Flash drive, wireless etc.

Can you recommend a single core Atom machine?

RE: Reason?, posted on October 28, 2009 at 01:33:39
andy19191
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Location: Europe
Joined: June 26, 2008
 > Can you recommend a single core Atom machine?

A brand? Whatever I bought.

My point was simply that an Atom is a silent processor that is quick enough for what most people want to do. Because it is silent you can have it in the living room and because it is designed to consume very few Watts when idle you can leave it on all the time. It doesn't matter how much expensive sound treatment a conventional PC gets (I have one) if you are sitting reading and it is on the noise will be intrusive.

If you are in the living room you can use the TV as a screen, a picture frame, a laptop, the network to a PC with a screen somewhere else in the house, or whatever.

For input one can use wireless keyboard/mouse, plug in a usb keyboard/mouse when needed, an IR or RF remote, a phone, or whatever.

The box can be very small along the lines of the Fit-PC or bigger to include CD/DVD drive, harddisk and more connections. It may or may not come with full HD graphics chips.

I don't know what is appropriate for your requirements but a small silent general purpose computer that is running all the time in the living room is now a cheap and viable option in a way it wasn't a few years ago without a lot of DIY and programming.
RE: Reason?, posted on October 28, 2009 at 10:42:32
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 actually, what you describe is exactly what I am looking for. the search is on for best performance/price ratio.

RE: Reason?, posted on October 29, 2009 at 05:04:44
Phelonious Ponk
Audiophile

Posts: 558
Location: NC
Joined: September 3, 2007
 A used or refurbished Mac Mini will accomplish all of the above without the usual Windows maintenance issues. Of course most of those issues go away if the PC is not connected to the internet. I can't imagine hobbling any computer with that lack of capability in this day and age, though.

P

RE: Reason?, posted on October 28, 2009 at 17:20:54
andy19191
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Location: Europe
Joined: June 26, 2008
 > the search is on for best performance/price ratio.

Atoms are about price but not really about performance. It is more a question of is it fast enough to do what is needed. Standard PCs are always going to be quicker but they are also going to be noisy. In addition, dual core Atoms normally have fans while single core Atoms normally do not.
RE: Reason?, posted on October 29, 2009 at 08:27:24
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Gotcha. I'm on the hunt.

RE: Reason?, posted on October 28, 2009 at 02:53:31
audioAl
Audiophile

Posts: 921
Location: So. Texas
Joined: December 16, 2007
 Sorry to butt in, Acer makes a decent Atom. I own an Acer desktop which is 8 years old.
Vista Ultimate 32bit/Diamond XS Dac/ Sterovox coaxial line in to Insignia Amp/Cambridge SoundWorks& Infinity RS 1001 Speakers
Congratulations!, posted on October 27, 2009 at 10:36:38
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2539
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 It makes a certain amount of sense to buy an entertainment computer from a toy company and push comes to shove, all that matters is what pleases you. My experience with Apple HW and SW has not been good, but I was trying to use it for work and I'm sure that they're better at play or the company would have folded long ago. Clearly the thing they are best at is marketing. If I get as serious as you seem to be about getting away from MS it will probably be into the arms of Linux. Don't worry about the learning curve, you will be so determined to prove to yourself that your choice was a good one that you will invest whatever effort it takes. However if your only concern is fan noise, you are being silly or capricious. The good news is that audiophiles are licensed to be both and most of us do so freely.

Have fun, Rick

RE: Congratulations!, posted on October 27, 2009 at 11:26:32
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 rick_m wrote:

Clearly the thing they [Apple] are best at is marketing.

This is a little unfair. As you know, way back when (early 1980s), Apple gained a niche market because it was the first to develop an intuitive UI for its OS in a burgeoning personal computer market.

This in turn attracted developers of commercial-grade software for the printing and publishing industries. These were economically significant sectors used to looking to IT (though the acronym came came later) to improve productivity. This from Wiki:
PageMaker was released in July 1985, and relied on Adobe's PostScript page description language. For output, it used the Apple LaserWriter, a PostScript laser printer. PageMaker for the PC was released in 1986, but by then the Mac was already the de facto DTP platform, with Adobe Illustrator (released in 1987) and Adobe Photoshop (released in 1990) completing the suite of graphic design software.


It is hard to over-estimate the importance to publishing of the Postscript 'Page Description Language' (forerunner of PDF). Adobe and others also well understood the need for robust discipline in areas like font technology and made several crucial innovations around that time.

