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cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player

41.183.0.21
Posted on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
cMP

The open source high-end Memory Player

December 2007

Music delivery is perfected. cMP (cics Memory Player) delivers memory playback (without RAMDisk or other utilities) thereby eliminating disk interference during playback.

In creating cMP, its critical objective was the implementation of fundamental designs that:

  1. Remove disk traffic interference during playback without having the inconvenience of manually loading files into a virtual RAM drive, etc..
  2. Ensure time critical sample delivery to the external DAC. Streaming of samples from precision upsampled (to 24/96) sound buffers to the soundcard must be fast, lean and mean! There's no room for any bottlenecks or overheads here, otherwise we risk increasing jitter and compromise Bit Transparency.
  3. Provide better power supply and remove the need for a ferrite core on the mouse connection.
  4. Provide flexibility to choose any player (Foobar2000, Winamp etc.).
  5. Further minimize the Windows footprint to that more optimal than XP's Embedded SP2 operating system as used in large scale commercial applications. This provides the foundation for the 2nd design goal.
  6. Offer a CD/DVD-ROM drive without impacting sound quality.
  7. Offer proper remote usability as locating that mouse cursor from a distance is cumbersome.
  8. Contain costs but also allow for a complete elegant one box solution.

Such designs in theory should render a stunning sonic experience. Its implementation however was a massive challenge. Did this theory meet the sonic expectations? Yes as evidenced in cMP's bit perfect performance and ultra low jitter.

How does it sound? The most descriptive word that comes to mind is emotional. cMP's sonic purity is truly profound. It grips those musical lines across any genre with remarkable precision. Soundstage improves, there's better layering and even more ambient information. Bass is tighter, with natural vocals & instruments.

FRONT



BACK



More pictures and screenshots are available from the cMP documentation link provided below.

FEEDBACK

Pre-release testing by music lovers located all over the world yielded further insight and perfection of cMP.

  • A music lover based in the US with limited or no computer training:

    This has been a great way to learn about computers in addition to making something very useful for enjoying music.

    Compared to my ###### (read expensive high-end traditional CD transport), even with some tweaking and learning left to do, this sounds much better. Dynamic, yet relaxed (effortless?).

    I started listening last night at 7:00 and had to force myself to go to bed at twelve. Amazing spaciousness. It is truly getting close to GREAT analog and is much better than average analog already. It is simply amazing.

    I found your instructions easy to follow ONCE I understood what I was being told to do. To repeat, I have never done anything like this before, so your instructions were clear without resorting to "hand holding". I think the process was easier than you warned. I kept saying to myself, "that wasn't so bad!"

    After cMP:

    My only audio friends are very analogue-centric. Sometime in January I am going to have them over to audition the cMP. I think they are going to be amazed. Of course, I am confident that JULI@ is going to be the icing on the cake. If this takes the whole thing another step closer I think they will be grateful that one can enjoy listening to CD's as much as LP's. Of course, in many ways your approach does things even LP's cannot do. It is becoming a toss-up, but the best kind; one can enjoy either one equally well!

  • A music lover based in Europe with more than 2000 CDs:

    the quality of sound reproduction is quite amazing. My motivation for building was that I am not wealthy and could never dream of, let alone buy, a high-end CD player. Even this project was considerably more than I could properly afford and I began it with some trepidation. But it's been well worth it.

    After cMP:

    I spent several hours last night testing the latest cMP. I did several A/B runs with cMP on the one hand and Foobar launched via old batch files and reading direct from disk on the other. There is no doubt in my mind that the sound using cMP is a significant improvement even with my modest setup.

    The quality is quite stunning, significantly better than previous. (My partner agrees with this - she's no audio junkie but she is an informed music lover.)

  • A music lover based in Australia:

    I have been wanting to relay to you my own experience with your methods and give you some feedback . So far, I have found your approach produces very good results so I must convey to you my thanks and appreciation. At some point soon I will formalise my thoughts and send them to you or post them. I believe what you have done has become an excellent resource/asset to people interested in PC Audio.


FEATURES

  1. Disk traffic interference during playback is eliminated. Advanced RAM playback is based on available physical RAM (as reported by Task Manager or Process Explorer). This means up to 4GB (XP's limit) can be used allowing for 24/192 RAM playback. Recommendation is to use 1GB RAM (which yields available physical RAM of ~830MB - enough for any CD at 16/44.1). cMP achieves memory playback via the system cache and not through a simulated virtual drive. This approach removes Windows disk I/O overheads (irrespective of whether disk is physical or virtual) hence, it's more optimal.

  2. Extensive Windows & Player (Foobar2000 or other) optimizations yielding much lower jitter and bit perfect delivery. System level optimizations are done at runtime (which cannot be achieved using .bat files and utilities like Process Explorer). cMP is designed to work with 32 CPU cores!

  3. Open architecture. cMP allows for any player to be used: Foobar2000, XXHighEnd, Winamp etc. (player just needs to handle .cue files like foobar2000 otherwise play entire .wav). Any ripper software can be used (as long as it conforms to .cue single file standard like those created by EAC). Additional flexibility is provided, for example use cMP to drive your HTPC playing any movie from any genre (a .cue file for each .iso file is needed).

  4. All .cue files are processed by cMP which means the player focuses only on playing the CD. In Foobar2000, the album list control component is not needed. In techno speak this is called separation of concerns.

  5. Power delivery to the mobo is improved by further reducing interference. The need for a ferrite core is removed.

  6. Full function remote control using a wireless mouse is achieved. Your entire library can be navigated: play any CD, eject it, jump to any track or change volume. This is achieved using just ONE mouse button: the Wheel! Use the mouse as a normal one (left-click) or hold it in your hand (like a remote control) and wheel away using your thumb. Of course other buttons are used for more convenience. There's no need to find that tiny mouse cursor and left click! (You can still do this if needed).

  7. Your entire library that you so diligently ripped is fully compatible with cMP. No proprietary / lock-in stuff here which forces you to re-rip. Just point cMP to your music folders containing .cue and .wav files (or flac or other). cMP supports any content file as long as cue files are defined for them. For flac content files, the known EAC bug of adding an additional .flac suffix to the content file's name must be removed (otherwise your cue's content file directive will not be found).

  8. CD/DVD-ROM drive is implemented without compromising playback quality. For the purist, this can be unplugged without opening computer or rebooting.

Bottom line: cMP is a (one box) highly advanced memory player that's easy to setup and use. cMP's core strength lies in newly developed operating system software components (built in c/c++) that uses XP SP 2 as a foundation. Windows Explorer is done away with while cMP takes over and more. Bit perfect delivery is achieved yielding an ultra high resolution of more than 23.5 bits (a limitation in measuring instruments prevents measuring cMP's perfect resolution). DAC's have yet to achieve this resolution (as a minimum of 141db SNR is needed)! For cMP's bit perfect measurements, see (Bit Perfect Measurement & Analysis ).


GETTING STARTED

Visit cicsMemoryPlayer.com where you'll find detailed easy to follow instructions and much more.

Ensuring clean AC power delivery to equipment is very important. For DAC, pre-amp and amplifiers, use a dedicated AC circuit. For source equipment, use another AC circuit as this is where cMP's main PSU should be powered from. Use another less important AC circuit for powering cMP's 2nd dirty power inlet. Use of quality power cords and line conditioners is recommended.


Special thanks to those that provided such brilliant feedback and suggestions during pre-release testing. cMP's software is at version 1.0b as more feedback is desired. Your input, insights, criticisms, experiences and suggestions all help.

Thank you.

