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cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player

41.183.0.21
Posted on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
cMP

The open source high-end Memory Player

December 2007

Music delivery is perfected. cMP (cics Memory Player) delivers memory playback (without RAMDisk or other utilities) thereby eliminating disk interference during playback.

In creating cMP, its critical objective was the implementation of fundamental designs that:

  1. Remove disk traffic interference during playback without having the inconvenience of manually loading files into a virtual RAM drive, etc..
  2. Ensure time critical sample delivery to the external DAC. Streaming of samples from precision upsampled (to 24/96) sound buffers to the soundcard must be fast, lean and mean! There's no room for any bottlenecks or overheads here, otherwise we risk increasing jitter and compromise Bit Transparency.
  3. Provide better power supply and remove the need for a ferrite core on the mouse connection.
  4. Provide flexibility to choose any player (Foobar2000, Winamp etc.).
  5. Further minimize the Windows footprint to that more optimal than XP's Embedded SP2 operating system as used in large scale commercial applications. This provides the foundation for the 2nd design goal.
  6. Offer a CD/DVD-ROM drive without impacting sound quality.
  7. Offer proper remote usability as locating that mouse cursor from a distance is cumbersome.
  8. Contain costs but also allow for a complete elegant one box solution.

Such designs in theory should render a stunning sonic experience. Its implementation however was a massive challenge. Did this theory meet the sonic expectations? Yes as evidenced in cMP's bit perfect performance and ultra low jitter.

How does it sound? The most descriptive word that comes to mind is emotional. cMP's sonic purity is truly profound. It grips those musical lines across any genre with remarkable precision. Soundstage improves, there's better layering and even more ambient information. Bass is tighter, with natural vocals & instruments.

FRONT



BACK



More pictures and screenshots are available from the cMP documentation link provided below.

FEEDBACK

Pre-release testing by music lovers located all over the world yielded further insight and perfection of cMP.

  • A music lover based in the US with limited or no computer training:

    This has been a great way to learn about computers in addition to making something very useful for enjoying music.

    Compared to my ###### (read expensive high-end traditional CD transport), even with some tweaking and learning left to do, this sounds much better. Dynamic, yet relaxed (effortless?).

    I started listening last night at 7:00 and had to force myself to go to bed at twelve. Amazing spaciousness. It is truly getting close to GREAT analog and is much better than average analog already. It is simply amazing.

    I found your instructions easy to follow ONCE I understood what I was being told to do. To repeat, I have never done anything like this before, so your instructions were clear without resorting to "hand holding". I think the process was easier than you warned. I kept saying to myself, "that wasn't so bad!"

    After cMP:

    My only audio friends are very analogue-centric. Sometime in January I am going to have them over to audition the cMP. I think they are going to be amazed. Of course, I am confident that JULI@ is going to be the icing on the cake. If this takes the whole thing another step closer I think they will be grateful that one can enjoy listening to CD's as much as LP's. Of course, in many ways your approach does things even LP's cannot do. It is becoming a toss-up, but the best kind; one can enjoy either one equally well!

  • A music lover based in Europe with more than 2000 CDs:

    the quality of sound reproduction is quite amazing. My motivation for building was that I am not wealthy and could never dream of, let alone buy, a high-end CD player. Even this project was considerably more than I could properly afford and I began it with some trepidation. But it's been well worth it.

    After cMP:

    I spent several hours last night testing the latest cMP. I did several A/B runs with cMP on the one hand and Foobar launched via old batch files and reading direct from disk on the other. There is no doubt in my mind that the sound using cMP is a significant improvement even with my modest setup.

    The quality is quite stunning, significantly better than previous. (My partner agrees with this - she's no audio junkie but she is an informed music lover.)

  • A music lover based in Australia:

    I have been wanting to relay to you my own experience with your methods and give you some feedback . So far, I have found your approach produces very good results so I must convey to you my thanks and appreciation. At some point soon I will formalise my thoughts and send them to you or post them. I believe what you have done has become an excellent resource/asset to people interested in PC Audio.


FEATURES

  1. Disk traffic interference during playback is eliminated. Advanced RAM playback is based on available physical RAM (as reported by Task Manager or Process Explorer). This means up to 4GB (XP's limit) can be used allowing for 24/192 RAM playback. Recommendation is to use 1GB RAM (which yields available physical RAM of ~830MB - enough for any CD at 16/44.1). cMP achieves memory playback via the system cache and not through a simulated virtual drive. This approach removes Windows disk I/O overheads (irrespective of whether disk is physical or virtual) hence, it's more optimal.

  2. Extensive Windows & Player (Foobar2000 or other) optimizations yielding much lower jitter and bit perfect delivery. System level optimizations are done at runtime (which cannot be achieved using .bat files and utilities like Process Explorer). cMP is designed to work with 32 CPU cores!

  3. Open architecture. cMP allows for any player to be used: Foobar2000, XXHighEnd, Winamp etc. (player just needs to handle .cue files like foobar2000 otherwise play entire .wav). Any ripper software can be used (as long as it conforms to .cue single file standard like those created by EAC). Additional flexibility is provided, for example use cMP to drive your HTPC playing any movie from any genre (a .cue file for each .iso file is needed).

  4. All .cue files are processed by cMP which means the player focuses only on playing the CD. In Foobar2000, the album list control component is not needed. In techno speak this is called separation of concerns.

  5. Power delivery to the mobo is improved by further reducing interference. The need for a ferrite core is removed.

  6. Full function remote control using a wireless mouse is achieved. Your entire library can be navigated: play any CD, eject it, jump to any track or change volume. This is achieved using just ONE mouse button: the Wheel! Use the mouse as a normal one (left-click) or hold it in your hand (like a remote control) and wheel away using your thumb. Of course other buttons are used for more convenience. There's no need to find that tiny mouse cursor and left click! (You can still do this if needed).

  7. Your entire library that you so diligently ripped is fully compatible with cMP. No proprietary / lock-in stuff here which forces you to re-rip. Just point cMP to your music folders containing .cue and .wav files (or flac or other). cMP supports any content file as long as cue files are defined for them. For flac content files, the known EAC bug of adding an additional .flac suffix to the content file's name must be removed (otherwise your cue's content file directive will not be found).

  8. CD/DVD-ROM drive is implemented without compromising playback quality. For the purist, this can be unplugged without opening computer or rebooting.

Bottom line: cMP is a (one box) highly advanced memory player that's easy to setup and use. cMP's core strength lies in newly developed operating system software components (built in c/c++) that uses XP SP 2 as a foundation. Windows Explorer is done away with while cMP takes over and more. Bit perfect delivery is achieved yielding an ultra high resolution of more than 23.5 bits (a limitation in measuring instruments prevents measuring cMP's perfect resolution). DAC's have yet to achieve this resolution (as a minimum of 141db SNR is needed)! For cMP's bit perfect measurements, see (Bit Perfect Measurement & Analysis ).


GETTING STARTED

Visit cicsMemoryPlayer.com where you'll find detailed easy to follow instructions and much more.

Ensuring clean AC power delivery to equipment is very important. For DAC, pre-amp and amplifiers, use a dedicated AC circuit. For source equipment, use another AC circuit as this is where cMP's main PSU should be powered from. Use another less important AC circuit for powering cMP's 2nd dirty power inlet. Use of quality power cords and line conditioners is recommended.


Special thanks to those that provided such brilliant feedback and suggestions during pre-release testing. cMP's software is at version 1.0b as more feedback is desired. Your input, insights, criticisms, experiences and suggestions all help.

Thank you.

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
RME cards - workaround or not?, posted on April 11, 2011 at 09:34:11
Eunegis
Audiophile

Posts: 49
Joined: August 26, 2010
 Hi. Me again.
Don't want to clutter the Asylum, but I need to know briefly:

Is the RME cards' workaround still mandatory?

----- citation -----
cics:
An issue with RME soundcards
A workround is needed when using the latest RME soundcards with cMP and there is no sound output even though setup seems correct. They require firmware initialisation which is done with configuration routines launched by Windows Explorer. cMP disables this.

Switch cMP to XP mode and restart the system to initialise the RME firmware;
Play a CD using Foobar2000 to check that the soundcard is working;
Start cMP, switch to cMP mode and restart – do not shut down as power to the soundcard will be lost and the firmware will need to be re-initialised;
The system can be re-started as often as necessary but this cycle must be repeated if it is powered down.
----- end -----

Well, that's ridiculous to a certain extent! I don't want to fiddle around that way with a soundcard like that. So the following popped up in my mind:
what if not cMP mode is used but XP mode instead with cMP in XP's autostart folder?
Wouldn't that initialize an RME card on every startup and then start the cMP shell to strangle explorer down again (same result as native cMP mode but with initialisation)?
Were there any side effects on sound performance to be expected?
(I guess if my suggestion were so smart it would have been made by cics already... ;-P )

TX

 

RE: Keyboard and Soundcard, posted on April 11, 2011 at 14:19:17
tsearay
Audiophile

Posts: 90
Location: Ontario, GTA
Joined: January 17, 2008
 Lynx created ASIO, the AES16 is an excellent card full 24/192. The juli has more support for power supply mods in the forum. If you are going to do level 3 power supply mods consider the juli. T.
No worries!

 

RE: Keyboard and Soundcard, posted on April 11, 2011 at 18:12:51
tmmaslar


 
Thanks for the replies!

I guess I will go with the Julie@ due to better support on the forum.

 

RE: RME cards - workaround or not?, posted on April 12, 2011 at 08:39:46
Eunegis
Audiophile

Posts: 49
Joined: August 26, 2010
 OK, the question semms to be rather uninteresting for most inmates. No Problem.

But for those who plan to use a modern RME soundcard I can say meanwhile: its a total nobrainer!

I couldn't resist trying out the one that was lying around at my home (which I didn't use so far because I had plans for some other solution). And after all the struggling with the inferior Cantatis and the unavoidable ASIO4ALL driver I found out that installation of the RME 9632 was a breeze. It was shocking how fast I got the first tone out of it.

cPlay configures automatically with this card. It appears to be totally stable. It has quite a few adjustment options, but they are nicely presented, so digging inside the drivers guts is unnecessary.

And the RME workaround mentioned by cics is unnecessary, too - at least in my system (which is built exactly as per cics' present recommendations).

I don't know yet if I'll keep the card. But for anyone who is interested in it and doesn't know how reliable it might be I would answer by now that he/she could safely and comfortably grab it and listen. I'm a beginner, too, but this was really easy going.

Cheers

 

RE: hate to be a pia to you cics but..., posted on April 12, 2011 at 13:57:19
ulder


 
bump

 

Crystal tweak for horizontal motherboards, posted on April 14, 2011 at 09:08:55
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 After reading so much about the crystal experimentation on the AA TWEAKS forum I decided to give it a try.

One place that seemed (to my ears/psyche) to make a noticeable difference was to sprinkle some small crystals on the MB. Mine allows this since it is in a horizontal position. Those with vertical oriented boards will not have as easy a time with this!

Used rose quartz & tourmaline. I know it sounds crazy but there is something happening here and if one can believe what is said the MB is a great place for these things.

See what you think.
Bye,

Rick McInnis

 

"/UsePMTimer", Hotfixes 835730, 895980 & 896256, Intel Core 2 Duo, XP-SP2/SP3 Redux..., posted on April 14, 2011 at 14:05:46
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 2011-05-23: ATTENTION New Readers - this initial post is more confusing than it is informative. Please skip to subsequent posts in this thread.

Hi Everybody

Please help sort out the confusing/ conflicting advice regarding WinXP and alternatives to using the default TSC timer. Having sifted through the original thread ( http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=86432 ), I'm at a loss to decide "what's best".

Are we really discussing two different mechanisms for "improving" the sound of a cMP2 ? Can they be used together ? Should they be ?

(BTW, my cMP2 is built on the GA-G31M-S2L/ E7200 platform, running WinXP-SP2).

The Microsoft KB articles I've found don't offer enough detail to form a definitive answer. While there's evidence the Intel Core 2 Duo processors can be affected by using the PM Timer (not just AMD CPUs), it's not clear if SP3 has this fix rolled in or not.

Microsoft describes using the "/UsePMTimer" switch by itself to cure TSC drift here -> ( http://support.microsoft.com/kb/895980 ).

However, in this article ( http://support.microsoft.com/kb/835730 ) the Status section states "This problem was first corrected in Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2." Furthermore, this Hotfix does not specify manual intervention to Boot.ini or the Registry (for WinXP). Just install and enjoy.

From that you might conclude that SP2 and above would not suffer a problem (when running on the affected CPUs) and the "/UsePMTimer" switch should have no effect. How then do we interpret the very real improvements reported by hfavandepas and theob ?

Can anyone summarize the points pertinent to running a cMP2 (on Core 2 Duo, under XP-SP2), and offer an opinion on "what's best". That would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

It's really simple., posted on April 14, 2011 at 14:47:42
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Just try it and see if you like it. If you don't go back.

 

RE: It's (never) really (that) simple..., posted on April 16, 2011 at 15:04:51
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 [2011-05-26: updated for clarity]

Hi theob

Thanks for the quick - and encouraging - reply. No other WiseOwls have chimed in, so I took another stab at understanding the variables, before "just trying it".

(Actually, I did add the switch by itself to my boot.ini weeks ago, and like the change it makes... BUT I want to understand more of what's going on).

OK... today's Search-n-Read-n-Ponder expedition suggests there are two different mechanisms at work:

a) greater timing accuracy using the ACPI Power Management timer ("/UsePMTimer" switch)

b) toggling the effect of the ACPI Processor Performance States policy (KB896256 patch)

MS KB Articles

1) MS Article ID: 835730 - Last Review: August 29, 2007 - Revision: 4.3 [ >> please ignore <<< ]

This article talks about "On a Microsoft Windows XP- or Microsoft Windows 2000-based computer that uses IntelÂŽ HyperThreading Technology or Enhanced SpeedStepÂŽ Technology, blah blah blah..." / "This problem is caused by the incorrect interpretation of the timing values that are returned by the system when hyperthreading is enabled, and the computer power state changes."

The instructions for Windows 2000 require manual intervention (add registry key and "/UsePMTimer" switch boot.ini) , but make no such requirement for WinXP. Later the article states "This problem was first corrected in Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2". Curiously, XP-SP2 does not add the switch as part of the upgrade.

>> KB835730 is a red herring as regards cMP^2 under XP, and the Core 2 Duo (and beyond) CPUs - please ignore <<

=======================================================

2) Article ID: 895980 - Last Review: December 5, 2010 - Revision: 10.0 [tell XP to use ACPI Power Management timer]

This article mentions a possible issue saying "A program that uses the QueryPerformanceCounter function to query system time may perform poorly... / Multi core or multiprocessor systems may encounter Time Stamp Counter (TSC) drift when the time between different cores is not synchronized. The operating systems which use TSC as a timekeeping resource may experience the issue. Newer operating systems typically do not use the TSC by default if other timers are available in the system which can be used as a timekeeping source. Other available timers include the PM_Timer and the High Precision Event Timer (HPET)."

For greater precision in your cMP rig, tell XP to use the PM_Timer. The Workaround section describes how to add the "/UsePMTimer" switch to the boot.ini file. BTW, there is no mention of SP2/SP3 being required for this change to take effect.

