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cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player

198.54.202.234
Posted on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
cMP


The open source high-end Memory Player


December 2007


Music delivery is perfected. cMP (cics Memory Player) delivers memory playback (without RAMDisk or other utilities) thereby eliminating disk interference during playback. cMP builds handsomely on “The Art of Building (AOB) Computer Transports” version 0.3 where sound is improved (together with more convenience) and costs maintained (~$1500 with case). The case is entirely optional (given its high cost) as any suitable alternative will do thus reducing costs to ~$1200.

AOB Computer Transports version 0.3 is a significant step forward. The challenge in going beyond this is creating version 1.0 which is renamed to cMP. cMP is an open source high-end Memory Player.

In creating cMP, its critical objective was the implementation of fundamental designs that:

  1. Remove disk traffic interference during playback without having the inconvenience of manually loading files into a virtual RAM drive, etc..
  2. Ensure time critical sample delivery to the external DAC. Streaming of samples from precision upsampled (to 24/96) sound buffers to the soundcard must be fast, lean and mean! There’s no room for any bottlenecks or overheads here, otherwise we risk increasing jitter and compromise ‘Bit Transparency’.
  3. Provide better power supply and remove the need for a ferrite core on the mouse connection.
  4. Provide flexibility to choose any player (Foobar2000, Winamp …).
  5. Further minimize the Windows footprint to that more optimal than XP’s Embedded SP2 operating system as used in large scale commercial applications. This provides the foundation for the 2nd design goal.
  6. Offer a CD/DVD-ROM drive without impacting sound quality.
  7. Offer proper remote usability as locating that mouse cursor from a distance is cumbersome.
  8. Contain costs but also allow for a complete elegant one box solution.


Such designs in theory should render a stunning sonic experience. Its implementation however was a massive challenge. Did this theory meet the sonic expectations? Yes as evidenced in cMP’s bit perfect performance and ultra low jitter.

How does it sound? The most descriptive word that comes to mind is emotional. cMP’s sonic purity is truly profound. It grips those musical lines across any genre with remarkable precision. Soundstage improves, there’s better layering and even more ambient information. Bass is tighter, with natural vocals & instruments…

FRONT





BACK





More pictures and screenshots are available from the cMP documentation link provided below.

FEEDBACK

Pre-release testing by music lovers located all over the world yielded further insight and perfection of cMP.

  • A music lover based in the US with limited or no computer training:

    This has been a great way to learn about computers in addition to making something very useful for enjoying music.
    …
    Compared to my ###### (read expensive high-end traditional CD transport), even with some tweaking and learning left to do, this sounds much better. Dynamic, yet relaxed (effortless?).
    …
    I started listening last night at 7:00 and had to force myself to go to bed at twelve. Amazing spaciousness. It is truly getting close to GREAT analog and is much better than average analog already. It is simply amazing.

    I found your instructions easy to follow ONCE I understood what I was being told to do. To repeat, I have never done anything like this before, so your instructions were clear without resorting to "hand holding". I think the process was easier than you warned. I kept saying to myself, "that wasn't so bad!"

    …After cMP:

    My only audio friends are very analogue-centric. Sometime in January I am going to have them over to audition the cMP. I think they are going to be amazed. Of course, I am confident that JULI@ is going to be the icing on the cake. If this takes the whole thing another step closer I think they will be grateful that one can enjoy listening to CD's as much as LP's. Of course, in many ways your approach does things even LP's cannot do. It is becoming a toss-up, but the best kind; one can enjoy either one equally well!

  • A music lover based in Europe with more than 2000 CDs:

    …the quality of sound reproduction is quite amazing. My motivation for building was that I am not wealthy and could never dream of, let alone buy, a high-end CD player. Even this project was considerably more than I could properly afford and I began it with some trepidation. But it's been well worth it.

    …After cMP:

    I spent several hours last night testing the latest cMP. I did several A/B runs with cMP on the one hand and Foobar launched via old batch files and reading direct from disk on the other. There is no doubt in my mind that the sound using cMP is a significant improvement even with my modest setup.
    …
    The quality is quite stunning, significantly better than previous. (My partner agrees with this - she's no audio junkie but she is an informed music lover.)

  • A music lover based in Australia:

    I have been wanting to relay to you my own experience with your methods and give you some feedback . So far, I have found your approach produces very good results so I must convey to you my thanks and appreciation. At some point soon I will formalise my thoughts and send them to you or post them. I believe what you have done has become an excellent resource/asset to people interested in PC Audio.



FEATURES

  1. Disk traffic interference during playback is eliminated. Advanced RAM playback is based on system’s available physical RAM (as reported by Task Manager or Process Explorer). This means up to 4GB (XP’s limit) can be used allowing for 24/192 RAM playback. Recommendation is to use 1GB RAM (which yields available physical RAM of ~830MB - enough for any CD at 16/44.1). cMP achieves memory playback via the system cache and not through a simulated virtual drive. This approach removes Windows disk I/O overheads (irrespective of whether disk is physical or virtual) hence, it’s more optimal.

  2. Extensive Windows & Player (Foobar2000 or other) optimizations yielding much lower jitter and bit perfect delivery. System level optimizations are done at runtime (which cannot be achieved using .bat files and utilities like Process Explorer). cMP is designed to work with 32 CPU cores! (For now two is enough but, with quad cores becoming available, there’s an opportunity for highly accurate upsampling being done by player’s upsampler component).

  3. Open architecture. cMP allows for any player to be used: Foobar2000, XXHighEnd, Winamp… player just needs to handle .cue files like foobar2000 (otherwise play entire .wav). Any ripper software can be used (as long as it conforms to .cue single file standard – like those created by EAC). Additional flexibility is provided, for example use cMP to drive your HTPC playing any movie from any genre… (a .cue file for each .iso file is needed).

  4. All .cue files are processed by cMP which means the player focuses only on playing the CD. In Foobar2000, the album list control component is not needed. In ‘techno speak’ this is called separation of concerns.

  5. Power delivery to the mobo is improved by further reducing interference. The need for a ferrite core is removed.

  6. Full function remote control using a wireless mouse is achieved. Your entire library can be navigated: play any CD, eject it, jump to any track or change volume. This is achieved using just ONE mouse button: the Wheel! Use the mouse as a normal one (left-click) or hold it in your hand (like a remote control) and wheel away using your thumb. Of course other buttons are used for more convenience. There’s no need to find that tiny mouse cursor and left click! (You can still do this if needed).

  7. Your entire library that you so diligently ripped is fully compatible with cMP. No proprietary / lock-in stuff here which forces you to re-rip. Just point cMP to your music folders containing .cue and .wav files (or flac or other). cMP supports any content file as long as cue files are defined for them. For flac content files, the known EAC bug of adding an additional ‘.flac’ suffix to the content file’s name must be removed (otherwise your cue’s content file directive will not be found).

  8. CD/DVD-ROM drive is implemented without compromising playback quality. For the purist, this can be unplugged without opening computer or rebooting.


Bottom line: cMP is a (one box) highly advanced memory player that’s easy to setup and use. cMP’s core strength lies in newly developed operating system software components (built in c/c++) that uses XP SP 2 as a foundation. Windows Explorer is done away with while cMP takes over and more. Bit perfect delivery is achieved yielding an ultra high resolution of more than 23.5 bits (a limitation in measuring instruments prevents measuring cMP’s perfect resolution). DAC’s have yet to achieve this resolution (as a minimum of 141db SNR is needed)! For cMP’s bit perfect measurements, see (Bit Perfect Measurement & Analysis ).


GETTING STARTED

The cMP Installation Guide & User Manual is the starting point which can be found at (cMP Documentation ). It builds upon version 0.3 which you will also need, see (AOB Computer Transports version 0.3 ). There’s no need to look at previous AudioAsylum.com posts as all necessary items have been incorporated into the cMP Installation Guide! cMP’s most critical ingredient, namely, its operating system software can be downloaded from SourceForge: (cMP Software Installer (820KB) ).

For best results, apply changes as described in version 0.3 and the cMP Installation Guide. Please take note of Installation Guide’s exclusions / changes on page 6 (for version 0.3 paper). Based on setup shown here, sonic improvements are equally significant. Setup includes: Coolermaster Real Power M700W PSU, 2x512MB Kingston HyperX DDR2 RAM, ESI’s Juli@ soundcard (using its latest unified beta software drivers & the Analog PCB removed) and Zalman HD160XT case. cMP settings have Suspend svchost to Yes and Optimize to Critical.

Ensuring clean AC power delivery to equipment is very important. For DAC, pre-amp and amplifiers, use a dedicated AC circuit. For source equipment, use another AC circuit – this is where cMP’s main PSU should be powered from. Use another less important AC circuit for powering cMP’s 2nd ‘dirty’ power inlet. Use of quality power cords and line conditioners is recommended.


Special thanks to those that provided such brilliant feedback and suggestions during pre-release testing. cMP’s software is at version 1.0b as more feedback is desired. Your input, insights, criticisms, experiences and suggestions all help.

Thank you.

PS - this is a re-post as the original has disappeared. Kindly re-post here.
AHK script used in cMP (cicsRemote.exe), posted on November 20, 2009 at 10:09:12
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 cMP's Remote control is explained here. Script below is used in all cMP versions. For further development you'll need to install AHK.

How do you plan to turn display On/Off?


; cMP version 1.0b
; cicsRemote.ahk

#NoTrayIcon
#SingleInstance Force
#HotkeyInterval 2000
#MaxHotkeysPerInterval 200

;Stop
XButton1::
send `;
return

;Stop&Exit OR Default View
XButton2::
send !{f4}
return

;Stop&Exit OR Default View
MButton & LButton::
send !{f4}
return

;Next
RButton::
send ]
return

;Previous OR Navigation Back
MButton & RButton::
send [
return

;Volume up
MButton & WheelUp::
send +{Home}
return

;Volume down
MButton & WheelDown::
send +{End}
return

;Navigation Up
WheelUp::
send {Up}
return

;Navigation Down
WheelDown::
send {Down}
return

;Navigation Forward OR Select Item (OK) OR Stop&Exit (on double-click)
MButton::
if (A_PriorHotkey <> "MButton" or A_TimeSincePriorHotkey > 400)
{
;Too much time between presses, so this isn't a double-press.
KeyWait, MButton
send {enter}
return
}
;MsgBox Double-pressed the Middle Mouse button.
send !{f4}
return

; compile and run script.
Revised AHK script for use in CMP Mode allowing for Display Off when pressing mouse button 2, posted on November 21, 2009 at 02:54:18
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 This works with cMP allowing for display to be turned off by pressing mouse button 2. I prefer using a mouse button as this allows for no keyboard. Display turns On by moving mouse or pressing keyboard.

Interesting approach to removing display overhead during playback - any sound improvements?


; cMP version 1.2
; cicsRemote.ahk 1.0b2

#NoTrayIcon
#SingleInstance Force
#HotkeyInterval 2000
#MaxHotkeysPerInterval 200

;Phase 0/180
XButton1::
send `;
return

;Display Off
XButton2::
KeyWait, XButton2
SendMessage, 0x112, 0xF170, 2,, A
return

;Stop&Exit OR Default View
MButton & LButton::
send !{f4}
return

;Next
RButton::
send ]
return

;Previous OR Navigation Back
MButton & RButton::
send [
return

;Volume up
MButton & WheelUp::
send +{Home}
return

;Volume down
MButton & WheelDown::
send +{End}
return

;Navigation Up
WheelUp::
send {Up}
return

;Navigation Down
WheelDown::
send {Down}
return

;Navigation Forward OR Select Item (OK)
MButton::
KeyWait, MButton
send {enter}
return

; compile and run script.