 

Hide full thread outline!
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RE: 192khz digital out soundcard to PC, posted on February 10, 2008 at 04:15:44
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 This card seems to handle quad wire transfert ! cool with a SRC to 384khz and a DCS pro converter like the DCS 955.
We need the Secret Rabbit code able to handle 384khz SRC, but what size of RAM with cMP ?

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on February 15, 2008 at 11:45:59
music_freak
Audiophile

Posts: 2
Joined: February 12, 2008
 Hello,

Well first of all I would like to say that I'm very impressed with the documents and the cmp player. It alsready gave some stunning results and I still need to upgrade some things.
I have however one problem when using cMP player. Not all the cue files I use a recognized by cMP while Foobar loads them without any problems. I've checked the files and can't recognize any problems in it. Are there specific things which I have to look for in my cue files that are difficult for cMP to work with?

Thank you

 

RE: Cue files, posted on February 16, 2008 at 04:25:32
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Thanks for the feedback.

I've experienced it the other way round. Here's an example of the first few lines of a typical cue file:

REM GENRE Rock
REM DISCID 250DBC14
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v0.95b3"
PERFORMER "Elvis Presley"
TITLE "Inspirational"
FILE "Elvis Presley - Inspirational.wav" WAVE


cMP looks at the REM GENRE, PERFORMER, TITLE & FILE directives. Most errors typically occur in the FILE directive where an incorrect content file is specified. Also, make sure your directives are in upper case (which should be the case), i.e. 'REM GENRE' and not 'Rem Genre' or 'rem genre'.

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on February 16, 2008 at 11:16:48
Thomas B


 
Hi - Is it possible to get a AES/EBU 110 ohm digital output from the Memory Player's mobo direct to the XLR digital input of my Genelec 8240A studio monitors?

/Thomas B

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on February 16, 2008 at 11:18:38
Thomas B


 
Hi - Is it possible to get an AES/EBU 110 ohm digital output from the Memory Player's mobo direct to the XLR digital input of my Genelec 8240A studio monitors?

/Thomas B

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on February 16, 2008 at 14:13:38
TubeSatyr
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Location: Australia
Joined: February 11, 2008
 Just wondering if it's possible to install Plextools and EAC inside cMP and be able to access these two programs from the main cMP menu.

Thanks,

 

RE: Problem disappeared shortly after (but not right after!) updating BIOS., posted on February 16, 2008 at 14:14:41
NEIL


 
What exact version of BIOS file did you flash with? Did you have to use DOS/Floppy, or was there a Windows app? I've been having the exact same issue. This board seems to be pretty touchy.

 

RE: Plextools and EAC, posted on February 16, 2008 at 21:41:58
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Yes you could run these tools. Under settings, you could use the 'T.Screen' button to run Plextools or alternatively, just swap EAC for Plextools. Using the T.Screen button allows for both EAC and Plextools to be used from cMP.

These changes are done in the .pth file.

 

RE: AES/EBU 110 ohm digital output, posted on February 16, 2008 at 21:49:52
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 This output has to come from your soundcard. On my RME HDSP 9652, AES is available but requires changing the supplied RCA connector.

Mobo sound hardware when offering digital output is typically limited to just SPDIF output (coax, tos or headers). I wouldn't recommend using integrated mobo sound h/w as better performance is gained from dedicated soundcards.

 

RE: Updating BIOS, posted on February 16, 2008 at 21:59:30
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 For Biostar P4M900-SE, use this BIOS (2007-08-03 without logo). There's a BIOS utility (2.67MB) that you can use to flash BIOS from Windows - download it from same link provided.

 

RE: AES/EBU 110 ohm digital output, posted on February 17, 2008 at 04:10:22
Thomas B


 
Hi cics,

Thanks for your reply - got it. Another question: Is it possible to make a transport version of the MP without hard drive?

Thomas B

 

RE: Player without HDD, posted on February 17, 2008 at 06:34:37
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 I'm aware of computers booting and operating entirely from a LAN. Not sure if this would be better as networking functionality is required thus increasing Windows runtime footprint. In audio, Slim Devices' Squeeze Box or Transporter would be good examples of such an implementation with connectivity via Ethernet or wireless. These are not memory players (due to limited 64MB RAM).

cMP setup has HDDs powered separately (dirty power). Only SATA data interface remains. This removes power supply interference from HDDs and doesn't require any Windows networking. Sound improvement from doing this is significant.

 

RE: Memory Player, posted on February 17, 2008 at 10:07:52
db


 
cics--
I am following your project with great interest. It is not clear to me which of the design features you list at the beginning of your article are achieved by the software. I guess my question is, what exactly are the functions of the software, and specifically is memory playback a matter of installing sufficient RAM and setting the system cache, or is your software somehow involved in that.

Thanks, db

 

Ignore Previous Question, posted on February 17, 2008 at 17:37:47
db


 
Sorry--I should have read more carefully.
Your document is very well done.
thanks, db

 

Memory needed with cMP at 96k, posted on February 18, 2008 at 15:18:01
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 The recommanded memory is 1 Go at for playing 44k files but what is the memory needed for cMP running at 96k do you recommand running at 44k over 96k ?

 

RE: Memory needed with cMP at 96k, posted on February 19, 2008 at 08:23:24
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Recommendation is based on source material. For CDs at 16/44.1, 1GB RAM is perfect. Whether this source is played at 24/96 or higher, same RAM size will work. cMP setup gives 830MB+ available RAM which is enough for any regular CD.

For 24/96 sources, the equivalent CD at 800MB (close to its full capacity) would require 2.6GB RAM (for a 600MB CD which is just under an hour of music, requires 1.9GB). RAM needed would be 3GB.

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on February 19, 2008 at 11:15:04
music_freak
Audiophile

Posts: 2
Joined: February 12, 2008
 Thanks for the advice. Still no solution however. If I for example select a folder with 10 different folders consisting an album each it only selects some of the cue files within the underlying folders. If I add all the cue files maually CMP will load them. This is however a lot of work and it's not clear to me why the program selects not all of the cue files automatically.

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on February 19, 2008 at 12:47:23
Thomas B


 
Hi cics - can volume control be accessed from the touch screen?

/Thomas B

 

RE: Touch screen volume control, posted on February 20, 2008 at 01:41:16
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Yes it can be done - but I don't recommend it.

Volume is on the status bar and by selecting it, a control appears that you can drag to a new level. Problem with this is you can very easily set volume to maximum which could harm your equipment. Its a clumsy way to adjust volume and can be easily set to max accidentally.

 

RE: Cue files, posted on February 20, 2008 at 07:00:59
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Just did a test with a folder containing 7 more folders. Each of the 7 has a CD (cue & wav content file). cMP loaded each CD correctly.

Check the following:
  1. Make sure for each CD, there's a .cue and content file located in the same folder.
  2. Set Diagnostics to Yes (in cMP settings). This will display how cMP processes each of your folders in the library. It may help to use this against your problem CDs which you could store in a temporary folder just to see what cMP does.


Note that cMP only looks for .cue files in a folder. Should no .cue files exist, nothing is processed.

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on February 21, 2008 at 05:02:17
artcheng@netvigator.com
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Joined: November 14, 2003
 Dear Cics,

Do you think the use of SSD hard disk can eliminate the need for external power supply? I found some SSD here at reasonable price

http://www.neostore.com/

I suppose 16G should be enough as I will be using NAS to store my music anyway.

 

RE: SSD drives, posted on February 22, 2008 at 04:52:11
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 These are brilliant and I would use them with the external 'dirty' power supply. Although power consumption is lower, its best not to have its load on the main PSU. My main interest in these drives is elimination of mechanical vibrations. Hopefully soon, these will be cheaper and offer greater capacity.

