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Switched to PC audio 2 yrs ago - never looked back until...

207.216.246.51

Posted on June 25, 2008 at 13:48:31
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
Now I'm in trouble.

Remember my "el cheapo" system with the M-audio Revo feeding the JVC RXD205S receiver?

Well, I was going to try and use my (also cheap) Toshiba SD04960 combo player as a transport - but it does something really dumb - it resamples everything to 49 or 96 khz. Not great for 44.1!

So I thought of trying my (also cheap) Pioneer DV-478A digital out instead.

Well, to put it mildly, I was floored. I had given up on these players years ago as being even a *decent* transport for such devices as my Behringer DCX2496 or various home theatre receivers. But for some reason I can't help but use the word "synergy" to explain how the digital out of the Pioneer works with the digital circuit of the JVC. There is no hardness, harshness or sibilance at all, and bass is somehow more powerful without being "bloomed" or "bloated".

I listening for hours last night, bothered by the lack of access to my collection, but at the same time, relaxed because there was no PC, no RFI, no Windows, no mouse or keyboard or monitor - just two insanely cheap components driving two cost-effective DIY 2-way monitors.

I must confess, I felt very "close" to the music last night.

I think my reluctance to spend big bucks on a PC Audio interface has shown me very clearly the limitations of PC audio *IF* one does not invest a certain amount. Even Fmak, who is using TOP dollar cards and DACs and reclockers has felt the need to customize power supplies for even less noise and lower jitter.

Damn - that digital input into the digital receiver sounds *WAY* better than it should. WAY better.

Just thought I would venture outside of the PC Audio "box" for a while. Not reconsidering PC audio as a whole, just my own particular approach on it.

I can't wait to try my Saxon CD700 optical output into the same receiver... Need another optical cable!

Cheers,
Presto

 

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no surprise, posted on June 25, 2008 at 14:48:28
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6057
Joined: April 6, 2000
there are "cheap" DVD players that make for a very nice digital transport. My Zenith (LG) DVB318 makes for a nice transport, too, especially when spdif is fed straight to a "digital" amp like my Panny.

However, my audio PC with Lynx 2B (modded) spdif still sounds superior when feeding the same Panny with spdif, so as usual, YMMV..

 

RE: no surprise, posted on June 25, 2008 at 15:04:19
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
Hey Jon:

Thanks for chiming in. Yeah, this has been my conclusion. To beat the *decent* sound I am getting from the mid-fi gear, I think I need to at LEAST get into Lynx territory or a higher-buck I2S/async USB solution.

Lynx cards are the exception and not the rule for PCI card solutions. So are a few RME cards according to Fmak.

What did you do to mod the Lynx? That sounds like delicate work...

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: no surprise, posted on June 25, 2008 at 19:00:41
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6057
Joined: April 6, 2000
No PC board work on my Lynx at all. I simply got rid of the stock DB25/digital cable pigtail and made a DB25-female spdif plug adapter so I can use any digital cable I want (currently Stereovox XV2).

As far as USB, I don't have async USB, but I do have a DAC with USB-to-I2S circuit internally, but even with this DAC, I prefer its spdif input over its USB input.

BTW, I just compared (again) various power cords and power conditioners on my audio PC with fanless PS, and yet again, all of them sound different :)

 

Another "Magnavox Moment"........, posted on June 25, 2008 at 22:56:33
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37308
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
The evolution of digital upgrades: Over a period of 10 to 15 years, an annual change in source player, in which the sound is slightly "different", and was believed to be slightly "better"..... Until after that 10-to-15-year period, one dares bring out an "old" player, and is stunned by how good it sounds......

It happened to me listening to a Magnavox 745 CD changer of late 1980s vintage..... Doesn't speak well for those supposedly "improving" the technology.

 

RE: Switched to PC audio 2 yrs ago - never looked back until..., posted on June 25, 2008 at 23:07:31
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
I sypmpathise. For me, PC audio is for long periods of music as I can set and forget - I don't use any fancy archiving stuff; just arrange on HD as I find it easy to use.

The statement that PC audio is far superior to quality boxes and this bit perfect thing being perfect sound is just hype to me.

 

RE: no surprise, posted on June 26, 2008 at 03:37:10
audioAl
Audiophile

Posts: 1462
Location: So. Texas
Joined: December 16, 2007
PC Audio, Thanks for the informative post, I am new to the forum, I just built an AMD platform 4200+ 2 gigs of 800mhz Corsair ram, the mainboard is MSI K9N Neo V2/V3 w/Realtek ALC888 onboard audio. I have 320 gigs Seagate harddrive, I want to connect to my Insignia 500 watt receiver, what DAC should I use, can you advise? Budget $250.00
Now I Understand

 

Nobody said PC Audio was going to be easy..., posted on June 26, 2008 at 09:33:07
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 1169
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
Don't write off all PC audio just because you couldn't get it working as well as you'd like with one configuration (this is a very common theme around here, by the way! "I couldn't make product X work as well as I'd like, so it sucks!").

When it is done right, PC Audio can be superior to any CD- or DVD-based system. The reasoning is very simple...any system that doesn't have to extract data from media as flaky as CDs in real time is going to have an advantage. Hard drives (or flash memory, I suppose) are far more reliable, convenient, and efficient.