=======================================================

3) MS Article ID: 896256 - Last Review: February 22, 2011 - Revision: 7.0 [toggle ACPI processor performance states policy]

This hotfix was written prior to SP3, and applies only to XP-SP2 installations. If you have SP2, you should download and execute the patch "WindowsXP-KB896256-v4-x86-ENU.exe".

The 896256 hotfix was rolled into XP-SP3 (see full list here http://support.microsoft.com/kb/946480), so if you have XP-SP3 - do not apply this patch - the "new" Performance States policy is already in effect.

Once you're sure the hotfix is resident in your system, you may want to disable the policy and evaluate the change - just to be sure your SQ is being maximized. See the end of the KB article for how to do this.

But wait... for a deeper understanding (and a little mystery) - There's More !

What's in SP2 already:
According to the article, "Because Windows XP was not originally designed to support performance states on multiprocessor configurations, changes are required to correctly realize this support on multiprocessor systems. Windows XP Service Pack 2 includes the required changes to the kernel power manager. These changes make sure that Windows XP correctly functions on multiprocessor systems with processor performance states".

To SP2 code we now add the Hotfix:
"This hotfix (896256) also addresses the following issues on computers that have multiple processors that support processor performance states:

- A possible decrease in performance on single-threaded workloads when processor performance states are using demand-based switching.
- The synchronization of the processor Time Stamp Counter (TSC) registers across processors when you use the ACPI Power Management timer on multiprocessor systems.
- ACPI C-state promotion and demotion issues in the kernel power manager."

Due to the point in bold above, you should apply the patch if you are still at SP2, and ensure the TSC registers are coordinated in your system.

Whether or not you have applied the XP-SP3 update, you still have to add the "/UsePMTimer" switch to boot.ini manually.

[BTW, this so-called "multiprocessor hotfix in XP-SP2" has been much discussed in other forums - see -> http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=222685]

=======================================================

Soooo... today I added the Throttle key, enabled it (value = 1), and was greeted by an immediate change to the sound. Then I disabled it (value = 0), and the sound returned to it's previous qualities. No drivers updated, no Hotfix applied, just the regkey to switch the policy behaviour of the OS (with the requisite reboots, of course).

Most peculiar results, if we believe MS that KB896256 ADDS to what is already working in SP2. The question becomes what was my regkey controlling if the kernel changes were not made for the "new" policy ?

I checked the file versions (hal.dll, Ntkrnlpa.exe, Ntoskrnl.exe), which show I don't have the updated components - yet the SQ change is obvious.

Hmmm - more "undocumented features" ? I need to install this patch !

=======================================================

Summary:
Go nuts tinkering.

The "/UsePMTimer" switch has an effect on it's own, and will change SQ independently of the Throttle regkey setting.

Keep in mind, to experience KB896256 properly, you should have added "/UsePMTimer" to your boot.ini file.

My first impression of the "Throttle Effect" (despite not having applied the KB896256 patch !):
it creates a more immediate presentation... "the stage" comes a little forward and fine details/ textures are revealed to a greater degree.

On first acquaintance I like it, but extended listening is needed to judge if it's better - or just different. And once my system has the patch properly applied, it could be a whole new world. Or maybe not.

Try it and report what you hear !

Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: It's (never) really (that) simple..., posted on April 17, 2011 at 06:43:25
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 very impressive research. so do you like it better with revisioms to the boot.ini file or through the throttle effect key? btw I had to go back/forth several times before I settled with usepmtimer. at best its very dynamic, detailed at worst its edgy.

 

Using the HPETimer or the TSC timer and throttling the processor spreed., posted on April 18, 2011 at 11:23:17
hfavandepas
 Hi Grant,

Thank you for studying this subject thoroughly.

I also did read these articles. But these articles do not address problems that are directly related too audio quality imho.
I also don’t know if these mentioned problems and there fixes, have any impact on audio quality in our cMP setups.

But from reading on the net, I understand that:
- In XP one can chose between 2 timer sources.
XP choses by default the TSC timer. But by adding the /usePMtimer swith too the boot.ini XP uses the HPET.
- I also know that the High Precision Event Timer was developed some years ago because better timing was needed for audio en video purposes. Win2000 and WinXP don’t use it by default as both OS-es where developed before the HPET was developed.
- I also know that Vista, Win7 and modern Linux distro’s use the PMtimer by default.
- I also know that in the MoBo-BIOS the use of the High Precision Event Timer MUST NOT BE DISABLED, otherwise the OS can’t use it.

So I didn't research if these fixes have any relation too audio quality.
Too me the question is:
* is there any difference in audio quality when using the HPET or when using the TSC (Time Stamp Counter) as timer source in XP?

So it essentially comes down too Theo’s approach: try it, and see if you like it.

Throttling the speed of the processor and enabling this feature in the OS is an other subject imho.
I can see how throttling the speed of the processor effects sound quality.
But I don’t want too use this throttling feature.
My topic only concentrated on if there was any sound quality difference when using different timer sources: HPET <-> TSC in or cMP setups with XP sp2.

My findings on sound quality where the same as Theo’s findings.


Mark

Edit:
May be this remark is needless but I'll make it anyway:
- in a correct cMP setup the HPET is disabled in the BIOS.
So don’t forget too enable HPET in the BIOS, when testing differences in sound quality between TSC and HPET.

 

Linear psu question, posted on April 19, 2011 at 02:15:29
Jolida
Audiophile

Posts: 329
Joined: June 26, 2009
 I have made a 12v linear psu to power up the 12v p4 line on my cMP. The unit is about 2 feet away from the load (p4 pin). I have used 10,000uF caps for the filter capacitor & 1000uF for the output capacitor after the 7812 regulator. Since the wire from the output cap to the p4 pin is roughly about 2 feet long (and twisted), do i need to place a small cap close to the load????

Junaid

 

RE: Linear psu question, posted on April 21, 2011 at 14:30:12
Mihaylov
Audiophile

Posts: 355
Location: Moscow
Joined: March 11, 2010
 No.
Serge.
http://cmp2-mihaylov.narod.ru/

My cMP2: Windows XP SP2 Ru, GA-H55M-UD2H, i3-530, Corsair CM3X160C9DHX 1GB, system drive - Transcend IDE FLASH MODULE TS2GDOM40V-S FAT32, ESI Juli@, full linear PSU, NAS - WD My Book Live

 

So Many Timers... So Little Guidance..., posted on April 22, 2011 at 12:51:24
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Mark (...and other Lurkers)

Thanks for the "Thanks"... research is such a solitary activity, it's nice to share with an appreciative audience. Based on your post above (especially the HPET item), I was prodded into more digging and wish to offer some clarification to what's been said previously. Now, to business...

As I stated before, I'm discussing two different mechanisms which will change SQ under Windows XP:

1) choosing between TSC timer (default) or the ACPI timer

2) Enable/ Disable the effect of KB896256 patch

First
Let's talk about Windows XP and the timers in a modern PC. There is the PIT, the RTC, the APIC timer, the ACPI timer and most recently the HPET was added. Whew.

See the MSDN article "Guidelines For Providing Multimedia Timer Support" for an excellent summary of these timers and their limitations. [last updated: September 20, 2002, http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463347.aspx]

This (the HPET) would seem to be good news for cMP2 users, were it not for this assertion [from https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/High_Precision_Event_Timer]:

Operating systems designed before HPET existed cannot use HPET... The following operating systems are known NOT to be able to use HPET: Windows XP,[note 2] Windows Server 2003, and earlier Windows versions.

[note 2]: Windows XP, SP2 knows the HPET timer (as a device with PNP0103 identifier). When detected (for example, on Intel DQ45CB motherboard), Device Manager (START / SETTINGS / CONTROL_PANEL / SYSTEM / DEVICE_MANAGER) shows "High Precision Event Timer" device in "System devices" branch. But this device has no driver and is not used at all.


OK, just to be crystal clear: Windows XP CANNOT use the HPET. No doubt this is why the cMP BIOS optimization page says to disable HPET support.

So the best clock reference we can get under XP is the ACPI timer (also known as the PM clock). It is invoked with the "/usePMtimer" switch in the boot.ini file. In my setup, it makes an obvious change to SQ compared with using the default TSC - and for me - it sounds "better".

The choice is between TSC <-> ACPI timer (a.k.a PM Timer).

Second
Mark said: "Throttling the speed of the processor and enabling this feature in the OS is an other subject imho."

Well Mark, sorry for the confusion. This actually is not changing the speed of the CPU - although the names of the regkeys could easily give that impression. It refers to a Hotfix issued December 19, 2006 by MS in KB896256 (under the excruciating title: Computers that are running Windows XP Service Pack 2 and that are equipped with multiple processors that support processor power management features may experience decreased performance). In some forums it's referred to as "the Multiprocessor Hotfix in XP-SP2".

A careful reading of the article [http://support.microsoft.com/kb/896256] shows there is a new Performance State policy behaviour. It further shows how to add a registry key to disable the behaviour. This is the "Throttle" key and "PerfEnablePackageIdle" DWORD I mentioned earlier.

It is a second, independent way to change SQ under XP-SP2. I'm still evaluating whether I like (and will keep...) the Throttle Effect. It's easy enough to enable/ disable with a pair of .REG files and a re-boot, so extended listening time will tell.

I hope this clarifies the issues, and the two independent tweaks we can use to change the SQ of our cMP2 rigs. "Better" can only be judged in the context of your individual setup, but here's two ways you might get there !

Cheers,
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

Kernel Optimization: /timeres Redux..., posted on April 22, 2011 at 16:13:18
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hello cMP-ers

In poking around the Boot.ini innards, I've had occasion to (re)consider the "/timeres" switch. There's a great resource describing the all switches at -> http://smallvoid.com/article/winnt-boot-ini.html.

In this list, "/timeres" parameter is described thus:
/TIMERES=number - Specifies the resolution of the system timer in a multiprocessor environment. The number is 100s of nanoseconds, the supported values are 9766, 19532, 39063, 78125.

Hmmmmmm... looking at the Kernel Optimization page on cicsmemoryplayer.com, the suggested value is "9800".

So I thought I'd "just try it".

Hmmmmmm # 2 - "9766" seems to improve upon the "9800" value. As a benchmark, I removed the /TIMERES completely and yeccccch - THAT definitely alters SQ !

Can somebody else please just try it, and report back ? In the meantime I'm going to do some flip-flop listening and see if I can determine whether it's me (a trick of "expectation") - or the SQ that's changing.

Thanks for playing...
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

I tried this..Ithink its MAJOR..:), posted on April 22, 2011 at 18:03:48
ArdRi



I have been trying to compose the best manner of describing what I am hearing.

I am listening to an iMusici 24/96 download from Linn.com but also tried this with Duke Ellington's Blues in Orbit and Zinman w/ The Tonhalle's Beethoven's 3rd with the cplay resamplers to 96khz.

The thing I am trying to describe is a sense of better defined and sustained features in the sonic shape the sense that the sound vibrations have much greater definition,separation and sustained longevity where their full expression can be discerned.

The music appears far more real with a truer sense of form and cohesion.

I have preserved a few items not used in the full cMp2 set up but had the BIOS settings for CPU and Memory down just kept the USB enabled as I'm using a monitor on that machine but its a virtually brand new Gigabyte H55 usb3 mb with Corsair XMS 1333 RAM (2GB becasue I forgot to yank one stick), Intel i3 540 and a Seasonic X650 PS. XP Pro SP3 ..

cmp enabled; startup=none,AWE and all other OS minimizations set with one usb root hub and controller disabled for the pcilock switch. Used "/UsePMTimer

Its playing into the Resolution Audio Opus 21 DAC over SPDIF over a Canare terminated Belden Digital cable.

I think its a definite Score! Thanks a million.

 

RE: Kernel Optimization: /timeres Redux..., posted on May 1, 2011 at 00:36:55
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 Hi gjw
can you explain me better how SQ change erasing at all TIMERES in the boot.ini?
Is it better for you or not?
Which kind of difference?
THX a lot
Daniele

 

RE: New CPUs & mobos using latest 32nm Sandybridge architecture (2011q1): Intel exiting from PCI - PCIe preferred, posted on May 1, 2011 at 10:54:16
Mihaylov
Audiophile

Posts: 355
Location: Moscow
Joined: March 11, 2010
 Hi cics! You already tried a new Sandybridge platform?

Serge.
http://cmp2-mihaylov.narod.ru/

My cMP2: Windows XP SP2 Ru, GA-H55M-UD2H, i3-530, Corsair CM3X160C9DHX 1GB, system drive - Transcend IDE FLASH MODULE TS2GDOM40V-S FAT32, ESI Juli@, full linear PSU, NAS - WD My Book Live

 

Nice find! I've used "/UsePMTimer" in boot.ini for a week now - there's improvement., posted on May 2, 2011 at 06:07:09
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 I also changed timeres to 9766 (which I did together with "/UsePMTimer"). Interestingly, I found changing cPlay's DSP buffer to "Tiny" gave best results (more organic/natural sound).

Will test this setup for a while. Thanks.

 

RE: Nice find! I've used "/UsePMTimer" in boot.ini for a week now - there's improvement., posted on May 2, 2011 at 08:00:57
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I've been using pmtimer for a while and prefer it. Changing timeres to 9766 from 9800 and using tiny buffer improves it yet again.

 

Why don´t they all get it ?, posted on May 2, 2011 at 09:42:05
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Dear cMP Forum,

I´m not getting superstitious, but with my spare efforts, I´ve tried to spread the genious of the cMP Project.
-and only hailed....well, a lot of raised brows.

How come ?

I know it take a little effort to understand cics approach and the website is not terrible inviting either, but even with the promise of stunning audiophile results it just seem that most people think it´s another bogus product....

Where is the right angle to describe this phenomenal project ?


Any thoughts ?


kind regards
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: Why don´t they all get it ?, posted on May 2, 2011 at 10:41:40
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 648
Joined: December 18, 2008
 Hi,

I think that a lot depends on your "adience".
Most audiophile people are NOT very good with computers. Those who are not against liquid music often prefer sort of plug'n'play solutions - a Mac Mini or a notebook. They may be confident with switching various cables, but not addressing the technicalities of a cMP2 system.

Even if one can follow the cMP instructions almost blindly, I believe a certain experimentalist attitude is required in a typical cMP user.
Furhermore, do not forget that in general this type of "digital" knowledge - master clock, latency, ASIO...- is not so spread out.

As I am "spreading" cMP2's word in Italy, in my experience I can say that I am having more followers and recognition in a forum with PC-based roots rather than "old fashion" audiophile-based forums.

Definetly, in order to acquire credibility "spreading" is required at various levels: PC/Multimedia forums, Audio forums, Audio magazines, Electronic DIY magazines, end users, audio shop demonstrations (I have to do one in the next few days)...

On top of this, I believe that a typical audiophile user is a bit of a loner, whereas the cMP2 project is a sort of workgroup...not many people have this "community" approach.

 

RE: Why don´t they all get it ?, posted on May 3, 2011 at 09:46:45
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 I agree with Bibo01 for the most part.

Audiophiles IME are more into looks than sound these days. You see that on the Planar asylum. Sad but it seems to be true. And they tend to want to throw money at the project. Cmp2 doesnt offer any of that...no bling, no easy gratification. Add to that the fact that some of its ideas are so advanced that the mainstream audio and computer people dont get some of its concepts that it easy for an audiophile to be daunted and just buy a lappy and a usb device and think it is the cats meow. And pretty picts too.