The site seems to offer high performance (100MB/s read) SSDs. Sure 16GB would be plenty for just the system (you only need about 2GB) - it will be interesting to compare sound with SSD only vs SSD + NAS. With SSD only, all networking in Windows must be disabled.

 

RE: SSD drives, posted on February 22, 2008 at 04:58:44
artcheng@netvigator.com
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Joined: November 14, 2003
 May be we can just copy the files to the SSD during play back. So there will be no traffic with the NAS?

 

RE: SSD drives, posted on February 22, 2008 at 09:17:02
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 There's no traffic during playback as CD is loaded in RAM. I'm assuming sufficient RAM is available.

Networking functionality causes a larger Windows runtime footprint. From my experience, doing away with network functions improves sound.

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on February 23, 2008 at 08:05:56
Thomas B


 
Can a mini-ITX express mobo be used with cMP?

/Thomas B

 

RE: using mini-ITX mobos, posted on February 23, 2008 at 12:45:33
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Yes it works. I have an expensive $400 mini-ITX mobo (Intel chipset) that allows for 12V1 & 12V2 usage (most mini-ITX mobos only use the 20pin connector which is not ideal).

I built a cMP using this expensive mobo. Sound was good but the Biostar micro-ATX $55 mobo does much better using VIA chipset. I've rebuilt using Biostar mobo...

 

cMP - memory for 192k sources Windows XP 64 bits, posted on February 23, 2008 at 15:15:42
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 Memory needed for playing 192k source is over the 4 Go windows XP 32 limite. Any experience running cMP with Windows XP 64 bits (128 Go limite) ? does sound quality will be at the same level ?

 

Do believe it could challenge the Klimax ?, posted on February 23, 2008 at 15:39:45
multiblitz


 
Linn Klimax is getting faboulus reviews currently in Germany...it would be extremely interesting how your setup with a DCS D/S-Converter compares to the Klimax...

 

RE: cMP - memory for 192k sources Windows XP 64 bits, posted on February 23, 2008 at 21:37:04
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Never tried this.

Adding all that extra GB will be a negative - I find RAM quality and quantity to affect sound and therefore try to keep it at 1GB (and SRC upsample to 24/96 or 24/192). Under XP 32 bit, 4GB should work for up to an hour long of 24/192 files. cMP is built for Windows 32 bit only - a different cMP version is needed for Windows 64 bit.

Where are you sourcing 24/192 music?

 

RE: Do believe it could challenge the Klimax ?, posted on February 23, 2008 at 23:18:54
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Linn's Klimax DS has a design approach like Slim Device's SB or Transporter. That is, Player streams music from a File Server via Ethernet (not sure about WiFi) and outputs Analogue (no digital outs). It's not a memory player. For the price it should be good - is there comparisons to the Transporter?

I've never heard the Kilmax DS so cannot comment on how it compares to cMP. All I can say is: cMP feeding either dCS Scarlatti or AA Prestige SE takes music playback into the best of analogue world (high-end turntables stuff).

 

RE: cMP - memory for 192k sources Windows XP 64 bits, posted on February 24, 2008 at 03:49:58
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 I'm making my own 192k sources from analogue tape with nakamishi and tascam analogue device and plan to rent professional grade equipement to convert these to the highest possible quality. For the moment the state of the art is an A/D DCS converter going up to 384 k. It's alwaya problem to reduice hight sampling rate to a lower one, so I would like to be able to lisen to the same sampling rate (dreaming up to 384 k).

 

cMP & DCS converter, a dream, thanks Mr CICS, posted on February 24, 2008 at 04:17:11
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 Just would like to say thanks to Mr CICS.

I own a dcs delius converter for 3 years connected to a median 500 c drive and a DSP meridian 518. The power amplifier is a musical fidelity F15, 100w, class A, my speaker are Proac respons 1S, no preamp.

2 weeks ago, i decided to build a computer transport : it's note complety done (windows XP tunning done, externaly power sata hdd drive, RME HDSP 9632 but old motherboard, 3D video card, ...)

and WAOO : what a dream, it's incredible ! I even could'nt realise that class A (meridian 518) and B (meridian 500) equipements from sterephile could sound so bad !!!!!!!.

Sometime I even think that MP3 music sound better now than cd trough my old setup !

My leaving room is quite small but what a sound, my Proac are singing. Even at full power (100W class A) the leasening is relaxing. I wanted to buy a sub woofer last month, now I don't want anymore. Now I can feal the physical impact of low freqency with a bookshield speaker, incredible !!!!! High freqency are sweet so sweet.





 

RE: cMP & DCS converter, a dream, thanks Mr CICS, posted on February 26, 2008 at 06:00:11
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Nice feedback! Thanks. I played a CD the old way a while back and couldn't believe how poor it sounded - lots of important details either lost or distorted...

After all changes are done, apply the Minlogon optimization. This gives further improvements. Its an advanced optimization and requires one to reverse it whenever you install or upgrade software but its well worth it. Also some software like Autoruns won't work after this optimization (works when optimization is reversed).

 

Using cMP with EMU soundcards, posted on February 26, 2008 at 23:44:26
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 I moved the Juli@ soundcard to my reference system as its digital output and driver quality is excellent. My cMP now has 2 soundcards (the other being RME HDSP 9652). Comparing the 2 has been very interesting. I disable the soundcard not in use. For my second setup, I decided on EMU's excellent 1212M (its analogue outs are superior to Juli@'s AKM 112db SNR versus Crystal 120db SNR DACs). Unfortunately, EMU's drivers don't offer latency settings and its drivers are cumbersome.

Users of EMU cards will have difficulty when switching to cMP Mode. Settings in XP Mode are not carried across. To fix this, you must start EMU's Patch Mixer Application when cMP starts. Steps:

  1. Select 'Process Explorer' as Startup in cMP Settings
  2. Change cicsMemoryPlayer.pth (in c:\Program Files\cics Memory Player) file to reflect a new program for Process Explorer (change is shown in bold text):
    RIPPER #M "c:\program files\exact audio copy\EAC.exe"
    CUE_PLAYER #M "c:\program files\foobar2000\foobar2000.exe" %C
    LIBRARY_MANAGER "c:\windows\explorer.exe"
    OSK "c:\program files\cics memory player\ahkosk.exe"
    PROCESS_EXPLORER "C:\Program Files\Creative Professional\E-MU PatchMix DSP\EmuPMixDSP.exe" /LaunchMixer
    EXPLORER_KILL "c:\windows\system32\taskkill.exe" /F /IM explorer.exe
    TOUCH_SCREEN "c:\program files\touchkit\touchkit.exe"
    PREP_PLAYER

  3. Reboot system in cMP Mode. On startup, EMU's Patch Mixer application is started and all settings are now available.


If you want to run Process Explorer, then start this manually from cMP using Explore > Desktop > start Process Explorer.

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on February 27, 2008 at 15:39:25
dzzmiller@yahoo.com


 
I've been working on an audio player using cics ideas. Fun.

It seems to me that the PSU and drives (esata) should be in a separate case.

Taking this further, I'm seeing a large 12v battery as useful for my many 12v DC pieces of equipment.

Anyone use the Asus Xonar sound card? Specs look good. Any idea if the PCI-E version of this card would have an advantage over the PCI version?

 

Why Pentium 2140 ? 2160 & 2180 can run at same speed same voltage, posted on February 28, 2008 at 01:16:30
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 Why Pentium 2140 ? 2160 & 2180 & 2200 can run at same speed same voltage !
With stepspeed all the 21xx & 2200 can run at the same lowest speed. They all consume the same power at the same speed but the theorical quality of theses CPU is in this order 2200 > 2180 > 2160 > 2140.