Save as cicsRemote.ahk and compile. Then copy new cicsRemote.exe to c:\program files\cics Memory Player. When using cMP, "Program Manager" doesn't exist (explorer), instead use "A" (i.e. send to active window).

RE: Revised AHK script for use in CMP Mode allowing for Display Off when pressing mouse button 2, posted on November 21, 2009 at 11:26:47
etiennelemay@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 37
Joined: June 25, 2008
 Thanks for the script!
But whats the difference between
XButton2 for Screen Off
and
RButton for next song?

Whenever I press my right mouse button, I get the next song playing.
How do I activate the XButton2 instead of the RButton?
My mouse has only a Left-Wheel-Right buttons.

Thanks
Full function remote using just 3 button mouse, posted on November 21, 2009 at 22:08:48
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Revised version above requires a 5 button mouse (XButton1/2 go beyond L/R/Wheel).

I've removed Previous / Next navigation (as this can be achieved using the wheel). In its place are Phase 0/180 and Display Off. Script:

; cMP version 1.2
; cicsRemote.ahk 1.0b3: full functionality using 3-button mouse

#NoTrayIcon
#SingleInstance Force
#HotkeyInterval 2000
#MaxHotkeysPerInterval 200

;Phase 0/180
RButton::
send `;
return

;Display Off
MButton & RButton::
KeyWait, RButton
KeyWait, MButton
SendMessage, 0x112, 0xF170, 2,, A
return

;Stop&Exit OR Default View
MButton & LButton::
send !{f4}
return

;Volume up
MButton & WheelUp::
send +{Home}
return

;Volume down
MButton & WheelDown::
send +{End}
return

;Navigation Up
WheelUp::
send {Up}
return

;Navigation Down
WheelDown::
send {Down}
return

;Navigation Forward OR Select Item (OK)
MButton::
KeyWait, MButton
send {enter}
return

; compile and run script.


Here's a summary of the new remote control functions:



To compile script:
  1. Download AHK and install on your home PC
  2. Save (using notepad) above script as "cicsRemote.ahk"
  3. Right-click "cicsRemote.ahk" and select Compile (or Start > All Programs > AutoHotKey > Convert .ahk to .exe > Select "cicsRemote.ahk" > Convert)
  4. Copy "cicsRemote.exe" to cMP² (c:\program files\cics Memory Player)
  5. Be careful not to run "cicsRemote" as your mouse functions will be changed. To remove it, you must kill "cicsRemote.exe" or "AutoHotKey.exe" from Task Manager.
Thanks for the 3-button version, posted on November 22, 2009 at 09:29:37
etiennelemay@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 37
Joined: June 25, 2008
 The command: SendMessage, 0x112, 0xF170, 2,, A
doesn't do the trick for shutting off my display though.

Thanks

Etienne

Display Off tested on 2 machines BUT they have VGA drivers - need to look into it. Thx. nt, posted on November 23, 2009 at 07:15:53
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 .

P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 03:37:54
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi all,

Reports on which Voltage rail of th eP24 connector draws how much current, where confusing to me. Ryelands suggests that it ‘is essentially a 12-volt device’ but Bertel reports that the 5 Volt rail is ‘the real powerhouse’. So I decided do some measurements myself on which voltage on the P24 connector draws how much current. I post the results of the measurements because they may be of interest or useful for others.

* How the measurements were done.
I toke an P24 extension cable and combined all the:
- orange 3,3 Volt wires on pin: 1, 2, 12, 13.
- red 5 Volt wires on pin: 4, 6, 21, 22, 23.
- yellow 12 Volt wires on pin: 10, 11.
See pictures.
P24 current measurements

I measured a PC setup as per cMP2 hard- and software recommendations. Measurement sessions were done when this PC was running:
- as a standard PC (BIOS with optimized defaults loaded and standard version of XP home running
- and with BIOS and Software optimizations as per cMP2 recommendations
(core speed: 840 Mhz, Mulitiplier: x 6,0: Bus speed: 140 MHz, FSB: 560 Mhz, Memory 1 GB RAM HyperX.


* Results current measurements in Amps
PC running BIOS with Optimized Defaults + Standard XP Home:
-> 12 Volt
BIOS starts system: 0,12
XP booting: 0,12
System running: 0,12
Playing music: 0,12

-> 5 Volt
BIOS starts system: 3,10 (peak: 3,80)
XP booting: 3,37 (peak: 3,57)
System running: 3,30 (peak: 3,30)
Playing music: 3,38 (peak: 3,40)

-> 3,3 Volt
BIOS starts system: 0,30
XP booting: 0,30
System running: 0,30
Playing music: 0,30


PC running in cMP optimized mode:
-> 12 Volt
BIOS starts system: 0,08
XP booting: 0,08
System running: 0,08
Playing music: 0,08

-> 5 Volt
BIOS starts system: 2,90 (peak: 3,50)
XP booting: 2,96 (peak: 3,55)
System running: 3,06 (peak: 3,09)
Playing music: 3,13 (peak: 3,14)

-> 3,3 Volt
BIOS starts system: 0,27
XP booting: 0,27
System running: 0,27
Playing music: 0,27

So the 5 Volt line is indeed ‘the powerhouse’.

With the 5 Volt rail being ‘the powerhouse’ it is somewhat confusing to me, that only optimizing the 12 volt on the P24(with a linear PSU through a specific picoPSU which leaves the 12 volt line untouched) still gives such a worthwhile Sound Quality improvement. (A picoPSU that also regulates the 12 volt line, gives hardly any sound quality improvement over using the standard Earth Watts 430 ATX PSU.)

So still much food for thought. Could it be that this way "PS modulation" & ground effects are largely removed and no longer negatively impact the critical audio chain via P24 as Cics suggests. And what about the big impact on sound quality using low resistance wires between linear PSU and P4 P24 (almost as big as going from ATX PSU to linear PSU). Why do SSD drives sound better than HDD-drives? Do HDD ‘pollute’ the 5Volt environment on the MoBo through the S-ATA connection? Why does the Sound Quality improves when TheoB grounds/earths his PC-case?

fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 05:01:53
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Hi Mark,

appreciate the effort, well done!

I can confirm the values you have come up with, my measurements that I repeat quite regularly (last time was only a few days ago) are in the same ballpark - with one exception: my 5V rail draws only 2.47A while playing in optimized cMP mode. Don't know why the difference, my BIOS settings are identical to yours, the only difference in setup being that I use a 256MB ValuRam stick instead of 1GB, but that certainly does not account for that. Different settings in cMP/cPlay, or Lynx driver...? I do 24/192 with SRC 145 to Juli@, buffers 48 and Tiny.

And IMHO you're very right: just optimizing the 12v rail of P24 is good but leaves you ending up halfway at best, the main powerline in case of e.g. a pico still being provided by a switcher, albeit a quite good one. Supplying clean and properly regulated 12v to pico certainly improves and cleans up its working environment, but there's still room for improvement by separately powering the other lines.

Regards,
Robert

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 06:55:44
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Robert,

I checked ALL bios settings carefully. :-( The LAN was still enabled in the BIOS. After I disabled the LAN, playing music still needs 3,00 Amps. So only 0,14 less. No way close to your 2.47 amps.

I also use SRC 145, buffers 48 and also Tiny. But 24/96 because my Lavry Black DA10 can’t go higher than 96. (Dan Lavry wrote a paper somewhere, where he points out that going higher than 96 for playback has no point. Only for recording 24/192 would make sense because of the involved mixing / mastering process thereafter). And I must confess: It’s really, really difficult to hear some difference between 44.1 and 96.

While I was at it, I was curious to know how much extra Amps are needed for other settings.
I use: DDR2 = 2.0 Volt / FSB = + 0,2 Volt, while cMP2 recommends: DDR2 = 1.8 Volt / FSB = – 0,15V . My overvoltage settings need an extra 0,25 amps on the 5 Volt rail. Much more than I expected.

I still puzzles me why an improvement of ‘a lesser important’ (??) 12V line on the P24 still has that nice impact on sound quality. But I’m even more puzzles and heavily surprised by the BIG (!) impact low resistance wires had on sound quality.

Right now I try to figger out what the best strategy would be for improving the 5 Volt in order to get to me too the next level of Sound Quality. I have done yet al the quick and easy improvements which (hardly) need any soldering skills and no knowledge about electronics.
- PSU improvements part 1 = linear PSU on P4.
- PSU improvements part 2 = linear PSU on 12V on P24 (with help of a specific picoPSU model used).
- PSU improvements part 2.5 = low resistance wire between P4 and picoPSU at P24.(requires only some soldering kills)

Now I’m still thinking on how I can do ‘PSU improvements part 3’ (improvement of the 5 Volt supply) with most effect on Sound Quality, but with only some basic soldering skills and almost no knowledge of electronics present.

As always: many thankx for your thoughts, ideas, input and feedback.

Mark

fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 09:52:08
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Thanks for sharing those useful measures.

PC running in cMP optimized mode:
-> 12 Volt
BIOS starts system: 0,08
XP booting: 0,08
System running: 0,08
Playing music: 0,08

-> 5 Volt
BIOS starts system: 2,90 (peak: 3,50)
XP booting: 2,96 (peak: 3,55)
System running: 3,06 (peak: 3,09)
Playing music: 3,13 (peak: 3,14)

-> 3,3 Volt
BIOS starts system: 0,27
XP booting: 0,27
System running: 0,27
Playing music: 0,27

5V line@music would be 2.74 (3.13-0.14-0.25).

Power consumption on P24 would then be 15.6 watts (Robert's yields a lower 13.8 watts).

Have you looked at measures when changing RAM timings, e.g. using 3-2-2-5/6 with 256MB RAM? Would be interesting.
results extra current measurements 5 Volt rail of P24 connector, posted on November 19, 2009 at 12:15:27
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Cics,

Too eliminated possible PSU setup and connection errors, I re-reconnected the Earth Watts 430 ATX PSU to both the P4 and the P24. So the Earth Watts is the only PSU that is powering everything (as in an of the shelf standard PC situation) while the measurements where done.

* System
MoBo: GA - G31M - E S2L, Processor: 7300, soundcard: Lynx AES16 pci (Synchro lock disabled)
* settings:
- Software, kernel, registry, service, graphics, etc, ect and BIOS, as per cMP recommendations.
- MB Intelligent Tweaker (M.I.T.) settings:
core speed: 840 Mhz, Mulitiplier: x 6,0: Bus speed: 140 MHz, FSB: 560 Mhz
- cMP / cPlay 32: output: 96K, Buffer: tinny, SCR 145 db, lynx ASIO buffer: 32
- graphics: 8 bit (600 x 800)
- RAM: 512 MB HyperX RAM

I turned my system inside out, but I couldn’t find anything other than a few hidden EMU devices that where in ‘the hidden section’ in the Device Manager. With these settings the lowest possible current on the P24 5 Volt rail in my setup, when XP home is at rest = 2, 79 Amps. (So still not close to Bertels 2,47 Amps). I couldn’t re-run ‘autoruns.exe’ because this doesn’t work when ‘min logon’ finally is installed.