Yes, PC Audio can be a lot trickier than going to your local hi-fi shop and plunking down $5K or more for some high-end CD player. Leave that to the people with too much money to spend and not enough patience or expertise to deal with PC Audio. The rest of us know the truth about high-end hi-fi in the 21st century. :)

 

RE: Switched to PC audio 2 yrs ago - never looked back until..., posted on June 26, 2008 at 11:56:19
aljordan
Audiophile

Posts: 1252
Location: Southern Maine
Joined: November 4, 2003
I had something very similar just happen. I had scratched PC Audio until I could get a new DAC that could better fit my latest system changes. I stuck my Marantz SACD player back in the system and was listening to that for a couple of weeks. I finally bought a new DAC last week, and in the process found that the Marantz player feeding the DAC is more musical, relaxing, and less harsh than any output from the PC I tried. This with both the new DAC and the Benchmark DAC 1. I am guessing the having the PC too close to the system is causing interference problems, even though I took care in choosing power supplies, drives, and under clocking the CPU.

I wonder if a Squeezebox feeding the DAC, in order to get the PC out of the room, will ameliorate such problems.

Alan

 

RE: no surprise, posted on June 26, 2008 at 11:58:47
aljordan
Audiophile

Posts: 1252
Location: Southern Maine
Joined: November 4, 2003
Hi Jon,

Can you share the details on how you made your DB25 to spdif adapter? I would like to try the same for my Lynx card.

Thanks,
Alan

 

RE: Nobody said PC Audio was going to be easy..., posted on June 26, 2008 at 12:19:25
aljordan
Audiophile

Posts: 1252
Location: Southern Maine
Joined: November 4, 2003
Hi Scrith,

Can you share further details on how you did it right? Looking at the PC as described in your system, it appears that we built our computers quite similarly. I used a similar power supply, shock cord mounted quiet hard drive, a quiet case with 120mm Nexus fans and special CPU heat sync, acoustic foam in the case, etc... The ambient noise of the PC doesn't bother me at all, nor does my laptop when using it. I used to think that the PC was a clearly advantageous solution, but with more resolving speakers I can more readily hear EMI/RFI harshness while using the computer as a transport. The laptop is not so bad, but I am currently limited to USB via the laptop, which loses resolution compared to AES/EBU or coax spdif.

Thanks,
Alan

 

If proximity is the culprit (I doubt that), should be easy to check - listen to Marantz with PC on and off,..., posted on June 26, 2008 at 12:26:15
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
will there be any difference?

 

RE: Nobody said PC Audio was going to be easy..., posted on June 26, 2008 at 14:33:27
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 1169
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
Hmm, I'm not exactly sure what I am doing "right" but I'll describe a few things about my system that might help:

- the DAC and amps are about 5 feet away from the computer (which is also under a desk and inside of a metal case w/ sound dampening materials inside of it, big slow fans, huge heatsinks, etc.).

- I use high quality power cords that seem to offer quite a bit of shielding (Black Sands and PS Audio) for each piece of audio equipment and for the PC itself. The PC and audio gear are plugged into different power outlets (about 10 feet apart).

- All components are fed through passive PS Audio power filters (Duet and Quartet, w/ a couple of the noise buster things in the house also).

- I use a high-quality cryo-treated USB cable (cryoparts.com). The DAC is a Benchmark DAC1 USB, by the way. Lately I've been upsampling in Foobar2000 to 96K and using KernalStreaming. The output is set to 24-bit. The OS is Vista 64 and I have 8GB of RAM and a Quad-core Intel CPU.

- The amps and dac are sitting on top of sheets of ERS paper (not sure this really does anything, but I have a few 8.5 x 11 sheet so this is how I use them at the moment).

- audio cables are Cardas Golden Reference

Not everything listed makes an audible difference, but perhaps there is a cumulative effect to all this stuff?

 

RE: no surprise, posted on June 26, 2008 at 15:08:00
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6057
Joined: April 6, 2000
For Lynx analogue breakout cable, I ordered some fancy DB25 connector from Supra, used Vampire continuous-cast "magnet wire" from Percy (22AWG or so) and braided them.

I did similar for the digital breakout cable, but I found the connector from local radio shack good enough. Used short run of Vampire magnet wire again in twist into female digital plug. The pinouts are on Lynx website manual.

 

On configuration? You must be joking, posted on June 26, 2008 at 22:21:58
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
Read the 200 posts of mine that show up in this forum (of probably the 1000 I've posted).

Ask yourself again if I'm some newbie who plugged a USB audio device into his PC last week and "wrote off" PC audio.

As for your DAC1 USB...

The Benchmark DAC1 USB input is said to pale in comparison to its digital inputs from a decent transport which is why for $1200 it never made my shortlist for a PC audio solution. Maybe is has a $2 burr brown USB chip in it... like my $70 JVC USB receiver... Immune to jitter their ad copy says... depends on who you ask I guess.

Cheers,
Presto

 

very timely post, posted on June 27, 2008 at 07:20:14
jimmyjames
Audiophile

Posts: 4284
Location: Raleighwood
Joined: February 20, 2001
I almost pulled the trigger on an HP small form factor PC this weekend that was on sale at Office Depot. Respectable specs and comes stock with rca/coax digital out to run to an outboard dac. If it had anything other or addn. to VGA out for video, I would have bought it ($450 and includes 500g HD). Only recently dipped my toe in the PC audio waters. $90 Silverstone USB dac out to an old Marantz CD receiver to some $50 Sony speakers. It's fun but nothing like my reference rig in the man cave. Why isn't there an affordable solution like an Apple iTV/Olive hybrid. Olive just needs a GUI, video out and a remote control.

