Computer Audio Asylum

Music servers and other computer based digital audio technologies.

Return to Computer Audio Asylum

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Warmth and ASIO

139.68.134.1
Posted on December 10, 2008 at 18:36:56
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Suddenly, old recordings that I remember as being on the harsh side of things are now sounding warmer than I remember.

I have narrowed it down to 3 things.

1.It could be that my amp and new crossover jumpers have burned in a bit, but I have been running them a few weeks which is a bit longer than I have experienced with this gear before.

2. ASIO in winamp. I recently reinstalled winamp with the cue player plugin. Finally got it working and Otochan's ASIO 67 too. It is stable and I had absolutely no luck with the cue player on this audio only rig, but I figured it out:

3. SP2. To get the cue player to work I HAD to install XP SP-2. It simply wouldn't work with XP SP-1.

Any thoughts on what is the most likely reason?

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 10, 2008 at 19:38:15
Squonk
Audiophile

Posts: 1886
Location: Indiana
Joined: August 17, 2005
 It's ASIO. I noticed the same thing when I compared it to DS.




 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 10, 2008 at 20:20:06
DBB
Audiophile

Posts: 641
Location: NYC, USA
Joined: November 11, 2004
 In my setup using JRiver DS is smoother than ASIO. That seems to be the minority experience.

 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 10, 2008 at 20:34:03
Squonk
Audiophile

Posts: 1886
Location: Indiana
Joined: August 17, 2005
 In my setup, ASIO is superior. Sorry.




 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 10, 2008 at 20:41:40
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Squonk,

I might be wrong here but aren't you using winamp also?

Do the Otochan ASIO versions work for Jriver??

 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 10, 2008 at 20:51:55
Squonk
Audiophile

Posts: 1886
Location: Indiana
Joined: August 17, 2005
 Yes, I use WinAmp. Only Otochan plugins I know of are for WinAmp and Foobar.




 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 10, 2008 at 22:02:08
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 That might explain DBB's results. As I understand it, the ASIO drivers can have a big impact on the sound.

 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 11, 2008 at 04:58:18
GCrouser@hvc.rr.com
Audiophile

Posts: 303
Location: NY
Joined: January 18, 2006
 Bill Gates is an audiophile & has now improved your sound...duh!

I recently noticed that Winamp w/Otochan's ASIO & J River with it's ASIO both seemed smoother sounding than Foobar w KS. I converted to J River about a month ago.

Greg

 

What about EXE ASIO - still no luck? N/T, posted on December 11, 2008 at 06:17:32
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 N/T

 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 11, 2008 at 06:17:37
aljordan
Audiophile

Posts: 1252
Location: Southern Maine
Joined: November 4, 2003
 I think Winamp's Asio sounds warmer than Foobar's Asio. I liked the sound of Winamp better than Foobar, but at the time I was playing with it I was never able to get Winamp's Asio extremely stable with the Lynx card though.

Alan

 

ASIO Ignorance, posted on December 11, 2008 at 10:33:20
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 1169
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
 I highly doubt it has anything to do with ASIO, which is merely a protocol for moving digital audio data (without timing information). ASIO got the reputation as somehow "sounding" better than other protocols because of the problems with the KernalMixer in Windows XP. This problem was fixed in Windows Vista and, lo and behold, ASIO now sounds the same as DirectSound which sounds the same as KernalStreaming.

It amazes me how once an idea gets out there ("ASIO sounds better than DirectSound!!!") it propagates with a ridiculous snowball-effect wherein a large group of people start attributing everything they are hearing in their system to it.

The "black magic" of the Otachan versions of plug-ins is equally amazing: if you translate his developer notes from Japanese, you can see that most of his changes were in the User Interface and error-handling code, yet there are many, many posts here that discuss the vast differences between these versions of his plug ins. Highly amusing!

 

RE: ASIO Ignorance INDEED, posted on December 11, 2008 at 10:48:08
Dynaudio_Rules
 You are absolutely correct.

I had my wife read the different versions of Otachans ASIO plugin...each and every one has NOTHING, I repeat absolutely nothing to do with any type of base code change. Version bumbs are just adding user features.

In short there is only ONE Otachan ASIO plugin.

This is know as the GREAT placebo affect!

Maybe the added warmth is due to increasing age and hearing loss



Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry

 

Code changes are not necessary for different builds to sound VASTLY different., posted on December 11, 2008 at 12:32:13
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 Every C++ compiler optimization setting affects sound - and significantly, at that. In my SSSE3 builds, many settings are different from what Otachan had - just because it sounds better. Not to mention SSSE3 version (utilizing multimedia instructions specific to newer CPUs) sounds much better than SSE2, which is the last one Otachan uploaded.