-> Results current measurements on the 5 volt rail on the P24 (in Amps)

* 512 MB RAM HyperX
- Timings in BIOS set to ‘auto’, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-7
XP at rest: 2,80
Playing music: 2,87/88

- Timings in BIOS manually set to: 3-3-3-5, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-5.
XP at rest: 2,79
Playing music: 2,87

- Timings in BIOS manually set to: 3-2-2-5, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-5 (!!!).
XP at rest: 2,79
Playing music: 2,87


* 2 x 512 MB RAM HyperX (interleaved mode)
- Timings in BIOS set to ‘auto’, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-7
XP at rest: 2,97
Playing music: 3,05

- Timings in BIOS manually set to: 3-3-3-5, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-5.
XP at rest: 2,98
Playing music: 3,06/05

- Timings in BIOS manually set to: 3-2-2-5, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-5 (!!!).
XP at rest: 2,97
Playing music: 3,05/06


* 1GB RAM HyperX
- Timings in BIOS set to ‘auto’, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-7
XP at rest: 2,85
Playing music: 2,93

- Timings in BIOS manually set to: 3-3-3-5, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-5.
XP at rest: 2,85
Playing music: 2,93

- Timings in BIOS manually set to: 3-2-2-5, CPUZ reports: 3-3-3-5 (!!!).
XP at rest: 2,86/85
Playing music: 2,93

* what timings can be achieved with ‘auto’-setting in BIOS.
When using the Earth Watts PSU it is not possible to boot at any lower busspeed than 140 mHz. But when using a linear PSU on the P4 and on the picoPSU-150-XT at the P24, then it is possible to (cold) boot at a busspeed of 130 MHz and warm boot at a busspeed of 125 Mhz.

With bus speeds at 130 Mhz or 125 Mhz and timings in BIOS set to ‘auto’, CPUZ than reports: 3-3-3-6. With BIOS timings set to ‘auto’ is was not possible to reach 3-3-3-5.

* difference between timings set ‘manually’ and readings in CPUZ.
When timings were manually set to 3-2-2-5 in BIOS, CPUZ still reports 3-3-3-5. I have no explanation for this. When again checking the BIOS setup screen: 3-2-2-5 was still activated.

fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
RE: results extra current measurements 5 Volt rail of P24 connector, posted on November 19, 2009 at 12:50:18
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Mark,

impressive measurements, I appriciate that!

Now I have had to make the same expperience - when setting 3-3-3-5 on 256 ValueRam, CPU-Z reported 3-3-3-9 always...

2x512MB HyperX set to 3-3-3-5 results in 2.06A? an impressive value - unfortunately it's interleaved and with two banks creating electrical activity and interference... Well your still not there, your system is circling around 2.9A. What do you have as devoltage values?

Wow, you were able to boot up at 130 and even 125 MHz??? I've got to try that and play with that a bit, that's impressive!

Best,
Robert

grr a typo. 2,06/05 Amps must be:3,06/05 Amps, posted on November 19, 2009 at 13:40:13
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Thankx for your response. unfortunately it’s a typo. 2,06/05 must be: 3,06/05.

Yes my system is still circling around 2,9 amps on the 5 volt rail at the P24 connector
I went to great lengths in controlling and checking if everything and all value’s were set like the recommendations as described in http://cplay.sourceforge.net/. FSB de-voltage is at – 0,15 V (as recommended).

Since I use linear PSU’s to power the picoPSU-150-XT at the P24 and the P4, I discovered that it’s possible to cold boot at 130 Mhz busspeed and warm boot at 125 Mhz busspeed. However 130 Mhz is to slow for upsampling. Booting at 125 MHz into a normal XP installation is impossible. You than will crash into a BSOD. At 125 MHZ you can only boot into an XP installation that is 100% optimized as per cMP recommendations.

fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
Very useful RAM measurements indeed, posted on November 20, 2009 at 02:16:12
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Thanks Mark.

Using a single RAM module with smallest capacity offers lowest power consumption. Faster timings for 512RAM have ~5mA impact (on the lower consumption side: 2,87/88 vs 2.87 continuous). I certainly wasn't expecting this and would've been happy to go with same current. From a theoretical viewpoint, faster timings without any penalties, could potentially lower jitter. This is how I see it: if data streamed to soundcard happens slightly faster then we have less interference to its XO. I'll do some tests at 3-2-2-5/6 (I prefer keeping settings for a few days at a time). Big assumption here is both 12V and 3.3V lines remain unchanged - did you confirm this?

Reason for your higher 5V consumption over Robert's is the Lynx. It's more complicated, uses different chips and offers more channels than Juli@.

2,87/88 versus 2,87. I only used a simple the multi-meter, posted on November 20, 2009 at 03:40:04
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Cics,

Thank you for your feedback.

2,87/88 versus 2,87.
Is it really relevant with the multimeter I used? It is not a professional one.
It's a Velleman multimeter DVM68 of 30 euro's for home/hobby use.
I don't know anything about it's stability, hysteresis and bias.
About accuracy the manual reports: basic DC current accuracy: ±1.2% (±2.0% for 10A range)

I wil re-do the measurements with 512 RAM HyperX at different timings again, but than also measure the current on the 12V and 3,3 V.

For what it’s worth:
Yesterday for measurement reason’s, I powered the cMP PC setup only with the Earth Watts 430 ATX PSU. It struck me somewhat that the sound quality wasn’t that much less, than I had expected it to be, from what I could remember when using the Juli@ with different PSU types. It sounded somewhat ‘digital’ again: ‘grainy’, ‘sandy’ and ‘the digital highs’ where back. But still, I’m under the impression that the Juli@ is more sensitive for swapping from an ATX PSU to a linear PSU, than the Lynx AES16 is.
I can’t check this back anymore because I sold my Juli@ one month a go. But from what I can remember: the positive effect on sound quality when using a linear PSU with the juli@ appears to be bigger, than when using the Lynx AES16. Or said the other way round: the Lynx AES16 seems less sensitive for type of PSU used.

fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
RE: 2,87/88 versus 2,87. I only used a simple the multi-meter, posted on November 20, 2009 at 10:18:40
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Earthwatts: You would get more improvement if using main ATX for P24 only. Your other ATX would power P4.

On 5V measurements, we can conclude that RAM timings does not adversely affect power consumption (no more than 35mA).

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 19, 2009 at 06:21:56
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Do I understand correctly that 3 2 2 5/6 are feasible and possibly sonically desirable with the stock cmp^2 setup?

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 19, 2009 at 13:48:55
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Theo,

Yes in my setup is possible to manually set 3-2-2-5.

But do I hear a sound quality improvement ? I’m not sure if I hear any.

Mark

fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 06:30:40
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 thanks Mark

I gladly do some extra measurements, posted on November 18, 2009 at 11:25:01
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Cics,

I would gladly to do some extra measurements. Since I now have a special modified P24 extension cable ready for that, it’s no big deal to swap in and out place between the picoPSU.

But before I do some extra measurements, I first want to trace down how it is possible that my current measurements differ so much ( 2,47 A <-> 3.0 A) from those that Bertel did.
I don’t think my multi-meter is bad or broke. So I first want to check al settings in the BIOS (which I already did) and check the numerous XP tweaks and suggested XP fine tuning. Give me a day or two.

I only have a 2x 512 MB RAM HyperX and 2x 1 GB HyperX DDR2 memory modules at hand. But I will do some comparison measurements with those modules on suggested RAM timings.

Measurements done, where taken at 3-3-3-5 RAM timings (manual set) with 512 Mb HyperX DRR2 RAM

I will get back to you on this soon.

Mark

fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 07:13:55
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Mark,

yes right, I forgot your overvoltage settings that I had read about in your recent thread. Amazing that this results in such a substantial increase in power consumption on the 5v rail.

Well, on your 'PSU improvements part 3': Now that you have optimized your pico already, I'm afraid there's nothing much you can do to optimize 5v when leaving the pico in place, at least I don't see it. The next step IMHO really would always have to involve taking out the pico and supplying three separate voltage rails externally (linear, battery, in whatever configuration). And unless you use some module to do the timing and ramp up stuff to power up right (provided there is one which I belive is the case, I just haven't managed to track it down) this has to involve switching over from ATX to linear or similar after booting. I would not consider it too complicated, there's info and documents how to do this, but it surely involves soldering and a bit of electronic knowledge, and some courage ;-) You see there's a reason why almost nobody (at least as far as I can see, I'd love to be corrected) has taken that step to surpass pico and power P24 rails independently...

I can't think of any more useful or encouraging news, maybe others can look at it from different angles and come up with a promising way that I haven't seen?

Best,
Robert

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 07:47:59
gene_
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Location: South London
Joined: November 22, 2009
 Hi averyone,
This is my firs post and english is my not first language.
I build CMP^2 with external linear PSU ( four Power one/ Condor units ).
Inside computer - one 3.3v battery for July@ and two battery 3.3v for MOBO, one battery -9v ( insted -12v, work fine) for start only.
I also use Audio grade caps for all linear and five Mundorf Tube cap 47mf on top of linear / battery. Small by pass cap .01 mf as well.
For wiring - 0.3mm Silver plated cupper. All ideas from this forum, you know.
Great thanks Cics and all followers.
Bertel,
this is my approach maybe will be usefull to you.
I do powering up manualy - first I swich all power on , then push start button on computer then Power Good swich . I do swich off -12v after all.
Most inportant , I think, I can restart computer by wireless mouse not touching any switches .( -12v still off)
About timing , by the book , Power Good singal sould be delayed on 0.5 second . I can't find nothing, about what should be powered first, so I swich on HDD and then rest.
I use B31 , in my set up after about 30 hours break-in B32 was not so resolving as B31.
Best, Gene.
Thank you for demystifying the ATX start-up process. Would a relay also work?, posted on November 23, 2009 at 14:05:42
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Gene_,

Thank you for demystifying the ATX start-up process and for sharing on the Audio Asylum forum. You showed the way to a full linear cMP2 power supply !! Thanx you very much.

I have a question about timing the PWR-OK signal and a question about using a relay to switch the PWR-OK signal.

-> Question about timing the PWR_OK signal

The ATX formfactor says:
- the timing has to be: PWR_OK delay 100 ms <- Timing <- 500 ms.

The +5V Power_Okay signal should be switched to pin 8 within 500 milliseconds. How do you do that by hand?

Or…… is it not so critical after all? And can it also be done by hand? Even after 1, 2 or 3 seconds?


-> Switching PWR-OK with help of a relay?
I was thinking of switching the +5V PWR_OK signal to pin 8 (grey wire) with the help of a relay (with some time delay).
This relay acts on pin 14 (green wire)the PWR-UP signal.

- Idea.

* First: normal ATX PSU start-up proceeding
You power pin 9 (purple wire) with +5 volt because the Power Control Circuit (PCC) on the MoBo reacts on pushing the start-up button.

When the PCC is active (+5 volt on pin 9) and the start-up button is pressed, the PCC than will drop the power on pin 14 (green). No power on pin 14 (green wire) signals the ATX PSU to power up.

When the ATX PSU has it’s power up, the ATX PSU than gives +5 volt to pin 8 (Grey wire). With +5V on pin 8, the PCC now starts the processor.


* Giving PWR-OK signal when using all linear PSU’s

Switch on 3.3, 5 and 12 volt to P24.
Which also powers pin 9 (purple wire) with +5v (standby function). This way the Power Control Circuit (PCC) of the MoBo is active and thus also pin 14 (green wire) gets +5Volt from the PCC.

When PCC is active and the start-up button is pushed, the +5V on pin 14 (green wire) is dropped by the PCC. This causes the relay to switch +5V to pin 8 (grey wire) as PWR_OK signal to the PCC.

With PWR-OK signal on pin 8 (+5V on grey wire) the PCC allows processor to start working.

Since the 3.3, 5 and 12 Volt is already switched on as being the first step, the processor will have no problem starting.