To the poster that said no one said it would be easy...man, life is to short to put up with cludgey solutions to what should not be a problem in the first place. I put up with half assed hardware and software platforms at work and 1.5mb/sec internet pipe for 25 users, CS Lenovo lap tops with Symantec/Norton molasses ware, and the ridiculous Lotus Notes. I don't need these kind of hassles at home. My hats off to those that can make it work and have reference sound quality. Some folks just love a challenge...

 

RE: Switched to PC audio 2 yrs ago - never looked back until..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 07:21:52
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
I have been sayiyng this for yonks. It takes A LOT to get a PC system to sound really good.

It seems that others are now saying so, parhaps initially being foxed into thinking that PC audio is easy and superior. What, with a £100 MB, a £50 or so PS with lots of noise, and a £150 sound card???? Oh and software that may or may not work 100%

USB audio is just troublesome unless one wants to stick to low rez or pay Gordan for his 2496 (seen no reviews).

 

RE: no surprise, posted on June 27, 2008 at 07:30:57
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
It is hard indeed with 6 - 8mm cable. All the thin aes cables I can find are of mediocre quality.

It will be better to solder from the isolating transformers and or output pins before the multishorting plug to a set of sockets on another slot, trying to avoid large impedance discontiuities.

I shall do this one day.

Meanwhile, what I have done is to cut off and insulate all these unneeded mutlichannel plugs, and just use the stock cable shortened. The aes bunch on my aes16 is actually good quality. With this, and my output relocked thru the Big Ben, 176.4/192k sounds very good (with my power supply mod).

 

Well, don't take it the wrong way., posted on June 27, 2008 at 12:44:55
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
The trouble with some of these mid-fi products I collect is that once in a while they SOUND REALLY GOOD. Like using economical DVD-A/V players as a transport for example - some people have had really good luck doing this and have compared really silly priced "circuit city" units to higher end transports. I have also seen far more low-buck DVD players that simple SUCK as a transport and you can readily hear the loss of detail and information - the most common culprit is forced resampling to 48khz - the sample rate used in (wait for it) the old DVD-V format for audio. Let's face it. Japan first figured out how to make stuff cheap - and now they've been slowly improving quality while keeping prices low.

I think a consumer (if he watches forums and reads up on stuff) can assemble a COMPLETE audio system for a couple of grand that may not meet or beat killer-buck systems, but come pretty damn close and score mega points in the value as a result.

There is "word on the street" that hard disk playback is inherently superior. Sure - if you're worried about the 1 or 2 read errors PER MONTH you get (and can't even hear) using a conventional transport. The bottom line is that we are FORCED to do one of TWO THINGS with a PC no matter HOW good buffered HDD playback is at the FRONT end:

a) Eventually convert to analog in the PC
b) Eventually pipe digital out of the PC

Option a) is avoided by most here, except Lynx 22 series users -> the only PCI audio card users I am aware of that are both picky and satisfied at the same time. Somehow, Lynx can get nice analog out of a noisey PC - and it costs about $1000 bucks.

b) is the more popular way to go around here where we use USB options, firewire, or a quality SPDIF or AES/EBU source. But guess what. All of these devices have two levels of jitter associated with them. THe first is the beautiful number on the test bench when fed by super clean DC, and the other is the real world number when powered by the noise-ridden mess INSIDE the PC.

When piping digital out, we have RME and Lynx cards in the $1000 range all the way down to cheap but mega-value cards like a Chaintek AV-710 (discontinued) and the M-Audio Revolution 5.1/7.1. A LOT of cards from $30 to $300 have TERRIBLE SPDIF implementation and some even do forced resampling to 48 or 96khz like so many mid-fi DVD players do. (Try getting bitperfect 44.1 RBCD out of a card like THAT!)

So don't underestimate PC audio - but do be skeptical because whatever you try should be compared to cheap, mid-fi and expensive "commerical box" audio solutions to know where the solution you come up with sits.

I personally don't trust some guys around here because they "gave up on CD players 3 years ago because PC audio is better". And they've changed their PC system 10 times over and still won't switch back for some sort of reference. And they they get into magic cords and magic paper and post "It's so hard man, I did it, I don't think YOU can, but I'm so great and I did it!" horseshit.

You have the PC experience and skeptical mind to be successful in PC audio.

Just remember that guys who spent $500 are happy, while guys who spent $5000 are still modifying power supplies and obsessing.

PC audio is still audio and audio is still an obsession of the mind for many.

If you want to put something together, let us know what you're doing and you'll likely get tonnes of valuable feedback.

I know I sound anti-PC audio lately but I am not - I love PC audio. I just recently thought I was swimming in the dark for far to long and wanted to get some perspective and try and "keep it real".

Before I start wallpapering my audio cave with magic paper...

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: Switched to PC audio 2 yrs ago - never looked back until..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 12:57:47
Confession is good for the soul.

Life is good.

Enjoy!

:>)

 

RE: Nobody said PC Audio was going to be easy..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 13:03:44
???
A Korg MR-1000 doesn't have ANY problems. And it's simple to use.

 

PC audio is like the X-files..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 13:30:27
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
You don't know WHAT to believe after a while.