Why note the new celeron E1200 with only 512 k of L2 cache, so sould have lower power consumption.

 

Motherboard MSI with VIA P4M900 could be good, posted on February 28, 2008 at 01:27:23
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 MB Biostar with P4M900 VIA chipset are very difficult to find in France. I found a MSI MB PM9MV with VIA chipset with good Bios option. It is a small mATX MB, only 1 PCI slot, so I think It could have the quality of the Biostar but with even reduce power consumption.

 

RE: Why Pentium 2140 ? 2160 & 2180 can run at same speed same voltage, posted on February 28, 2008 at 03:00:50
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Others would also work as long as BOTH voltage and clock speed is low. I'm not sure about clock speed which for E2140 its 1200MHz. This is impressive as SRC 24/96 is still comfortably accommodated.

E1200 could work as well (cache reduction to 512KB lowers power) - definitely worth looking into.

 

RE: Motherboard MSI with VIA P4M900 could be good, posted on February 28, 2008 at 03:09:58
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Should work well. I know AudioBling uses an Asus mobo based on VIA chipset.

The important thing is using VIA P4M900 chipset and BIOS flexibility.

 

RE: Why Pentium 2140 ? 2160 & 2180 can run at same speed same voltage, posted on February 28, 2008 at 03:46:18
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 I have found on the intel site the voltage specification for the pentium 21XX, it's the same for all. For The 22XX the voltage increase a little. So a 2180 should have a better "inside" than the 2140.

http://processorfinder.intel.com/List.aspx?ProcFam=2841

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on February 28, 2008 at 07:42:56
dzzmiller@yahoo.com


 
My thoughts/changes so far:

Putting USB on the PCI-e 1x slot. This gives USB a serial connection instead of sharing the PCI bus.

Using an external USB DAC. If the computer provides bit-perfect USB data to the DAC, all the computer case concerns about heat and radiation go away.

I think this area is the weak part of cics's hardware design: The need to make the computer slow to (potentially) reduce problems with the DAC. Removing the DAC is a beter solution for many people.

PCI is a shared bus. PCI-e is a dedicated serial-like connection.

It's a fairly trivial task to provide perfect data to an external DAC, if it has a small buffer and a good clock.

So I guess I like most of the software approach of this project, but the logic of the hardware design escapes me. Especially underclocking.

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on February 28, 2008 at 23:08:20
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
I think this area is the weak part of cics's hardware design: The need to make the computer slow to (potentially) reduce problems with the DAC. Removing the DAC is a beter solution for many people.


DAC can be placed internally (as in soundcard providing analogue outs) or externally (via USB, PCI/e soundcard, firewire, ethernet). External DAC would probably require SPDIF interface. In both scenarios, you'll want to minimize electrical interference to improve sonic performance. For example, high speed clocks generate high energy RF spikes which is detrimental to sound output. Hence lower clock speed is desired. RAM settings have remarkable impact on sound: the more aggressive, the greater the noise.

PCI is a shared bus. PCI-e is a dedicated serial-like connection.


Yes PCI is a shared technology BUT the design applied results in a single PCI device (the soundcard) - no sharing. Other PCI devices like onboard sound is disabled. Also a dedicated interrupt is used. PCIe may not be a better choice given its large latencies. Its implementation is a challenge for sound as PCIe prefers large data chunks against smaller transactions. PCI together with ASIO suggests a better combination.

Using an external USB DAC. If the computer provides bit-perfect USB data to the DAC, all the computer case concerns about heat and radiation go away. ... It's a fairly trivial task to provide perfect data to an external DAC, if it has a small buffer and a good clock.


USB is an option for outputting sound and by design has a buffer and clock. USB however requires proper audio drivers to ensure bit perfect delivery and these are not readily available.

Achieving bit perfect delivery (which is also achieved using other interfaces like PCI, Ethernet, etc.) is one important aspect to good sound. The remaining aspects are jitter and correct upsampling. Using SRC ensures upsampling is correct.

Jitter requires both hardware and system software optimizations. This is an ongoing challenge with less jitter yielding better sound. DACs are hugely susceptible to master clock (aka work clock or sample clock) jitter. Periodic jitter (sine or square wave) is most offensive giving ahamarmonics whilst random jitter deteriorates DAC SNR. Given the ultra low levels of jitter (~ps) required for high quality sound, subtle changes can make a difference.

Do this experiment: set TRRD on RAM to 2T (instead of 3T) - with this simple hardware change, sound is harsher and over time its unpleasant. Let me know what you get...

 

Power consumption E21xx / C1200 / E22XX, posted on February 29, 2008 at 08:08:32
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 You will find to the link below in the middle of the page the power comsumption of the above CPU. It's the power consumtion of the PC not the cpu itself.

http://www.matbe.com/articles/lire/681/intel-e1200-le-celeron-devient-dual-core/page2.php

It's in french, but esasy to understand. The title of the picture "Consommation configuration" means "Consumption of the PC".

There are two stepping the L2 and the M0 for the E2XXX. The M0 is the lattest, is more power saving, all E2XXX are in M0 now. The C1200 is in M0.


 

Power consumption E21xx / C1200 / E22XX, posted on February 29, 2008 at 10:26:59
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 You will find to the link below in the middle of the page the power comsumption of the above CPU. It's the power consumtion of the PC not the cpu itself.

http://www.matbe.com/articles/lire/681/intel-e1200-le-celeron-devient-dual-core/page2.php

It's in french, but esasy to understand. The title of the picture "Consommation configuration" means "Consumption of the PC".

There are two stepping the L2 and the M0 for the E2XXX. The M0 is the lattest, is more power saving, all E2XXX are in M0 now. The C1200 is in M0.


 

What about some of the newer Intel Processors for building a PC?, posted on February 29, 2008 at 16:34:20
64 bit


 
There seem to be some fast new higher spec (expensive) Intel Core 2 Duo Processors that look like great candidates for HD/DVD as well as audio? As far as I can makeout some of the new ones run cooler and have lower power dissipation (while higher than the E2140) and might be acceptable?

However I cannot find any measured power dissipation specifications to confirm this. One listed the "Extended HALT power" of 16W compared to E2140 at 8W (and I am not sure how to interpret this)

Do you have any thoughts or know where to find the power dissipation specs?

Possible candidates (in order possible acceptance):
X7800; T9*00; T8*00; E2200(800MHz)
T7*00; (667MHz)

Thanks
Frank

 

faster chips, posted on February 29, 2008 at 20:27:47
dzzmiller
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Joined: February 22, 2008
 The newer 45nm chips are more power efficient. But for a purpose built audio machine the 2120 is more than enough processor. I would want more power for video processing, but for 5.1 or 7.1 this machine should be fine.

I'm still trying to get a handle on why running the processor faster reduces audio quality. This just doesn't seem right.

 

RE: What about some of the newer Intel Processors for building a PC?, posted on March 1, 2008 at 00:05:19
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Specs only offer TDP and Halt State power figures. Exact power consumption depends on core voltage for which power figures are not given.

Only way power is measured is at the AC plug with system doing different tasks and with different configurations (eg. overclocking). Here's a recent and very useful measure across different CPUs and frequencies (thanks n_vincent):



E2140 offers low consumption (M0 stepping would be better and is not shown). E1200 is best (when not overclocked) - this is due largely to lower L2 cache. I've tested E6300, E2140 and now the E1200. Sonically, E1200 is a further improvement to E2140 (@M0 stepping).

For DVD, if you're planning to use zoomplayer, a faster CPU is a must. My E6300 coped well with a reasonable amount of PAL video upsampling - increasing to 2 times, E6300 failed to cope with the load. A DVD player (like PowerDVD) using onboard video chipset for processing is not CPU intensive. Either E1200 or E2160 (E2140 is no longer available) would do.