I was brought to this idea because some websites also say:
"Some extremely el-cheapo power supplies may "fake" the Power Good signal by just tying it to another +5 V line. Such a system essentially has no Power Good functionality and will cause the motherboard to try to start the system before the power has fully stabilized.”
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/funcPowerGood-c.html


Do you (or any other inmates) think this could work?

fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 08:36:57
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Hi Gene,

many thanks for your post, and welcome to the Asylum! :-)

This is very interesting! So do I understand you correctly, you ARE able to power up the computer manually without ATX power supply? So you switch on P4 rail, power for Juli@, and 3.3V, 5V and 12V, then you push the computer's start button, and then you switch on PowerGood - and the computer boots up? Is that how you do it and that works?

I don't think though that you need -12V at all, I never had connected it in my setups.

Thank you,
Robert

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 13:49:48
gene_
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Location: South London
Joined: November 22, 2009



Hi Robert,
As you can see from picture there is no any ATX PSU in a MP^2 ,
and I do power up my MP^2 one month with only one error
( battery -9v was dead , I put exstra swich for disconecting)
My linear external PSU has two AC switches, one for HDD supply and another for the rest three +12, +12, +5v.
Battery , Pawer Good and Charger switches all placed on front of MP^2.
Best, Gene.

This is a great breakthrough. Congratulations! Some questions..., posted on November 23, 2009 at 01:19:28
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
  1. Can you power CPU (P4) using the "dirty" PS? You should get an improvement.

  2. Do you have a circuit diagram with powering sequence for P24?
RE: This is a great breakthrough. Congratulations! Some questions..., posted on November 23, 2009 at 14:27:15
gene_
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Location: South London
Joined: November 22, 2009
 Hi Cics,
many Thanks for Great Project. I never listen CD before, tryed a lot.

1.I use 4 linear PSU : +12v (3A) for CPU, (+4700mf cap, +47mf Tube cap)

+12v (3A) for MOBO,(+ 4700mf cap, +47mf Tube cap)

+5v (6A) for MOBO,(+9400mf cap, +47mf Tube cap )

+5V (3A) for HDD.( also as a charger for 3.3v)

Use 1 battery +3.3v for July@ ( + 47mf Tube Cap)

3 battery +3.3v for MOBO (+ 47mf Tube Cap)

1 battery -9v for MOBO

so as you see , all separate.

2. I do swich first -9v, HDD, then by one swich all three linear then 3.3v for MOBO and 3.3v for JUly@ - last one Power Good.

I can restart computer from my sofa.
Best Gene.
RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 09:48:11
gene_
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Location: South London
Joined: November 22, 2009



Hi Robert, thanks for welcome
I do need -12v, if I forgot swiching on -12v , HDD light not flasning
computer never boot.
It is not very complicated rewire computer, it is just look scary .
I use this set up about one month , for MOBO 3.3v- I use three battery
not two as I said in last post .
Will try send a picture PSU and Computer.
Best, Gene.
RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 09:45:15
gene_
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Location: South London
Joined: November 22, 2009



Hi Robert, thanks for welcome
I do need -12v, if I forgot swiching on -12v , HDD light not flasning
computer never boot.
It is not very complicated rewire computer, it is just look scary .
I use this set up about one month , for MOBO 3.3v- I use three battery
not two as I said in last post .
Will try send a picture PSU and Computer.
Best, Gene.
RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 22, 2009 at 14:17:03
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Hi Greg,

yes, you're right, I remember the -12v rail needs to be present at the time the computer startup process is started by pushing the start button. Once the power up process has started it can be switched off and isn't needed anymore.

I have tried switching all the "special" lines in different timings and sequences before but hadn't succeeded. I must have overlooked something, I'll try switching PowerGood separately. That will help a lot - thank you Greg for reporting this!

Best,
Robert

RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 08:56:17
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Robert,

Looking at the possibilities to optimize the 5 Volt, I also look at ‘the consumers’ of the 5 Volt. I look at it from a balanced sink <-> source perspective and how they influence each other. ‘Sinks / consumers’ of the 5 voltage are: the MoBo and the Juli@ soundcard. So, with a ‘high quality’ 5 volt source I could supply:

1. Only the Juli@ soundcard (with PCI power supply traces cut).
(bypassing the MoBo)

2. only the Mobo.
(which than also supply’s the Juli@ soundcard when PCI power supply traces are NOT cut)

3. separately supplying the Mobo + the juli@ soundcard (with PCI power supply traces cut)

Until now option 1. supplying a Juli@ soundcard (with PCI power supply traces cut) looks much easier than option 2: the Mobo stuff with the use of switches/relays ect.

But I can only makes a good judgement between option 1 and option 2, if I also know which ‘effort needed’ yields the most Sound Quality improvement. That’s why I asked (in an other thread) if it where possible to rank the sound quality improvements. But I still can spend some time on finding out. PSU improvements Part 3 will only start somewhere in spring 2010.

Mark

N.B. with al cMP2 BIOS settings + windows XP tunning/tweaks (incl min logon) applied my MoBo (GA-G31M-ES2L) it still needs 3.0 Amp while playing music. With both over-voltages in place, it even uses a wapping 3,25 Amps. I will have another close look, because I find the difference 2,47 <-> 3.0 very big.

fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
RE: P24 current measurements., posted on November 18, 2009 at 09:21:36
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Mark,

I strongly recommend to cut (or just mask if you will) the PCI traces to Juli@, unsolder the regulator U1 (no big deal, really) and supply it externally with clean 3v3 and 5v (remember that only the analog part of Juli@ plus one or two chips consume very little current on the 5v rail, the vast majority are 3v3 consumers!) - you're isolating Juli@ from all interferences, noise etc. coming from the mobo's voltage rails plus supply good quality power in addition - little effort gives you maximum return! In terms of return on effort invested as well as in achievable sonic improvement, I'd say this is clearly priority #1! The results at least in my system (when also adjusting voltages externally supplied to exactly match those on the mobo) were in order of magnitudes above most others I had done.

Best,
Robert

Thank you for helping making the choice: option 1 it will be than, posted on November 18, 2009 at 09:51:30
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Robert,

You make things easy. Thank you for the advice. So option 1. it will be.

1. Only the Juli@ soundcard (with PCI power supply traces cut). (bypassing the MoBo)

I think it’s also the most cost effective one.

As other inmates reports very good results with battery power, I’m even prepared to take a close look at ‘battery power’. :-)

Mark

fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
* NEW * Alternative approach to CPU (P4) power supply, posted on November 15, 2009 at 04:48:08
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 CPU (P4) power supply has seen improvements through the use of a dedicated 12V linear PS or the addition of smoothing capacitors. Most found this optimisation to yield excellent resuts.

This new and simpler approach is not available on the cMP² site. More testing is needed from others. On reviewing Gigabyte's (GA-G31M-S2L) mobo manual, it describes its P4 implementation as follows:


"... The 12V power connector mainly supplies power to the CPU. If the 12V power connector is not connected, the computer will not start."


If it "mainly supplies" power to the CPU, what else then? After testing with another mobo, it seems this is limited to fans (esp CPU fan). This is great news as we can treat the CPU as another "dirty" component (for example the HDD).

Idea:

Replace Grannite Digital (GD) PS' with one "dirty" ATX PSU. That is cMP² now has 2 ATX PSUs. This "dirty" PSU powers all "dirty" peripherals as before (as was done by the GD PS') and the CPU.

Procedure:

  1. Source a 2nd ATX PSU - preferably a good low noise one (Antec Earthwatts remains a good choice). Make sure you have power a switch on the PSU.

  2. Shutdown & disconnect all power.

  3. Remove GD PS' and wiring,

  4. "Dirty" ATX PSU sits either atop or aside your cMP². All DC power cables are run through a spare rear slot (remove screw and plate).



  5. Remove current "clean" P4 connector and replace with "dirty" P4.

  6. Connect all other "dirty" components (alternate USB ports, touch screen, ROM drive, HDDs/SSDs, ...).

  7. Check that "clean" ATX power ONLY supplies P24 (mobo).

  8. On the "dirty" P24 connector, hard wire it to permanently stay on. I used the end of a metal paper clip (which makes a nice "U" pin). Pins connect green and black wires of P20/P24 connector and is thereafter insulation taped.



  9. Connect AC power to "dirty" ATX ("clean" ATX remains off). Switch on.

    You should see all your "dirty" peripherals come on. If there's no power, the ATX PSU is most likely not seeing enough load to turn on. I had to add a ROM drive to overcome this issue (ROM drive is not connected to mobo). Bad connections could be another cause for no power.

  10. Connect power to "clean" ATX and turn on. Test playback, etc..

  11. If you intend to recycle power, shutdown as normal, then turn off "dirty" ATX. For startup, ALWAYS power up "dirty" ATX first.


Results:

After a few hours of playback, there was a tangible amount of improvement - more air and richer mids. Musicality factor of cPlay 2.0b32 improves even further...
Are switchers a bit of a turn off?, posted on November 16, 2009 at 04:43:03
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 Idea: Replace Granite Digital (GD) PS' with one "dirty" ATX PSU. That is cMP² now has 2 ATX PSUs. This "dirty" PSU powers all "dirty" peripherals as before (as was done by the GD PS') and the CPU.

cics’s post confirm yet again that PCs dedicated to music replay respond well even to modest improvements in the supply and distribution of power to their components.

The topic has been discussed at length on AA with suggestions ranging from the absurdly simple (smoothing the P4 line) to the intimidatingly complex (an all-battery system with power-on sequencing and elaborate soundcard mods).

However, all but the most rudimentary of a hierarchy of designs (see www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/53957.html ) call for some competence in electronics and access to specialised tools. Many would-be users have neither.

It is a merit of the core cMP^2 design that it uses stock components and can be built by those with few constructional skills. However, although the proposed upgrade using two ATX PSUs maintains that low-skill approach (and gets switchers and mains power out of the case), it doesn’t follow that it is the best solution even for those without access to core skills.

In my opinion and with all due respect, even before plugging in a stray CD-ROM drive (or a few power resistors?) to keep switchers switching, it’s entry-level at best. In fact, it’s a bit of a kludge.

I’ll try to explain why I think that but would first like to clarify a couple of basic points.

** A 4-pin, 12-volt connector (the P4 or Pentium 4 line) was added to the ATX spec in February 2000 to power the CPU. If manufacturers now use it to power other components, they are arguably wandering off spec. Despite what it says in the manuals, I doubt that P4 powers anything on Gigabyte motherboards other than the processor and perhaps its cooling fan. As a cMP^2 system typically has no fans, it’s reasonable to assume that it powers only the CPU.

** ATX spec revisions in 2003 inter alia acknowledged that nowadays most power is required on the 12 V rails: power on 3.3 V and 5 V rails was reduced and -5 V was scrapped. As www.silentpcreview.com explained in 2005:

The high reliance of current systems on the 12V is dramatic compared to even just a couple of years ago and the evolution of the ATX12V spec reflects this change. Almost any system assembled from current components will draw the vast majority of current from 12V, in some cases, as much as 90% at load. (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page2.html )
In short, a modern motherboard is essentially a 12-volt device even if it needs power-sequencing circuitry and a couple of ancilliary lines.

(For anyone sad enough, like me, to find these arcane topics mildly interesting, Intel specs are the official source but material on Wiki and elsewhere is more readable.)

++++

1. I have difficulty with the concept of the CPU as a “dirty” device that can be powered with impunity from a noisy source. First, sound quality is widely recognised as being improved at least as much by smoothing P4 as P24, arguably more. Second, there is no evidence to hand that a polluted P4 line will not pollute the supply to other, perhaps more noise-sensitive, devices. Separate SMPSs may to an extent mask that but it does not follow that they are the optimal solution.