Do you go with "The Truth is Out There" and battle on?

Or do you go with "Fight the Future" and get into vinyl and tube gear?

I guess I am questioning a lot of things in life being a new dad. Old philosophies are being turned up side down. Priority lists are inverted. Time for toxic energy is now zero.

Sudden ability to see things from a broadened or birds-eye-view perspective without getting caught in minutae or microdetail?

Priceless.

Cheers,
Presto

 

True dat. TK. True dat... (nt), posted on June 27, 2008 at 13:31:14
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
nt

 

Remember where you are..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 14:08:52
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
This is not some common sense website where people get something working and sounding ok and call it good. It's about obsessing about things that most people can't even measure - like jitter, and EMI and RFI.

Yes, this is where we put on the tin foil hats before listening.

So, you may not have any PROBLEMS with the Korg, no dropouts or latency issues or the like.

But is the wonderful detail you are hearing because of transparency or is it jitter induced noise you are just perceiving as more detail? Ah, you can't answer that because it's subjective. If you're "pro Korg" then you might say, "No, it's detail." If you're prosumer interface phobic like many guys here then you're sure to assume that it's a lack of attention to critical "audiophile" details in the design stage, things allegedly lost on those who actually MAKE and RECORD music and not just listen to it.

Cheers,
Presto

 

Ha!, posted on June 27, 2008 at 14:23:02
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
Excellent post, Presto.

"If you're prosumer interface phobic like many guys here then you're sure to assume that it's a lack of attention to critical "audiophile" details in the design stage, things allegedly lost on those who actually MAKE and RECORD music and not just listen to it."

Priceless. You win the Nail-On-The-Head Award again. :--)

 

RE: Remember where you are..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 14:45:18
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6580
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
Given the high incidence of "loud recordings" I would suggest that many of the people who record and make music should consult with those that listen.

 

Awesome!, posted on June 27, 2008 at 14:47:41
Good for you Presto! That's the right attitude man. And a belated congratulations to you and your wife. You're gonna be a great Dad. The fun is just starting . . . .

As far as the choice thing goes,

"Do you go with "The Truth is Out There" and battle on? Or do you go with "Fight the Future" and get into vinyl and tube gear?",

I say go with the flow, learn and discover. There's no reason why we have to choose one format over the other in absolute terms. Each format has something enjoyable to offer. Life is too dynamic to be wed to a strict set of rules or stuck in a rut. There's room in this hobby for cd players, vinyl, and tape. But keep your computer.

It's all fun.

 

Ha ha, I thought of this before..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 15:03:15
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
Two rooms.

Room 1 is a high-tech room with PCs and drivers and crossovers and measurement mics and high-tech and room correction... hours of fun learning about audio, measuring, jitter, DSP, digital data transmission, and what a "USB direct-I2S asynchronous DAC" is.

Room 2 is a reel-to-reel with an integrated tube amp and two speakers.

You're right - why limit ones self? :)

I must confess my newly minimalized room when less dials and knobs and intimidating digital equipment is veeeeeeery relaxing.

I fell asleep to "On the Mend" by the Foo Fighters last night. Man those guys can be mellow when they want to be... I think it has something to do with "quantity smoked"... if you catch my meaning.

Not that I condone that (cough cough) sort of thing. No children were corrupted in the making of this post...

Cheers,
Presto

 

Right. Not happening., posted on June 27, 2008 at 15:08:32
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
They're going to stop the compression/loudness war to sell records to people based on a silly prefence for "loud" and start appealing to 1% of their target market (us audiophiles) who know better and want sound quality?

You just cost your record label a bazillion dollars. You're fired! lol

But you get an award for dying a noble death based on principle.

Don't blame recording artists for doing what sells so they can afford the rent. To suggest they stop the loudness war is to stop appealing to the masses that, unfortunately, they rely on to survive.

But sure, I agree - the loudness/compression/clipping thing is just horrible.

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: no surprise, posted on June 27, 2008 at 15:51:58
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
"but even with this DAC, I prefer its spdif input over its USB input."

That's why Scrith's post ticked me off. He's in a glass house throwing stones... And that's why I'd never cough up $1200 for a Benchmark DAC1 with USB input. If I was to gamble that kind of money, without hearing a unit, I would puy my coin into a Wavelength direct-I2S Asynchronous DAC... just to see what all the fuss is about! ;)

I wonder how many so-called high-end dac makers are using a run of the mill Burr-Brown USB chipset in isochronous mode to just "get her done"?

The truth is, without knowing the exact way that USB is implemented is just throwing money into a dark pit and hoping for the best. Sure sonics are the final test, but why go with tech that has not fully evolved yet? AFAIK, Gordon at Wavelength is on the bleeding edge of this stuff - he's the guy to watch IMHO.

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: Remember where you are..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 16:11:36
???
Obviously, you've never used a Korg...and I never said a word about detail. You might think you're entertaining, but I'm not entertained. "Remember where you are?" Perhaps you should take your own advice and not ridicule others, however warped you might think they are.

 

Different issue...., posted on June 27, 2008 at 16:19:34
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
....re: loudness and compression.

Having heard playback "straight", without EQ or compression, through some very fine studio gear and superb pro software, I was suitably impressed. It was most interesting to hear recordings being further "unraveled" from the CD playback itself, as the gear and software improved.