 

RE: Motherboard MSI with VIA P4M900 could be good, posted on March 1, 2008 at 00:52:53
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 there is special things with the msi p9mv mb, it could be possible that the power consumption is lower than with the biostar one due to smaller form factor and only one extention slot. I have order one so I will report about it and bios options

 

CPU Recommendation: Intel E2140 not available, use E1200 (its better!), posted on March 2, 2008 at 02:36:26
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 E1200 (Celeron branded, ~$55) like the Pentium Dual Core E2140 remains a Core 2 Duo processor at lower specifications. Its performance is very close to the E2140 - there's no difference in CPU loads. With 512KB less L2 cache, power consumption is lower which benefits audio (through less EMI and the lowering of load on PSU reduces ripple noise). When underclocked, core voltage is 1.168V with clock speed of 1200MHz - exactly as the E2140.

By design, CPU remains the single largest component for power consumption in cMP. Upgrading to E1200 from E2140 or other processor is straight forward - just be careful with the thermal grease making sure it doesn't spill onto the contacts (otherwise mobo must be replaced). Sound improves on whats already splendid - clarity of low level details is amazing and natural.

With E1200, its best to use mildest RAM settings as per documentation, i.e. Default DDR voltage (@1.80V), DRAM Clock at 200MHz and DRAM Timing set to 'Auto by SPD'. In addition, set '1T CMD Support' to Disable (command rate in CPU-Z should reflect 2T). More details on RAM settings can be found in version 0.3 paper, section 3.11 (steps 1 & 2). If you have the E2140, its definitely worth upgrading to E1200. Allow sufficient time for burn-in (50-100 hours).

 

What the optimun hyperX Ram (PC 6400, PC 9600) & Ram Power consumption, posted on March 3, 2008 at 12:49:38
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 I'm in my way to chose a new memory.

They is plenty of HyperX memory module from PC 6400 up to PC 9600 at a quite resonable price.

“Standard†PC6400 CL4 - KHX6400D2LL/1G at bout 30 $
http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KHX6400D2LL_1G.pdf

“High grade†PC6400 CL3 KHX6400D2UL/1G at about 90 $
http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KHX6400D2UL_1G.pdf

“High grade†PC9600 CL5 KHX9600D2/1G at about 90 $
http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KHX9600D2_1G.pdf

Is there any advantage to chose one above a another ?

General HyperX memory modulle at the link below
http://www.kingston.com/hyperx/products/khx_ddr2.asp

About the RAM power I have read in the HyperX datasheets that is about 2 W. In the document “the art of building computer transportsv0.3†the power of the memory module is report to be 10 to 12 W for 1 G ! Is there a explanation of that ?

 

RE: What the optimun hyperX Ram (PC 6400, PC 9600) & Ram Power consumption, posted on March 3, 2008 at 23:10:10
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 It's very difficult to establish exact RAM power consumption. Best way I've found to date is with SiSoft Sandra's Memmory Bandwith test - they provide calculations which is inclusive of northbridge chipset. See this for more details. HyperX / VIA shows 5.4W & Corsair / Intel shows 15.5W (as per Edward's post).

Kingston HyperX is an excellent choice - I would recommend KHX6400D2UL/1G as its designed for lower CAS latency (this is most difficult to achieve and requires better quality parts). I use this in my reference transport.

 

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on March 4, 2008 at 06:32:29
Thomas B


 
Hi Cics -- What´s your opinion on the coming Intel ultra-low voltage Diamondville platform?

 

Intel's Diamondville @ 4 watts will be a huge benefit, posted on March 5, 2008 at 23:46:33
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 and based on this article the dual core version is coming in Q308. Processor is soldered onto board (another benefit) and desktop mobo sports 2 power supply sources as well which allows for dual rail use. I've read elsewhere, Intel is partnering with VIA for its mini-ITX platform.

Also, lookout for Samsung's planned release (later this year) of SSD drives at 256GB capacity and lower prices.

These aspects combined will be very beneficial to audio...

 

RE: Intel's Diamondville @ 4 watts will be a huge benefit, posted on March 7, 2008 at 11:29:35
Thomas B


 
You think a PICO-PSU can power this mobo?

 

RE: Pico PSU, posted on March 9, 2008 at 03:46:18
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 I doubt it would work for the mobo as seen in article as it needs a 4pin CPU power feed as well. Pico PSU only provides 20pin connector.

Its DC-DC conversion is not ripple free (although power is sourced from a 12V battery). Car PCs use these types of PSUs and they have ripple noise (in some cases higher than standard ATX PSUs).

 

Minor bug, posted on March 10, 2008 at 04:44:52
giulio


 
Hi cics,

I just noted the following minor bug.

cmp does not move down directories when their name contains a dot (e.g. J. S. Bach does not work but J S Bach is fine).

Best
giulio

 

Just tested with 'B. B. King' and no problems, posted on March 10, 2008 at 12:24:41
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Created a few other combinations and I could get playback from all approaches (i.e. Genre, Artist & All). Very strange.

Did you have to change J. S. Bach to J S Bach in .cue file? Post one that failed to work. This post may shed more light.

 

Also set correct CPU Affinity & How 2 adjust latency, posted on March 10, 2008 at 22:39:30
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Using Process Explorer or Task Manager, set EMU's mixer (EmuPMixDSP.exe) to CPU 1. This is important to achieve low latency playback.

Foobar has updated its ASIO component to version 1.2.6 which allows for ASIO configuration. EMU drivers don't allow for direct latency settings - latency can only be changed in host application. This is where 1.2.6 helps - a new 'Configure' button is available when editing ASIO driver in foobar. For EMU 1212M, default latency is 50ms with lowest at 2ms. ASIO drivers allowing for direct latency setting don't need this ASIO component.

 

RE: Just tested with 'B. B. King' and no problems, posted on March 11, 2008 at 02:48:59
giulio


 
Hi,

I meant if the dot is in a directory name. My directory structure is Genre/Artist/Work/...

In the specific case it was Classical/J. S. Bach/Well Tempered Clavier/whatever.cue

CMP failed to go down the directory.

No problem with Classical/J S Bach/Well Tempered Clavier/whatever.cue

Hope this helps.

Best
Giulio

 

OK that helps. Just recreated this minor bug - will change in next release. Thx., posted on March 12, 2008 at 00:29:22
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 ..

 

Good Tools for Windows XP tunning, posted on March 17, 2008 at 05:23:30
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 I have just done my second step for my computer transport. For windows optimisation I used a tool name nlite www.nliteos.com. It's freeware. It able you to make a fool install cd for windows xp. the first step is to select what windows components you want or don't want and after it build you a windows xp bootable install disk totaly custmized. The level of contrôl is very high. The original I386 folder is 540 MB, mine is only 89,6 MB. After installation all windows directories (Windows, program files, personal ... ) are only 260 MB. Running windows take only 29 MB of ram. All the settings for windows optimisation are save in a INI file. So it could be possible to distribuate here this file after fine tweaking and testing.

They is another tool name xplite, www.litepc.com, (a freeware and a 39$ version) it allow you to fine tune all the windows components. Just had a quick look but can be a good tool and a very easy way to do things.

The question is I don't know if theses tools can go futher than the CICS windows optimisations. In a screan shoot of the CICS doc, It is possible to see the task manager with a load of 40 MB. So It's 10 MB more than I have.

Nicolas.