 

RE: Code changes are not necessary for different builds to sound VASTLY different., posted on December 11, 2008 at 12:34:57
Dynaudio_Rules
 So for example if Otachan added gapless playback functionality it would change the sound?

Or if he fixed an error that caused some sessions to crash when upsampling was selected it would change the sound?


Ok

Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry

 

It's almost funny., posted on December 11, 2008 at 12:42:16
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 You see, unlike some other people that share the same views, you have GOOD system, that would allow you to hear the differences - if you let it to.

Of course, ASIO is not applicable in your configuration (USB out to DAC) - ASIO4ALL just doesn't sound good enough. Regarding Otachan plugin - see my response to DR below.

 

Most likely, the answer is "NO" to both. Here's what really changes sound:, posted on December 11, 2008 at 12:46:47
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006



N/T

 

RE: Most likely, the answer is "NO" to both. Here's what really changes sound:, posted on December 11, 2008 at 13:03:16
Dynaudio_Rules
 Cool nice tool!

Well from what was read most all if not all of the changes in each version of Otachans ASIO were fixes to this bugs and additions like gapless playback etc.




Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry

 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 11, 2008 at 13:28:22
DBB
Audiophile

Posts: 641
Location: NYC, USA
Joined: November 11, 2004
 That might be it. The ASIO for me in JRiver has the most clarity and resolution, but it is often slightly harsh. Using Direct Sound most of the time works out well b/c my favorite plugin does not work in ASIO anyway. It might also have something to do with the combination of the Lynx card which is already very detailed and the JRiver ASIO drivers. I know some have complained that the Lynx cards are too detailed.

 

RE: Code changes are not necessary for different builds to sound VASTLY different., posted on December 11, 2008 at 13:52:31
John Swenson
Audiophile

Posts: 2422
Location: No. California
Joined: October 13, 2002
 I've been thinking aslong these lines as well. One possibility that could have major impact on noise (EMI and power supply) is what stays in cache durring operation. If the main loop fits entirely in the processor cache then DRAM access goes way down, this is definately going affect noise levels in the PC

Optimization levels can deffinately effect what is going to fit in cache and how branches out of cache are handled. The SSE stuff is another example, if they are used then the code becomes much smaller which gives a much higher probability of code staying in cache.

There are probably other aspects as well, but this at least I think has a good probability of being audible.

Of course the better you make the computer the more obvious such things are going to be. Radically cutting down on processes, whats going on in the computer, very low noise power supplies etc make it more obvious. (they cut down on the general grunge level).

This also might be an interesting explanation for differences heard in low end VS high end processors. A low end slow very low power system might have a processer with a small cache which might negate some of the advantages of such a system. A more powerful processor with a larger cache might actually sound better if the cache is big enough to fit everything in cache.

This brings up a whole new range of study and hardware optimization. Low power, slow peocessors, but with tons of cache and plenty of dedicated special hardware instructions and code optimized to use them. Hmmmm.

John S.

 

My experience with ASIO, posted on December 11, 2008 at 13:53:22
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 1169
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
 I used to have Windows XP, of course, and ASIO (and KernalStreaming...and probably any other method to bypass the kmixer that might be out there) sounded better than using DirectSound. So, if you are still using XP, I highly recommend using ASIO or KernalStraming (or whatever else might be out there)...I guess the main purpose of my post was to enlighten people about ASIO being nothing special really...it is just a way of getting the data from Foobar2000 to the driver that will end up sending the audio data to some hardware (or I/O interface).

ASIO4All is just a "middle man" that fools audio programs (like Foobar2000) into thinking that you have a hardware driver that supports ASIO. The end result still gets routed to DirectSound, I believe (because if you are using ASIO4All you don't have a hardware driver that can support ASIO data input, otherwise you wouldn't need ASIO4All, would you?).

In Vista, however, I hear no differences between ASIO and DirectSound, even on my very sensitive high-end system. That is not enough for me, however, so I also conducted a few blind tests with my wife (who, admittedly, has better ears than I do). She can't hear any differences either.

So there isn't anything special or magical about ASIO. The problem is entirely with kmixer in XP. If you are using XP, use ASIO or KernalStreaming instead of DirectSound! Or get Vista. :-)

Given that ASIO does not require any special data manipulation, the idea about a special compiler version helping is incorrect. Compiler versions (and hardware support for various optional instruction sets) might make a difference on a computationally expensive plug-in, like a resampler, but in an ASIO layer there probably isn't a single line of code that uses data in the format that these compiler options use.