2. The power demand of an under-clocked, small-format motherboard with a 45nm CPU is modest – typically under 25 watts. Allowing for accidental reversion to default BIOS settings, a 3-amp, 12-volt linear supply is likely to be adequate and a 5-amp one certainly is.

There may well be SMPS designs with better noise specs than off-the-shelf linear units but not ATX ones. The experience of several builders of cMP^2 and other systems is that a half-way decent linear supply outperforms even the best ATX designs in this context.

3. A Pico-PSU designed for use with a 12-volt regulated supply (i.e. not for car batteries) uses switching only for ancilliary lines. Even without additional smoothing (à la Greg), they are reported as bettering conventional ATX units. ( See: htttp://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=47156 .)

A 12-volt “laboratory”-style PSU driving the P4 line directly and some P24 lines via a Pico PSU requires virtually no constructional skills to implement, costs much the same as two decent SMPSs and will comfortably outperform them. (Just about any 5-volt linear supply will perform as well as a Granite Digital switcher, perhaps better, for the “dirty” kit.)

Of course, one ideal would be to get a PCB laid out for John Swenson’s low RFI, low ripple design. Offers?

Just a few thoughts - sorry to go on for so long . . .

Dave
Why shouldn't we treat the CPU as a dirty device?, posted on November 18, 2009 at 09:18:05
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 If CPU power supply is isolated to just P4, using the approach suggested should be fine. So far my tests confirm this. CPU signaling to Northbridge is very important but this we control via software!

I'm suggesting an additional ATX over 1 or more GDs. It seems we don't need an expensive high powered ATX either but for an elegant in-box solution, one could try this:



Sparkle FSP300-601U would fit internally and may require less load to turn on. Note that it offers a P20 instead of a P24 connector.

I was very pleased to learn that GB mobos don't use P24 for the CPU.

Of course, using linear PSUs is the best way forward.

RE: * NEW * Alternative approach to CPU (P4) power supply, posted on November 15, 2009 at 08:56:02
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 cics,

I'm not sure if I understand your recommendation correctly...

Your quote of the MoBo manual clearly states that P4 mainly powers the CPU. Maybe a few other components as well, but it seems as if we currently don't know which and to what extent. Nevertheless, the primary consumer of the current supplied through P4 surely is the CPU. Now if we consider this "dirty" and bundle it up on one line together with HDD, USB etc., we heavily "pollute" power supplied to the CPU, don't we? That cannot really be the target for improving power supply to our cMP system IMHO...

You surely make a very valid point that we should separate PSUs for P24 and P4, so if inmates only want to use ATX supplies, a good idea indeed can be to add a second ATX PSU for P4 while the first one only powers P24 - but why not keep the Granite(s)? Greg/GStew btw has already shown that even improving on these "dirty" supplies has a positive effect on overall system performance.

Many of us already e.g. use separate linear supplies or batteries for P4 and P24 (e.g. powering a picoPSU or supplying directly to P24) and a "dirty" supply for the truly "dirty" consumers like HDD and USB etc. But I find it hard to understand that taking away more or less clean power from P4 and making it one of the "dirty" consumers could be beneficial.

Have you compared 1 x ATX PSU for P4 plus 1 x ATX PSU for P24 plus 1 (or several) x Granite(s) for "dirty" consumer(s) versus 1 x ATX PSU for "dirties" and P4 plus 1 x ATX PSU for P24 and found the latter to be superior?

Thank you,
Robert

RE: * NEW * Alternative approach to CPU (P4) power supply, posted on November 15, 2009 at 11:37:09
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Good points.

I'm looking to change our "base" design to 2 ATXs instead of 1 ATX and a few GDs. This way we reduce wiring needed and don't need any "Y" splitters. Also, we don't suffer from PS limitations (compared to GD where you must be under 2A). However, if you already use a dedicated PS for P4, this change will not be useful and should be ignored.

What triggered this design was reports on how sound improved when powering P4 separately. Are we getting improvement from better PS to CPU or is it that we have largely removed its "PS modulation" & ground effects that negatively impacts the critical audio chain (via P24)? My sense is the latter. This question grew larger with hfavandepas' 12V linear+pico implementation. Given that the pico also suffers from ATX like ripple noise, a normal ATX should do. Pico 150XT which passes linear 12V input untouched will likely be better.

My understanding of how P4 is used in the GB mobo suggests its limited to CPU and fans. There may be other components and if they were critical, sound quality would be worse. It's not.

It may seem strange that a "dirty" P4 works so well given that the CPU is tightly coupled to the audio chain. The reason is largely to do with soundcards interacting indirectly with the CPU. For audio streaming, it only sees RAM via the southbridge chipset. Another key factor is how well the CPU / Northbridge interface is significantly de-stressed. This seems to make the twin ATX package work very well.
RE: * NEW * Alternative approach to CPU (P4) power supply, posted on November 15, 2009 at 12:01:44
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 cics,

for the recommended "base" setup this is certainly good to start with, especially given your explanation on how little influence the CPU has during audio streaming (I wasn't aware of this and that the focus here is mainly on the southbridge chipset - would be great if we could improve its working environment, e.g. by adding caps to its voltage pins etc., but that's a bit tricky I suppose...).

Over the course of this year I have improved my system also hardware-wise step by step to a point where I use only batteries plus caps during playback, separate ones for P4 as well as P24 (no picoPSU or similar switching PSUs but battery power separately for every voltage rail) as well as for Juli@ and Buffalo DAC. Optimizing on P4 and P24 always brought little but pleasant improvements step by step - but I have to state very clearly that IMHO almost dramatic improvements can be achieved when further focusing on Juli@ (as we know already from the mods Alfred/sonics and Greg/Gstew made).

Powering Juli@ externally is a HUGE step as we know already for some time. There are two Juli@ versions, one only needs additional 5V for sample rates 176 and 192, the other at all SRs for clock timing. As Greg/Gstew has already pointed out cutting the PCI traces for all voltage input ensures that only the clean external voltages are present on Juli@, separating it even further from detrimental external influence.

In the past couple of days I had to learn how crucial even smallest variations are when you power Juli@ externally - it's a bit like open heart surgery, there's no more regulators and smoothing caps and different circuits having their influences, but you directly without any filters inject current in Juli@'s circuits, and parameters like voltage levels (3.25V instead of the nominal 3.33V as well as 4.85V instead of 5.00V seem to work best), output impedance of the current source, purity of power supplied etc. IMHO have a MASSIVE influence on sonics and sound quality - in my setup even small changes to these parameters had a much more noticeable and revealing influence on overall sonics than any other improvements mentioned above. I'm still in the process of testing and identifying and pinning down, as Greg/Gstew had mentioned before shunt regulators probably will be an excellent choice for powering Juli@ directly, that's next, will report as soon as I get there and have reliable and tested results :-)

Sorry for rambling, just wanted to put the relevance and effect of the various mods into the overall picture, at least as I see it ;-)

Best,
Robert

'ranking' bypassing the MoBo, posted on November 16, 2009 at 05:27:10
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Bertel,

Since you PRACTICE (!) a lot of power supply improvements to the cMP2 setup, you might be able to shed some light on to the following question.

I would like to know the degree in (potential) sound quality improvement between: supply chain 2 and supply chain 3:

- Supply chain 1: original chain.
source: 5 volt ‘high quality power’ -> P24 5Volt input connector on MoBo -> MoBo to PCI -> circuit board of soundcard -> ‘sink’ components on soundcard (who need the supplied 5V)

- Supply chain 2: MoBo is bypassed.
source: 5 volt ‘high quality power’ -> circuit board of soundcard -> ‘sink’ components on soundcard (who need the supplied 5V).

- Supply chain 3: MoBo + (parts of) circuit board of soundcard are bypassed.
source: 5 volt ‘high quality power’ -> ‘sink’ components on soundcard (who need the supplied 5V)

I realise that it’s very hard to communicate about sound quality improvements in words, but I still would like too get an impression by description, because it’s better than no communication at all. May be it’s helpful to rank sound quality improvements as I (subjectively) experience them in my setup. I would scale/index them very ROUGHLY like this:
- linear PSU on P4: +90
- Low resistance wire (6AWG or similar) from linear PSU to both P4 and picoPSU/P24: +90 (*)
- Linear PSU on 12 volt rail on P24 through (specific) picoPSU model: +30
- smoothing caps on a switching ATX PSU: +20
- combined optimizations: XP, Kernel and BIOS: +15 <-> + 20
- various releases of cPlay - 2 <-> +4

Is it possible to say where in the above ranking roughly would be:
- by passing the MoBo (chain 2) with ‘high quality power’ from a linear PSU?

I don’t like soldering to my Lynx AES16 or Lynx L22 sound card. But I think I can manage to bypass the MoBo (with help of a PCI riser-card or something. don’t know yet)


(*)
Untill now no other inmates tried out or gave feedback on changing 18AWG wire between a linear PSU and the P4 / P24 for a wire type with much less resistance (6AWG or similar).
Probably many inmates consider me being an honoured member of ‘the ministry of silly tweaks’. :-) But I’m far from that. If I hadn’t tried it myself, I would be very much in favour of Ryelands comments on it. Http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=54333&highlight=sums+Ryelands&r=
But because you suggested I decided to give it a try. So thank you for the suggestion, because it made (very much too my surprise !! ) a very big improvement.

fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
RE: 'ranking' bypassing the MoBo, posted on November 19, 2009 at 08:51:39
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 H,

I thought I had replied about your 6g wire tweak, but cant find the post.

Are you sure it is not the braiding that helps in sound more than the wire gauge??


Most likely I corrected – without knowing- some mismatch or sub-optimal situation., posted on November 19, 2009 at 10:32:05
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Thank you for responding.

I really don’t have a clou of why it does sound much better. Most likely I corrected – without knowing- some mismatch or sub-optimal situation in my setup. (re-connected wires the right way, re-plugged all the gear in the correct way, ect)

I strongly favour Reylands post on this. http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=54333&highlight=sums+Ryelands&r=

But I still would like to know if I accidentally corrected something in my setup for the better without knowing. That’s why I decided to ask other inmates on the AA-forum if they can repeat this and report their findings back to the forum (too try this, one doesn’t need much soldering skills).

I was hoping that a few inmates would try this in their setup. If they would report that it didn’t made any difference in Sound Quality for the better in their setup, than I know for sure that I must have accidentally corrected something in my setup for the better without knowing.

But until now I haven’t got any feedback from inmates who tried it.

fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
RE: 'ranking' bypassing the MoBo, posted on November 16, 2009 at 06:29:59
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Hi Mark,

thanks for asking, I'll try to produce something meaningful on this issue - but I'm afraid the answer is not so straightforward... ;-)

Those of us that use the ESI Juli@ soundcard are in a very comfortable position when it comes to judging which solution is best - we unsolder the on-board regulator (5->3.3V), cut the respective traces on the PCI connector that carry in the voltages from the MoBo, feed Juli@ with clean 3.3V and 5v lines, and we're there. Juli@ has dedicated input/output points (kind of little "drill holes") that are wonderfully suited to take this external voltage supply.