 

RE: Good Tools for Windows XP tunning, posted on March 17, 2008 at 08:31:14
artcheng@netvigator.com
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Joined: November 14, 2003
 For those who insist on Vista. You can also try Vlite

http://www.vlite.net/

 

Sounds very interesting - now to hear cics's appraisal, posted on March 17, 2008 at 14:47:00
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 I've got a feeling what you're describing might make it a little easier to get a "transport" configured.

Since I am a cics devotee I must wait and hear what the Master has to say. Does this go as far as the "minlogon" enhancement?

Sounds like some good detective work!

Bye,

 

RE: Good Tools for Windows XP tunning, posted on March 17, 2008 at 22:04:41
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 I had a brief look at nlite a while back... These tools certainly help with reducing Windows disk footprint but more importantly, its the reduction in runtime footprint that helps.

Here's a more recent process view. For Windows, I get 11.8MB and if I include other components, total usage is 17.6MB.

The thing I'm looking for is the elimination of lssas.exe (Windows security subsystem) - if you play with cMP suspend settings, in my setup, there's improvement when suspending lsass. But this causes indefinite waits in foobar / asio driver. Is there a minlogon type replacement of lsass.exe? This will be beneficial.

 

Celeron processor experience & latest settings, posted on March 18, 2008 at 10:05:00
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Dear cics,

I am sorry it has taken so long to give you my feedback on the Celeron processor.

When first installed after about fifteen minutes of playing music out of one channel (the right) there would be this horrible sound which I at first took to be a bad tube. Why a processor would effect sound in only one channel is fascinating to me.

After days of being on and playing music about half the time these episodes came to an end. Though even now on the odd occassion I will hear a distressing sound that, unlike the NOISE I heard before is like a perturbation that modulates the music for one or two seconds and then it is gone. I bring this up because I never heard anything like this with the "old" processor.

I am not able to make a serious assessment of how good this is compared to the "old" since it has taken much too long to settle down. I do know that cMP continues to amaze with its ability to make music.

I have used my old motherboard, processor and HDD's to make a home computer. Nothing has gone to waste!

Is your "process view" the result of MINLOGON? Anything in addition for US to do?

THANKS, as always,

Rick McInnis

 

minlogon, posted on March 18, 2008 at 18:57:07
ninekit


 
Hello and thanks to everyone in this community for the tireless exploration and sharings.

I had tried the minlogon tweak last night and found the sonic performance is worse than the normal winlogon. Checked the processexplorer / taskmgr and could not really find any benefit at all. An annoying side effect is I cannot kill windows explorer in minlogon mode. Pls. note I am not using cMP yet but had followed most of the AOB version 0.3's suggested optimisations.

Reverted back to the winlogon and I am happy again with the spacious sound. One possibility is after switching to the system default user, I need to redo all the optimisations, I have done some, but possibly not all which resulted in the sub-optimal performance.

I am eager to try the ultimate cMP but may I ask is there any plan to have it compatible with individually ripped track in FLAC format instead of cue/wave combo.

And had anyone tried the Otachan SSRC in "ULTRA" mode? Which I believe I've read its a better SRC algorithm and yield better noise floor compared to Secret Rabbit Code. I cannot try out myself as my rig is an old and slow AthlonXP which won't even run SSRC in TOP mode.

 

RE: Celeron processor experience & latest settings, posted on March 18, 2008 at 22:32:24
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Here's a snapshot of processes AFTER winlogon:



For Windows, its 16MB and cMP adds another 7.3MB giving a total of 23.3MB.

In your setup, make sure CPU-Z gives this:



Your voltage may be different (1.296V) for 24/192. Do you have same issue at 24/96?

These are the RAM settings:



This is the standard DDR2 200MHz. For 24/192, you may need the faster RAM speed of 267MHZ - test this.

 

RE: minlogon, posted on March 18, 2008 at 22:50:13
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Please don't implement Minlogon until all optimizations are done (including running cMP). Explorer and Autoruns will either not work or behave differently.

Playing individually ripped tracks in FLAC:

I received an email that has a good work-around for this. Use cMP to start foobar and thereafter use File > Open... (or other approach) in foobar to play CD. This will give benefits of threads optimizations and everything else but not RAM playback. With this approach, use 256MB RAM.

 

SSRC, posted on March 19, 2008 at 01:52:17
ninekit


 
Thanks cics,

http://otachan.com/foo_dsp_ssrc_057.7z

The link above is the mentioned SSRC foobar2000 0.9x plugin, if anyone care compare it to the Secret Rabbit Code.

 

SSRC, posted on March 19, 2008 at 02:22:28
ninekit


 
Thanks cics,

http://otachan.com/foo_dsp_ssrc_057.7z

The link above is the mentioned SSRC foobar2000 0.9x plugin, if anyone care compare it to the Secret Rabbit Code.

 

Thanks and a .flac playback idea, posted on March 19, 2008 at 09:36:06
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Dear cics,

Thanks for all of the "pictures". I will compare tonight.

After downloading the Dr. Ebbets Beatles transfers which are .flac files, the first I have ever downloaded, and wanting to enjoy them with cMP AND after having no success coming up with .cue files I wondered:

could one use a virtual cdrom drive program and process the STUFF through EAC, generating the .cue files just as it does for regular cd's?

I have not tried this but I HOPE it will work.

What do you think?

As always,
THANKS,

Rick McInnis

 

RE: Thanks and a .flac playback idea, posted on March 19, 2008 at 11:07:02
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Never tried that before.

Simplest way is to just create the .cue file. There's nothing complicated in them - just CD information followed by tracks with each track you indicate time start position (eg 'INDEX 01 16:18:62'). Because time is used, the .cue file works with .flac & .wav files at any sample rate and bit depth!

 

RE: Thanks and a .flac playback idea, posted on March 19, 2008 at 18:19:57
ninekit


 
Can a .cue file point to multiple .flac files? Just searched the web, there seems no easy ways to create a .cue file from a bunch of .flac files as a playlist.

 

That's what motivated my thinking about this, posted on March 20, 2008 at 09:03:25
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Dear cics and niekit,

I tried the separate .cue for each track and, for some reason, it doesn't seem ideal. I could not get them to play in cMP even though they show up on the menu.

PLUS, the separate .cue's for each song is a PAIN! I also wonder if it is better to convert to .wav before "sending" to FOOBAR. I plan on using the SWITCH program to convert to .wav and then use the virtual cdrom to EAC and see what happens.

When I played the .flac files through cMP-less FOOBAR I could not up-sample to 192KHz. I figure it takes too much "computing power" to convert to .wav and to upsample, so better to handle the conversion before.

cics, I had a chance (a mistake) to listen to 96 kHz last weekend and the difference between 96 and 192 is instantly percieved.

 

A Remote Pocket-PC (...and some more questions)?, posted on March 22, 2008 at 13:02:28
multiblitz


 
Cics, thanks for your effort, I will have the showdown tomorrow - I build a PC exact to your specs and we will see how it performs against my Audionet VIP G2 Player tomorrow...

A few questions:

A. A Remote Pocket-PC support would be cool. So, instead to walk to the Zalman Case, using a small Samsung POcket PC over Wlan sitting in your chair would be something...have you any plans on that ?

B- I got a few error messages when tring to run cMP, until I figured out that it anticipates, that foobar is always installed under "program files". With a german Windows installation, all prgrams are under "programme"...I guess this is an easy fix...I fixed it for me persoanlly by installing foobar in an "english" way...

C. HEy, I really would love to hera more about your Scarlatti experience and Cmp. I heard a DCS Puccini at a dealer, sound nice, but as well a bit soft / lower energy. I am really thinking into a very similar direction than what you already did, the convenience of the PC with the best Sound posssible. How far away from the Scarlatti are the analog outputs of the Soundcards you tried ?