Microsoft's contribution to all this was MS Word. Need one say more? The only typesetters who didn't laugh at it were those who hated it too much. From the type-quality perspective (among others), it is arguably the worst piece of commercial software ever written.

A few niche applications aside, no developer or user in the publishing milieu would go anywhere near a PC until Win NT 3.1 in the mid-1990s and even then for peripheral applications only, not for typesetting/publishing purposes.

The Mac still reigns supreme in publishing because it is still a better tool than the PC for the purpose - not to mention the importance of the data legacy.

I believe similar arguments hold for the movie industry and pro audio but I'm not qualified to say. Apple has, of course, an uncanny knack of shooting itself in the foot - but that's a different matter.

Dave

RE: Congratulations!, posted on October 28, 2009 at 07:11:01
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2539
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 You are right, they did have a lock on both publishing and image processing for a while, I'd sort of forgotten. To this day when I use Photoshop I mutter under my breath at the 'macishness' (Xeroxnishness?) of it which throws me for a loop if I don't use it often enough.

Their toys were used for tools for awhile simply because there was a time when the AppleII hobby computer was the most functional small computer as you didn't have to enter the boot loader with switches and it had expansion slots. Visicalc was the pivotal driver of it's success along with a pent up demand for personal computing beyond programmable calculators. Later, their GUI did put them in a good position for some applications.

I also agree with you that Windows 3.x was the first useful version and I gladly switched to it, but not for the GUI, I don't like GP GUI's, I think they are a big step backward in man/machine communications that we still haven't recovered from as humans evolved beyond pointing and grunting long ago. On the other hand all of us were ready to escape the extended/expanded memory management hell and the printer driver disaster.

I could go on and on because, like many of us, I've both watched and participated in the personal computer game from the very beginning. The punch line is they lost the commercial market to the PC because it never was their focus with the exception of the Lisa. They're ability to brainwash teachers and kids is simply brilliant marketing and the iPlod is an amazingly well done toy that really redefined recorded music distribution. But I wouldn't buy a computer from them...

Rick

RE: Congratulations!, posted on October 28, 2009 at 09:22:14
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 [Macs]did have a lock on both publishing and image processing for a while

They still do on the data prep side. No graphic arts professional would dream of running 'The Holy Trinity' (Quark/InDesign, Photoshop & Illustrator) on anything else for fear of running aground on cross-platform niggles.

If I had the work volume to justify the cost, I'd ditch my PC version of Quark tomorrow. It's OK for 'closed-loop' work but I dare not pass files to a platemaking bureau for post-processing unless it is explicitly equipped to accept PC-generated data. Few are.

My point wasn't (as Bill seems to think I was arguing) that the Mac was ever-perfect or that DTP was the bee's knees from day one. It certainly wasn't but it is indisputable that it was the Mac platform and applications and font and other technologies written for it that, for better or worse (quality-wise it was often for the worse), changed the printing and publishing industries for ever.

None of this, of course, has anything to do with today's tedious Mac vs PC debate. I find that many of those who regularly use both platforms for their living curse both impartially while others display a brand loyalty that spills over from the merely irrational to the fanatical.

Odd, that.

If the OP decides he likes the Mac OS and goes for it, he'll do just fine, I'm sure.

Dave

PS It was Win NT, not Win 3.1 that first got MS's toe in the publishing door. I was involved in trials of sundry print-related products running on Windows for Workgroups: they were an unmitigated disaster. NT 3.1 and, later, 3.5 were a different matter. They undermined the then Unix stranglehold - very fine software but prohibitively priced.

RE: Congratulations!, posted on October 28, 2009 at 16:06:16
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2539
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "curse both impartially"

Sounds good to me. I've had very few non-abusive relationships with computers, and they always seem to have the upper hand. But their attitude does seem to be improving and even though this laptop is running the despised Vista, it actually seems to pretty work. I think most machines nowadays do most things for most users mostly well.

I've never been involved in publishing so may have missed the Mac's forte. Most odd programs I use are for engineering and are either windows native or ported from X-windows. Probably the best machine is the one with the least learning curve so that drives a certain amount of loyalty...

Rick

RE: Congratulations!, posted on October 27, 2009 at 11:54:52
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 704
Location: SF Bay area
Joined: February 6, 2005
 > Microsoft's contribution to all this was MS Word. ...
> From the type-quality perspective (among others), it is arguably
> the worst piece of commercial software ever written.