I currently use a Juli@ too but have used a Lynx AES16 before. I have just taken my now obsolete Lynx in my hands and am looking at it - and especially when comparing it with Juli@, it's so §$%§& complex, and sadly this is a complexity that for the most part we don't need... It is an excellent piece of engineering, but I have a hard time identifying a good injection point for clean external power. Ok, there are SMD devices that look like input rail smoothing caps to me, labelled C50 and C51 (far left front side down at the PCI connector) and C52 (far right side), from what I see those could potentially do the job. You also had to take care of 3.3V and +/-12V. While poking around with my multimeter I saw that the PCI traces for these voltages are connected on the board but couldn't find chips that would share that connection. This of course needs more work and thorough analysis. But overall I would say that I do not see why it shouldn't be possible to power at least the whole card with clean external voltages. I personally would prefer cutting traces and soldering regs directly to the board. One next step would be to further identify regulators further "downstream" that do additional regulation, and eventually inject here. But this is open heart surgery ;-)

So since you say you could imagine using a riser card or something similar, i think that goes without bloodshed ;-) and should be easily doable - give it a try!

Do I understand you correctly that solution 3 would be to inject external power directly to the chips or parts of the soundcard? This is complex and challenging and would take a lot of analysis, including soldering then of course, but indeed would be very elegant, since then you maybe could shut of whole parts of the card that are not needed by cMP2 which would be great! But to call that "advanced" would be a massive understatement... ;-)

So apart from my estimation that solution 2 (at least for a start) is the only feasible and viable, here's my judgement od the effect of such an operation: when I did this to my Juli@, i.e. cut the PCI traces, unsoldered the on-board reg, connected clean 3.3V and 5v lines (battery plus cap/resistor plus reg) to the respective onboard connectors, the effect was not subtle at all but in an order of magnitudes. See, by doing that we (i) isolate the soundcard from all the powerline "pollution" on the MoBo, and (ii) feed it with dedicated clean power, thus massively increasing the stability and purity of its working environment. Ok, a card like the Lynx creates its own mess and pollution through its complexity and all that stuff that's onboard and working, so maybe the effect is a bit less, but you could think of adding caps and replacing regs (see Greg/Gstew mods to Juli@) and further improve.

So again: I would expect a top-of-the-ranking improvement. The more regs and caps you can replace or upgrade, the more you can add to this improvement. And as you already suggest: the first step is simple, get yourself a riser card, identify which voltages are really needed, and replace them with external ones (that's how Alfred/sonics had proceeded when developing the Juli@ PSU mod). in a next step you then could follw the way the current takes and improve upon its lines. Give it a try, IMHO you can't loose! :-)

Good luck!
Robert

RE: * NEW * Alternative approach to CPU (P4) power supply, posted on November 15, 2009 at 16:10:41
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 For those who wish to learn please listen to Bertel. As Cics is the king of the audiophile software, Bertel is the king of audiophile hardware. He is not saying but he has singlehandedly solved the metallic/static noise issue of a juli@/cmp^2 based system. He has helped me tremendously with tweaking my hardware to optimum results. It is not easy to implement a a total battery powered system and I don't recommend it for the feint of heart. I approached it but was limited by my soldering skills. But for those that want to achieve this, it is possible.

A fine young man not too disimilar from Cics in his knowledge of these pc audiophile matters and willingness to help others.
RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on November 8, 2009 at 10:50:58
Windows X
 cics, could you please add album art browsing using folder.jpg in located cue folder?

For cMP, Ones in MediaMonkey is good example but I just want simple ones. There're Genre/Artist already so one extra button for AlbumArt and show folder.jpg with artist and album info below.

For cPlay, Add album info panel below songlist containing album art, artist, album, genre, and year.

I know this may sound a bit too demanding but this would make a lot of people happily using it. I wanted to update ones myself but there's no code for contribution.

voltage settings and resolution, posted on November 7, 2009 at 18:49:36
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
 dear cMP fans,

getting a little closer every week....to that magical liquid and effortless digital reproduction, that this equally magical project is all about.
as things a getting better, I´ve noticed that a some demanding recordings or certain passages are being slightly "pressured". most problematic are large orchestra crecendo´s and complex passages with voice(s), where tonal liquidity is suffering resolution and maybe a slight distortion sets in.
previously I´ve thought it was the recording itself, but I come to suspecting the BIOS settings may be too low on certain channels.

have anyone similar observations ?


input very welcome !

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on October 31, 2009 at 13:37:10
alba63
Audiophile

Posts: 7
Location: Berlin
Joined: August 5, 2009
 Hello, having found out about cMP only a few months ago, I was quite interested and finally built a running system.

My last attempt included the recommended Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L with ESI Juli etc.

The sytem was ready and running, and sounding amazingly good, all the recommended tweakings were applied, including Minlogon, then I tried to lower the cpu voltage in the BIOS from 0.85V (running fine) to 0.80V.
When - in the "MB Intelligent Tweaker (M.I.T.)" menu of the BIOS I had changed the value to 0.80V the confirmation prompt (n/y) appeared, but the keyboard did not seem to react or transmit the keystroke "Y". I also noticed some flickering on the screen. So I just made a reboot without trying to confirm the new setting, but after reboot my screen remained black. No entering Setup was possible. Keyboard LED also remains black etc.

Question:
- Can the attempt to lower cpu voltage below the least stable value (for Windows) damage the Motherboard?
- How can I make the sytem boot into the BIOS, or reset the BIOS to default values?

- or simply what can I do from now on?

I am really frustrated because everything seemed to work so fine, and the sound was far beyond what I knew from computer sound....

Thanks for any useful advice....

Bernhard
RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on October 31, 2009 at 15:14:10
Audio Bling
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Australia
Joined: October 9, 2007
 This problem will occur if you lower CPU voltage excessively or without sufficient “burn in”. It does not damage the motherboard. I recall Dawnrazor posted some info on this problem and its correction a short time ago; it would be worth your while to look that post up.

Essentially, you will need to reset the CMOS which will allow you to boot and re-establish your BIOS settings. (See mobo manual if you don’t know how to do this.) However, this time don’t go so far as to drop to 0.80V. Give it a week or so of use at say, 0.85V to burn in before attempting to lower CPU voltage again. Be aware that you might not be able to go below 0.80V as there seems to be some variability in what people can get to. (I have gotten down to 0.79375 @ 150MHz.)

Hope this helps.
RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on October 31, 2009 at 16:27:25
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey AB,

I can kind of get cics .75 v and 840mhz setting. Just not from a cold boot.

The best has been 900mhz and .85 v at cold start up so far. But that happens intermittently.

I ran it at 2.8ghz and 1.35 v for a few days and while that seemed to help, the lowest ones are still far away. ANd I did have a ceiling fan on when running 2.8ghz just in case, but still 35c was the highest temp IIRC. The top wasn't on either.

What I have noticed is that now it just seems to leave everything alone when it cant boot and resets only the


RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on October 31, 2009 at 15:42:06
alba63
Audiophile

Posts: 7
Location: Berlin
Joined: August 5, 2009
 Aaaaahhhh! What a relief. Your posting is full of great info and very helpful. I checked the manual indeed and all one has to do is to short 2 pins on the Mobo with a screwdriver, then the cmos is reset.

Thank you very much indeed. I will not go lower than 0.85 for a while now. Then I try in very small steps.

Bernie

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 03:53:12
DeDe
 I’ve not been able to get a reliable cold boot at anything less than 200MHz and 1v, despite a couple of months of burn-in. What I can do is to use the Gigabyte EasyTune utility to reduce the voltage as low as 0.8v after I have successfully booted.

It would perhaps be nice if there was a utility that allowed conservative bios setting for a reliable cold boot and then automatically reset things to more optimum values for what we want. At shut-down the utility would restore the reliable cold boot settings.
RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 04:03:58
alba63
Audiophile

Posts: 7
Location: Berlin
Joined: August 5, 2009
 What exactly are your components?
I have
- Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L (not "ES2L") with EIST disabled,
- ESI Juli@ soundcard, with analogue part removed (external DAC used)
- notebook HD (WD 500GB),
- 256MB RAM,
- Intel dual core E7200 with an arctic cooling blabla cooler (which is too loud).
- PSU is Earth Watts 430W (I think it is Asus). That's it.

BIOS and Windows configured as described on cics new cMP2 website.
I am not down to 0.85V which works - fortunately stable - however I haven't yet installed the modified BIOS/ firmware.

Those are the recommended components and if you use the same, it should work... I do not think the variation inside the same series is so big.

good luck
Bernie

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 04:50:40
DeDe
 My components are not very dissimilar from yours. The most significant difference, I suppose, is that I’ve got the GA-G31M-ES2L motherboard.

- Gigabyte GA-G31M-ES2L with EIST disabled
- Intel dual core E7300
- Thermalright AX-140 heatsink
- Notebook HD (Samsung 160GB),
- 1GB Kingston RAM
- Corsair HX-450 power supply
- ESI Juli@ soundcard

I made all the Windows configuration changes detailed on cics new cMP2 website and also the bios settings as far as I was able to.

I didn’t go immediately for the 256MB RAM because I wanted to preserve the ability to compare cPlay with Foobar. For the moment I’ve got 1GB.
RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 05:26:57
alba63
Audiophile

Posts: 7
Location: Berlin
Joined: August 5, 2009
 Well I first had also the GA-G31M-ES2L and it worked with my configuration and 0.85V.
The bigger the RAM the more electricity it consumes - at least that's what I read. So 256MB would consume less than 1GB. You might try out 256.

What do you mean compare cplay with foobar? I use also other audio software, in my case J. River Media Jukebox - it sounds quite good, I could not hear a difference compared to foobar, but I do hear a difference in cplay which sounds better than Media Jukebox. In terms of useability, Media Jukebox is a Rolls Royce compared to cplay which is just a pain in the back. A lot of cue files do not work correctly with it here, it does not understand anything but WAV and flac, so for my other files I use Media Jukebox. I still run it with cMP software started...

Anyway, I think playback is possible with all those softwares when only 256MB are installed.

Whether the PSU makes a difference or not, I do not know, but I'd rather say no.

Good luck

Bernie

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 06:16:08
DeDe
 I used cPlay in some during some early experiments before I finally assembled my dedicated computer and I was concerned by its very basic interface, its lack of library facilities and its refusal to work with every cuesheet. I wanted to see if I could get acceptable results from Foobar once I had a good hardware setup. As it’s turned out, the sonic benefits of cPlay are rather substantial.

I’ll probably change my RAM to something smaller. I wasn’t sure if 256Mb would be ok for Foobar, so I played safe to begin with.

What I really need at the moment is to be able to boot with something better than 200Mhz and 1v.
RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 08:06:28
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 What I have experienced is that when my pc resets bios it sometimes resets all settings (not just MIT). When I disable and reset per Cics specs then I can lower clock and voltage. Check out your bios.

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 06:26:13
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 What I have experienced is that when my pc resets bios it sometimes resets all settings (not just MIT). When I disable and reset per Cics specs then I can lower clock and voltage. Check out your bios.

RE: cMP - Gigabyte mainboard problem, posted on November 1, 2009 at 10:11:59
alba63
Audiophile

Posts: 7
Location: Berlin
Joined: August 5, 2009
 Yes, indeed many BIOS, and also some Windows settings had to be redone. But after the first time you do that quicker than the first time....

And thanks to this forum (!) and the cMP2 HomePage and the engagement of cics I now have a dirt cheap audio PC that delivers excellent sound, better than anyting I had previously heard out of a computer...

regards
Bernie

Updates to Juli@ Follies Post WAAAY below..., posted on October 11, 2009 at 10:46:58
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Joined: September 21, 2001
 I've the following info to my Juli@ Follies post below:

1. Info about one more regulator chip on the analog card which appears to power what appear to be the mixer chips, U24 and U26.

2. Info about the balanced outputs and the unbalanced and balanced inputs.

3. Info about the use of 5v on the digital card

4. Preliminary notes on where the outputs from the DAC go.


This all was prompted by:

1. I'm modifying a Juli@'s analog balanced outputs for another inmate, so I needed info on the balanced side.

2. I suspect there are some additional gains available by upgrading that last regulator chip that provides the negative rail to the mixer chips... the positive rail for those chips are covered by U10.