 

We're not talking about resamplers here :-), posted on December 11, 2008 at 13:56:35
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 1169
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
 SSE3 and compiler versions may affect plug-ins that are computationally expensive (not with their sound, by the way, but rather with how much time they are taking to perform their task, which I suppose might free up some system resources for another part of the audio chain on your computer, most likely being the driver that is sending the data to the hardware).

ASIO plug-ins are not doing anything like that. They are probably not even touching the data in a format that some special compiler extension uses.

 

So which sounds better, Vista or xp with AISO ?, posted on December 11, 2008 at 14:27:24
DBB
Audiophile

Posts: 641
Location: NYC, USA
Joined: November 11, 2004
 Getting back to basics, does Vista sound better?

 

Hey carcass93,, posted on December 11, 2008 at 14:46:33
Squonk
Audiophile

Posts: 1886
Location: Indiana
Joined: August 17, 2005
 which compiler do you use?




 

Intel v. 10.1 N/T, posted on December 11, 2008 at 14:55:36
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 N/T

 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 11, 2008 at 16:03:09
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
Hey Alan,

Thanks for the info on Foobar/ winamp.

The latest version of winamp (5.54) is pretty stable. I am using a view that just shows coverart and allows one to select albums from the art. Like this:



The only real bug I have seen is in setting up this view. The default is covers and details. When you switch to bigger cover art and no details, it always seems to freeze Winamp (even on my fast computer). The trick is to set up the big icon view BEFORE loading media. This works without hiccup.

The other issues i have had on the rig with the lynx are minor and involve 3rd party plugins. The Cue player plugin, when winamp loads for some reason gives an error like this:



The weird thing is that you can see from the picture that Winamp reverts to an old skin. If you hit OK the program loads normally. The cue player guy I think told me how to get rid of that, but I dont remember. I can look it up. BUT I don't shut down winamp, instead I put my pc in standby, so all I have to do is click OK once and I can go forever without messing with it.

Standby leads though to another issue. I found that Otochans Asio is different from KS in that with KS you could go to standby. With ASIO, it looks like it goes to standby but the pc still produces sound like a skipping cd. So I now pause or stop play with my remote THEN hit the standby button on the remote.

Minor stuff.

I also found that ASIO doesn't work for me if there are other output plugins in the plugin folder. I had the damnest time getting 67 to work but as soon as I cleared the folder of the other ASIO outputs and ds, it fired right up. I couldn't though get version 71 (dll or exe) to work with the Lynx.

I did a VERY minimal install of winamp on an audio only pc and have no internet. I would say that as far as these things go, it is VERY stable...much more than what I am hearing from Dynaudio and Linux :).

But yeah, without sp2 and the steps above, it was super buggy. Now I am confident that I can get it to be stable. I was thinking of doing a step by step guide but that seems like a bunch of work, but I do have a few days off during the holidays :)

Soon I will move on to the Thuneau output and cMP2...

 

Thanks Scrith but, posted on December 11, 2008 at 16:12:49
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 I AM using XP. So ASIO does make a difference for me vs. KS (as you explain below about ks).

SO you seem to say that ASIO is not magic but then explain how it CAN BE ON XP. Which is what I am using.

While I too get tired of the ASIO misunderstandings on this board (the ASIO4all with USB dacs and ASIO in Vista are especially funny), I think it is safe to say that with XP, it is a must.

I agree that Vista is a different animal but I will never run it. It is just not in the budget.

When I get time I'll put in the DS plugin and see if the warmth is still there.

 

RE: ASIO Ignorance INDEED, posted on December 11, 2008 at 16:16:29
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Dyn,

For the record I am not comparing DIFFERENT ASIO implementations. I AM in a way comparing ASIO to Kernal Streaming.

So I don't know what placebo you are talking about.

Maybe the added warmth is due to increasing age and hearing loss

It could be, I am a couple of weeks older and well my wife has been nagging :)

I also remembered that I had added a sub too, but I am able to mute its output from my remote, and the warmth is still there with or without it.

The warmth is good.

 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 11, 2008 at 16:19:09
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 D,

I have heard that said about the Lynx. I think it is highly neutral and it doesn't sound harsh on my system.

I thought my Birdland Dac was cold and sterile compared to the Lynx. The lynx seems to be detailed yet musical. Definately not lush, but I could see how some would not like its detail.