But then it was designed to be a general purpose word processing program not a page layout program. It did bring WYSIWYG typography to word processors.

In the late 80s and early 90s, Word was quite useful for an author preparing content for a book publisher. The author applied styles in the Word files but did not worry about exact layout. He sent a floppy with the Word files to the publisher who imported the content from the Word files into PageMaker or some other page layout program.


"PageMaker was released in July 1985, and relied on Adobe's PostScript page description language. For output, it used the Apple LaserWriter, a PostScript laser printer."

I used a Mac Plus with a SCSI hard drive and a Laserwriter around 1986-1990 for writing a newsletter for programmers and a book about programming. At the beginning of my experience, PageMaker crashed every couple of minutes. It also made arbitrary changes to layout of existing files without any input from me. The Mac OS was very unstable too. Microsoft Word v 1.08 was by far the most reliable software I used on the Mac until Word v3.0x became available and was stable.

Bill
RE: Congratulations!, posted on October 27, 2009 at 11:06:11
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Your alternate point of view is welcomed, and very valid. I myself used to refer to Apple as the portable music player company that also makes computers.

My father's last computer was a Mac and I never really took to it.

As far as marketing, yes they are very, very clever. But you have to be when you got your ass kicked by a superior business model, and you have 5% of the world market. Their "Think Different" campaign appealed to those wanted not to be in the 95%.

However, I think Apple's products have steadily gotten better. And Im not switching just to avoid fan noise...its the anti virus software, unintuitive file structures, and partly the total loss of credibility on Microsoft's part with Vista.

I have thought about Linux.

RE: Congratulations!, posted on October 27, 2009 at 13:52:49
mäç
Audiophile

Posts: 133
Joined: August 18, 2009
 >> However, I think Apple's products have steadily gotten better.

Yeah, now that they are using the same CPUs and boards that WinTel machines have been using all along.

RE: Congratulations!, posted on October 27, 2009 at 16:23:30
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Ironic, isn't it?

Hardware is not the reason to switch..., posted on October 27, 2009 at 09:08:06
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 852
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
 Hardware flexibility is the main thing PCs have going for them...just find a good power supply at silentpcreview.com and save yourself a lot of money and frustration (and it will be a lot better than any power supply Apple has ever used, I assure you).

The power supply is not hardware?, posted on October 27, 2009 at 10:14:34
Sordidman
Dealer

Posts: 9251
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 Having a hard time balancing that giant chip on your shoulder?





Surrendered to self preservation,
From others who care for themselves.
A blindness that touches perfection,
But hurts just like anything else.
RE: Hardware is not the reason to switch..., posted on October 27, 2009 at 10:02:39
DHT 4 ME
Audiophile

Posts: 532
Location: So Utah
Joined: November 9, 2005
 You obviously have not seen the PS from a Mac Pro or a G5 tower.
The company that makes them is a very very high end supplier. They are almost $400 and waaayyyy beyond any PC box supply. Now a Mac Mini is another story but you said any supply Mac would use.
Bob
www.PlateauLight.com
RE: Hardware is not the reason to switch..., posted on October 27, 2009 at 09:16:44
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 I thought about that. But the power supply its self is not running to hot..i took the side panel off. I think its the processor that is constantly kicking in the fan...I could be wrong.

RE: Hardware is not the reason to switch..., posted on October 27, 2009 at 14:36:00
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 3065
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since: February 24, 2009
 Get yourself Speedfan. [free] You will be able to see various temperatures as well as the CPU fan RPM. Mine speeds up and slows down according to what is going on in the processor. You can see this with cPlay, when it is loading a track into memory and decompressing the FLAC the fan speed goes up a few hundred RPM.

It is certainly the case that things that can be done easily with Apple are easier than with Windows. But there are things that you can do with Windows that you can't do with an Apple without a lot of hassle.

Personally, if I were going to go through the hassle of learning a new OS, it would be a Linux system, that way I wouldn't enrich Jobs or Gates any more...

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: Hardware is not the reason to switch..., posted on October 28, 2009 at 10:12:27
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 4115
Joined: June 1, 2002
 'You can see this with cPlay, when it is loading a track into memory and decompressing the FLAC the fan speed goes up a few hundred RPM.'