In addition it is easy to reach bad conclusions with the cmp2 website. Many people download cplay and it ends there because they hate the gui. They miss the part about cmp being the gui, and that cplay is not supposed to be stand alone. (Audio Pharaoh comes to mind)

And some buy the juli@ card and make conclusions with doing none of the cmp2 tweaks and using all the wrong hardware (Barondalla comes to mind).

IMHO the best way to get converts (which honestly Leif I dont know why you would care) is to just bring one over and let them listen with their dac. Or invite a local club to come by and listen. Or if you know some audiophiles get some of their cds and rip them into your cmp2 box and bring it over. Once they HEAR the benefits and see how easy it is to use then they will find a way to get past the diy stuff.

And here is a conspiratorial thought. With minlog wouldnt it be totally possible to just have a site with an image file of a cmp2 build? People could download and viola instant cmp2 box. If the hardware is right shouldnt that work....sure it is totally illegal and I wouldnt do anything like that (you know first hand I am a goody goody) but I can THINK it right?

Arent there some countries where this kind of thing could be hosted legally??

Or couldnt there be a way to make the changes on an existing OS. Isnt there such a thing for Windows 7...the Fidelizer or something. You download it and run it and it tweaks things. Cics might be able to create a program that does most of the heavy lifting.



Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Why don´t they all get it ?, posted on May 3, 2011 at 11:39:58
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 People could download and viola instant cmp2 box.

Without commenting on Win OS licencing issues (they were covered in this case), it is quite feasible to do what you say. A month or two back, I sent another AA inmate a CD containing an imagefile of an XP-SP2, cMP^2 build with minlogon, AWE etc pre-configured but, because his motherboard and soundcard were different from mine, no bespoke drivers loaded.

The recipient copied the imagefile onto his boot partition, loaded the chipset and soundcard drivers, performed the Autoruns thingies and, after testing, disabled one or two inessential services. It all went pretty smoothly.

He did of course have to buy a copy of my imaging utility but I believe there are freeware equivalents. In any case, attempting a cMP^2 build without a decent imaging utility (and preferably a docking station as well) is asking for trouble.

No, I'm not planning to offer this as a service.

 

They are lazy, posted on May 3, 2011 at 13:47:59
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 as was said before, they want to be able to plug it in and it works. It does not seem to matter that it works well or that it is set up to perform at its best ...

Most "audiophile" systems sound terrible, no matter how much money has been spent. If not terrible (I know that in many cases this is an exaggeration) then you have the phenomenon of expensive components sounding about as good as those big boxes you can get at the stores. (some of which sound very good considering what they are).

This hobby started out as a DIY activity since there were few options for those wanting to get something better in the marketplaced. Sure, the super expensive stuff can sound good it is just that most of time it doesn't due to the owner's inability or laziness, and not knowing what good sound "is".

So, why be surprised?

We are a lucky little fraternity that cics has shared the knowledge he has gained through his avocation.

Just like a low budget movie that is superior to the multi-billion embarrassments; we are lucky that we do not have money to throw at our systems and have to work at it to get what we want and in so doing we often end up enjoying superior sound to those who simply spend money versus working at getting good sound from every aspect of their system.

In my case, I could not afford any of the highly regarded transports when cics fist published THE ART OF COMPUTER TRANSPORTS and that is what made me want to try it We have certainly come a long way since then and I am very glad I followed cics in his endeavor. My system has become so intertwined I could not insert something else to use as a transport for comparison but from what I have heard I think it is obvious that one can get as good a result from following cics's recipe as any of the absurd transports.

Those of us interested in DIY enjoy learning. I have learned more about computers than I ever would have otherwise and this information has come in handy for other purposes.

Like most things if the person is not interested without prompting nothing any of us will do will get them to try it.

 

RE: Nice find! I've used "/UsePMTimer" in boot.ini for a week now - there's improvement., posted on May 5, 2011 at 21:39:39
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 I can confirm the improvement of pmtimer+9766 in my two systems too. Now I'm testing the effects of kb 896256
Thx a lot
Daniele

PS: I'll try in few days (I hope) a new Sandy Bridge setting with an astounding cpu i3 2100T of 32W only joint with a MoBo Gigabyte GA-H67MA-D2H-B3(rev. 1.1)! Has anyone some experience about it yet?

 

Preferred Juli@ Driver as of 2011-05-04, posted on May 6, 2011 at 13:28:50
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 633
Location: NE Mississippi
Joined: September 21, 2001
 I'm getting ready to reload/re-configure my cMP this weekend. I've been using Juli@ driver 1.04 ever since I first loaded it up a few years back.

Any sonic improvement going to 1.05 or 1.23 (or any other version).

Greg in Mississippi

P.S. Sorry I've been scarce around here, been very busy since the beginning of the year or so. I've been doing a little work on my cMP over the past couple of months and will try to share some observations soon!
Everything matters!

 

... and other stuff too!, posted on May 6, 2011 at 13:46:51
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 633
Location: NE Mississippi
Joined: September 21, 2001
 Thinking further, anyone done any comparisons on the possible sonic consequences of FAT versus FAT-32 versus NTFS file systems and XP SP1 versus SP2?

Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!

 

RE: Preferred Juli@ Driver as of 2011-05-04, posted on May 6, 2011 at 16:50:38
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 1.05 sounds identical to 1.04 to these ears.

 

Kernel Optimization: "It's Not Just For Listening", posted on May 7, 2011 at 13:14:19
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 [2011-05-24: added link to identity of sample files]

Well... not content with just improving playback on the cMP machine, I wondered if the /TimeRes and /UsePMTimer switches could affect my DAW computer in a similar (positive) way.

This is machine optimized for pro-audio work (mixing, mastering, transfer & recovery from analogue) and is built on an Intel DP55WG/i7-860-2.80 GHz/4 GB RAM/Asus EN9600GT SILENT (video) platform running Win XP-SP3. ESI Juli@ and M-Audio Delta 1010 soundcards co-exist happily, with Juli@ serving as digital I/O between Benchmark ADC1 & DAC1 units.

Naturally, the OS is nowhere near as slimmed-down as in a cMP build, and so the question was "will it make a difference in such a busy environment ?". The short answer: YES !

Test Case 1: I opened up a recent mixdown project (Nuendo v4.x @ 44.1K_24-bit) and listened carefully to the live playback from the session. Yes, just as I remembered it.

Next, I applied the boot.ini tweaks, rebooted and listened again. Ya-HOO, the mix sounded "better". Perhaps not quite as dramatic a change as on the cMP machine, but any improvement in my production machine is a big deal for me.

In the past I made a disturbing discovery: a file rendered from an audio app does not necessarily sound "the same" as the live playback from that app. Yikes... think about the implication - when finessing tiny details in a complicated mix your choices can be smoothed over in the rendering. I hate when that happens. (another discussion for another thread)

Test Case 2: With this in mind I wondered if the "better" I heard with the kernel optimizations would survive the mix-n-render step. Well, instead of telling the whole story, here's a chance to play along... download these two samples from Dropbox and hear for yourself:

Sample1 -> http://db.tt/dB8A7op
Sample2 -> http://db.tt/62gTGKs

The tune is a single I recorded/mixed with some friends, which attempts to balance SQ against the need to compete with modern production trends. The only difference in the two files is one was rendered with kernel-tweaks, one without. Which one do you find is "better" ?

The Secret of their origin is revealed in the accompanying PDF document. (better not to spoil the fun by telling you here !)

Secret Identity revealed -> http://db.tt/77AlWR6

Conclusion: It seems to me the benefits of higher precision timing can be had in any Windows XP environment, with just a little editing of the boot.ini file. Whether the improvement is useful to your situation can only be answered individually, but it's nice to know the option is there.

I know my DAW output will now sound better, all other things being equal.

Cheers,
Grant

ps: Keep in mind that SP3 includes the hotfix from KB896256, and as such XP will run using the "new" ACPI processor performance states policy. I did not change this behaviour for any of the tests on my DAW machine. For a lengthy read on this, see -> http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/8/88288.html

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: Kernel Optimization: "It's Not Just For Listening", posted on May 7, 2011 at 15:20:17
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Interesting post.

 

Using 1.07 for so long, posted on May 8, 2011 at 09:49:36
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 I no longer remember much about comparing it to the others.

I do think it loads much quicker than the original (.979) - effortless in comparison to having to hold your mouth just right with the one on the install disk.

 

Intel i3 2100T for the Sandy Bridge cMP2, posted on May 8, 2011 at 14:51:26
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 Hi all
Surfing the net, some days ago, I've bump into this incredible CPU: 32W only, half the power consumption of i3 530!
So, with no news about a similar existing cMP2 setting, I've search for a Mobo. Just some hours of of study and I've ordered a 1155 socket mobo, the Gigabyte GA-H67-MA-UD2H-B3, rev.1.1. plus a CPU cooler Thermaltake Slim X3
This is my "old" HW:
- OCZ Agility SSD 3,5 64 Gb
- Kingston KVR 1333D3N9/1G DDR3 10600 ram ( 1 ONLY)
- Seasonic X 650, the dirty PSU feeding CPU P4 (through a run of 4000 mF of Elna Silmic II, )USB, SSD and external HDD
- picoPsu 150 XT
- 1 Peaktech (12 V for pico and Asus Xonar Essence)
- 1 Peaktech( 5 V for Xonar Asus Essence)
Et VoilĂ  the Sandy Bridge cMP2!

First good new: the SSD with XP and cMP works plug and play!!! Just install the drivers for the chipset ( no Realtek, no video enhancer etc...). Migration from H55-H57 chipset is easy and safe: excellent!

Second good new: the improvement of power consumption of Mobo is astounding: with my old system ( i3 540+ GA H55-MA-USB3) peakteck (12V) shows 2,2-2,3 A. now 1,56 A. Also during the start operations current is never higher. Pwr consumption of Asus is 300 mA so new setting is spending only 1,3 A for the entire MoBo ( no P4).Now is easier to build a linear PSU!

Third good new: SQ improve in every parameter. I cannot believe it. Now must spend a while for burn in new components but every aspect of music reproduction is better: transparency, dynamic, resolution of low level signal, ambience, timbre.

First bad new: Mobo doesn't support PCI. Only the regular ATX form H67 has one or two PCI slot, but chipset has a direct connection with PCI-E only.
This is a problem but this seems the trend for the future. PCI is in exhaustion!

Second bad new ( or not?): BIOS is not so manegeable like the previous. The Underklocking is not possible and the undervolting is limited.
But it' difficult to think an heavy undervolting in a so "spare power" CPU
Here my setting. Lower than these the mobo doesn't start.
Last, I've applied all little upgrades of gjw audio: they works very well

































 

So how do you output Audio without a PCI Soundcard?, posted on May 8, 2011 at 15:23:18
ArdRi
 Funny to see btw I have the same MB/Chip currently with a Seasonic X650 PS..

 

RE: So how do you output Audio without a PCI Soundcard?, posted on May 8, 2011 at 15:43:44
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 Sorry
I forget to write that I get a Xonar Asus Essence STX fully modded
( Burson discrete opamp, Silmic II and Rel cap capacitors, newclassD regulators) for an "all-in-one" transport. It's a PCI-E Soundboard
I dislike separate digital devices

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on May 8, 2011 at 18:39:03
golo
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Location: South Australia
Joined: November 25, 2010
 Hi cics,
Your cPlay/cMP combo is very exciting. I have spent hours for several nights at browsing it and, of course, I'm very tempted to give it a go.
But first I have a few questions starting with the most important one: how should I post my questions? I've found that it's very difficult to go through the forum as nearly all the thread are titled 'RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player' which doesn't give anyo clue on what it is about. As I've got questions which might also be of some interest to others should I create as many new threads as topics?
Thanks and 'Bravo'
Golo

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on May 8, 2011 at 20:40:09
golo
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Location: South Australia
Joined: November 25, 2010
 cPlay/cMP:
- 24bit/32bit?
cPlay specs: Media Format.........................Stereo only
WAV (16, 24, 32 PCM; 32 float)
FLAC (16, 24, 32 PCM)
cMP: Ensure bit-perfect delivery of precision-upsampled (24/192) data via a soundcard to an external DAC with no compromise in jitter performance.
Therefore what can the cPlay/cMP combo play 24 or 32-bit audio files?
As a commercial audio CDs/files listener it doesn’t bother me as, to my knowledge, no 32-bit audio files are available on the market (for now). But as a recording engineer who processes his audio files at 32-bit it would be a plus to be able to listen to them at their native resolution ie 32-bit.
On top of it nowadays are available several new 32-bit DACs.

- Digital volume: Offers high quality 64 bit double precision digital volume control (in 0.5db steps). What that’s mean within a 32-bit computer?
are we still in the ‘-6dB attenuation equals a 1-bit loss’ scheme?

- RAM: the lowest (256Mb) the better BUT 4Gb the better for 24/192 playback!!!
But if everything is being upsampled to 24/192 what does it mean?

- ‘plug-in’ is processed AFTER resampling. Does it mean that DRC correction filters are to be in 24/192?

Softwares:
- I intend to use DRC > use of the VST plug-in at 24 or 32-bit?
- I intend to use a DVD optical drive to be able to quickly listen to whoever’s calling in with CDs/DVDs. Might I be able to listen to a CD ‘live’ thru the cPlay/cMP?
- I intend to use DC7 to capture vinyl into computer, process the RIAA correction in the computer domain and then play it thru cPlay/cMP; is it possible?
- for all of the above can’t the processes being implemented BEFORE resampling?

Hardware:
- is there any advantages in using ‘fan-less’ internal PSUs or ‘fan-less’ external PSUs instead of the recommended ones, which are ‘fan-with’ and internal PSUs?
- a lot is said about powering the soundcard on its own. But mine is a ESI Juli@ and, to my knowledge, is powered from the mobo with no other option. How to do it?

 

RE: Intel i3 2100T for the Sandy Bridge cMP2, posted on May 8, 2011 at 22:40:18
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 648
Joined: December 18, 2008
 Hi Daniele,

well done! Less power consumption is good news for cMP!

A few questions -
1) Did you migrate from old official Gigabyte MB to this one without reinstalling?
2) Did you leave ACPI on S3 for a reason? Is it related to no CPU underclock?
3) What's the exact consumption on P24? Please specify what you have on it that draws power.

As I told you in a different conversation, the just released Q67 (also Q65) chipset microATX motherboards do have native PCI support. That is the one I am waiting for...
Furthermore, are you saying that your H67 motherboard supports PCIe 1x for your Asus Xonar Essence STX sound card?! In the past cics gave his concerns for coupling sound card and CPU on PCIe 16x...

 

RE: Intel i3 2100T for the Sandy Bridge cMP2, posted on May 9, 2011 at 05:37:24
Mihaylov
Audiophile

Posts: 355
Location: Moscow
Joined: March 11, 2010
 Hi! Whether it is possible to install CPU Clock Ratio below x25 for i3 2100T?
Serge.
http://cmp2-mihaylov.narod.ru/

My cMP2: Windows XP SP2 Ru, GA-H55M-UD2H, i3-530, Corsair CM3X160C9DHX 1GB, system drive - Transcend IDE FLASH MODULE TS2GDOM40V-S FAT32, ESI Juli@, full linear PSU, NAS - WD My Book Live

 

Did you F1 in BIOS for more choicces?, posted on May 9, 2011 at 11:26:11
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Not sure if you had used GIGABYTE MB's in the past.