 

RE: ASIO Ignorance, posted on December 11, 2008 at 17:49:15
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "I highly doubt it has anything to do with ASIO, which is merely a protocol for moving digital audio data (without timing information). ASIO got the reputation as somehow 'sounding' better than other protocols because of the problems with the KernalMixer in Windows XP."

ASIO sounds better because the ASIO is (purportedly) bit-perfect, and kmixer is not (uses asynchronous sample-rate conversion).

"This problem was fixed in Windows Vista and, lo and behold, ASIO now sounds the same as DirectSound which sounds the same as KernalStreaming."

A lot of people, including myself, still use XP.....

"It amazes me how once an idea gets out there ('ASIO sounds better than DirectSound!!!') it propagates with a ridiculous snowball-effect wherein a large group of people start attributing everything they are hearing in their system to it."

Well in the XP domain, this "snowball-effect" was justified IMO, simply because it was transition from a non-bit-perfect protocol to a bit-perfect protocol. No point in being "amazed" over that.

If Vista got rid of kmixer, then it's mostly latency issues causing perceptive sonic differences. But this too should never be discounted.

I think one of the biggest oversights in PC audio design and evaluation is the latency issues (jitter) with playback from different media. This is why hardly anybody agrees on which media sounds best.

"The 'black magic' of the Otachan versions of plug-ins is equally amazing: if you translate his developer notes from Japanese, you can see that most of his changes were in the User Interface and error-handling code, yet there are many, many posts here that discuss the vast differences between these versions of his plug ins. Highly amusing!"

The different versions probably have different latency signatures, and since latency equates to jitter (the latency varies, it isn't fixed), they sound different. Whether one version sounds better than another has mostly to do with how the different flavors of application interact with a given machine. "A" might sound better than "B" on one machine, and "B" better than "A" on another. Each person's computer should be treated individually, and adjusted to attain the best satisfaction.

Even if what you stated was true, I don't see the point of this being "amusing" or "hilarious"..... As if you take enjoyment over others' (in your view) cluelessness.

 

RE: My experience with ASIO, posted on December 11, 2008 at 18:00:19
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "ASIO4All is just a 'middle man' that fools audio programs (like Foobar2000) into thinking that you have a hardware driver that supports ASIO. The end result still gets routed to DirectSound, I believe (because if you are using ASIO4All you don't have a hardware driver that can support ASIO data input, otherwise you wouldn't need ASIO4All, would you?)."

I cannot speak for others, but on my XP machine, ASIO4ALL does *not* act like a "middle man"..... It *displaces* kmixer with the ASIO linkage, disabling all Windows sound controls. (If you use the volume slider on Winamp, for example, the volume remains full all the time. One must use the volume control in the hardware.) It also disables any playback that uses kmixer. And conversely, whenever kmixer playback is active, ASIO becomes disabled.

 

Well said Todd! nt., posted on December 11, 2008 at 18:18:35
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 d

 

Taking enjoyment over others' clueness my have its benefits., posted on December 11, 2008 at 18:38:45
DBB
Audiophile

Posts: 641
Location: NYC, USA
Joined: November 11, 2004
 Let's not give all teasing a bad name. Consider this:

"We learn the wisdom of laughing at ourselves, and not taking the self too seriously. We learn boundaries between danger and safety, right and wrong, friend and foe, male and female, what is serious and what is not. We transform the many conflicts of social living into entertaining dramas. No kidding." This is the source:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/07/magazine/07teasing-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&sq=teasing&st=cse&scp=1

I like entertaining dramas.


 

Here's interesting thing: in my experience with Otachan ASIO plugin,..., posted on December 11, 2008 at 19:29:16
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 most compiler optimizations are actually HARMFUL to the sound. Look at the screenshot - this how it looks for the build that sounds best to me. I honestly built practically all possible combinations (well, not exactly, but 25-30 for sure) and compared on my system. Note that practically every optimization is turned off.

Is there explanation for that? Probably there is - but I'm not even remotely equipped to take educated guess.




 

Still no luck Carc, posted on December 11, 2008 at 20:47:39
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Any tips?? Winamp just crashes when I press play.

 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 11, 2008 at 22:02:56
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Squonk,

I put DS back in, and well you are right.