Not a good thing. I now have stable current draw (around 20VA) playing files with almost no demand on the cpu, and no fan.

I don't like the sound of cPlay anyway; all 31 versions with different .exe for different cpus.

RE: Hardware is not the reason to switch..., posted on October 27, 2009 at 16:24:49
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Thanks for the reminder. I have considered Speedfan a few times and never pulled the trigger. I will download tonight. Great advice.

What is the downside to Linux...what about programs?

Mac Thoughts, posted on October 27, 2009 at 11:38:16
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 852
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
 Keep in mind that Apple now uses the same processors in Macs that PCs are using (although you have basically zero choice about which processor your're going to get when you buy a Mac).

That being said...the processor is not the thing that is controlling your power supply fan. That is probably controlled by the power supply itself, in response to the load that is being placed on it by the components in the computer. I think a new power supply would be a good idea.

On Macs...I'm an old-time Mac user, going back to 1984 (I still have my original Mac, somewhere), and have had a long career of creating software for it. I think it is a great computer to this day, although its best days (relative to PCs, at least) were in the 1980s, where it so clearly outshone the PC platform (based entirely on the OS...they've never really done much of interest with Macs, hardware-wise, since the original, IMHO...and now they are basically building PCs with a different OS installed on the hard drive).

I use both PCs and Macs now and, honestly, I find I can usually get my job done a bit easier with PCs. And, at home, my spare computer time is spent either listening to music (usually while surfing the net) or playing games...and for this, there is no question: a Mac is an inferior product. This pains me to say, because I've written quite a few games for the Mac (including one that Mac Addict named as one of the top 10 Mac games of all time), but the facts are simple...the hardware is a compromise (buy a "cheap" Mac and get something no PC user would pay more than $500 for, or pay an outrageous sum of money for something a PC user could build for less than half the cost). I still recommend Macs to certain people (my Mom and grandmother-in-law have one), but I also recommend PCs (to co-workers who like to play games and need a high-performance computer that won't cause them to miss a mortgage payment).

Does music sound better on a Mac? Some people will swear that it does...and they usually are Mac owners, trying to justify what they paid for well-below-the-state-of-the-art hardware.

RE: Mac Thoughts, posted on October 27, 2009 at 15:01:41
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 11779
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 As you know, I use Macs and PC's and only recently switched to Mac.

You can itemize the pluses and minuses and the PC will always come out on top. But I don't buy a computer - or use one in this fashion.

I buy the entire system and user experience. After being on PC's since the 1980's (and still using them), I can honestly say that I am truly much more impressed and satisfied with the Mac.

But to each his own and it's nice to have a choice.

RE: Mac Thoughts, posted on October 27, 2009 at 11:46:37
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Yes, Intel is now ubiquitous. Good thing I bought the stock.

Many have recommended a new PS. I may go that route even if I get a MAC.

Trust me, the cost associated with Macs pains me too. I have never been impressed by the plastic boxes they make. Elegant? Yes. Visually innovative. For certain. But their keyboards and mouses seem like they will wear out quickly.

Your perspective in interesting. Bill Gates won the battle by betting on software, and Steve Jobs made one of top 10 horrendous business decisions of the 20th century by betting on hardware.

RE: Mac Thoughts, posted on October 28, 2009 at 13:31:10
???
Audiophile

Posts: 536
Joined: June 20, 2008
 "But their keyboards and mouses seem like they will wear out quickly."

I've never replaced a mouse. I replaced one keyboard that I spilled liquid into. Otherwise, nothing in 15+ years of using Macs. I have 14 and 15 year old original equipment Macs (Power Mac 7100 and 8500) that still work perfectly.

RE: Mac Thoughts, posted on October 28, 2009 at 12:31:00
???
Audiophile

Posts: 536
Joined: June 20, 2008
 "But their keyboards and mouses seem like they will wear out quickly."

I've never replaced a mouse. I replaced one keyboard that I spilled liquid into. Otherwise, nothing in 15+ years of using Macs. I have 14 and 15 year old original equipment Macs (Power Mac 7100 and 8500) that still work perfectly.

RE: Mac Thoughts, posted on October 28, 2009 at 12:34:14
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 That is very cool.

I guess I shouldn't use my dad as example. He used to get cigarette ash, coffee, and beer all over his shit.