D. HAve you tried getting rid of a HArdDisk (booting from a Compactflash) and streaming over LAN ?

E. How do you get 24Bit enabled ? I have the Juli@ as recommended by you, I can set it to 192khz, I can choose ASIOm I can use SRC to upsample to 192khz. I have not specified anywhere 24 bit though.

Best Regards

Frank

 

cMP (with RME HDSP 9652) to dCS Scarlatti DAC achieves Jitter of 72ps!, posted on March 24, 2008 at 13:15:31
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 I've been very keen to get to the jitter measure for cMP. Jitter at Jpp is 72ps when using the Scarlatti DAC. This explains why the Scarlatti Clock, when connected, sounded poorer.

Jitter is a very large subject (a paper on its own) and I decided to post the topic separately - see link below. You'll find the full analysis and details of how I got to 72ps.

 

RE: A Remote Pocket-PC (...and some more questions)?, posted on March 24, 2008 at 13:37:21
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Frank,

Your timing is impeccable! Let me know how the comparison goes...

Your questions:

A. A Remote Pocket-PC support would be cool. So, instead to walk to the Zalman Case, using a small Samsung POcket PC over Wlan sitting in your chair would be something...have you any plans on that ?

Best way to achieve remote is using a wireless mouse. You want to avoid Windows Networking for best performance. There's a component in cMP called cicsRemote that gives full remote capability from listening chair if you have wireless mouse.

B- I got a few error messages when tring to run cMP, until I figured out that it anticipates, that foobar is always installed under "program files". With a german Windows installation, all prgrams are under "programme"...I guess this is an easy fix...I fixed it for me persoanlly by installing foobar in an "english" way...

You can change foobar's location in the cicsMemoryPlayer.pth file (you'll find this in cMP's installed location). The entry:

CUE_PLAYER #M "c:\program files\foobar2000\foobar2000.exe" %C


can be changed for your specific setup.

C. HEy, I really would love to hera more about your Scarlatti experience and Cmp. I heard a DCS Puccini at a dealer, sound nice, but as well a bit soft / lower energy. I am really thinking into a very similar direction than what you already did, the convenience of the PC with the best Sound posssible. How far away from the Scarlatti are the analog outputs of the Soundcards you tried ?

See this post.

D. HAve you tried getting rid of a HArdDisk (booting from a Compactflash) and streaming over LAN ?

SSDs is the better option and using 2nd power supply. Avoid any Networking as this adds too much Windows runtime overheads making for poorer sound.


E. How do you get 24Bit enabled ? I have the Juli@ as recommended by you, I can set it to 192khz, I can choose ASIOm I can use SRC to upsample to 192khz. I have not specified anywhere 24 bit though.

Juli@'s ASIO driver tells foobar it needs 24 bits (in some cases 32 bits). You'll see this in Foobar > preferences > output > Output Format. Some drivers won't allow this to be changed. When my cMP with Juli@ connects to the Scarlatti DAC, the DAC show 00/96 (stop) then 24/96 (i.e. 24 bits active).

 

RE: cMP (with RME HDSP 9652) to dCS Scarlatti DAC achieves Jitter of 72ps!, posted on March 26, 2008 at 22:38:47
Ken Wong
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Joined: March 26, 2008
 I am using Benchmark DAC1 USB and want to build a computer transports as suggested in your articles.

Do the methods and config. recommended in AOB and cMP also work with USB connection only between the desktop and Benchmark DAC1 USB other than using a sound card?

If not, is there any other config. suitable for USB connection?

thanks

Ken

 

Yes cMP works with USB, posted on March 27, 2008 at 01:33:05
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Hello Ken,

I know of some cMP users that use USB devices which takes USB input and outputs SPDIF. In your case, the Benchmark DAC1 USB would convert to analogue. There shouldn't be any problems here.

Key thing you should lookout for is the USB audio driver that supports the device (preferably it should be ASIO compatible) - this is very important for best quality.

 

Quality of PSU, posted on March 27, 2008 at 15:54:39
multiblitz


 
I thought you find this interesting:

http://www.tomshardware.com/de/Netzteile-Stresstest,testberichte-1162-67.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/de/Netzteile-Stresstest,testberichte-1162-68.html

...seems like the Fortron is a very good choice...minimum ripple, no moving parts....

 

RE: Quality of PSU, posted on March 27, 2008 at 23:59:18
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Yes that's a brilliant PSU - both 3.3V & 12V ripple noise is very low for a STRESS test! With reduced load on PSU, ripple levels would be much lower.

3.3V:



12V:



 

RE: Quality of PSU, posted on March 28, 2008 at 01:55:51
ninekit


 
Whats the PCI voltage supply? 3.3v or 12v? If its the former, do the graphs suggested Seasonic is even better?

Thanks

 

RE: Quality of PSU, posted on March 28, 2008 at 17:08:12
frennekamp@netcologne.de
Audiophile

Posts: 30
Joined: November 18, 2000
 Ripple is only one thing...I would avoid a PSU with a vent.

 

RE: Quality of PSU, posted on March 28, 2008 at 22:16:25
artcheng@netvigator.com
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Joined: November 14, 2003
 I think ripples can also be reduced with filter chokes.

 

Finetuning cMP, posted on March 29, 2008 at 05:22:54
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 These are important tuning aspects for cMP which goes beyond the documentation.

  1. Make sure this BIOS change is applied. Its a component for Vista thats not used in XP.
  2. Use a quality power cord for the 'dirty' power inlet of cMP.
  3. RAM settings have large impact on sound quality. Recommendedation is the default 200MHz setting as per documentation.

    If you're using an E21xx processor with very high quality RAM, than these posts will help. Also, for TRFC, set highest value only if RAM used supports 'Autorefresh' (see data sheet of RAM used). Memory refreshes are complex power consuming tasks.

    For E1200 processor, stick to recommendation here. Take note of '1T CMD Support' setting change.
  4. If your DAC supports 24/192 SPDIF / AES input, output 24/192 from foobar / SRC upsampler. Processor cannot be underclocked as more processing power is needed. Use default power setting of Home / Office Desk.
  5. SSD drives should be available in next few months at lower cost and higher capacites. Benefits of these drives are:
    • no BLDC motors (therefore eliminating associated electrical interference)
    • no vibrations
    • lower power consumption
    • faster sequential read bandwidth which improves RAM load times

  6. Advanced: This is work in progress and only applies to setups with no Networking functions. Using Autoruns, disable these LSA providers which can be found in the 'LSA Providers' tab:



    This reduces Windows Sercurity subsystem footprint (lsass.exe). I haven't tested the remaining 2 checked items - I suspect this will cause a system rebuild.
  7. Advanced: Implement Minlogon as a final step.


Advanced items above are high risk - any mistakes in implementation could result in a system rebuild. Take great care.

Noise floor after DAC's output is important. In my case this only involves an I/C cable (no preamp) and amps. Upgrading from SR Absolute Ref X2 to SR Tesla Apex allowed for improvements to become clearly audible. In other words, the chain after your DAC could become a limiting factor.

 

What is the best soundcard ?, posted on March 30, 2008 at 03:32:04
frennekamp@netcologne.de
Audiophile

Posts: 30
Joined: November 18, 2000
 In such a Ultra-High-End-Project, I would guess that the soundcard with lowest jitter is a must. If DCS charges 100000 $ for a clock only, the soundcard with the best clock / lowest jitter should be cheap in comparison. So, what has already been checked / what can we learn from the specs ?

I understand that you had both, Juli@ and RME and you prefer the RME slightly. What about the Lynx22 ? From it's brochure, they state that they did a ver special effort to reduce jitter significantly...