 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 11, 2008 at 22:17:49
Squonk
Audiophile

Posts: 1886
Location: Indiana
Joined: August 17, 2005
 Yes indeed. Hey, I do believe there is a lot of placebo out there so I am ALWAYS a pessimist*, so, when I say I heard something, I really did. Now, the more I think about it, I really shouldn't say DS sounds better, it just sounds different. To me, compared to ASIO, DS sounds a bit sterile. Also, I'm not sure 'warm' is the best adjective either because to me, warm means a loss of detail. To me, ASIO didn't sound less detailed, but more 'robust', 'juicy' lmao, hell, I'm not a reviewer, it's hard for me to pick the right word. Or, maybe I just have the wrong idea of what 'warm' means. lol But, they DEFINITELY sound different and since DS supposedly sounds good in Vista then it's got to be K-Mixer for sure. Anyway, too bad you can't get the SSE2 asio_out(exe) to work. (I think it sounds splendid)

*I couldn't hear a difference between SSE2 & SSE3. But, I still appreciate carcass for compiling a SSE3 plugin for me to compare.




 

RE: My experience with ASIO, posted on December 11, 2008 at 23:51:01
ThomasPf
Audiophile

Posts: 835
Joined: January 22, 2002
 You are correct ASIO4ALL implements a shim on top of kernel streaming that advertizes itself as an ASIO sound card.

DirectSound and kmixer are being bypassed.

Cheers

Thomas

 

RE: ASIO Ignorance, posted on December 11, 2008 at 23:54:52
ThomasPf
Audiophile

Posts: 835
Joined: January 22, 2002
 Vista does not have kmixer but it is still not bit transparent for DirectSound applications.

To get bit transparent palyback on Vista or for that matter Windows 7 you will still need ASIO, Kernel Streaming, or WASAPI.

I have never been able to discern any audible differences when using bit transparent playback. Either of these methods seem to work equally well.

Cheers

Thomas

 

LOL......Warmth Is Good, posted on December 12, 2008 at 02:34:31
Dynaudio_Rules
 Yes indeed, enjoy it....I know my hearing is not as it was 20 years ago. Not that listen to music at high db, but loud lawn mowers etc. can have a toll on hearing.

The bright side of hearing loss is those high shrill octaves are smoothed out and the wifes nagging seems to fade a bit.

Enjoy and have a great holiday season!



Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry

 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 12, 2008 at 02:42:34
audioAl
Audiophile

Posts: 1462
Location: So. Texas
Joined: December 16, 2007
 Dawnrazor: There are many people who dont download serivce packs,you should. Also, many people dont defragment their computers, or clean disk, you should. If not, the machine will slow to a crawl. CCleaner is also recommended, free download. Just a thought, there is a sp3 for XP, Alan Cheers!
Vista Ultimate 32bit/Diamond XS Dac/ Sterovox coaxial line in to Insignia Amp/Cambridge SoundWorks& Infinity RS 1001 Speakers

 

GOT IT!!!!!, posted on December 12, 2008 at 08:27:57
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 FOr some reason I had the sse2 version.

THe normal one DOES work with the Lynx and my old via processor!!!

Fired right up!!!!!

Thanks for aking me about this.



 

The MOST likely reason?, posted on December 12, 2008 at 08:36:00
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
 It COULD be all in your head. I believe of all the "differences" I've heard in PC audio doing back and forth iterations about 1/2 of them were in my head. Comparing ASIO output plugin builds and ASIO versus Kernel Streaming? Probably closer to 85% imagined.

Switch back to the player and plugin you were using BEFORE this "warmth" thing happened and see if the system sounds "less warm" as a result.

Then have a good friend switch back and forth - randomly. Or just keep switching back and forth until you EVENTUALLY (from exhaustion) forget to switch or the switch does not "stick" and you go to switch AGAIN and guess what - you didn't switch the last time. And you're left sitting there asking yourself... Why am I switching back and forth between two bitperfect plugins again? Honestly - switch back and forth until you screw up. 99% of the time audiophiles do not realize a switch was not even made and still hear the difference they predisposed themselves to hearing. 1% of the time, audiophiles REALIZE a switch was made and say "Hey, nothing changed, you didn't switch that time".

Honestly, if you need to KNOW which plugin/player combo you are using to hear that blessed difference....

Well, that's all I am going to say.

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: The MOST likely reason?, posted on December 12, 2008 at 08:51:37
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Presto,

Your point is well taken, and I agree about those A/Bs.

But maybe I didn't make this clear. I wasn't comparing things. Meaning that I agree so much with what you and Scrith say, that I just put the ASIO plugin in and was happy it worked.

I just noticed after a bit that things were sounding warmer. I wasn't listening at all critically...just doing some work and the sound would catch me out of the blue. Recordings that I thought were brighter or harsh like the Nirvana disk (the one with the baby chasing the money) were now slightly warm.

By warm I mean that the details are more present but not bright or harsh...unless it is in the recording.