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 27, 2009 at 08:38:51
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 thanks for the reply. after all the posts that outline a relatively easy migration, I think I have decided to make the switch. I suspect my experience will be similar to your.s

You could always get a new power supply for your PC, posted on October 27, 2009 at 06:31:24
Dynaudio_Rules
Audiophile

Posts: 5607
Location: Georgia
Joined: April 1, 2005
 PC noise is nothing a new power supply and a can of air won't fix.

But if you are looking for an excuse [nothing wrong with that...] Then go ahead and get a MacMini and max it out with RAM....cause its slow as hell until you get up past 2 giggs. Well slow is a relative term and I can't comment on others, but compared to my Windows 7 PC, and my Linux Box, my Mac is still the slowest. Anyways the only issues I see are software players [if you will use it for direct playback] because there are few to none...basically you are stuck with iTunes. Which means you will need to make your whole library iTunes friendly or else. So lack of player choice and converting are the only real issues imo. Other than that, it sounds good, its quiet, its small, its a Mac [you get to proudly tell people you have one].

Have fun!



Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
RE: You could always get a new power supply for your PC, posted on October 27, 2009 at 12:01:10
AstroD
Audiophile

Posts: 80
Location: So Cal
Joined: October 13, 2003
 Yes, the software choices with the Mac and lossless formats like FLAC are pretty sad. You could go with WAV or AIFF, but metadata is very nice to have for managing the library independant of iTunes (moving the library to a different drive, etc). That's partly why I switched to a PC for the HTPC / music server. Another reason was Bluray.
RE: You could always get a new power supply for your PC, posted on October 27, 2009 at 09:09:10
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Thanks! Funny, I just bought a few cans of air. Its helped a little.

I hear you on the software, and I DONT love iTunes.

However, I am planning on using it with a Squeezebox.

Pain, well there is no pain at all..., posted on October 27, 2009 at 06:24:26
Gordon Rankin
Manufacturer

Posts: 2247
Joined: June 9, 2000
 Gang,

Really it's a simple switch, there are tools to convert audio files to any format.

Everything is included in the box, about 7-10 minutes from unpacking to playing music.

Thanks
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin
RE: Pain, well there is no pain at all..., posted on October 27, 2009 at 09:07:17
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Thanks Gordon. I think the decision is made. The only painful part is the expense involved. But once its done its done.

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 27, 2009 at 01:51:05
andy19191
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Location: Europe
Joined: June 26, 2008
 It depends what you want to do.

A single core Intel Atom in a small box can be fanless, half the price of a Mac and use your current Windows OS. It is fast enough for what most people want but it may be wise to check.

Macs have their advantages and disadvantages. I started using a Mac when OSX came out and found the interface irritating and clumsy particularly the one button mouse business. However, you have the option to dump the eye candy, connect a 3 button mouse and install X Windows programs. Of course, this reflects my background and what I want to do on the box. Yours will be different.
RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 27, 2009 at 09:01:29
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 You are right on the money. BTW, I have seen Leopard/Snow Leopard and it seems pretty intuitive.

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 26, 2009 at 23:16:39
Archimago
Audiophile

Posts: 63
Joined: January 18, 2002
 Quite painless really though gets more expensive when you consider the need to buy equivalent software (Office, Photoshop in my case).

Wondering is it just a quiet computer you want? These days, you can certainly put together PC's that are quiet/silent for less cost than price of a Mac... A Mac is essentially a PC with the capability to run OS X these days as they're all Intel based and there's nothing all that special about the motherboard or other hardware. There's of course a "pride of ownership" factor as well for those who care about such things...

Disclosure: At home have a MacBook (wife's), MacBook Pro, home-built quad core PC, Windows Home Server (for Squeezebox, Web server, FTP server, Media & NAS server), quiet HTPC.
RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 27, 2009 at 08:57:18
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 You are spot on. Trust me, I have considered the expense, and its double the layout over a Wintel machine. Between software and the built in premium you pay for an Apple.

Quietness is one element, but to be free from the tyranny of anti virus programs, daily updates, and 10 minute start ups and shut downs would be great.

Not totally painless but pretty easy..., posted on October 26, 2009 at 21:21:50
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 11779
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 My honest assessment....

I've been using PC's since MS-DOS and haven't completely switched to Mac because I need both. The Mac is pretty intuitive but a little different so if you have PC mentality ingrained on the brain, it's not quite the same.