Thanks for your report.

One would think with lower inherent power consumption that some of the de-tuning steps might not have the same importance?

 

Maybe there is not an F1 for more choices here, posted on May 9, 2011 at 11:46:22
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 I did notice the ADVANCE CPU CORE FEATURES which allows you to use only one core, along with other things that will correspond to earlier MB's recommendations.

I am inringued by the CORE CURRENT LIMIT and the other power limiting things. Whether they allow you lower limits is not explained in the manual.

For me, PCI is a requirement since I am using a modded JULI@ that I have no desire to replace.

 

New Bios Setting of Sandy Bridge cMP2, posted on May 9, 2011 at 15:25:35
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009











Hi all
I've simply forgot to set ACPI suspend type to S1, so it was impossible downclock the CPU without an immediate CMOS reset.
Now it's possible and new pictures showns the lower value that this MoBo permit. Obviously I send a big "grazie" to Bibo 01 that has identified immediately the problem.
I've settled my PCI-E soundcard on X1 slot.
Resuming the current absorption of this new system:
P24: 1,25- 1,30 A
P4: n.a. ( my old combo i3 540 + H55MA-USB3 was only 300 mA)
Asus Xonar Essence STX molex at 12V: 300 mA
Asus Xonar Essence STX molex at 5 V: 700 mA
I confirm that migration from H55-H57 is immediate, no need to reinstall XP and/or cMP, only install the chipset driver.
Unfortunately my Conrad Johnson decided to die after an hour of beautiful listening session! Now, waiting for it, I must listen with transport that feed straight on the Graaf. Combo sounds very well but I cannot judge on difference between this new setting and the old one.
Last but not least, I've got the impression of a greater stability of this MoBo, every BIOS change was sure, without any problem. No fake start, no reset of CMOSand I repeat that the settings showns in these pictures are the lower possible.
Daniele

 

RE: New Bios Setting of Sandy Bridge cMP2, posted on May 9, 2011 at 17:58:19
Mihaylov
Audiophile

Posts: 355
Location: Moscow
Joined: March 11, 2010
 It's ok but the current consumption of P4 is still very interesting...
Serge.
http://cmp2-mihaylov.narod.ru/

My cMP2: Windows XP SP2 Ru, GA-H55M-UD2H, i3-530, Corsair CM3X160C9DHX 1GB, system drive - Transcend IDE FLASH MODULE TS2GDOM40V-S FAT32, ESI Juli@, full linear PSU, NAS - WD My Book Live

 

RE: Maybe there is not an F1 for more choices here, posted on May 9, 2011 at 22:38:30
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 648
Joined: December 18, 2008
 For your Juli@ you may be interested in Gigabyte GA-Q67M-D2H-B3 motherboard. GB is probably about to release a whole series of Q67 chip based motherboards.

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on May 10, 2011 at 00:21:30
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hi Golo and welcome.

I'll try to answer what I can for you, and hopefully some one will chime in where I misstep.

Therefore what can the cPlay/cMP combo play 24 or 32-bit audio files?

Both shouldnt be a problem. And IIRC cplay needs a card that supports 32 bit. I think it pads everything to 32bit. Do a search on the xonar card and the issues with cplay as the xonar only supports 24 bit.

- Digital volume: Offers high quality 64 bit double precision digital volume control (in 0.5db steps). What that’s mean within a 32-bit computer?
are we still in the ‘-6dB attenuation equals a 1-bit loss’ scheme?


Well since cmp2 is predicated on a 32 bit xp, it means it will work :). I think the vc is why things are padded to 32bit. Kind of like Wadia does with their volume control where one throws away bits that dont matter. Anyhow cics had a post on the volume control and if you search for posts from him then it might explain it. FWIW I DO use the vc and run from the computer to amps. The vc is pretty transparent IME.

RAM: the lowest (256Mb) the better BUT 4Gb the better for 24/192 playback!!!
But if everything is being upsampled to 24/192 what does it mean?

I think that is an old line. This project has evolved and at one time the WHOLE song was read into memory in one chunk, so 24/192 FILES not 16/44 realtime upsampled needed that memory. Though now things are different and files are read in chunks. 1gb is fine and probably the lowest you can find anyhow.

- ‘plug-in’ is processed AFTER resampling. Does it mean that DRC correction filters are to be in 24/192?

I think so. Playmate is an inmate who has a ton of experience with room correction and maybe he can correct me if I am off. But you dont HAVE to upsample at all and if your vst is limited to something like 24/96 then just do that. One thing that isnt in the docs AFAIK that is tricky is that cplay will ALWAYS sample if the frequency is different than file. For instance you set cplay to sample to 96k. If the file is 96k then no resampling is done. But if it is 44 or say 176, then it up or down samples to 96k. The latest version will show this in the top left so you know.

- I intend to use DRC > use of the VST plug-in at 24 or 32-bit?

Not a problem.

- I intend to use a DVD optical drive to be able to quickly listen to whoever’s calling in with CDs/DVDs. Might I be able to listen to a CD ‘live’ thru the cPlay/cMP?

Problem. Cplay only plays .wav and flac. You might know this but the .wav files are hidden on a cd and referenced by .cda files which cplay wont play...and you are missing the whole point. The cd drive mucks up the sound just by being installed, and the benefits of cmp2 are lost playing from a disk anyhow.

- I intend to use DC7 to capture vinyl into computer, process the RIAA correction in the computer domain and then play it thru cPlay/cMP; is it possible?

Not sure what DC 7 is. It might work though. See a proper cmp2 box will have the windows audio service stopped and some programs just dont tolerate that. you may be able to get it to work by starting some services. Or you might want to have a normal windows partition so you can use dc7 and then switch to cmp2. Though try xp mode and see what happens.

- for all of the above can’t the processes being implemented BEFORE resampling?

Not quite certain but you dont HAVE to resample at all.

- is there any advantages in using ‘fan-less’ internal PSUs or ‘fan-less’ external PSUs instead of the recommended ones, which are ‘fan-with’ and internal PSUs?

The advance section talks about REMOVING those fans once everything is underclocked and undervolted and stable. There is no problem running fanwith psus without their fans in this build using the recommended hardware. Though my last build I did buy a seasonic fanless psu that I love, especially because you can remove unneeded cables.

- a lot is said about powering the soundcard on its own. But mine is a ESI Juli@ and, to my knowledge, is powered from the mobo with no other option. How to do it?

I run a Lynx card which it seems IS problematic to power separately. But the Juli@ is different. Look in the advanced section #7 for the Juli@ and #3 for the psu question above in the following link:



Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on May 10, 2011 at 00:38:55
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 648
Joined: December 18, 2008
 Just one little correction -

Asus Xonar latest drivers do work with cPlay.

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on May 10, 2011 at 09:14:37
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hi Bibo01,

Thanks for the correction. Good for asus. That seems like a great card.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

Thanks for the prompt!, posted on May 10, 2011 at 14:08:19
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 One more thing to do!

 

Looks like it offers very little BIOS flexability, posted on May 10, 2011 at 14:19:52
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 maybe the owners manual is REAL early and not accurate.

If this is true, very disappointing.

 

HA65M-D2h-B3 looks like a better choice, posted on May 10, 2011 at 14:29:44
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Much simpler board, only two memory slots.

BIOS looks like what we expect from GIGABYTE.

Now, when will these be available?

 

RE: Maybe there is not an F1 for more choices here, posted on May 10, 2011 at 14:32:10
Mihaylov
Audiophile

Posts: 355
Location: Moscow
Joined: March 11, 2010
 Gigabyte GA-Q67M-D2H-B3 is not interested for cMP2 system as it's bios is very lite w/o underclocking and other advanced settings (see manual http://download.gigabyte.us/FileList/Manual/mb_manual_ga-q67m-d2h-b3_e.pdf).
In this sense it is much more interesting ASUS P8Q67-M DO http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8Q67M_DO/
Serge.
http://cmp2-mihaylov.narod.ru/

My cMP2: Windows XP SP2 Ru, GA-H55M-UD2H, i3-530, Corsair CM3X160C9DHX 1GB, system drive - Transcend IDE FLASH MODULE TS2GDOM40V-S FAT32, ESI Juli@, full linear PSU, NAS - WD My Book Live

 

RE: New Bios Setting of Sandy Bridge cMP2, posted on May 10, 2011 at 15:53:50
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 A little follow up about dual core utilization.
Like the previous i3 530 and 540 I've used, with the ASUS Essence is mandatory activate both core of CPU. With this last i3 is the same. Both core are needed!
With one core is impossible to listen for music, there are a lot of drop-out.
I've found GA H67MA UD2H-3B a good MoBo, with a BIOS well settable and stable and an excellent Sound Quality.

 

RE: to helpfulDawnrazor, posted on May 10, 2011 at 19:54:39
golo
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Location: South Australia
Joined: November 25, 2010
 Thanks Dawnrazor,
It took me 2 full reading of your post to 'digest' the info. I'm still struggling with the 'expert' jargon. Could you translate in layman language what the following means:
- 'IIRC' as in "And IIRC cplay needs a card that supports 32 bit."
- 'to pad' as in "I think it pads everything to 32bit"
- 'FWIW' as in "FWIW I DO use the vc and run from the computer to amps"
- I assume that 'vc' stands for 'volume control'?

Cplay only plays .wav and flac. Does it mean that Cplay only plays already stored audio files either in .wav and flac? Therefore CD live playback has to be done outside cmp2 as cmp2 doesn't read .cda files. Correct?
But let's say that I'm working on a piece of music on Adobe Audition which works at 32-bit with either .wav or flac files can I output the current file through Cmp?
Same with DC7 (http://www.diamondcut.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1), can I output the current file through Cmp?

The alternative PSU for the sound card looks far too complex for my skills.
I'm afraid I'll have to pass on this upgrade unless I can find someone in Australia who can do it for me.

Thanks again Dawnrazor for your willingness to help

Golo

 

RE: Why don´t they all get it ?, posted on May 10, 2011 at 20:03:28
golo
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Location: South Australia
Joined: November 25, 2010
 Hi Play-mate,
I'm new to this forum and I've been kindly answered by Dawnrazor after my first post. Dawnrazor wrote me that you are a 'DRC' specialist and he invited me to contact you on this topic.
As apparently you might already use DRC (FIR filter w/ convolver in your chain)I wonder if I could bother you with some questions?
Cheers,
Golo

 

RE: to helpfulDawnrazor, posted on May 10, 2011 at 20:48:08
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hi Golo,

It took me 2 full reading of your post to 'digest' the info. I'm still struggling with the 'expert' jargon. Could you translate in layman language what the following means:

LOL. :) Sorry for the jargon. Though most of the questions are not about jargon just lazy speech. Sorry for that.

- 'IIRC' as in "And IIRC cplay needs a card that supports 32 bit."

IIRC= If I recall correctly

- 'to pad' as in "I think it pads everything to 32bit"

Whatever the bit rate you feed it, cplay adds extra bits and it outputs 32bit. Well at least that is what the specs say and there have been problems with cards or drivers that dont support 32 bit.

I THINK it is similar to what wadia does in a general sense:

http://www.wadia.com/technology/technicalpapers/Digital_Volume_Control_2.pdf

'FWIW' as in "FWIW I DO use the vc and run from the computer to amps"

FWIW= For what it's worth. Yes, vc is Volume Control.

Cplay only plays .wav and flac. Does it mean that Cplay only plays already stored audio files either in .wav and flac? Therefore CD live playback has to be done outside cmp2 as cmp2 doesn't read .cda files. Correct?
But let's say that I'm working on a piece of music on Adobe Audition which works at 32-bit with either .wav or flac files can I output the current file through Cmp?

Correct in that cplay will not read from disk. YOu have to rip that disk and then it will read the resultant .wav or flac files.

If you have that file from audition saved then yes it should read it no problem if it is flac or .wav.

Same with DC7 (http://www.diamondcut.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1), can I output the current file through Cmp?

If by "output", you mean save it to disk and have cplay read it, then YES provided the program works without the windows audio service. I would test that and if it needs the windows audio service then just keep that running. It is possible to do most of the operating system tweeks but not have to do them all!

The alternative PSU for the sound card looks far too complex for my skills.
I'm afraid I'll have to pass on this upgrade unless I can find someone in Australia who can do it for me.

Yeah, same here! Do what you are comfortable with and no more. I certainly am using store bought psus, and will be doing the advanced one where the granite psu is replaced with an additional psu that will power the cpu too.

Thanks again Dawnrazor for your willingness to help

Golo. I dont have a choice! It is part of the cmp2 license to help :) Though if you compress the dynamic range of ANY of the files you create I will come and hunt you down!!!!! :) Why studios and artist think everything has to be LOUD is amazing to me.

As an aside here is a response I got from a band I complained to:

Unfortunately I can't offer you any additional choices as far as the mastering is concerned. We went through a number of different options when we had it done, and chose the balance between loud and dynamic that made sense to us.


Here is the wave form I was complaining about...see any dynamics in there??




Also cmp2 has a cmp mode and an xp mode. You will probably be best off doing your audition stuff in xp mode and then switch to cmp mode when you want to listen. In xp mode you get a desktop and it functions like a normal though minimal computer as many services are stopped. In cmp mode there is no desktop, just a playback gui. Or you could use the EXPLORE option in cmp. It will make sense when get the programs installed.

And by cmp2, I mean cmp+ cplay.

D

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Did you F1 in BIOS for more choicces?, posted on May 10, 2011 at 22:31:39
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 BIOS of h55/57 and h67 Giga mobo doesn't got ctrl+F1 function.
You'll enter straight on in the advanced setting only pressing end button.
BIOS setting of h67 is flexible like the previous model but the difference of power consumption and CPU efficiency make difference on the setting.
These characteristics are today the best available, IMHO, for a cMP2 project and the SQ of this new HW system is better than the older one.
Obviously this is my "audiophile" opinion, now I can only wait for some follow up about it

 

RE: to helpfulDawnrazor, posted on May 11, 2011 at 01:14:22
golo
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Location: South Australia
Joined: November 25, 2010



Thanks Dawnrazor,

Here is a link to the last CD I've produced http://www.siobhanowen.com/album_lilium.htm

Hope you'll be happy with the dynamics. Look at the 'picture' of the title track Lilium.
But of course I don't usually produce heavy metal!

 

RE: Why don´t they all get it ?, posted on May 11, 2011 at 01:31:45
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Hi golo,

also I´m happy to help where I can.
what´s the problem ?

L.
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: to helpfulDawnrazor, posted on May 11, 2011 at 04:43:58
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Wow Golo,

That looks great! I wish the groups I dig would get a clue!

I think though that even the Heavy metal fans have had enough of this stuff based on the reaction to Metalicas latest.

Good luck on your cmp2 box!

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

DRC, posted on May 11, 2011 at 19:56:56
golo
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Location: South Australia
Joined: November 25, 2010
 Hi play-mate,
Thanks for answering.
My problem is that I haven't found out yet clear answers to my questions regarding cPlay in general and with the use of DRC within it.