I DID go back to the DS plugin, and well the sterile harshness is more present with that plugin. I could a/b that I think. I'll try to get my wife to help but that will be a tough sell.

Anyhow, the highs are where I notice it most. Perhaps it is more of a decay or smoothness or 3d sound vs DS. Less fatigue would be a good way to describe it.

 

RE: ASIO Ignorance, posted on December 12, 2008 at 09:00:52
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
 "I have never been able to discern any audible differences when using bit transparent playback."

Me neither. Then again, I've successfully got bitperfect playback (pass DTS passthrough tests) with directsound - I just needed the "right" volume settings. Even with the dreaded Windows audio mixer working, I still had it working. The myths tend to hit the floor quite hard when I get serious about doing some LOGICAL iterative testing.

The idea that kmixer is some "sound destroying box" that needs to be completely bypassed is the single largest myth in PC Audio playback and it's ALL OVER the internet. People believe all kinds of crazy things. Some of my favorite myths:

a) You can't use XP at all. Kmixer is insidious
b) You can't know for sure when Kmixer is "envoked"
c) Kmixer ALWAYS resamples EVERYTHING to 48kHz (love that one)
d) You NEED kernel streaming or ASIO to get bitperfect on XP
e) If "volume controls" are disabled in the windows mixer, you're good.
f) If "volume controls" are disabled in the media player, you're good.
g) If "volume controls" are disabled in your interfaces mixer, you're good.
h) You need ALL of these volume controls to be disabled to be good.
i) You need to disable the windows audio service to kill kmixer
j) Kmixer is the volume control panel (windows audio 'mixer') and if the master or waveout volume "functions" then this mixer is "working" and audio is being resampled.

The funny part is it's really not all that complex. All you NEED to do is disable ALL secondary sources of audio, including system sounds. No sounds from browsers, games, or any other background services. Run your audio app only. (If you're gaming and listening at the same time, why would you care about bitperfect audio in the FIRST place?)

Then all you do is run SPDIF out of your audio interface into a DTS capable receiver and set it to "Auto" and play a 44.1khz DTS track. (I like the "Holst - The Planets in DTS" disc myself). If you get a hissing sound and no decoding you're either a)resampling or b) changing the volume bit or c) all of the above. If you get the DTS light to come on, you're golden. Bitperfect audio. Nary a change to even the volume bit. You'll notice the following:

1) You don't need to "deselect" your audio interface in Windows "Sounds and Audio Devices Properties" page.
2) You don't need to select "Use default playback devices only"
3) You *DO* need to ensure volume controls are at 0dbFS - which in the case of windows is "default" or 50% and 100% in the case of the volume controls in MOST commercial mixers (aka the one that came with the audio interface driver).

Honestly, before I adapted the DTS test as my first and foremost test, I too was caught up in an end of iterations, myths, false logic and much confusion. The DTS test is DEFINITIVE and NEVER WRONG and TRULY REVEALING.

Cheers,
Presto

 

ASIO is an idea, not a thing, posted on December 12, 2008 at 10:13:04
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 If the sound consistently differs there are three logical possibilities (not necessarily mutually exclusive):

1. Differences are caused by the mind not sound waves, due to some kind of bias, placebo / nocebo effect, etc.

2. Different bits get to the DAC

3. Bits are delivered to the DAC in different ways (e.g. timing)

Now there is nothing wrong with (1) being the cause of good (enjoyable) sound, but it is probably not likely to be of interest to others who read this forum. There is something wrong with (1) being the cause of bad (not enjoyable) sound, but the question arises whether physical or mental methods are best used to correct this. This will depend on the individual. In general, I don't subscribe to idea of paying big bucks to fix this sort of problem, but then even the most expensive audio gear may be cheaper than psychotherapy. :-)

2. If different bits get to the DAC it is probably indisputable that the sound waves produced by the speakers will be different. Whether they are better or worse will be a matter of personal taste. In any event, in my system I deliberately change the bits that go to my DAC for two good reasons: (1) I am performing digital bass adjustment to compensate for my speakers and room, and (2) I do upsampling in software because I prefer the reconstruction filter associated with cPlay's sample rate converter to that built into my DAC. I have a 24 bit DAC, and I am not concerned with losing a bit off the bottom. I also don't worry about less than 10 DB of digital volume control, and in some cases, find it advantageous as it seems to clean up the sound output of my (extremely cheap) external DAC.

In short, I DO NOT subscribe to the "bit perfect" religion. But only because I normally send many more than 2 x 16 x 44100 bits per second to my DAC.