The loudness and compression issues are a direct relationship to/with the engineer(s) manipulating the recorded information. In the end, it's about implementation, and who's doing it (or not). I'll take mine "straight"....but then again, my favorite recordings seem to have the least amount of manipulation. MA Recordings and Water Lily are just two great examples. And I love jazz recordings that show a minimalist hand....on these, Jim Merod and Bluport Jazz come to mind. I'm not a pop music buyer, and consciously avoid redlined recordings. I really like the Foo Fighters (and others), but do not want my brain to suffer.

 

If you like Foo Fighters..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 16:46:51
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
...and have yet to hear Disc 2 of the "In Your Honor" 2-disc album.

Well, you're in for a really big treat!

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: Remember where you are..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 16:49:34
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
Sheesh. You're touchy.

I was just saying that there are a lot of "prosumerphobes" here that would write your unit off the page before actually listening to it. That was my point. If anything I was defending your position - not attacking you.

But for the record, despite the fact that I'm here to entertain myself, I have mostly entertained and informed quite a few folks here in the last three years or so. So if you're going to critique a regular here, critique one who cares what you think.

If you want, I'll send you some funny seeds so you can put one in your ear and grow a sense of humor...

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: If you like Foo Fighters..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 16:55:25
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
I've always liked their positive energy, especially when I've caught them on TV live. But not having experienced the entirety of their albums, I am reluctant to keep my hand on the volume knob all the time....hence I've not purchased their CD's. Am I offbase?

 

Overstatements, posted on June 27, 2008 at 17:02:32
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 2090
Location: SF Bay area
Joined: February 6, 2005
Presto,

I think you have overstated your case on several points.

> Option a) is avoided by most here, except Lynx 22 series users ->
> the only PCI audio card users I am aware of that are both picky
> and satisfied at the same time.

In the past, there have been satisfied EMU 1212 and ESI Juli@ owners on this forum. I've used an ESI Juli@ board for nearly 2 years. No drama and good sound. You seemed to have dismissed anyone using a PCI soundcard other a Lynx as not picky.

Perhaps some forum participants used the forum to get them up to speed, make some successful choices and don't frequent the forum much now.

> All of these devices have two levels of jitter associated with them.
> THe first is the beautiful number on the test bench when fed by super
> clean DC, and the other is the real world number when powered by the
> noise-ridden mess INSIDE the PC.

This seemed to be in the context of option B. Some USB DACs are powered from the bus and others aren't. Are you referring to the digital input rather than power?

I'm a bit confused about what jitter you are referring to. Your remarks appear to refer to devices that receive digital data via SPDIF, USB or Firewire. Are you referring to the jitter on the input stream, the jitter on the clock line going into the actual DAC chip or the effect of jitter a s measured on the analog output from the DAC? Or are you simply referring to a listener's dissatisfaction with the resulting sound?

I've seen a few reviews of PCI soundcards that measured signal/noise with the card inside a real PC. They report numbers above 100 dB for the ESI Juli@, the EMU 1212 and the Lynx two. I have yet to see any blanket statements about the impossible environment inside a PC accompanied by actual measurements of the degradation of signal to noise or jitter on a digital output from a good quality card like the ESI Juli@, EMU 1212m or the Lynx two.

> PC audio is still audio and audio is still an obsession of
> the mind for many.

I had hoped that PC audio would be a return to rationality.

Bill



 

No you're dead on... but..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 17:09:35
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
You don't need a volume control for Foofighters.

They have two volumes. Mellow, and metal. That's why I suggested Disc 2 on In Your Honor. It's all mellow man! No volume anxiety problems on that disc!

Truth be told, the grinding metal stuff is really hard on my aging nerves although I will always be an Iron Maiden fan...

"The Pretender" from their latest album Echoes, Silence, Patience and Grace might be heavy for you at first, but DAMN that song is contagious. The timing of those guys is just incredible. They're just so amazingly tight and coherent as a group.

Never seen 'em live but if they're that tight live, I'd poop my pants.

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: Remember where you are..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 17:25:23
???
I understand, and you can see by my edits that I understand...although I didn't initially. I still, however, don't see why you want to make fun of the people you refer to. If they are, as you suggest, they're already suffering enough.

I apologize for not taking the time to read your post carefully initially. I tend not to read carefully around here because generally I find little to gain (there are exceptions). I'm more of a practical type audiophile (if there is such a thing)...I don't care about theory, measurements, accuracy, etc. All I care about is enjoyment. Stuff either sounds good or it doesn't and PC software/hardware is either pleasurable to use or it's not.

 

RE: No you're dead on... but..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 17:35:13
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
I don't mind loudness. I do mind every instrument mixed like it's on 11. Especially when the drums and bass are too forward. If only the engineers didn't mix as if all music was played back in a car, and of course, if they still had their hearing intact.

The sound guys at live concerts are the worst. You can tell if they've been doing heavy metal for years. A couple of these idiots ruined Elvis Costello and Jeff Beck concerts for me. Brain piercing sound. AAAAHHHHHHHH.

 

Call me General Ization, posted on June 27, 2008 at 18:24:02
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
Bill:

"In the past, there have been satisfied EMU 1212 and ESI Juli@ owners on this forum."

There have been people with Audigy 2's and onboard codecs that are satisfied as well. The prosumer cards get mixed reviews here - frequently. Maybe some are comparing them to onboard sound instead of a decent reference like a proven standalone CDP. My CDP is entry level audiophile gear - $2500 compared to dCS front ends. I bet some guys here don't even OWN an audiophile grade CDP to compare to. From the sounds of it, that's probably true.