1)cPlay:
only work with an ASIO 2 compliant soundcard: does it mean that it won't work with an external usb DAC directly connected to the mobo's usb port ie it needs an ASIO 2 compliant soundcard in between?

b) resampling:
- does cPlay resample either through SRC or Sox or is there a way to 'unable' resampling?
- what 'resampling' means in cPlay: changing the sample rate or changing the sample rate AND the resolution (ie 16-bit>32-bit)?

c) cPlay offers 2 channel output mapping only: but it's said elsewhere that "6.Supports up to 3 ASIO soundcards with each having up to 100 output channels" !!! As most of DRC softwares allow for digital Xovers I'd like to know if cPlay can output more than 2 channels

d)cPlay with Juli@: in the cPlay Diagnostics window of the guide one can see that the Juli@ soundcard, which is 24-bit capable, has got ASIO Driver starting at 32-bit. What does it mean? Is cPlay 'upbitting' at 32-bit and then has 8 bits truncated when going through Juli@?

2) DRC
Further on in the Guide it is said that "cPlay supports use of a single VST plugin (up to version 2.4.2, 2-in/max 8-out) in 32 bit float precision. ASIO performance is maintained for 2-in/2-out plugins (stereo output). For multi-channel output, best ASIO performance is achieved when latency is 64 samples or less."
a) 32 bit float precision: does it mean that if I want to use DRC my filters are to be done at 32-bit?
b) 2-in/max 8-out: what "8-out" means if cPlay can output 2-channel only?

On a more general matter, when I'm working on a project on Adobe Audition at 32-bit, can I listen to it directly through cPlay OR do I have to save it, exit Adobe Audition and then open the saved file into cPlay?

That will be all for now!
Cheers,
golo

 

RE: DRC, posted on May 12, 2011 at 02:09:49
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Hi Golo,

Point for point answers :

1. (cMP & cPlay = ) cMP2 can run with an USB DAC via MoBo and asio4all, but asio4all and USB is limited in several regards. For multi channel editing FireWire is the better option.


b. the entire idea of cPlay is to upsample !
it´s interpolation technique is an integral part of it´s significant performance.
when input and output samplerate is the same, cPlay leaves the signal untouched.

c. when run with a (say) 6 channels ASIO soundcard, cPlay offers output to those 6 channels.
You obviously cannot squeeze more channels through your system than the amount of channels the hardware is designed for.
In the VST section of cPlay´s manual this is described and exemplified with the "allocator" crossover software.

d. the question about 24bit versus 32bit is only theoretical computer language, and has no practical sound relevance. even on a 64bit computer and a 32bit capable converter chip…..just scrub it !

2. ASIO is a protocol (a digital handshake or agreement) that is best understood as the player (cPlay) is becoming an integral software within the ASIO device.
VST is always single-client, whereby the VST software then becomes an integral software extention to the player.

a. no !
-floating means that for example a 24bit signal is treated as a 32 bit signal and mathematical "adapted" to 32bit precision.

b. read the VST section of the manual.
the number of channels is determined by the soundcard.
when I first started with this I used a 6 channel Lynx PCI soundcard and cPlay and its VST software recognizes this immediately.
Nowadays I use an external Lynx 8 channel DAC via Firewire and cPlay recognizes the external converter in the same manner : as an ASIO device.

You cannot use cPlay as a mixing tool or in connection with Adobe Audition.

In short you need a professional D/A A/D Converter to operate multiple channels. Go and talk to a Proaudio Store about your requirements. cMP2 is not the right platform for audio editing.

Hope this helps.

Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: DRC, posted on May 12, 2011 at 03:50:48
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 cMP2 can run with an USB DAC via MoBo and asio4all . . .

Interesting post - thanks.

Just for the record, while cMP^2 runs with pretty well any USB DAC that has its own ASIO drivers, for those that don't, the AQVOX generic driver gives much better sound quality than ASIO4ALL.

Also, several cMP^2 users do not use upsampling: I even know of one who sometimes does and sometimes doesn't as, it seems, the mood takes him.

Dave

 

RE: DRC, posted on May 12, 2011 at 16:34:47
golo
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Location: South Australia
Joined: November 25, 2010
 Thanks a lot play-mate,

You have answered a lot and it helped me to understand better what cMP2 does and doesn't.

I think I will stick with 2-channel (stereo) output for now just to get used to cmp2. One step at a time!

I saw you're using 'FIR filter w/ convolver' yourself. Is it for DRC purpose? If so could you develop: which DRC engine are you using to create your filters, resolution and sample rate of your filters etc?

 

Digital Room Correction, posted on May 13, 2011 at 01:55:36
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 948
Joined: November 21, 2008
 Hey Golo,

Digital room correction (DRC) is becoming much more interesting as real computers are gaining access into high-end playback.
-the early turnkey attempts got mocked quite a bit....

While such a system cannot turn a bathroom into a brilliant listening environment, it certainly can do a significant tribute for stereo imaging and "polish" some important acoustical issues.

I regard the "acourate" software to be the most versatile and the one with the most tune-able features, so that room and speaker integrate most optimal.
There is no idea in trying to turn a mid-fi speaker into a high-end one.

I wrote about it here :

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/17/171469.html


Kind regards
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

RE: Kernel Optimization: "It's Not Just For Listening", posted on May 16, 2011 at 09:03:07
chevron
Manufacturer

Posts: 8
Location: Derby
Joined: November 25, 2009
 Could not download files.

Sample 1 said url not found
Sample 2 found http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1783609/Little%20Hearse%20(sample2).wav but nothing happened just got blank page
Chevron

 

some guys at the Slysoft forum tried and measured it with reclock.: No HPET support in XP, posted on May 16, 2011 at 15:14:30
hfavandepas
 Hi Grant,
 
Sorry for the delayed response.

I red those articles too, but I was under the false impression that the HPET wasn't working in XP because of: at the time when those articles were written (2002 – 2003), there were no drivers available for the HPET hardware. But that impression of drivers not being available than: was false.

As your research correctly shows HPET under XP isn't working. (although HPET shows up in the device list)
I found a thread on the Slysoft forum where some guys are checking the actual clock speeds with a program called 'Reclock'.
When they check the clockspeeds with the 'Reclock' program, it shows that XP (sp2 and sp3) can not use the HPET timer.

See: http://forum.slysoft.com/archive/index.php/t-22236.html

The reported 'raw speed' frequency by the 'Reclock' program under XP is: 3,5MHz. That indicates the PM timer is used.
If the HPETimer was working under XP, than 'Reclock' should have to report a raw speed of 15MHz.
So these guys on the Slysoft forum thread also show, that your research is correct. No HPET support in XP :-(

I didn't had the time too test the MS hotfix as described in KB896256 on the impact on sound quality. But I'll get back on that one.

Mark

 

RE: So how do you output Audio without a PCI Soundcard?, posted on May 16, 2011 at 18:47:11
EmailTim
 Where did you get your tricked out Xonar Essence STX ???

Also, are any of the component upgrades for the SPDIF digital outs, or just the analog output paths?

Thanks,
Tim

P.S.
I pulled mine apart. There are 3 8-pin sockets under the RFI shield.

One I can't read, but the other 2 are JRC 2114D op-amps.

From the circuit board layout, these appear to be dedicated to the stereo analog outs (not the digital SPDIF out).

 

RE: Could not download files, posted on May 16, 2011 at 23:30:41
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Chevron

Thanks for taking an interest in the little listening test.

This is most curious. As a test, tonight I downloaded both files from another computer at a friend's house. No problem at all.

Perhaps it is a browser-related issue. I've had another friend complain about Dropbox downloads, and it's turned out to be the particular settings for his copy of Internet Explorer.

I use Firefox (as does my friend where I downloaded files tonight). These browsers are set up to ask where one wants to save files being downloaded. It may be that your browser defaults to a different behaviour when a .WAV file is downloaded (could have been trying to launch a player within the browser).

Maybe someone else has dealt with the same problem and can offer some insight.

Keep trying Chevron - I've confirmed the files are available, and can be downloaded to your HDD with appropriate browser behaviour.

Hope this helps...
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

RE: Could not download files, posted on May 17, 2011 at 09:39:57
chevron
Manufacturer

Posts: 8
Location: Derby
Joined: November 25, 2009
 Have now downloaded files & will report later after a listen.
In Firefox I had to change action for .wav to SAVE FILE using TOOLS/OPTIONS
Chevron

 

RE: I tried this..Ithink its MAJOR..:), posted on May 20, 2011 at 21:25:32
wlowes


 
I could not agree more. I wonder if the change varies based on system. In my case its almost transformational. It is like the computer just sync'd up to the DAC. A digital hash I did not know I had dropped away. Relaxed, and real are words that come to mind. At first symbols, bells etc just jump out and shimmer. Then it was clear that piano and strings have a whole new sense of relaxed reality. Drums and base as well. Liquid. A sense of being there.
I've been perfecting my tube output tda1541a dac. Its like it just got set free. Thanks for a great find.

 

RE: SSD - try a hybrid, posted on May 21, 2011 at 21:12:09
wlowes


 
Another approach is a hybrid SSD/HDD. I just popped one in. It has 500gb total capacity, and 4gb solid state read buffer. Seagate Momentus.

It appears to use the solid state for frequently used stuff. I got a good improvement in sound quality, and no hasstle.

before I optimized the system for CMP, I used it briefly as a web surfing machine. This hybrid drive was blazing fast.

On CMP is seems to boot pretty quickly. After that its the sound quality that counts.

I ust say I recommend it. At $120 cdn, it was a nice add in speed if you are using a laptop for CMP.

 

RE: Kernel Optimization: "It's Not Just For Listening", posted on May 22, 2011 at 03:07:29
chevron
Manufacturer

Posts: 8
Location: Derby
Joined: November 25, 2009
 sample 1 sounds slightly better than sample 2, but this is replaying 24 bit data with 16 bit dac so may not be a good way to compare them.

One might expect the Kernel Tweak to have influenced the data in the time domain (jitter), but running Waveform Statistics in Cooledit on the samples they are clearly not identical in the amplitude domain. To find out whether the Kernel tweak is affecting jitter one would need to use a low jitter sine wave test file.
Chevron

 

RE: So how do you output Audio without a PCI Soundcard?, posted on May 22, 2011 at 13:05:58
audiodan@tiscali.it
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Location: Cagliari - Sardinia
Joined: July 7, 2009
 Hi Tim
I don't use digital output so my modding was only for the analog part.
Maybe in future I'll post a short manual of ST/STX Modding in english, for a cMP2 analog use and not only like the original digital transport.
I've found this use astounding, it worth the effort. And you'll can forget any problem about cable, connectors, external DAC ( ultimately they grows up like mushrooms after the rain.....)
Daniele
Here you'll find the original italian threads

http://www.nexthardware.com/forum/cmp-cmp-cplay/72759-asus-xonar-essence-st-stx-parte-seconda-lupgrade-estremo.html

http://www.nexthardware.com/forum/cmp-cmp-cplay/72414-asus-xonar-essence-st-stx-parte-prima.html

 

RE: Sample File Listening Test..., posted on May 24, 2011 at 22:48:00
gjwAudio
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Toronto
Joined: March 11, 2006
 Hi Chevron

I'm happy you were able to D/L the files and listen for yourself. That's an interesting observation on the Waveform Statistics results.

Can you describe what makes the Sample 1 file sound better to you ? Try subtracting one file from the other and listen to what the "difference" is between them.

BTW, I've added a PDF to the Dropbox download links in the first post. It reveals the origin of each sample file.

Thanks for playing...
Grant

That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!

 

Effect of ferrite beads on dc power lines too P24, P4 and/or too Pico PSU’s, posted on May 27, 2011 at 15:03:22
hfavandepas
 Hi all,

After reading this thread: 'Pro or con: Are ferrite beads at the end of usb and/or spdif cables really necessary?'
(see: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=89660 ),
I did some google-ing too find a more specifc answer too this question than the genereal wiki-pages on ferriet beads could provide too me.

While doing so I stumbled upon this article ‘The Use Of Ferrites In EMI Suppression’ from ferrite bead manufacturer 'Steward’.
http://www.steward.com/pdfs/emi/technical/Use%20of%20Ferrites%20in%20EMI.pdf (also see link below)

On page 111 to 116 the article covers the use of decoupling capacitors together with ferrite beads too suppress PC board generated EMI that originates from the periodic switching of digital circuits. (see figures 19 to 23)

Seeing ferrite breads also being clamped on DC output lines on cheap AC-to-DC power supply’s, made me think:
* could ferrite beads placed on the P24 and the P4 power lines, improve sound quality?
(Just as smoothing caps are placed on the P4 line too improve sound quality.)

It also sprang to mind that placing ferrite beads on the 12 V volt AC power supple lines coming from a linear PSU that feeds a Pico PSU and/or the P4, also might further improve sound quality.

Are there any inmates using a cMP setup, who already tried this?

Since ferrite beads are cheap (1 – 3 euro’s depending on type/model) and ferrite beads are very easy too clamp onto the P24 and P4 DC power supply lines and/or too the 12 volt DC power supply lines coming from a linear PSU, I already ordered a few too find out myself if there are any audible effects. But it will take a few days for the ferrite beads to be delivered.

So meanwhile I’m curious if any other inmates already have tried too clamp ferrite beads onto the P24 / P4 DC power supple lines too suppress HF noise on these DC power supply lines. Or, already have clamped ferrite beads onto the 12 volt dc power lines coming from the linear PSU that feed a Pico and/or the P4.

If yes, my question is: did the ferrite beads have any impact on sound quality in a cMP setup?

Mark

 

RE: Effect of ferrite beads on dc power lines too P24, P4 and/or too Pico PSU’s, posted on May 28, 2011 at 06:16:40
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Ok Mark here is just a preliminary reaction/comment on this suggested tweak. I confess at being a high frequency freak in that I really enjoy listening to that portion of the spectrum in well recorded music. Anyway I initially misread the paper in that I put a ferrite bead over just the + cables of P4....didn't like it. It just sounded wrong. So I gave up. Then I re-read the article because its interesting and I discovered my hook up mistake. So hooked it up over the + and - portions of P4 correctly and there was a nice difference. BTW I hooked it around p4 just before the cap bank. On well recorded stuff (Morton Gould playing Billy the Kid, Ballet Rodeo and Grand Canyon Suite) the ferrite tweak added much depth and a bit of width to the soundstage and a bit more dynamics with a slight increase in air around instruments. On poorly recorded stuff (like the Ballet Rodeo above) it was just ok but on Grand Canyon Suite it was magnificient. So I need to run to Radio Shack to get more of these things for P24.

Nice tweak...you are becoming THE source of good tweaks for Cmp^2 on Audio Asylum! Well done.

 

Thank you. You might find these articles interesting too, posted on May 28, 2011 at 07:27:09
hfavandepas
 Thank you. You might find these articles interesting too

Hi Theo,

Nice too hear it indeed has positive effects on SQ. Can’t wait to try it myself.

I got the idea through reading several articles on the use of ferrite beads. Which made me think: why not try ferrite beads too suppress conducted noise as it is suggested in many articles written by professionals

It also made me wonder why audiophiles make such a fuss about radiated noise but hardly pay any attention too conducted noise.

I only have only one ferrite bead lying around somewhere in da house. But I can’t find it anymore. So I didn’t had the chance too try it myself yet. I’ll will have too wait until the ordered ferrite breads arrive at my doorstep.