There is nothing magic about ASIO. It is just a software interface, i.e. a specification. It is not a thing. It is an idea. People have used this idea to implement software that instantiates this interface (e.g. ASIO device drivers for a particular sound card or the ASIO4ALL shim that adapts the ASIO interface to Windows kernel streaming) or that uses this interface (e.g. cPlay or an ASIO plug-in for another media player). There is no point in talking about ASIO without going into the details of the particular software involved, e.g. the particular software on both sides of the ASIO interface.

3. The timing of delivery (and possibly other aspects of the eye-pattern waveform on the wire(s) between the PC and DAC) can definitely affect the sound, even if the bits are unchanged. The way in which this happens depends on the particular characteristics of the DAC. For example, if the DAC has perfect rejection of incoming jitter, the timing at which the bits arrive won't matter. The jitter spectrum arriving at the DAC depends on details of software, including buffer sizes, CPU cache operation, and detailed instruction sequences as generated by a compiler from source code. The DAC filters this jitter spectrum according to its peculiar design. Hence, the overall subjective jitter performance is going to depend on the interaction of the DAC with the software. It is entirely possible that audiophile A hears no difference when software changes and audiophile B hears a significant difference. This does not necessarily mean that audiophile B is deaf or has a low resolution system. It may mean that his DAC has better jitter rejection, i.e. higher quality in some sense.

The relevance of all this timing nonsense to ASIO is simple. The ASIO interface was specifically designed to permit low latency audio I/O. This is essential in the pro audio environment in which ASIO originated, because the interface is used to connect components that are used in real-time over-recording, i.e. laying down multiple tracks of a mix. Time delays here will be noticed by musicians who are making a recording. Low latency also speeds up the editing process by making it easier for an engineer to position to part of a file by ear. The unique aspect of the ASIO interface is that it permits low latency. Buffering can always be added as needed to increase latency. Hence the likely effect of software based on the ASIO interface is to offer the user more control over buffering and timing. This extra flexibility can definitely help in reducing audible effects of periodic jitter, because the period of this jitter depends on the buffer size.

I am sorry if this explanation is too lengthy. The problem is inherently complex. It is possible to tweak a complex system without any understanding of how it works and get good results. However, knowledge can be better than gross trial and error—it reduces the amount of patience required. With computer audio, patience is usually in short supply.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Most likely, your CPU doesn't support SSE2 - run CPU-Z to find out. N/T, posted on December 12, 2008 at 12:03:44
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 N/T

 

I hope you won't get offended if I call you "RBNG of Computer Audio"., posted on December 12, 2008 at 12:24:57
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 Not as extreme as BassNut, of course, but still...

 

They sound the same in Vista..., posted on December 12, 2008 at 12:51:06
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 1169
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
 The difference lies in DirectSound in Vista, which sounds as good as ASIO and KernalStraming (unlike XP, where DirectSound is inferior to ASIO and KernalStreaming).

 

The snowball gets bigger..., posted on December 12, 2008 at 13:03:56
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 1169
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
 The second sentence of my post is pretty clear about the status of ASIO on XP vs. Vista.

"The different versions probably have different latency signatures..." is is indicative of a fundamental misunderstanding of the systems in question.

 

RE: ASIO Ignorance, posted on December 12, 2008 at 13:45:54
Telstar
Audiophile

Posts: 250
Joined: November 17, 2007
 I highly doubt it has anything to do with ASIO, which is merely a protocol for moving digital audio data (without timing information). ASIO got the reputation as somehow "sounding" better than other protocols because of the problems with the KernalMixer in Windows XP. This problem was fixed in Windows Vista and, lo and behold, ASIO now sounds the same as DirectSound which sounds the same as KernalStreaming.

It has to do with excluding the OS mixer.

It amazes me how once an idea gets out there ("ASIO sounds better than DirectSound!!!") it propagates with a ridiculous snowball-effect wherein a large group of people start attributing everything they are hearing in their system to it.

Because it's simply true.

Only if you have a VERY low-end setup, you wont HEAR the differences between normal playback and ASIO or WASAPI playback in Vista.
What is harder to feel is the difference between different players, all doing bit-perfect playback with asio or WASAPI.

 

Your Logic Means All Bit-Perfect Methods Sound The Same, posted on December 12, 2008 at 14:25:50
Dynaudio_Rules
 ASIO sounds the same as Kernel Streaming sounds the same as WASAPI.



Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry

 

RE: ASIO Ignorance, posted on December 12, 2008 at 14:38:33
Squonk
Audiophile

Posts: 1886
Location: Indiana
Joined: August 17, 2005
 I agree with you. I can't seem to tell the diff between Foobar & WinAmp (using ASIO). Not to say there isn't a difference, I just can't hear it. I sure can hear a diff between ASIO and DS in XP. I use WinAmp just because I am very familiar with it.