"This seemed to be in the context of option B. Some USB DACs are powered from the bus and others aren't. Are you referring to the digital input rather than power?"

From what I know (and it ain't alot), jitter can affect DACs on PCI cards with analog outs, and it can affect SPDIF or AES/EBU outputs as well. How it affects USB is far less intuitive, and there are a number of different ways to use USB for audio transmission. I have read a lot about USB DACs and it's very common that reviewers or end users have something against the USB input versus the more traditional SPDIF or AES/EBU digital inputs of the SAME UNIT. Is this expectation bias (or plain paranoia about new tech) or is something not right with off-the-shelf USB tranmission methods? Why did Gordon at Wavelength go to such lengths to make a DIrect-I2S Asynchronous USB dac? What about his research into "commercial" USB offerings and the problems they often had? Things that make you go Hmmmmm...

"I've seen a few reviews of PCI soundcards that measured signal/noise with the card inside a real PC."

A high-school kid with an RMAA software suite can come up with nice tables of numbers and rank cards from 1 to 10 based on numbers and then proceed to use these numbers to align with his subjective listening experiences to make him look like... a professional reviewer. These reviews are not work the bandwidth they take up on the internet. I've got cards that you would think would sound like the voice of God's own choir that sound thin and sibilant despite measuring like a dream on an RMAA review. I suspect audio interface designers are the worst culprits of designing audio components that measure like a bastard and never bother listening to them.

Myself, I am starting to believe that PCI designs in general are based on the limitations of the electrical and radiated noise they are subjected to and I am far from being alone. I also think that because an audio interface exists outside the box it is not necessarily better. I think a poorly implemented digital out cannot touch a decent sounding PCI card for sound quality. I think a properly implemented external solution (like USB) might just be hard for most PCI cards to beat.

Of course, this is all my very skewed perception of things so take it for what it is worth.

I never did hear a Lynx, but most Lynx users seem to be stepping up from the middle to higher end prosumer market. I would really like to hear from Lynx 22 users who had PREVIOUSLY used a ESI, Emu, or similar "level" interface to hear what they say. Truth is, I think most of them would say the Lynx is just a wee bit more refined and quieter with less edge - the most analog sounding of the PCI card set. This, again, is third party "what i heard" hearsay information Bill - not my own experience.

So don't take it too seriously. I'm not an authority on this stuff and no electronics engineer. But I have been following this PC forum very closely for years now and sometimes I make generalizations on top of all of the generalizations. For those with prosumer devices that they claim to sound good, I am more inclined to believe them. If a $125 PCI soundcard can sound "pretty good" there is no reason why a $300 or $500 interface designed to record and monitor music can't be even better.

I think one can find a vertical line of price-to-performance ratio among audio interfaces, with a spattering of ones that are WAY overpriced for their worth, and others that are silly good value for the price.

I'm going back into my man cave this weekend to do some lengthy listening sessions to compare Windows drivers for a Burr-Brown 2704 USB chip in a cheap digital receiver versus an ASIO version of the driver.

And that makes me certifiably insane.

Cheers,
TMCI

 

Hey relax man. We're family here., posted on June 27, 2008 at 18:31:35
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
THis is a small litte group of nuts that obsess about computer audio. I'm the biggest nut of the group listening for differences between driver and output plugin versions. We're like family, and sometimes family members can play rough! ;)

I poke fun only because when I point the finger, three point back at me. I really respect all of the efforts of everyone here, that they challenge audiophile beliefs and want to try something different. I think of myself as the PC AUdio Robin Hood. I rob (information) from the rich and give (information) to the poor. I spend a lot of time working on posts helping guys with low-buck solutions many members on here would be inclined to ignore!

I also think many of us get caught up in "PC audio is better" and forget that the outside world is going to want subjective experiences of their own to back these statements up. IF they can't hear a difference, they'll think we'r all just nuts.

So I've been comparing non-PC solutions to PC solutions for some perspective lately. That might make a few people here nervous.

But they know I am a techno-geek and a PC audio enthusiast at heart.

We WILL beat standalone CDPs and we WILL do it for 1/2 the money and we WILL have all of the advantages of using a PC as a source. But not if we just accept anything that uses a HDD to play music as being definitively better.

SO, I apologize too, now let's dust off then get back into the fray!

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: Call me General Ization, posted on June 27, 2008 at 19:47:53
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 2090
Location: SF Bay area
Joined: February 6, 2005
> I never did hear a Lynx, but most Lynx users seem to be stepping
> up from the middle to higher end prosumer market.

So your extended rants are not based on having heard a Lynx card. Just what "prosumer" cards have you heard? Do you have any evidence about what Lynx owners previously used?

> A high-school kid with an RMAA software suite can come up with nice
> tables of numbers and rank cards from 1 to 10 based on numbers and
> then proceed to use these numbers to align with his subjective
> listening experiences to make him look like... a professional reviewer.

When you start to lose an argument, resort to insults. I think a review like that has far more value than your recent posts.

> My CDP is entry level audiophile gear - $2500 compared to dCS front
> ends. I bet some guys here don't even OWN an audiophile grade CDP
> to compare to. From the sounds of it, that's probably true.