3. Replacing the output muting transistors with relay-based ones is a common modification for circuits such as this, providing some sonic gains.

4. I strongly suspect if one is using the Juli@ just as an output device, there are some serious sonic gains available by bypassing the mixers and output circuitry and taking the DAC output to a simplified and more direct output stage. I have this on my queue of Juli@ mods to try.

I hope this information will be useful for others!

Greg in Mississippi

Somehow I missed it but: the new documentation is great !!, posted on September 24, 2009 at 03:34:04
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Cics,

Somehow I missed it: http://cplay.sourceforge.net
but the new documentation is great !!
Thanks to Cics and everybody who contributed.
Paragrafs, content, lay-out, ect look good to the eye and are clear.

Now I don't hesitate any longer to point audiophiles with less PC skills to the cMP2 project and encourage them too try it and 'take the dive'.

There will be many more happy cPlay and cMP users on the way. :-)
fully AOB optimized cMP2 PC -> Lynx AES16 -> XLR AES/EBU -> Lavry Black DA10 -> XLR Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300
forum thread navigation - and renewed request to cPlay, posted on October 2, 2009 at 19:48:41
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
 starting a new thread in the cMP forum seems to be...eh, just another answer to the previous.
dear administrators, -is that intended web-design or just a missing link ?

with aljordan coming up with playlist in java script and numerous beautiful improvements of cics phenomenal efforts to our all delights, I´m just a little humble to forward my question again, about the eventual possibility of designing the cPlay´er without asio. i.e. in kernel streaming output.

well knowing that this wish is based on the rare configuration with thuneau´s allocator VST digital XO software, I´m just plain curious if the double ASIO request can anyhow be configured differently.

I´m not a ++CC computer programer, but maybe there is just somehow a way to link cPlay with allocator and obtain cMP2 ?
-it just seems to be such a straightforward task.....

-or maybe not !






RE: forum thread navigation - and renewed request to cPlay, posted on October 4, 2009 at 06:31:21
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 It would be nice is to get a feature to see latest posts to a thread - that way all posts can be easily picked up. Hopefully sometime soon...

cPlay doing KS can be achieved using ASIO4ALL. In ASIO4ALL, set sound output device to Lynx. This way, we get cPlay > ASIO4ALL > KS Lynx.

RE: forum thread navigation - and renewed request to cPlay, posted on October 4, 2009 at 12:14:51
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey C,

Glad to see this post. I tried to explain in my e-mail but not sure if I was too clear.

2nd try.

cPlay > ASIO4ALL > KS Lynx.

That is a start, but what we need is cPlay > ASIO4ALL > Allocator > KS Lynx.

AFIAK ASIO4all only talks to sound cards, not other applications.

Ideally it would be cPlay > KS > Allocator > ASIO Lynx.

Or as you pointed out, Allocator could function like an asio driver. That would be the best.

At first glance it really does look like jack is the way to go. This week is hectic but I will test Jack with cmp one day. I think it can be done and will certainly put in the effort if it helps.
VST plugin support for Allocator may be the easiest way, posted on October 5, 2009 at 16:18:59
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 This would also remove Jack and make things a lot simpler.

Will look into it...

RE: VST plugin support for Allocator may be the easiest way, posted on October 5, 2009 at 20:39:19
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 YES!!!!!

And while I dont know much at all about vst plugins except that cplay with vst support would solve everything for us poor lynx users, I imagine that there are other vst plugins besides allocator that would be a benefit.

For instance arent there ones that do room correction??

Anyhow, thanks so much for looking into it!!


Here is one example, posted on October 5, 2009 at 20:56:54
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 of room correction that is a vst plugin.

Man would that be great to be able to get crossovers and room correction on a cmp2 box from cplay!


Won't plug-in need to handle sample rates up to192kHz? nt, posted on October 6, 2009 at 00:16:44
Ebit
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Location: Down Under
Joined: October 26, 2008
 Frank

Only if you are upsampling and, posted on October 6, 2009 at 06:57:18
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 that was just an EXAMPLE. It was my mistake I suppose. Life has taught me that I seem to be one of the only ones who think GENERALLY.

I didnt do an exhaustive search or anything, just a cursory one to enforce the concept. But in this specific case as I should have known better that no one would see it as a general case, one might get better results with upsampling to 96k in cplay, as the plugin only supports up to 96k, but running room correction.

That might be a better trade off than 192k and no room correction. Who knows. It certainly would be nice to be able to weight that tradeoff on my own.

And there might be a plugin that does support higher sampling rates...


cMP & JACK, posted on October 5, 2009 at 03:55:58
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
 don´t we all live in hope....
or, the hope is the last thing that dies..... :-)

without having any idea how programming language works, or how complicated it would be to write a KS output, it´s just an suggestion.

got my MINLOGON implemented this morning, and it´s just another few layers closer to the music. WOW !
definition, transparency and liquidity another significant step forward. -and more dynamics too!

...it´s sort of sad that my hard disk / digital crossover / musicplayer is close to all optimizations....yeah well, except the real cMP mode.....

it has exceeded my wildest expectations !

RE: cMP & JACK, posted on October 5, 2009 at 06:45:36
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 P,

See, I have been a fanboy ever since I did a cmp2 box with the wrong hardware.

Now that I have the right hardware, things are even better. Cics has done a bang up job on this and is leaps and bounds ahead of the "just add a usb dac and lots of ram to any old computer" crowd.

I am totally busy this week, but I will be trying to get jack and allocator to work on my new rig....I'll let you know.


RE: forum thread navigation - and renewed request to cPlay, posted on October 4, 2009 at 07:07:16
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
 dear cics,

thanks for your reply.

still struggling to imagine how to implement the allocator in such a KS configuration.
I have not a lot of experience with asio4all, but maybe you can deepen your thoughts on this....

the allocator is a VST shell and requires the lynx twoB asio driver to route the 6 channels (bass-,mid- and treble bands) separately.

I´ve tried to run the JACK router as "preparatory action" within cMP but have not got that to work.

as winamp and apparently the J.River players have special plug-in´s for allocator, it´s just a thought if anything simmilar could be arranged for cPlay.

having optimized my computer (GA -EG45M-UD2H with E7400, running at same values as Greg´s setup) and stripped windows (minlogon is due tomorrow), it´s actually only the cMP mode that remains.
the allocator is a phenomenal tool to control the phase issues of my magnepans, and is an integral part of my setup.

....or, maybe I´m only dreaming of christmas presents already :-)

Window Activation, posted on September 14, 2009 at 11:51:03
ecir38
Audiophile

Posts: 262
Location: New Orleans
Joined: May 9, 2007
 I performed bios mods before installing XP SP2 and chose note to use networking functionality. I thought that windows activation would go away after performing chapters 7-12 but I keep getting the message that it needs to be activated in so many days.

Not sure if I missed something along the way and now am wondering if this may be a problem.

Brad

Implement MINLOGON, posted on September 19, 2009 at 18:59:23
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 725
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 and you never be prompted again

MINLOGON -crash ! XPlite file protection ??, posted on October 7, 2009 at 07:57:26
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
 short was the delight of listening to minlogon.....

wanted to re-enable the file protection with XPlite after successfully implementing minlogon, but when clicking the WFP tab in XPlite, the system crashes with a bluescreen.....

the boot time is as long as it was in normal winlogon mode, but there is no password prompt.


what to do ??

RE: MINLOGON -crash ! XPlite file protection ??, posted on October 8, 2009 at 02:22:58
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 If you didn't reverse the minlogon and winlogon filename changes and delete the "config" registry entry, you will have to do it from outside your system. If you have dual-boot, do it from the other system. Otherwise, put the hard drive into another computer and do it from that computer's system.

Suggestions for the future: 1. Don't reinstate WFP once it's been disabled by xplite, 2. Use the Safe Mode method to implement minlogon and you won't have to use xplite at all.

MINLOGON -where will my .vbs threads go ?, posted on September 27, 2009 at 18:34:21
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
 to all of you having implemented MINLOGON :

my music server is not entirely a data server only, but a XP based cPlay>JACK audio connection>thuneau ALLOCATOR crossover>lynx twoB -music mashine.
-in order to keep this rather tricky combination running smoothly, I´m dependent on a .vbs script to connect all the components and "fooling" the ASIO drivers.
this script was a nerve breaking task to get figured out, so I´m cautious to do it any harm, but I´m keen to implement MINLOGON and wonder which changes MINLOGON does to the functionality of this crucial script command.

-will MINLOGON still "acknowledge" the desktop ?
-which threads|accounts does MINLOGON alter ?
-where to put this .vbs script and it´s dependencies before implementing MINLOGON ?

give me encouragement !

RE: MINLOGON -where will my .vbs threads go ?, posted on September 28, 2009 at 02:18:18
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 1. You will be using the Default User desktop, and will need to redo many of the customisations you did for cMP.
2. It would be easier for you to try with what you have than do the research to catalogue all the system differences with minlogon.
3. I've used simple vb programs with minlogon without difficulty, but couldn't say if yours will work - again, try and see.

I like to experiment on a separate machine before messing with my primary source of musical enjoyment, but if you can't do that, you should be able to revert from minlogon back to your usual desktop if necessary. Proceed carefully, and read all the threads about minlogon.

RE: MINLOGON -where will my .vbs threads go ?, posted on September 28, 2009 at 02:48:21
ForgotPassword
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Joined: September 21, 2009
 Is it convenient to back up your system drive with something like TrueImage? I think it's alot less tedious than researching every detail about minlogon.
"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we would let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines." N.P.
RE: MINLOGON -where will my .vbs threads go ?, posted on September 28, 2009 at 03:22:10
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 Is it convenient to back up your system drive with something like TrueImage?

Agreed. I'd go further and say that creating image files of the system partition at key points in a cMP^2 build is mandatory, especially if you have a bespoke setup as play-mate does here. Recovery from a howler takes minutes, not hours,

Finding optimal network settings for a "headless" cMP^2 system (there were surprises), I must have restored a "last known good" twenty times or more. Without image backups, I'd never have managed.

I think it's a lot less tedious than researching every detail about minlogon.

Again, I agree but, when seger says "read all the threads about minlogon", I'm not sure it's necessary. Follow the procedure at:

http://cplay.sourceforge.net/pmwiki.php?n=CMP.ApdxBAdvanced

which was, well, first described by seger. It's rock solid. (The manual method is best left to those atoning for sins.)

Th minlogon tweak is very effective but acquired an early reputation as flakey. With seger's method and provided a backup is made first (to guard against user error), I don't think it's true any more.

Go for it.

Dave

Can we retest E5200?, posted on September 19, 2009 at 23:40:23
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 With new BIOS settings (esp disabling EIST), it would be very interesting to see what the E5200 offers.

Just saw your request, posted on October 3, 2009 at 07:44:49
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 725
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 so little happens here I only look at it occasionally.

My E5200 is now in my office computer and not easily (I am lazy) accessed.

Though, remember, it would not allow the same settings as E7200 as far as RAM timing. I, of course, do not know how important that is in absolute terms, but I do remember it to be significantly different.

My guess is that it is not worth the trouble. Even way back then, when switching back to E7200 I remember there was a robustness to the sound in comparison to E5200. I do think I really heard this because I wanted E5200 to be better!

It would run on very low voltage, though, but, again, I wonder if that would be running into that old audio bugaboo of the diminishing return?