You may struggle for a while fighting to let go of old PC habits. It's hard to use a computer that is so easy to use when you're not expecting it to be so simple. Make sense? Approach it with an open mind and don't make it complicated, 'cuz it's not. ;-)

Once you've been on the Mac for a brief while, maybe a month or so, you'll wonder why you didn't switch 10 years ago! I've been in "the biz" for a few decades and I can honestly say, it's a beautiful thing!
RE: Not totally painless but pretty easy..., posted on October 27, 2009 at 08:45:37
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 I suspect there will some minor frustration, but it will be worth it in the end. 20 years of Wintel habits might take a small amount of time to get weaned off.

As Painless as..., posted on October 26, 2009 at 21:03:02
DHT 4 ME
Audiophile

Posts: 532
Location: So Utah
Joined: November 9, 2005
 going to your local MAC store and playing with it. Ask questions while there
it's free advice from the people who use them.
Bob
www.PlateauLight.com
RE: As Painless as..., posted on October 27, 2009 at 08:44:15
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 I've gone a few times to fiddle. I think the time has come.

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 26, 2009 at 20:06:11
jbufka2
Audiophile

Posts: 320
Location: Michigan
Joined: February 4, 2003
 I switched in 2006 and have never looked back. It was a little, and I mean little, difficult learning the way MAC works at first but I work with a long time MAC user who helped me get started. I recently added a MacBook to my house and love it to. The Apple store is a great place to get started if you have one near your house. Otherwise, I hope you have access to a MAC head to get you going in the right direction out of the starting gate. If all else fails, you could read the manual and use the help guide. As an old-timer I never bother with them but some probably find it helpful. Good luck...once you go MAC, you'll never go back.

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 27, 2009 at 08:40:07
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 The Apple Store it is. I'm pretty computer literate, but its been a good 20 years on the Wintel platform, so a little trepidation is understandable.

Thanks for the insight.

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 29, 2009 at 05:15:44
Doublej
Audiophile

Posts: 27
Location: Boston
Joined: January 11, 2009
 Windows smokes OSX when it comes to navigation. The navigation bar being pinned to the top of the screen is a very outdated concept.

OSX smokes Windows when it comes to solidity of the OS.

On vendor supplied applications it's a toss up.

Apple Genius bar is genius, the elevator that opens on every floor just plain stupid (and un green)

It takes some time to get used to the differences but it sounds like you have already convinced yourself so take the plunge. Worst case is you spend another $150 to put Windows 7 on it.

I use both and praise and curse them equally.

RE: Want to Switch to a MAC...How Painless Is It?, posted on October 29, 2009 at 08:34:02
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 I agree 100% on all points.

That top pinned nav bar is unappealing.

I hesitated switching for 10 agony filled years, cursing Bill Gates and his ancestors, posted on October 26, 2009 at 18:23:59
LWR
Audiophile

Posts: 35666
Location: The woods
Joined: August 12, 2003
 Finally I made the switch in 2007. One thing I did when I switched, I hired an Apple Consultant (list available from Apple) to come to my house and introduce me to a Mac system when I got the Mac home and to set up all the things that needed setting up and he transferred all my data to the Mac. I hired him for 2 hours at 80 an hour. It saved me, I am sure, countless hours of confusion, learning curves, calling tech help and cursing Steve Jobs and his ancestors as well. Once he had showed me the basics I would say the rest all fell into place rather fast and now I still wonder why I waited so long...
It is not a huge changeover. Logic prevails. I also bought Apple Care (250 for 3 years) which gives unlimited free support for those 3 years. It was worth it.
It plays well with SB, been running them together gor 18 months...

http://routes61and49.com/index.php?go=home
RE: I hesitated switching for 10 agony filled years, cursing Bill Gates and his ancestors, posted on October 27, 2009 at 08:42:51
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 After all the posts here, I've decided to migrate. I suspect my experience will be similar to yours.

RE: I hesitated switching for 10 agony filled years, cursing Bill Gates and his ancestors, posted on October 26, 2009 at 18:38:27
artcheng@netvigator.com
Audiophile

Posts: 312
Joined: November 14, 2003
 OSX is very intuitive. Go for it!

And dump the Mac Mouse, posted on October 27, 2009 at 06:01:04
LWR
Audiophile

Posts: 35666
Location: The woods
Joined: August 12, 2003
 which I could not get used to. I use a logitech and have all the same functions as it has on a PC....
http://routes61and49.com/index.php?go=home

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