A standard audiophile technique too. Claim that anyone that doesn't agree with you doesn't have good enough equipment to hear what you hear. Or in this case, what you know without even hearing the equipment in question.

> Maybe some are comparing them to onboard sound instead of a
> decent reference like a proven standalone CDP.

Do you know that? You seem to be determined to dismiss any possibility that others might have reached a ratiuonal and informed decision.

> Myself, I am starting to believe that PCI designs in general are based
> on the limitations of the electrical and radiated noise they
> are subjected to and I am far from being alone.

> and sometimes I make generalizations on top of all of
> the generalizations.

You certainly seem to generalizing with knowledge here. Not an engineer. Dismiss measurements. Haven't heard a Lynx card. Have it all figured out.

> I would really like to hear from Lynx 22 users who had PREVIOUSLY used
> a ESI, Emu, or similar "level" interface to hear what they say.
> Truth is, I think most of them would say the Lynx is just a wee
> bit more refined and quieter with less edge - the most analog
> sounding of the PCI card set.

So your opinions are based on reading the minds of those who have heard the Lynx card and some other "prosumer" soundcard.

> If a $125 PCI soundcard can sound "pretty good" there is no reason
> why a $300 or $500 interface designed to record and monitor music
> can't be even better.

Or maybe not much better. Or maybe worse.

In the past, I regarded you as a pretty rational audiophile based on your posts. You seem to have become very opinionated and rather free with insults lately.

Nothing wrong with stating an opinion. You started with very broad and very aggressive statements that turned out to be based on very little of your own knowledge.

Bill


 

RE: Well, don't take it the wrong way., posted on June 27, 2008 at 22:02:25
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12586
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
Hey P,

The lynx L22 is normally sold for $650 and the 2 series goes for between $900 and $1049 depending on the number of analog ins and outs. The 2b which i own is the cheapest because it has 3 pairs of outputs and only one pair of inputs...which for the pro market is less valuable than the version that has one pair of outputs and 3 inputs (a rare win for the audiophile). Scroll to the bottom:

http://www.jrrshop.com/lynx-m-177.html?osCsid=ca5100395b8625718e65301bce2ab9e2

ALso, the Lynx One might be something of a super bargain at $449. I have never heard anyone mention it so who knows.

FWIW, I dont have ANY plans to ditch the Lynx. I have about 5K to add to the system and outside of some PC tweaks and the thuneau software, I am putting that dough elsewhere.

I would like to think that for the most part, my system is the "knee of the curve" type system. Every component can be bettered, but you have to spend a bunch to do it. The Lynx fits into that.

Certainly you can find a place to try it and return it if you need to, but be careful, because I think you could find yourself keeping it....

I was in the Virgin store today looking for some CDs, and I saw their vinyl section. They had the Sexpistols and U2 on Vinyl. And for a brief second I thought I should get a turntable and buy some vinyl. But instantly I found myself snapping out of it and realized that I dont want to mess with that crap at all. PC audio is worth the convenience for me...completely worth it, and I for one have much better sound because of it.

 

RE: No you're dead on... but..., posted on June 27, 2008 at 22:48:15
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12586
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
Dead on Alan!

That is why I CAN'T go to live amplified shows. They always sound like crap.

I drove hours to see the Cult once, and it was so loud and distorted, I was pissed at them for months for allowing the sound guy to ruin their show. The freaking digital "meters" on the amps were pegged the whole time and never moved when they were playing.

Brain piercing is an understatement!

 

Unplugged is the bomb!! (nt), posted on June 27, 2008 at 23:19:34
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
nt

 

I'm hit and miss today Alan!, posted on June 27, 2008 at 23:31:39
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
Alan:

I've got some people liking my ranting and opionated border-line "anti-PC" blasphemy today, and others suggesting I should hang my head in shame.

Funny. I don't recall writing to impress or to provoke. I was just writing like I normally do. From the heart.

Maybe I am in a bad mood and don't even know it! ;)

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: Overstatements-no other?, posted on June 27, 2008 at 23:34:02
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
There is no other than Lynx 22 for this poster!

Lynx cards are good but not as great as they are held - plenty of people are lukewarm.

 

Nah....you're a hit!!, posted on June 28, 2008 at 00:09:55
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
I thought your posts today were witty, with just a pinch of the sardonic. If you're pissing people off (not every day, but once in a while), much of the time you're doing something right. I've recently incurred the wrath of the pitchfork-carrying populace myself.

Conventional wisdom doesn't like to be challenged. So, keep your Teflon suit handy at all times....it sounds better as well. Mine's connected via Firewire. :--)

 

No joke :-), posted on June 28, 2008 at 16:24:06
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 1169
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
The DAC1 USB is the 6th DAC/sound card I've used with my computer.

My previous DAC was a Lavry DA10 using the S/PDIF output of an Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 2 Turbo w/ SuperClock 4. The DAC1 USB sounded slightly better to my ears (and my wife's) in blind tests. I've also used a 2004 and 2006 DAC1 (which sounded different, because they keep upgrading that thing), an E-Mu 1212m, and an M-Audio Audiophile USB. I've also used PS Audio and Corda USB solutions for my headphones.

 

RE: No joke :-), posted on June 28, 2008 at 17:14:56
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
Hi Scrith. What do you use to drive your Dac1? Are you running usb or something else? I'm using cplay/asio4all/usb but I am limited by asio4all. Was thinking of a soundcard with 24/192 out on spdif to get the max out of the Benchmark.