If you red the article and you found it interesting, than you might also like too read this article on noise suppression in DVD player. Very interesting and with much lessons for PC users too.
http://www.murata.com/products/emc/case/household/pdf/d_4.pdf

Also you might find this article interesting. It’s about IC’s performance degradation ( reduction in noise margin and increase in clock jitter) caused by ripple and noise on the power supply pins. And what can be done too improve the power supply too these IC’s through applying decoupling capacitors and ferrite beads.

http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/tutorials/MT-101.pdf

Thankx for trying. I hope that other inmates start trying and experimenting too.
I’m specially interested in the combination of capacitors and ferrite beads.

I’ll get back too you when the ferrite beads have arrived and was able too experiment myself

Mark

 

RE: Thank you. You might find these articles interesting too, posted on May 28, 2011 at 08:01:52
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Just to be clear my cmp system uses 2 computer switching power supplies(ala cics recommendation). So maybe I had more efi/emi than those with a linear supply for p4/p24. But after my last post I went thru a frenzy of listening to all my favorites. Most fun I have had in a while. Thanks again.

 

RE: Effect of ferrite beads on dc power lines too P24, P4 and/or too Pico PSU’s, posted on May 28, 2011 at 11:52:07
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 633
Location: NE Mississippi
Joined: September 21, 2001
 Mark & Theob,

Thanks for the topic, articles/posts, and experiences using ferrites. Very helpful.

I had done an experiment this week that I'd hoped to post about this weekend... And this is a good prod for me to do that!

One thing I did a couple of months ago was implement an SSD for my Op System & my musical favorites (Thanks Mark, Rick, and others who pioneered this!). The rest of my library still resides on an HDD. When I did that, I grafted a 2nd SATA power connector onto the cable coming from the linear regulator on my 'dirty' supply. But I thought that there might be some additional benefit available by adding a separate regulator for each drive... And mounting each close to the drive right at the SATA power connector.

Last weekend, I built these modules/power connectors up using LT3080's as regulator chips & implemented them. They provided a useful SQ increase... Mostly audible to me as a slight lowering of the noise floor and increase in the noticable details. I had not expected it to be a huge change and it was not... Useful, well worth the cost in parts and time, but not something that should be on anyone's top-ten mods list.

But I've also been pondering the use of ferrite chokes on the power side of a computer music setup. This all started after I read Inmate Maxamillion's post (http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tweaks&m=174374) about the impact of using these chokes on the power cords of all the other pieces of equipment in your home that generate electrical noise... Mostly where there are motors, SMPS's, and/or microprocessors in computers and their power supplies, cell phone chargers, appliances, etc. I had a few chokes I'd gotten back in the late '80s & the 90's that I'd tried on audio equipment power cords & interconnects with at best mixed results... Generally everywhere I tried them back then, they didn't do much if any net good.

But putting them on all of the power cords of the items in my house that I listed above made a very significant difference in my system... Again, lowering the perceived noise. This made the highs much more defined, refined, and 'analog-like'. A nice un-expected result was a lowering of the 'mud' in the bass regions and increase in definition there too. I've yet to try the ones recommended in that thread from DigiKey... Need to get an order into them and see if I hear the same improvements Maxamillion observed.

But in a complex cMP setup (like mine with 11 different linear supplies), there are a number of 'dirty' supplies that might benefit from chokes. This is different than what I tried back in the '80s/'90s because most of my equipment then didn't have separate supplies for the 'dirty' vs the 'clean'... And the 'dirty' supplies then were just not as 'dirty' (think turntable motor or early CDP microprocessor control system versus a full PC for a cMP).

So I tried them on the raw DC power feeds to the HDD/SSD regulators/connectors and got a nice SQ pop there, subjectively larger in magnitude than originally installing the regulator/connectors (although I strongly suspect that without the local regulators separate for each drive, the difference would have been much smaller). Adding one to the 12v DC feed to the Zalman screen increased the effect.

I suspect the mechanism here is that the ferrites are reducing the noise feed back both into the power line and into other equipment (from HDD to SSD, from Zalman screen to the USB power as they share the same raw DC supply).

After that experience, I was thinking along the same lines as what you tried, Theob and you suggested Mark... Putting ferrite chokes on both the DC feeds to the rest of the 'dirty' components (USB power & P4) and also on each of these supplies' AC lines. I'm also planning to try them on the 3.3v, 5v, and 12v lines from my ATX linear supply to the motherboard and also my Juli@ & DAC supplies. All of these are linear supplies in my system and I'm not sure what the impact (if any) will be... But it's an easy & cheap experiment. I suspect the impact will vary based on where noise is being generated & what paths it can take. For example, I don't expect the same result that Theob had putting one on my P4 connection since I have a fairly-quiet linear supply powering it. But it still might be useful... Or not.

Another comment on the use of chokes in power supplies that I found interesting was here http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/update-to-the-musiland-power-mod/#more-1507.

So again, thanks Mark for starting this thread & posting links to a lot of good reference material... And Theob for contributing the first listening comments and data points.

I do think there's a lot more that we can do regarding noise elimination in our systems. In other posts, Inmate Elizabeth discusses using conductive foam to absorb RFI noise in her equipment. And then there's the 'Mask of Silence' & 'Stealth Mat' being used by Arcam to great reviews in their recent equipment. Search the web for references to these terms & you'll find info that suggests the 'Mask of Silence' is ferrite sheet applied to noisy IC chips and that the 'Stealth Mat' is something similar to (or maybe identical to) ERS cloth. All of these are readily available, the conductive foam and ferrite sheet from suppliers like Digikey & Mouser (but VERY expensive) and the ERS cloth from specialty audio component suppliers like Michael Percy & the Parts Connexion. I am sure there are some great applications of all three of these materials in our cMP machines.

Then there's grounding. I think I've done a pretty good job grounding my linear ATX/P4 supply, with all grounds coming back seperately to the motherboard ground. But I know there are improvements I can make to my 'dirty' supplies where my USB power is actually grounding through the power supply connection for the Zalman screen (as they share the same raw DC supply... Thanks to Rick McI for pointing this out!). A few comments on grounding & power supplies by Paul Hynes towards the end of this thread are worth noting & pondering :http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=89251.0.

And finally, here's another use for ferrites chokes that I haven't tried yet, but looks to be worth checking out, is on the Bud Purvine-inspired ground-thingies... Either the commercial versions or the homebuilt variants. Inmate Elizabeth posted about that in these two posts (among others):

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tweaks&m=177504

And

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=mug&m=173649

Edit... Theob, I went back & re-read all of these two threads & see that you were already in the thick of them. Have you tried the ferrite-varation ground-thingees yet?

Greg in Mississippi

P.S. Another ground-thingie-related tweak is the use of capacitors across them as discussed by Inmate Unclestu here: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tweaks&m=177294.

P.P.S. My next things to try are trying the high-current Belleson regulators in my linear ATX/P4 supply (hopefully this weekend... And again, thanks to Rick McI for pointing these out) and implementing a couple of different DACs to try... the Buffalo II DAC that's been sitting here for over a year & a new tiny DAC card using the ES9022 from DIYAudio poster EUVL (see here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/151846-anybody-using-new-ess-vout-dac-es9022-3.html).

The EUVL DAC may be especially promising for mounting on a modified Juli@ with an I2S connection... It is easy to implement as it only needs 9v & 6v power (easily supplied by batteries if that's your power of choice), it has it's own reclocking circuit (although EUVL's latest findings are that there are better ways to implement the clocking than how he did it here... Which is very similar to what Twisted Pear does in their ESS-based DACs), and it is very small & self-contained... And best yet, not terribly expensive.

Everything matters!

 

Size matters ..., posted on May 28, 2011 at 23:56:07
EmailTim
 The article mentions 5 items when selecting ferrite beads.

1) increasing the length of the portion of the conductor surrounded by the ferrite
2) increasing the cross sectional area of the ferrite (especially for power applications)
3) selecting a ferrite with an inner diameter most closely matching the outer diameter of the wire or wire bundle to be filtered
4) Ferrite core material for band width and frequency
5) Using 1 or 2 winds (but not more than 2).

I have some RatShack beads from another project, but the are way too big for #3's requirement and I have no idea what material they are made of.

What type and size of beads did you use for your P24 ???

Thanks,
Tim

 

RE: Size matters ..., posted on May 29, 2011 at 03:11:33
hfavandepas
 Hi Tim,

I think for clamp on ferrite beads it is not that critical. Most clamp on ferrite beads that my favourite supplier Concrad has available range from 100 – 280 Ohms with a variety of hole diameters too facilitate for the type of wire you which too clamp it on. From 4.5 mm too 9.5 mm. See pictures in the links below.

I choose the ones with highest impedance 250 – 280 Ohm but ordered a bunch with a wide variety of hole diameters, because I want to be able too experiment with the numbers of winds.

RINGKERN RKCF-05-A5 (Conrad Electronic)

RINGKERN RRC12-07-15-M (Conrad Electronic)

Mark

 

RE: Effect of ferrite beads on dc power lines too P24, P4 and/or too Pico PSU’s, posted on May 29, 2011 at 09:16:11
hfavandepas
 Hi Greg,

Thank you for your informatieve response.


I have no experience with placing ferrite beads on power lines and interconnects in analogue audio systems. Only after reading ‘Digital Hardware Design’ by Ivor Catt, David Walton, Malcolm Davidson, (thanks to a tip from inmate Ryelands) I got interested in the effect of (ground) noise in my cMP setup and lowering/filtering it.
see http://www.ivorcatt.org/digital-hardware-design.htm

But most important of all I learned that effects on sound quality and avoiding & reducing noise in analogue audio have hardly any resemblance with those in digital (audio) systems.

Just a wild guess, but my feeling tells me that Inmate Maxamillioy’s ground tweaks (and others) are toying around with the more subtle symptoms of ‘the pin1 problem’, where the circuit boards common trace in someway is connected too the chassis, (cables-)shields, power safety ground, ect. and thus therefore (unwanted) currents are allowed to flow in the signal reference ground. In analogue systems this can lead too a broad variety of all kinds of symptoms (not only too the well know classic hum).

In my view this in the only resemblance analogue audio systems and digital systems both have in common: they both need a clean and stable 0 volt. The cleaner and the more stable O volt: the better.
With this in mind I agree proper grounding is very, very important. But I also find most the most complicated. Especially in digital systems.

From reading the article ‘Example of Noise Suppression in DVD Players’
http://www.murata.com/products/emc/case/household/pdf/d_4.pdf
I now realize what a noisy mess it must be on a PC MoBo.

I want too concentrate on conducted noise in my cMP setup. I think that radiated noise is of great importants in an analogue audio setup, but of lesser importants in my cMP setup.

I use 2 Pico’s. One for ‘clean’ components and one for ‘dirty’ components. I use Pico’s because I think Pico’s are less noisy than standard ATX because they only have too switch from 12V -> 5 and 3.3 volt, while an standard ATX had too switch from 230 -> 12,5 and 3.3 volts. But I don’t know if that is really true.

Because Pico’s are still switchers I want too try is ferrite beads used after the pico (place on an P24 extension cable) have impact on sound quality.
I also want to try the effect on the power lines feeding feeding the Pico’s.

I’ll report back when the ferrite beads have arrived.

Mark

 

RE: Effect of ferrite beads on dc power lines too P24, P4 and/or too Pico PSU’s, posted on May 29, 2011 at 11:33:47
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Guys,

FOr some reason I have it in my head that ferrites arent the best things.

Has anyone thought about twists or braids for this? Ie, making connections with twisted pairs or braids to P24 conections?

There was a report of an improvement in sound by an inmate (i forget who) where thicker wire was used for these connections. The improvement in sound was claimed to come from the thicker wire but I found it interesting that twisted pairs were used too. IMHO the twisted pairs were more to blame than the thicker wire.

Just my 2 cents but it would be nice to see an experiment that compared a simple twist with a ferrite. I dont mind doing this myself, but my system is down and probably will be for a long while, so testing is not much of an option for me.



Cut to razor sounding violins

 

I think that was me., posted on May 29, 2011 at 16:50:37
hfavandepas
 Hi Greg,

I think that was me.

I did that twisting because than I used 2 solid core wires.
Twisted together they made one compact power supple cable.
I used that braided solid core wire between my linear PSU and the Pico.

At this moment I again use a twisted pair between my lineair PSU and the Pico. However now I use 2 wires of 2 mm stranded copper wire twisted together.

Why do you think a twisted pair will work better against conducted noise dan clamp on ferrite breads?

As far as I think I understand the purpose of twisting a pair of wires in a cable: it is to minimize the effects radiated noise onto that cable. (electromagnetic induction in that cable caused by electromagnetic fields).
A straight wire will work as an antenna. In a twisted pair the wires will also works as antennas, but in a twisted pair each wire loop will (more or less) cancel the signal picked up by the opposite wire in the next loop and vica versa. (If I'm correct, this is the theory behind the use of a twisted pair)

So I think a twisted pair will do a better job on radiated noise.
But too my knowledge a twisted wire pair has no advantage over a straight wire pair when it is about conducted noise.

May be other inmates can shed some light into this matter.

Mark

 

Found the missing Ferrite bead: I can replicate your listening experience ! , posted on May 30, 2011 at 11:21:43
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo,

I searched the house and found the missing ferrite bead.
I’m happy too report back too you that I got the same sonic improvement as you described!

I clamped it around the P4 power supply line coming from a (cheap: 60 euro’s) linear power supply.
And although coming from a linear PSU, the sonic improvement is exactly as you described it !

I can’t wait the 16 clamp on ferrite beads (with various wire diameters ) too arrive, too start various experiments.

Did you experiment already with 1 or more windings?
(I can’t do this yet with the lost ferrite bead I found back, because the centre hole of that bead is too narrow)

Mark

 

RE: Found the missing Ferrite bead: I can replicate your listening experience ! , posted on May 30, 2011 at 13:17:17
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 648
Joined: December 18, 2008
 Please try to remove the ferrite bead after a couple of weeks.
And see if you get the same improvement again.

Ferrites lose their effect when DC goes through them.

Actually, Charles Hansen (of Ayre Acoustics) claims that an extended period of DC creates a deleterious effect, with demagnetization needed.

 

Always good too try your suggestion. But I’m sceptical towards that claim., posted on May 30, 2011 at 13:56:34
hfavandepas
 Hi Bibo01,

Thank you for the tip.

Not because of that I think that ‘ferrites lose their effect when DC goes through them’ but because I find your tip very useful for testing the ‘placebo’ effect. Every tweaker is always at high risk to be fooled by the ‘placebo’ effect.

I never red or heard anything about such fenomenon untill now. Ofcourse that doesn’t mean that Charles Hansen claim is not correct. I try and see what comes up through the net after some google-ing. But if I can not find any serieues articles on that effect, than I will consider it not too be true.

Mark

 

May be you mean: saturation by a large DC magnitizing force ?, posted on May 30, 2011 at 17:10:18
hfavandepas
 Hi Bibo01,

It just sprang to mind that Charles Hansen might be pointing at saturation of the ferrite by a large DC magnetizing force. As described on page 109 and 110 in the article from ferrite manufacturer ‘Steward’ (see link below)

According the article this can be prevented by always feeding only a pair (or group) of wires through the same ferrite bread, that carry equal and opposite direct currents. This too ensure that there are always equal but opposite DC currents, which will result in a zero net magnetic flux density, this way preventing saturation of the ferrite.