Nice measurement here for the path with a Lynx2:
http://members.cox.net/alex_lat/Tests/Lynx.PNG

 

RE: It's E2140, using normal voltage., posted on March 30, 2008 at 15:16:04
frennekamp@netcologne.de
Audiophile

Posts: 30
Joined: November 18, 2000
 I had the same thing, but when you change the FSB to 201 and save and then back to 200, tada !!!

 

Lynx / RME would be excellent options - no harm in getting the Juli@ as well, posted on March 31, 2008 at 08:03:38
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Juli@ at such a low cost ~$150 is still a great choice for digital output (up to 24/192) - amazing value and easy to use. I won't use it for analogue outs. It's a quality product (both hw & sw - esp ASIO) - make sure you use its latest unified beta drivers (version 0.979).

I also have the EMU1212M - good hardware & specs but I find its software drivers are poor (latency is limited to 2ms, sw is bulky and slow). EMU is doing a 'Vista' version of its drivers which would be better and should work for XP.

My experience suggests quality of XOs on these cards are very good at ~20ps (similar to Lynx's jitter spectrum - added graph below from the link you provided). It's what happens around the soundcard that causes instability (leading to jitter).




 

So who will be the first to try?, posted on March 31, 2008 at 09:55:02
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Dear cics,

What is required to find out the outcome of the FINAL two LSA providers?

Could one disconnect their old hard drive, install a "new" one, install all that is needed and see what happens?

After seeing the result could one re-connect the original hard drive without harm to what it contains and then implement the change if all went well?

Seems easy enough an experiemtn if that is all that is required?

Am I missing something? If not, I will give it a try.

Nothing is quite as exciting as re-installing WINLOGON and then going back to MINLOGON. I hope I get it right. Now that I have 200 records in my hard drive it is just about time to have to reintall them all, again.

Am I confused or is there a newer version of EAC? If it is a refinement do you think it will have any bearing on what we cMP users require of it?

The E1200 keeps getting better and better. No glitches heard in a week.

THANKS!!!!

Rick McInnis

 

Your approach would work, posted on March 31, 2008 at 10:33:14
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Swapping boot drives work - its probably the quickest way of testing the last 2.

Glad to see the E1200 works flawlessly at 24/192.

 

RE: Good Tools for Windows XP tunning, posted on April 1, 2008 at 21:44:44
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Joined: November 27, 2007
 Looking at the windows XP optimisation, I'm having questions about what could be the utimate tool : WIndows XP embedded.
The minilogon is already comming from XP embedded and why not try to go futher ?
Windows XP embedded is available free for 120 days from microsoft web site. It's plenty of time to play with and to make custom windows xp installations tune with all the embedded tools.
Microsoft tells that a xp embedded can run with a pentium 200 mhz and 32 MB of ram and 140 MB of free space drive and can boot and run from any storage devices the motherboard will allow you. It's possible to make all drives, even the boot drive, as write protected.
exmple : cMP on a usb drive externaly power, no hdd sata chipset activated, boot directly in cMP, ..., plenty of idea
What do you think about that Mr CICS ?

 

RE: Good Tools for Windows XP tunning, posted on April 2, 2008 at 07:36:22
artcheng@netvigator.com
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Joined: November 14, 2003
 This sounds like a very good idea. It is an equivalent of Spblinux. Basically, I run it from USB flash drive and during load up, the whole thing is loaded to RAM and the USB flash drive can be pulled out.

 

It is not allowed, posted on April 2, 2008 at 12:39:57
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 I tried it.

When you restart it tells you that the domain (which seems to be the name you gave your computer) is not recognized or something to that effect.

I only tried the first one but figure the same thing will happen with the "second" one. It just seems to require a repair re-install so I did not lose anything important. Never hurts to check on the other settings!!!

I will try the other one tonight.

As usual I screwed up my MINLOGON installation so it was a perfect opportunity to see what happens. When I was able to re-install withoput losing any music files I thought, why not? I am going to have to do all of the settings anyway.

I did discover something interesting, at least to me. As soon as I went back to WINLOGON the OS wanted to be activated. It makes me wonder of MINLOGON disengages whatever the above was intended to disengage. It might be a moot point? What do you think?

Bye,

And as always with GREAT appreciation,

Rick McInnis

 

Definitely worth a try, posted on April 3, 2008 at 01:52:14
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 What you should look for is a reduced runtime footprint. Most important is the thread count (especially in Windows) followed by things like handles and working storage. Process Explorer gives you these measures.

 

Thx. Those 2 options should remain. Windows does require activation (esp with h/w changes)., posted on April 3, 2008 at 05:29:31
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 .

 

Please elaborate, posted on April 3, 2008 at 09:05:23
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Dear cics,

Does "activation" enhance sound quality by removing whatever it is that keeps telling the "computer" that activation is required?

The short comment confuses me, please explain.

Also, what would be the effect of running cMP in SAFE MODE? Does this eliminate any processes? Or would it actually be worse?

I have not tried it for myself since I am in the process of getting all of the settings SET (most stayed in effect, but one must check anyway).

Holding my breath that I do not screw up MINLOGON, again!!!

Another interesting thing: upon repairing my XP installation, with AUTORUNS, the "things" that are disbled are not re-enabled upon repair they are copied, so on some of these I have three entries, Should I delete the superfluous entries or leave them alone? Are they wasting any space on the hard drive?

At your leisure I would appreciate hearing what you think (otherwise known as THE WAY).

THANKS!!!

Rick McInnis

 

RE: Please elaborate, posted on April 3, 2008 at 10:17:34
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1320
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Activation is just a MS way to check your installation is legal - no sonic improvement whatsoever.

Never tried running things in Safe Mode - I just fixed what was wrong and went back to normal boot.

What you see in Autoruns is the result of repairing - I prefer doing a reinstall. You should be able to reapply the changes in Autoruns.

 

one more ... and then another, posted on April 3, 2008 at 14:31:50
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Dear cics,

I have had no problems with the AUTORUNS changes, and I do wonder if a re-install would be superior/cleaner, maybe I should back up my records/music and do this, but what I was wondering is if you could see any advantage in deleting the duplicated (copies) of the, I do nto know what to call them!, entries within AUTORUNS?

Which, as always, brings up another question: do you see any degradation from backing up your music files? Is anything lost when a back up copy has to be used? What is the best way to back up? An external hard drive? Or should I run RAID in the duplicate mode and simply get another HDD like the one I am using?

THANKS for your help,

Rick McInnis

 

RE: Lynx / RME would be excellent options - no harm in getting the Juli@ as well, posted on April 4, 2008 at 01:23:13
promet


 
cics,

Thanks for your great advices on the Juli@ and the CMP!

I've got very good results with the Juli@. But it seems that the unified driver version 0.979 does not work at all for non-vista OS, eg XP. I tried quite a number of times and from my search, there are other who are reporting the same issue.
The 0.978 version works good though.

 

Mr Cics, posted on April 4, 2008 at 09:34:29
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I have been following this thread for a while and am facinated but yet overwhelmed by the complexity of the stuff you are doing here. Don't tell me it's simple, it's not. You don't do yourself justice.

But here is my question. I am a newbie to audio and not young and do not have the pc skills of many who romp through these parts. I have learned a little about pc-audio but certainly not enough to take on this project. But what can I do with my current pc (I can't afford to buy a dedicated to audio pc)to get some of the benefits of the Memory Player? I understand to not run any apps when ripping or playing through j river but what else can I do to lower my pc power usage w/o giving up too much (still need to webb surf and email plus upload my grand kid pics)?

Appreciate any help, direction you could provide.

 

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