 

RE: very timely post, posted on June 28, 2008 at 17:32:35
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37308
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
"To the poster that said no one said it would be easy...man, life is to short to put up with cludgey solutions to what should not be a problem in the first place."

I agree, but then again, the same could be said about setting up a vinyl rig.....

 

I Got To Be Careful......, posted on June 28, 2008 at 17:35:53
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37308
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
I just realized I coined the term subconsciously from "Maalox Moment"..... [-;

 

RE: No joke :-), posted on June 29, 2008 at 17:18:36
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
So Scrith:

Have you had a chance to compare the DAC1 in USB mode versus USB mode?
If so, what were you using for a SPDIF source, and how the two compare?

Obviously I'm doing more 'data mining'....

Cheers,
Presto

 

Answers, posted on June 29, 2008 at 18:05:05
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 1169
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
USB vs. S/PDIF: Well, the road to USB was a bit twisted for me. I started off comparing my E-Mu 1212m's S/PDIF output to an M-Audio Audiophile USB's S/PDIF output using a 2004 model Benchmark DAC1. The USB solution sounded better (in blind tests), so I stuck with it. I then upgraded to a 2006 Benchmark DAC1 (while still using the M-Audio USB-to-S/PDIF box)...this enabled me to use my old DAC1 on another computer (although it has been sold since then). I then picked up a Lavry DA10, and it won out (in a very close contest) vs. my 2006 DAC1, so I kept it (still using the M-Audio USB box). Then I bought the hype here and tried out an Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 2 Turbo w/ SuperClock 4 (which sounded SLIGHTLY better than the M-Audio Audiophile USB). Finally, I got a DAC1 USB, which sounded slightly better than the Lavry/EmpiricalAudio combination (and finally let me get rid of a USB-S/PDIF converter box, and those awful M-Audio drivers...keep in mind that Empirical Audio eventually got the USB setup that the DAC1 USB now has, which allowed them to get rid of the M-Audio drivers also).

What do I drive the DAC1 USB with: my computer via a USB cable. I am running Windows Vista 64-bit (so the warnings about needing to use ASIO or KernalStreaming instead of DirectSound do not apply to me...that is for the I-have-XP-and-all-the-internet-hype-makes-me-scared-to-get-Vista crowd). I use 24/44 or 24/96 output (depending on mood...each is a tradeoff) in Foobar2000 (using SRC to upsample when using 96K output).

If you are using a Windows-based computer, you would be much better off with Vista rather than XP for audio (yes, there may be other problems with Vista vs. XP. I am talking about audio here, for which there is no question whatsoever...Vista is better).

 

RE: Switched to PC audio 2 yrs ago - never looked back until..., posted on July 10, 2008 at 12:49:44
KlausF


 
I would not yet give up on PC audio. I remember reading the first post of John Svensson when he discovered the PCM2706/7 USB audio device. Funny it is, that back then he was all exited how much better it sounded than most of the transports he has heard. He squeezed every bit of performance out of this chip with a better clock and clean power. I e mediately had to build one of these myself and we where quite astonished that this simple chip with just a TDA1543 would sound a bit better than a tweaked Pioneer stable platter player. But after I had installed a tube output stage to the Pioneer it lost again. I tried hard to get the USB dac beat the Pioneer but it just did not sound as authentic as the Pioneer. In the mean time I had purchased a Oppo player to feed my projector a true digital signal and we all where surprised how good this $200 player sounded even in stock form. In resolution and low level detail it was better than either my Pioneer or my DDDac. After I build a custom output stage with THS4032 opamps it sounded better than anything that I had in my house up to this point. I was then determined to never go back to PC audio again.
Because I was looking for a crossover solution for my horn system I was reading allot of posts on different forums and Scott Endlers post on here caught my attention. He was basically saying that there is no need for an expensive dac if you just use a passive out mod to the AKM dacs on the Behringer DCX2496 unit. A few months later I read that Alex Peychev of APL uses four of the AKM AK4396 dacs in his flagship player that reportedly eats the Wadias alive. Searching the net for this miracle dac a Bluegears b-inspirer 7.1 soundcard came up that had one on each channel pair. I soon had one to play with just out of curiosity. After I applied the Scott Endler mod to the soundcard all the people visiting me where floored by the sound this baby put out. We are still in disbelief how a simple modded soundcard can sound this good and I did not even get to install any dedicated power supply to it yet because it just stopped working when I tried to install a Tent clock. I still don't know why it did not take the Tent clock and what reason it had to not work again when I put the original crystal back in it.
Even in this early stage of tweaking it was notably better than the tweaked Oppo which in turn is a better than my DDDac as I mentioned before.

The result of this tweaked soundcard tell me that there is more to PC audio than clean power and jitter.
My boards for my AK4396 dac came in and I will test four of them in parallel mode on the PCM2707 USB to I2S converter just to see if it will sound as good as the tweaked Bluegears.
If not I guess I have to buy another b-inspirer and give it some TeddyRegs and a new clock.
The plus of a tweaked Bluegears would be, that I have eight channels of the same high quality which makes for a fine PC crossover dac solution.

As for me I am not going to go back to CD players again. Especially considering the thought of getting up every time I want to listen to another song on a different CD.

No one should disregard a PCI soundcard as a high quality digital source only because the pros say it's not gonna work good.

Regards,
Klaus

 

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