It is good that you brought this too attention.
The P24 supply cable on which I also want too try the ferrite breads, consists of eight black ground wires, five red 5 Volt wires, 4 orange 3,3 Volt wires and two yellow 12 Volt wires.
In a cMP setup these wires carry approximately:
- 3,5 amp on the five 5 volt red wires,
- 0,3 amp on the four orange 3,3 Volt wires
- 0,12 amp on the two 12 Volt wires.
So careful cable-dressing amongst the black and the colored wires might be necessary, so too try too distribute all opposite fluxes evenly throughout the inside of that cable bundle.

May be it might also be a good thing, once that cable is dressed up, too twist that dressed up cable bundle a few times, so to make all wires in that cable bundle too come too the surface over some distance, in order too bring all wires close too the ferrite for some length inside the ferrite bread.

Anyway, thank you for pointing on the possible saturation of the ferrite bread. As I think this is what Charles Hansen probably ment.

Mark

 

RE: Found the missing Ferrite bead: I can replicate your listening experience ! , posted on May 31, 2011 at 04:08:23
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I tried a rather large ferrite core around the entire bundle of p24 and hardly noticed a difference. I did put other cores around power cords of my crossover/dac and juli@ 3.3 volt feeds and got a small bit of a sq change. Biggest change is still the p4 core. Don't understand why.

 

RE: Found the missing Ferrite bead: I can replicate your listening experience ! , posted on May 31, 2011 at 16:47:44
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Went to an Electrical Parts store (RS Electronics in the US) and got some real huge ferite cores put 2 of them around p24 and another around p4 and that is more like it. Sounds less bright but yet more detailed and more space around all instruments.
Very smooth.

 

That sounds encouraging.. !!, posted on May 31, 2011 at 17:43:58
hfavandepas
 Hi Theo

I can’t wait until mine will be delivered.
According the track & trace service they will be delivered tomorrow
So I can start clamping.

Good too hear that you now have obtained better results on the P24.

The effect of clamping a ferrite bead on the linear (!) 12 V DC P4 line in my setup was rather big.
It was a real significant improvement.
I could hear the improvement immediately.
No long listening sessions needed for that.

As you also already wrote: I have no explanation either for the significant SQ improvement.
I know that ferrite beads ‘filter’(present high resistance for) high frequency’s.
And I also expected that lowering HF noise levels would increase SQ
But what is exactly happening here, I don’t know.
Is the ferrite bead blocking HF noise coming from the MoBo onto the P4 line?
Or vice versa? Is my linear psu producing HF noise which is blocked by the ferrite?
What is exactly happing here that is causing the SQ improvement?
Anyway, it works very well !!

Untill now at least.

The total DC current in the P24 is high. Around 3.5 – 3.8 amps
Reading the ‘Steward’ article, that is much current to apply ferrites on.
Steward proudly presents in that article, that some of there ferrites can handle 4500 mili amps (4.5 amps) and still keep functioning without saturation or so.
So I will follow Bibo’s advice and remove them after 3 weeks, too check if the ferrites are still effective.

Can you provide a link or name or partnumber or model of which type of the ferrite beads that you are using?

Mark

 

RE: That sounds encouraging.. !!, posted on June 1, 2011 at 03:41:01
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 No part number. The ferrite is about an inch long and a half inch square at the end (this includes the white clamp). It all but fits the p24 bundle so I taped it it to be secure. Place from which I bought it only offers this one brand/style so I'll go back and buy the rest and find out their source.

Hope that helps.

 

Here is the part number of the ferrite clamps I used, posted on June 1, 2011 at 11:10:06
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Its 28A2029-0A0 2 pc ferrite bead w/nylon case mfg by Stewart.

 

Question of shared lines and degree ???, posted on June 1, 2011 at 20:36:50
EmailTim
 A few years ago I put in home runs to my audio equipment to "isolate" them from the rest of the AC appliances in the house. Being such, I wonder if placing Ferrite Beads on appliance power cords would have an noticeable impact in such a configuration.

Also, I am using a PICO PS which does not have a P24 line, but it does have a P4 line. I am experimenting with the P4 lines, HD power lines, SC power lines and the 12V/ground lines between the PS and PICO, but am not noticing a big difference. The switching PS brick already has a choke on its cord and all of gear is plugged into a filtered balanced power unit.

I will try braiding/twisting the PC power lines next and a linear PS.

Maybe the Ferrite Beads are more noticeable if other precautions are not already in place ???

Thanks,
Tim

P.S.
Just twisted the power cables. It makes for a nice cleanup and easier routing. Now for a listen with the twists and extra chokes.

 

Initial results/ impressions after one day. (With lots of questions still too be answered), posted on June 2, 2011 at 08:32:10
hfavandepas
 Hi Emial Tim,

These are my experiences after one day of clamping ferrites. It will be al long copy text and I write this also for others too because I am not educated in electrics and (digital) electronics. So it’s likely that i’m not aware of ‘white spots’ in my knowledge on this. (a white spot is an area of knowlegde that I don’t have, but also I don’t know that there is something I don’t know. If I knew I don’t know, than it’s a black spot. And I can start looking for the knowledge)
So too anyone who reads this, feel free too comment, too correct, and too improve.

So in the text below, I will give some background on what I did and why I did it. So anyone can correct or comment on my approach and can correct false assumptions and lack of knowlegde and give tips for other better approaches.

* Why wanted to try ferrite camp on beads
I wanted too experiment with filtering HF noise on the power supply lines too the mobo. Why?
Using a linear PSU too power the MoBo has a significant positive effect on sound quality. It is said that this is because less noise and ripple.
Putting decoupling caps (smoothing caps) on the P4 power lines has a positive effect on SQ because these caps probably smooth the ripple and may also shunt some HF noise. But using large capacitance too create a current reservoir too smooth ripple, large capacitance will not shunt HF frequencies. Putting litlle by-pass caps on the bigger caps helps somewhat. But still is not very effect on the very high frequency’s I want to filter.
I thought about filtering with 2 nd order L/C filters or R/C filters. But calculations too see if the these 2nd order filters will not start too ring, are much, much too difficult for me.

A more simple approach would be a combination of ferrites and capacitance. As suggested in the article from ferrite manufacturer Steward. Also google on” The Use Of Ferrites In EMI Suppression’ and one will find many more articles on this.
Ferrites provide a high resistance too HF frequency’s with much less chanche on ringing . Ferrite’s provide a high resistance for frequencies in the range from 50 mHz too 500 mHz. For exact data see the data sheet of the specific clamp of the ferrite bead that is chosen.

Things too keep in mind when using Ferrite’s
When reading article on The Use Of Ferrites In EMI Suppression it is pointed out that feeding DC current through a ferrite, will degrade the effect that a ferrite bead has on HF frequency’s. When too much DC current flows through ferrite, it becomes saturated and the filtering effect on HF frequency’s is lost or much less. See articles that discuss the effects of ‘DC & Low Frequency AC Bias Effects And Saturation’. Also inmate Bibo01 was probably pointing at this.


So here’s what I tried so far.
(with some background info, as too ‘why’and ‘how’)

* Starting with the electrical 230 source in my house.
In The Netherlands every home gets 3 times 230 Volt AC delivered. These three 230 AC voltages are delivered with a fase-shift of 120 degree’s. One can recognize these three fase groups, through the grouping of the spurs in the meterboard. In the meterboard one can see that the spurs are arranged in three groups of spurs. Every group of spurs lurks from one of those three 230 AC voltages.
When installing a dedicated spur, it’s wise too take the dedicated spur from the most clean 230 AC voltage fase. In my case I toke it from the 230 AC voltage fase that only feeds the laundry dryer and the washing machine. Nothing else lurks of that fase. So it’s the most clean 230 AC volt fase too put the dedicated audio spur on. Provided that the washing machine and laundry dryer are not running this is the most clean fase in my house. How much HF pollution already is delivered at my doorstep through the electrical net, I can only guess, But putting 2 big ferrite beads on this dedicated 230 AC voltage line coming from the dedicated spur, makes no audible difference at all.

* 230 connections too the used gear.
All cableling of the dedicated audio spur and also all power cords are shielded. The shields are only grounded at one end of the cable too a real earth.
Only the active Klein & Hummel speakers and my Lavry Black DAC are on this dedicated audio spur. The Lavry DAC has Epcos line filter in the power cord. This way I try too prevent the Lavry spoiling the dedicated audio spur. The lavry has a switching PSU inside, so one never knows. Putting the lavry on another spur makes makes no sound quality difference. So probably the Lavry is not pollution so much back inside the dedicated audio spur.

* I use two linear PSU’s and 2 pico’s
They are arranged in 2 groups. A dirty group and a clean group. Just a Cics suggests doing with 2 ATX PSU’s. I use that same concept (dirty and clean), but using 2 pico’s
- clean section: linear PSU -> Pico 160 XT on the P24
- dirty section: linear PSU -> Pico 200 which powers the SSD and USB
(the P4 PSU line is taken directly from the linear PSU and bypasses the Pico).
Both linear PSU’s are on the same 230 AC outlet and on the same 230 AC spur with a real earth. So the two linear supplies both can see each other through the 230 Volt AC connection and also through the safety earth connection.
I don’t know if the 2 linear PSU’s also can see each other trough the DC side through the mobo somehow.
Putting the 2 linear PSU’s on 2 different spurs with real earth connections, has no positive effect on sound quality.
Putting the 2 linear PSU’s on a clean kitchen spur (with only the dishwasher on it) makes no difference in SQ.

* other sphericals connected with might inject HF noise.
- NAS
I use a NAS with might inject noise onto the MoBo.
Connecting the LAN cable makes no difference in sound quality.
This might be prevented, because LAN sockets are transformer decoupled by design. May be this feature prevents HF noise. But being AC, the HF noise should be able too get trough this transformer.
So I’m a little puzzled here.

Too my utmost surprise: connecting my Sony TV too the VGA port, also makes no difference in sound quality. I had expected the TV too inject much HF noise into the MoBo.
However the TV is earthed trough a real earth connection via the coax cable. The coax cable has a real earth connection in the meterboard when entering the house.

* HIGH QUALITY optical out to Lavry DAC made a real improvement
As suggested by Cics using an optical connection which provides galvanic isolation between DAC and MoBo yields a significant SQ improvement. But only when high quality toslink cables are used.
Using the standard toslink optical cables that came with my RME sound cards makes no difference at all. Standard quality toslink cable sound the same as balanced AES/EBU from my Lynx AES16 PCI card.
Surprisingly by far the best is: optical out by means of a HIGH QUALITY optical toslink.
Just as Cics recommends in his cMP recipe.

* Why I tried ferrites in this setup.
So I still had the nagging feeling that there still must be al lot of HF noise around or a ground loop somehow. Otherwise: why would using a high quality toslink connecting make such a significant SQ improvement. Right ?

This is why I wanted too see if blocking HF noise traveling around, would yield any sound quality improvement.
So I just started (more or less without any rational strategy) placing ferrites on power cords.

* Ferrite clamp on P4
To my surprise placing a large ferrite clamp on the P4 psu line coming from a linear PSU (!!), made a significant SQ improvement.
More improvement than placing smoothing caps on the P4. So definitely worth taking the trouble.
So is it a lousy linear PSU? I don’t think so as it already had made a sound quality improvement when not using the ATX P4.
Placing ferrites just makes a second significant SQstep. In my setup: equal too the one not feeding the P4 from a Aerth watts ATX switching PSU.

* many ferrite clamps on individual P24 voltage lines.
Just one big ferrite clamp on the P24 has hardly any effect on SQ.
But clamping many each on individual + 3.3, +5, + 12 volt wires (each combined with 1 black 0 Volt line) also makes a nice SQ improvement.
The P24 extension cable has now 9 ferrite clamps on it. 5 clamps on each individual red 5 volt DC lines, 3 on each orange 3,3 line and 1 on the combined yellow +12volt lines.

* DC bias.
I probably make a lot DC bias faults by clamping ferrites with out knowing the currents through each wire. so I want to start measuring the current in all lines of the P24.
Knowing all currents in each wire from the P24 extension cable, I might be able too make better +/- combinations which cause less DC bias.

* Is there really much more HF noise in my setup than others?
So I really don’t know if my setup has lots of HF noise traveling around, compared too other cMP setups. So if anybody sees any basic flaws in my setup, please let me know what you think.
As I can’t think of any basic flaws which would create a lot of HF noise in my cMP setup or setup flaws that create unwanted ground loops.

* optimizing the use of Ferrites
Until now I just clamped around with no real strategy. If anybody has tips on where and when ferrites are more effective, let me know. Any suggestions welcome.

* adding caps on both side?
What about placing extra caps on both side of the ferrites, to shunt HF frequency’s that see the high resistance of the ferrite ahead and thus will prefer traveling through the caps?

I found it encouraging that TheoB also found the same SQ improvements in his setup.
Especially because I know his Martin Logans are extremely revealing but neutral, electrostatic speakers which will let Theo hear every minute change in ambiance, micro details, etc.

So everybody start clamping!
Ferrites only cost 1 to 3 euro each.
Just try them and report back.

Mark

 

Initial results/ impressions after one day, with a lot of questions still too be answered), posted on June 2, 2011 at 08:57:58
hfavandepas
 Hi all,

After one day of clamping, these are my experiences untill now.

It is a long copy text because I want too give a detailed description of my setup and what I did so far on power supply improvement.
But unfortunately I am not educated in electrics and (digital) electronics. Just a hobbyist. So it’s likely that i’m not aware of ‘white spots’ in my knowledge.
A white spot is an area of knowlegde that I don’t have, but also I don’t know that there is something I should know. If I knew that I didn’t knew, than it would be a black spot and I could start looking for the knowledge needed.
So I welcome all comments, corrections, ect etc.


So in the text below, I will give some background on what I did and why I did it. So anyone can correct or comment on my approach and can correct false assumptions and lack of knowlegde and give tips for other better approaches.

* Why I wanted to try ferrite clamp on beads
I wanted too experiment with filtering HF noise on the power supply lines too the mobo. Why?
Using a linear PSU too power the MoBo has a significant positive effect on sound quality. It is said that this is because of less noise and ripple.
Putting decoupling caps (smoothing caps) on the P4 power lines has a positive effect on SQ because these caps probably smooth the ripple and may also shunt some HF noise. But using large capacitance too create a current reservoir too smooth ripple, will not shunt very high HF frequencies. Putting litlle by-pass caps on the bigger caps helps somewhat. But still is not very effective on the very high frequency’s I want to filter.
I thought about filtering with 2 nd order L/C filters or R/C filters. But calculations too see if the these 2nd order filters will not start too ring, are much, much too difficult for me.

A more simple approach would be a combination of ferrites and capacitance. As suggested in the article from ferrite manufacturer Steward. Also google on” The Use Of Ferrites In EMI Suppression’ and one will find many more articles on this.
Ferrites provide a high resistance too HF frequency’s with much less chanche on ringing . Ferrite’s provide a high resistance for frequencies in the range from 50 mHz too 500 mHz. For exact data see the data sheet of the specific clamp on ferrite bead that you want to use.

Things too keep in mind when using Ferrite’s
When reading article on 'The Use Of Ferrites In EMI Suppression', it is pointed out that feeding DC current through a ferrite, will degrade the effect that a ferrite bead has on HF frequency’s. When too much DC current flows through ferrite, it becomes saturated and the filtering effect on HF frequency’s is lost or is much less. See articles that discuss the effects of ‘DC & Low Frequency AC Bias Effects And Saturation’. Also inmate Bibo01 was probably pointing at this.