 

RE: Your Logic Means All Bit-Perfect Methods Sound The Same, posted on December 12, 2008 at 14:44:21
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 "Your Logic Means All Bit-Perfect Methods Sound The Same"

I did not say that. That's not what I hear or believe. Different software running while the music is playing can and often does affect sound.

I don't believe that all software in a computer affects sound, just that software that is running while the music is playing, or has somehow left tracks in the hardware state of the machine. These could include which disks were physically spinning, where files are located on hard drive, the contents of RAM memory or CPU cache, or other similar things. Generally none of these persist through a defragmentation of disks and a reboot. There have been some AA reports where things other than the hardware state of the machine affect sound, e.g. treatment of disks prior to bit perfect ripping, but none of these come with sufficient information to be credible, let alone useful.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

You may be right, but I thought I had and it said sse2 was supported, posted on December 12, 2008 at 17:35:04
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 What I did notice is that to get zero dropouts I had to increase the asio buffer over what I had for 67. I think I went from 8 to 12.

 

RE: They sound the same in Vista..., posted on December 12, 2008 at 17:37:51
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Scrith, you seem to be saying that ASIO sounds the same on both?????

I read DBB as asking if one OS sounded better.

SO if you have XP with ASIO or KS, does it sound the same as Vista with ASIO or KS, etc.


 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 12, 2008 at 22:02:09
Adriel
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: San Diego
Joined: October 13, 2001
 You forgot to switch the soundcard mode. It's still got EAX effects on.

 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 12, 2008 at 22:25:55
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hi Adriel,

Isn't that only on creative cards??? I dont own one of those and dont think my card supports it. Where would I look to turn it off?

 

RE: ASIO Ignorance, posted on December 13, 2008 at 11:44:28
ThomasPf
Audiophile

Posts: 835
Joined: January 22, 2002
 Getting 100% volume with directsound and kmixer active is not quite possible on XP.

The code that implements the volume control is using a specific mmx instruction to do the multiplication. The result is that there is no unity gain. Try to change the volume to zero and back to 100% in your experiment.

All the rest of your observations are spot on!

Sorry

Thomas

 

Don't Let It Bowl You Over......., posted on December 13, 2008 at 21:27:16
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "'The different versions probably have different latency signatures...' is is indicative of a fundamental misunderstanding of the systems in question."

Latency is the delay between the reading of data from media and the output. This delay is not constant over time, but it varies. The variance in this delay results in jitter. And with updates in software, there will likely be changes to the delay characteristic as well.

Anyone can call any explanation a "fundamental misunderstanding", but without an explanation behind such claim, it says absolutely nothing.

 

RE: Don't Let It Bowl You Over......., posted on December 14, 2008 at 01:54:12
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 1169
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
 "Latency is the delay between the reading of data from media and the output." You're getting warmer...an ASIO interface does not read from any storage media.

 

RE: They sound the same in Vista..., posted on December 14, 2008 at 09:58:46
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 1169
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
 XP: DirectSound = bad, ASIO and KernalStreaming = good

Vista: DirectSound and ASIO and KermalStreaminf = good

 

RE: They sound the same in Vista..., posted on December 14, 2008 at 10:12:07
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12589
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Scrith,

What he is looking for is:

XP: ASIO and KS VS. Vista: XP, KS, or DS.

Especially in DBBs case as I understand it if there is no a difference with say XP with asio vs. Vista with DS, this could be a big win for Dbb since he could use his SRS plugin and not have to take the kmixer hit.

So have you compared XP to Vista??? Or are you saying that ASIO is ASIO, etc. and the OS wont make much difference?

 

RE: They sound the same in Vista..., posted on December 15, 2008 at 10:03:00
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 1169
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
 I have never directly compared a system running Vista to one running XP, although I have used both extensively. As with most things, I am certain there are people who think they hear a difference, and I am equally sure that the vast majority of these people have never conducted a proper test to verify it.

 

RE: Warmth and ASIO, posted on December 17, 2008 at 13:15:18
JayNYC
Audiophile

Posts: 60
Joined: May 7, 2001
 Using Media Monkey Gold on Vista32 with TC Electronic Konnekt Live and Yamaha HS-50 monitors, I can definitely hear a difference between Otachan ASIO and Steve Monk's Kernel Streaming Plugin. That said, cplay ASIO beats them both.

 

Page processed in 0.045 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]