So here’s what I tried so far.
(with some background info, as too ‘why’ and ‘how’)

* Starting with the electrical 230 source in my house.
In The Netherlands every home gets 3 times 230 Volt AC delivered. These three 230 AC voltages are delivered with a fase-shift of 120 degree’s. One can recognize these three fase groups, through the grouping of the spurs in the meterboard. On the meterboard one can see that the spurs are arranged in three groups of spurs. Every group of spurs lurks from one of those three 230 AC voltages.
When installing a dedicated spur, it’s wise too place the dedicated spur on the most clean 230 AC voltage fase. In my case I toke it from the 230 AC voltage fase that only feeds the laundry dryer and the washing machine. Nothing else lurks of that fase. So it’s the most clean 230 AC volt fase too put the dedicated audio spur on. Provided that the washing machine and laundry dryer are not running this is the most clean fase in my house. How much HF pollution already is delivered at my doorstep through the electrical net, I can only guess, But putting 2 big ferrite beads on this dedicated 230 AC voltage line coming from the dedicated spur, makes no audible difference at all.

* 230 connections too the used gear.
All cableling of the dedicated audio spur and also all power cords are shielded. The shields are only grounded at one end of the cable too a real earth.
Only the active Klein & Hummel speakers and my Lavry Black DAC are on this dedicated audio spur. The Lavry DAC has an Epcos line filter in the power cord. This way I try too prevent the Lavry spoiling the dedicated audio spur. The lavry has a switching PSU inside, so one never knows. Putting the lavry on another spur makes makes no sound quality difference. So probably the Lavry is not pollution so much back inside the dedicated audio spur.

* I use two linear PSU’s and 2 pico’s
They are arranged in 2 groups. A dirty group and a clean group. Just a Cics suggests doing with 2 ATX PSU’s. I use that same concept (dirty and clean), but through using 2 pico’s
- clean section: linear PSU -> Pico 160 XT on the P24
- dirty section: linear PSU -> Pico 200 which powers the SSD and USB
(the P4 PSU line is taken directly from the 'dirty' linear PSU and bypasses the Pico 200).
Both linear PSU’s are on the same 230 AC outlet and on the same 230 AC spur with a real earth. So the two linear supplies both can see each other through the 230 Volt AC connection and also through the safety earth connection.
I don’t know if the 2 linear PSU’s also can see each other on the DC side through the mobo somehow.
Putting the 2 linear PSU’s on 2 different spurs with real earth connections, has no positive effect on sound quality.
Putting the 2 linear PSU’s on a clean kitchen spur (with only the dishwasher on it) makes no difference in SQ.

* other sphericals connected with might inject HF noise.
- NAS
I use a NAS which might inject noise onto the MoBo.
Connecting the LAN cable makes no difference in sound quality.
This might be prevented, because LAN sockets are transformer decoupled by design. May be this feature prevents HF noise. But being AC, the HF noise should be able too get trough these decoupling transformers.
So I’m a little puzzled here.

Too my utmost surprise: connecting my Sony TV too the VGA port, also makes no difference in sound quality. I had expected the TV too inject much HF noise into the MoBo.
However the TV is earthed trough a real earth connection via the coax cable. The coax cable has a real earth connection in the meterboard when entering the house. May this helps draining HF noise?

* HIGH QUALITY optical out to Lavry DAC made a real improvement.
As suggested by Cics using an optical connection which provides galvanic isolation between DAC and MoBo yields a significant SQ improvement. But only when HIGH QUALITY (!) toslink cables are used.
Using the standard toslink optical cables that came with my RME sound cards makes no difference at all. Standard quality toslink cable sounds the same as balanced AES/EBU from my Lynx AES16 PCI card.
Surprisingly by far the best is: optical out by means of a HIGH QUALITY optical toslink.
Just as Cics recommends in his cMP recipe.

* Why I tried ferrites in this setup.
So I still had the nagging feeling that there still must be al lot of HF noise around or a ground loop somehow. Otherwise: why would using a high quality toslink connection make such a significant SQ improvement? Right ?

This is why I wanted too see if blocking HF noise traveling around, would yield any sound quality improvement.
So I just started (more or less without any rational strategy) placing ferrites on DC power supply cords too the MoBo.

* Ferrite clamp on P4.
To my surprise placing a large ferrite clamp on the psu line feeding the P4 coming from a linear PSU (!!), made a significant SQ improvement.
More improvement than placing smoothing caps on the P4. So definitely worth taking the trouble.
So is it a lousy linear PSU? I don’t think so as it already had made a sound quality improvement when not using the swithing ATX psu to the P4.
Placing ferrites just makes a second significant SQ improvement. In my setup: equal too not using the P4 from a Aerth watts ATX switching PSU but using a linear PSU.

* many ferrite clamps on individual P24 voltage lines.
Just one big ferrite clamp on the P24 has hardly any effect on SQ.
But clamping many each on individual + 3.3, +5, + 12 volt wires (each combined with 1 black 0 Volt line) also makes a nice SQ improvement.
The P24 extension cable has now 9 ferrite clamps on it. 5 clamps on each individual red 5 volt DC lines, 3 on each orange 3,3 line and 1 on the combined yellow +12volt lines.

* DC bias.
I probably make a lot DC bias faults by clamping ferrites with out knowing the currents through each wire. so I want to start measuring the current in all lines of the P24.
Knowing all currents in each wire from the P24 extension cable, I might be able too make better +/- combinations which cause less DC bias.

* Is there really much more HF noise in my setup than others?
So I really don’t know if my setup has lots of HF noise traveling around, compared too other cMP setups. So if anybody sees any basic flaws in my setup, please let me know what you think.
As I can’t think of any basic flaws which would create a lot of HF noise in my cMP setup or setup flaws that create unwanted ground loops.

* optimizing the use of Ferrites
Until now I just clamped around with no real strategy. If anybody has tips on where and when ferrites are more effective, let me know. Any suggestions welcome.

* adding caps on both sides of the ferrite?
What about placing extra caps on both sides of the ferrites, to shunt HF frequency’s that see the high resistance of the ferrite ahead and thus will prefer traveling through the caps? Any suggestions here?

I found it encouraging that TheoB also found the same SQ improvements in his setup. Especially because I know his Martin Logans are extremely revealing but neutral, electrostatic speakers which will let Theo hear every minute change in ambiance, micro details, etc.

So everybody start clamping!
Ferrites only cost 1 to 3 euro each.
Just try them and report back.

Mark

 

Interesting results indeed, posted on June 2, 2011 at 09:10:06
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Mark say more about individual elements of p24. How did you know which wires to pair? Did you strip off the sheathing around p24 to get @ individual pairs?

 

I use a p24 extension cable. that makes paring easy., posted on June 2, 2011 at 09:43:54
hfavandepas



Hi Theo

I use a p24 extension cable.
That makes paring and clamping ferrites on very easy.
See photo.

Since the guys who build there own fully linear cMP PSU’s, bundle all black wires together, I assume that each of the 8 black 0 volt wires carries 1/8 of the current back.
So through 'rule of thumb' I pair one black wire with one red 5 volt.
But I should measure the current in every p24 line.
Than I know it exactly

Mark

 

Another Linear Supply sees the light of day!, posted on June 7, 2011 at 23:12:51
Audio Bling
Audiophile

Posts: 307
Location: Australia
Joined: October 9, 2007



Dear cMP-philes,

Following is a description of a project that I embarked upon concerning the building of a bespoke Linear Power Supply (LPS) to power my G31M+E7200 cMP2 rig.

Back in the good old days of cMP, the recommendation was to power the motherboard (mobo) by a quality ATX Switch Mode Power Supply (SMPS) and the HDDs by a cheaper (Granite) SMPS. This seemed to work quite well. However, it was not long before some cMP-philes began to experiment with other strategies to improve performance. Some of these strategies are documented on the cMP web site (Appendix B – Advanced Optimisations). Anyway, my configuration prior to this project was: (i) An ATX SMPS powering the P20-24 on the motherboard; (ii) A cheap 12V Linear Power Supply (LPS) powering the CPU (P4); (iii) A Granite SMPS powering the HDDs.

Some time ago there was a post on the Asylum by John Swenson who proposed a 9V LPS incorporating a Hammond Choke. John reported that this improved the sound quality of his fit-PC. This, I believe, encouraged some cMP-philes to think about developing a LPS for a detuned cMP. I don’t know who amongst the fraternity was the first but I recall seeing a post and photos of Mihaylov’s LPS. By my reckoning, Mihaylov had gone to great effort to build a LPS that handled the three voltages necessary to power the mobo (12V, 5V, 3.3V). I remember looking at those photos and thinking that it was an “all out” attempt to build a quality computer power supply for audio. Yes, a great attempt but too large a step for me.

I began to think about the idea of up-scaling John Swenson’s design to power my mobo through a PICO PS. I thought the advantages of this solution were: i) The PICO could handle the drop-down voltages of the 5V and 3.3V lines, and ii) The PICO could handle the start-up “power-on” sequence on the P20-24 required to bring a mobo to “life”. I thought a 12V LPS+PICO would be a step in the right direction and would cost considerably less than a LPS similar to Mihaylov’s. In summary, I figured the alternatives were:

1. Build three LPSs; one for each of the required voltages (12V, 5V, 3.3V)

2. Build a 12V LPS+PICO (hybrid solution)

3. Build something else..?

Option 1 seemed to me to be too extravagant – as one who is trying to keep this hobby within bounds. Option 2 seemed a good one for reason of its more modest cost and relative simplicity but perhaps a compromise for the reason that the PICO used switch mode regulators to achieve the drop-down 5V & 3.3V required by the P20-24.

Option 3 was considerably open in possibility: Given that I am not a fan of up sampling – preferring instead to playback at the native rate; Given that I was not using a soundcard – instead outputting via USB to DAC (see below System for details). I began, at first, to consider the approach championed by Ryelands to use a “headless” fit-PC2. I think what Ryelands has done is very neat and elegant indeed: the fit-PC2 has modest power requirements and its on-board regulation meant that a single good quality 9V LPS would suffice. In the end, however, I settled upon the idea of building a “dual” 12V and 5V+3.3V LPS for my existing board with two transformers and two chokes – in an effort to keep the cost down. As I was not able to attempt the skilled “grunt work” myself, I contacted a friend (by the name of Elson) who was adept. Soon after, I took delivery of the “Elson” LPS. Total cost was ~US$450. (incl. parts & labour. And, before anyone asks: Elson will not build another!) I connected the Elson to the P24 of my G31M mobo using a schema suggested by GStew and powered it up according to his instructions. My rig came to life on the very first attempt. Thank you GStew!

Description:

The design is based on John Swenson’s offering but with some modification. (See John’s post here.) It uses two toroidal transformers and two Hammond chokes (159ZJ) – one for the 12V supply and another for the 5&3.3V supply. Caps: Jamicon (15000uF 25V). Resistors: Takman metal film. Diodes: Motorola bridge rectifier type. Max average current: 2A for 12V line, 4A for 5V line, 1A for 3.3V line. Dimensions: 9”/225mm(w) 3”/75mm(h) 11”/275mm(d).

(Please don’t ask me for a schematic of the Elson. The “source” was John Swenson’s design and Elson took it from there – keeping it as close as possible to John’s spec but also taking into consideration parts cost and availability.)



One unusual aspect of the design is the use of voltage trim-pots. By adjustment of three screws, the voltages can be varied up or down with a consequent effect on sound quality. I experimented with voltages on the 12V and 5V line. Unfortunately, the way things were implemented I was unable to lower the voltage on the 3.3V line; only increase it which didn’t seem to make for improvement – so I left it at 3.3V.

Following is an excerpt of a communication to another cMP-phile at the time I was fiddling with this stuff. It tells the story reasonably well, I think:

“I have been experimenting with Voltages in the 4.5-4.7 to 11.5-11.7 range. The first thing to say is that there appears to be a noticeable change in sound for such small changes in voltage. I was listening to three tracks in particular yesterday: Eva Cassidy’s Songbird Tk 3; & Dave Brubeck’s Time Out Tracks 2 and 3. With Cassidy, I want to hear a voice to die for (as female voice is “my thing”.) Also, Brubeck’s tracks are a good check of how things are going in the sense that I want to hear a realistic piano; sax that has a little “bite”; realistic bass strings; dramatic and percussive drums (particularly Tk3).

At the lower end of the voltage range (4.5 & 11.5) things get very clean and liquid: Cassidy’s voice is gorgeous and dynamic but I seem to notice that some of the low-level stuff melts a little too much into the background such that they become a little indistinct. Whereas, at the top end of the voltage range (4.7 & 11.7), the background stuff (strings and other instruments) begin to take over a bit to the extent that I lose the focus on that yummy voice.

…………..

After more listening, I am of the opinion that 3.3, 4.6, 11.8 is the “go” with the current mobo.. The performance "hit" is definitely on the 5V line while the 12V line only gives subtle changes in SQ. Whereas, the difference between 4.5, 4.6, 4.7, 4.8 is not subtle, IMO.”


Note that these experiments were done on my trusty G31M board. I would not necessarily expect the same results on a H55 or H67 board.

Outcome:

Does the Elson make for an improvement in sound quality? Most definitely! I have, on several occasions reverted to my old ATX Corsair SWPS to perform an AB. The Corsair sounds “grungy” by comparison. The Elson offers better clarity and is far more revealing. Blacker blacks. More micro-detail; instruments and voices have a much more natural sound.

Is the Elson as good as a (full) 12V 5V 3.3V LPS solution? I don’t know as I have not had the opportunity to compare but would say it is unlikely. I suspect a “full implementation” would yield the best performance. However, the upside of the Elson is that it would not be as expensive.

Is the Elson better than a 12V LPS+PICO solution? Again, without the opportunity to A-B, I don’t know. It may be but then again it may not. What the PICO has in its favour is simplicity and lower cost.

Is the Elson an elegant solution? At this time, I have the Elson powering the P24 on the mobo. A cheap 12V LPS powering the CPU P4 (cost US$30). A Granite SMPS powering the HDD. In all, a lot of wires going everywhere! I crave something neater.

Components

As far as a bespoke LPS is concerned, I believe there is improvement to be obtained by selecting the “right” components: regulators, caps and so on, as these are all going to make a difference to the sound. My selection of components is one of many. There are other contributors to this thread who have tried other designs and components with success. If you have a mind to attempt a similar project then I suggest you review their component list and leverage upon their trials and outcome as well as mine. Cost and availability were considerations for me.

Thanks:

Many thanks to GStew (Greg), Ryelands (Dave) and John Swenson who have been helpful in this project. I would also like to thank Mihaylov, jackwong and hfavandepas who have been so generous with their discoveries. Please forgive me if I have omitted to mention others who have also contributed.

System:

cMP2>Empirical Audio Freeway2 (USBtoS/PDIF)>Audio-GD DAC-19DSP>Supratek Sauvignon>Blue Circle BC26> Thiel CS3.6

AB.




 

Very nice post!, posted on June 8, 2011 at 04:12:19
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Isn't it interesting how many of us have our personal journeys with cmp^2. We are only limited by our capacity to learn, courage to try new stuff and hearing ability. I think the way you thank those who have influenced you is just great. I think we all have a debt to those you mentioned. My personal debt is especially in the red to Ryelands, Jackwong and Hfavandepas.

Well done Bling!

 

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