I have not taken the chance to compliment you on the website. Very nice and should make it simplicity for the motivated music lover to use your handiwork. Though one wonders how much easier, than free, should one make it? cics, you are quite a fine fellow!

Bye,

Rick McInnis
RE: Just saw your request, posted on October 4, 2009 at 06:25:57
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 E5200's attraction is the smaller L2 cache (2MB vs 3MB). We only need 2MB.

Anyway, I think the new Core i3 32nm CPU may be even better (but this needs new mobo and cooler). Although this beast comes with 4MB L3 cache, with right BIOS settings, power consumption could be significantly lower than E7xxx. We could possibly see ±10 watts consumption doing 192k@SRC145db!

RE: Window Activation, posted on September 14, 2009 at 13:32:34
RayBan
Audiophile

Posts: 57
Location: Vegas
Joined: February 12, 2009
Contributor
  Since: May 27, 2009
 I reloaded XP numerous times and had to activate everytime by phone. If you don't it will quit when the number of days arrives.

Maybe someone knows a method to avoid this as one day XP will be "No More" and if you have to reload you will be SOL!!
RayBan
RE: Window Activation, posted on September 14, 2009 at 13:47:17
edward
Audiophile

Posts: 77
Joined: September 28, 2007
 The last time I set up a cMP machine, I never activated XP. IIRC after I went through the minlogon process it stopped asking me to activate. I've been using this machine for 6 months like this.

Should have read all of the posts!!!, posted on September 19, 2009 at 19:00:11
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 725
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Sorry

Thanks, posted on September 14, 2009 at 14:59:09
ecir38
Audiophile

Posts: 262
Location: New Orleans
Joined: May 9, 2007
 So either I call microsoft or carefully replace winlogon with minlogon. Thinking I will try the later since all other steps have been performed.

Brad

Minlogon, posted on September 16, 2009 at 05:51:46
ecir38
Audiophile

Posts: 262
Location: New Orleans
Joined: May 9, 2007
 Installed minlogon without a hitch, I used seger's method. For preperation I read all previous post about minlogon here and on the cPlay thread. Thanks to all that were involved in what I thought was going to be tough into a fairly easy process. From all the reading on the subject it sounds like this makes a dramatic improvement but I haven't done any listening yet. Installing minlogon for me is recommended because it cut my boot time in half!!!

As recommended recheck your optimizations since some things do revert back after install. This took longer than installing minlogon.

Thanks Again,
Brad

CPU temp, posted on September 5, 2009 at 21:51:22
ecir38
Audiophile

Posts: 262
Location: New Orleans
Joined: May 9, 2007
 What is a safe CPU temp with a E7200 and the GA-G31M-S2L?

Has anyone looked at changing the heatsinks for the north and south bridge?

Brad

RE: CPU temp, posted on September 6, 2009 at 03:21:00
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Heatsinks on mobo chipset are fine. Undervolting FSB and underclocking also reduces power in Northbridge.

CPU temp can go to ±75°C without any problems.

Bios says one thing and Cpuid says another, posted on September 3, 2009 at 13:43:36
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 which one is right?

The bios shows 6*140 or 840hz and .83 volts, but cpuid 1.46 shows 6*266 or 1600 at .80 volts.

Which one is right? I reboot to see if the bios changes are still there, and they are.

Do I need the new version of cpuid?


RE: Bios says one thing and Cpuid says another, posted on September 5, 2009 at 10:52:45
RayBan
Audiophile

Posts: 57
Location: Vegas
Joined: February 12, 2009
Contributor
  Since: May 27, 2009
 There have been a couple new versions recently published.
RayBan
RE: Bios says one thing and Cpuid says another, posted on September 5, 2009 at 13:22:05
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Yeah I tried cpuid 1.52 or 56 whatever the latest is. It wasn't cpuid, it was me.

The bios would reflect my changes and I guess they weren't stable so it would load one that was without me knowing it....

We'll see how it goes.


Update, posted on September 3, 2009 at 18:33:55
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 This bios in the GA-G31M-ES2L is a bit different than I remember other bios being.

I set it to the correct settings and then it seems to reboot and change always to 6 X 266.

Cpuid is right.

What do I need to do to have it go lower than 266??

What am I missing?


RE: Update, posted on September 3, 2009 at 18:58:03
edward
Audiophile

Posts: 77
Joined: September 28, 2007
 If it resets itself to the default FSB (266), that indicates that whatever you tried to set it to was too unstable. I've had that happen to me on the GA-G31M-S2L board as well. IOW, you're probably not going to be able to set it to 140 right off the bat with a new board and cpu. Try playing with it at 266 for awhile (possibly days) and then reduce it slowly. So try 200 and play with that for awhile and then try 150 and play with that and then finally go to 140. You may not get there until you've "burned it in" for awhile - perhaps a week or more.

I should also add, you're kind of lucky that it just changes the FSB and then continues to boot. With my board, if I pick an unstable setting (like voltage too low or something) then it doesn't boot at all and is completely hosed. I then have to remove the CMOS battery and reset the CMOS and start all over. Using the CMOS reset jumpers doesn't even work.

RE: Update, posted on September 3, 2009 at 20:04:12
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Edward,

I thought it might be my impatience and that it takes time for the components to settle. (when I asked my gamer computer geek he said that things usually got worse over time and when I asked, "...wouldnt it be the opposite because I am underclocking things?" he just scoffed and we agreed to disagree...

I will have to go slow then. Thanks for letting me know.

FWIW, I DID have to use the cmos jumpers a few times when I set the voltage too low.

Bummer that your board behaved that way, but sounds like you have it where you want it.


RE: Update, posted on September 3, 2009 at 21:11:25
ecir38
Audiophile

Posts: 262
Location: New Orleans
Joined: May 9, 2007
 It looks like we are at about the same progress on a cMP, I am using the S2L.

I had to set CPU Host Frequency to 170 to get my M.I.T setting to stop resetting. VID at .85000 wouldn't allow reboot and had to clear CMOS so put it at .95000 for the time being to move forward. I figured I would try lowering once chapters 5-12 are done. So far all is stable through half of the optimizations.

Using the website for your build sure makes you appreciate the hard work that was put into it, thanks to all that were involved.

Brad

cMP vs Linn DS?, posted on August 30, 2009 at 07:50:27
wcvb
 Has anyone compared the cMP to the Linn DS? I'm particularly interested in comparison with the digital outputs of the Linn Sneaky DS and Majik DS.

These two Linn DS models can be used effectively as Ethernet to SPDIF converters. I'd be interested in people's thoughts on Ethernet to SPDIF as compared to USB or FireWire to SPDIF conversion.

wcvb
RE: cMP vs Linn DS?, posted on August 30, 2009 at 22:13:35
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 WC,

i doubt you will get an answer.

Those are drastically different products.

Anyone who has built a cmp2 box is too busy listening to compare something so ridiculously expensive as the Linn gear to their cmp2 rig, and i doubt anyone who can afford a Linn solution would "slum" with a mere $1000 pc transport.

Also most are using pci to spdif for their dacs and my hunch is that anyone using USB or Firewire probably isnt running spdif out to a dac, but is using a USB or Firewire DAC. AFAIK this avoids spdif all together as does the analog outs of a soundcard.


My cMP 100% batterie feeded, posted on August 30, 2009 at 02:58:42
hanssatink
Audiophile

Posts: 65
Joined: September 13, 2008



Hi all,

Here is a picture of my cMP batterie project. Yesterday i'll added a SSD disk. It was the last part. Sound is incredible clean with 100% batterie supply.

Case: Antec, Mobo: EG45M, Proc: E7400, RAM: Mushkin EM2-6400, Sound:Juli@ (only digital part)

Power.
I have one switch for 'playing / off / charge'. The PicoPSU is used for 5 and 3,3 V and when it starts it also activates the 12 Volt low drop regulator and the relais for feeding 3,3V to the Juli@. All 12 Volt lines are feeded by a LOW drop Regulator (Micrel MIC29502BT), straight from the batterie. The batterie is a 45AH traction type. For charging the lipofers i used my THEL regulator. I used an variable s-psu for the THEL input (6V). 13,7V input from the batterie charger generated a lot of heat in the THEL. It can play all day without having to charge. Total current (main Batterie 12V) is 1,9 Amp. My Buffalo DAC and AMP4 are also feeded with batteries. NO 230V mains at all!

Feel free to give comments or questions.







RE: My cMP 100% batterie feeded, posted on August 30, 2009 at 07:48:54
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Nice work!

At 22.8 watts you can definitely drop the CPU fan and use Thermalright's fanless option.

Power can be further reduced - what voltages/frequencies are you at? See here (and Greg's follow-up). Set CPU host to 140 if possible.

RE: My cMP 100% batterie feeded, posted on August 31, 2009 at 07:57:09
hanssatink
Audiophile

Posts: 65
Joined: September 13, 2008
 Thx for the suggestion. The CPU fan is a next step!

Edit: ill tried it, but without fan the mobo won't start.. Whats the trick??

I collect my mobo settings and report them here. The most are equal to Greg's reports.
RE: My cMP 100% batterie feeded, posted on August 30, 2009 at 05:07:41
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Beautiful!!

Anyone with the GA-G31M-ES2L know which, posted on August 29, 2009 at 07:55:37
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 driver on the disk will make the PCI Device warning in the device manager go away?

Since I don't have internet and all the other devices seem to be installed, I am guessin that those missing drivers have something to do with the PCI DEVICE error.

I know, just put in the disk and install it. But they made it on a DVD and my external drive is cd only. SO I guessed and copied files from the disk to the usb thumb drive and that found most of the missing drivers.

I do have a dvd drive in another pc and while it is a pain I can put it in the new rig if I have to. I just thought I would ask if anyone knew which folder to copy to save some time...or if this will make the internet work anyhow.
RE: Anyone with the GA-G31M-ES2L know which, posted on August 29, 2009 at 09:56:36
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Joined: September 21, 2001
 It may be a bit late for this trick, but the last several times I did installs (from when I was trying this board and the GA-EG45M-UD2H board), I went into the BIOS aand disabled all extraneous devices BEFORE installing Windows... this reduced the number of drivers I needed to install from the disk.

I don't remember for sure (heck, that was almost three months ago!), but I don't think I had to do any driver installs because the optimizations took care of the rest of them.

Greg in Mississippi

P.S. I believe I got this tip originally from Ryelands in a private communication.

RE: Anyone with the GA-G31M-ES2L know which, posted on August 30, 2009 at 22:16:06
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Thanks.

I just borrowed a DVDrom drive and got it going. I needed the internet to authorize windows.

Everything went smooth once I found the driver for the ethernet.

I do remember Ryelands telling me about the bios first trick. That is a great trick...


Bios Question, posted on August 28, 2009 at 13:13:14
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 I remember that Cics was able to get a special bios written.

Do I need this, and will it work for the GA-G31M-ES2L??

And where are the latest bios settings and what about nopae? Wasn't that ditched and then reevaluated? What was the verdict?


Special BIOS and new documentation!, posted on August 28, 2009 at 23:12:02
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Special BIOS is only available on the discontinued mobo (M-S2L).

See new website for full build details.

NEW DOC IS GREAT!!!, posted on August 29, 2009 at 09:50:40
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Joined: September 21, 2001
 Thanks cics!

Greg in Mississippi

Display Brightness of Zalman HD160XT Plus case, posted on August 28, 2009 at 00:00:33
nagual19
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Location: Vienna
Joined: July 4, 2003
 Hello CMP builders, I've finally bought the Zalman HD160XT enclosure, because I am extremely impressed by the performance of a CMP 'squared' computer transport and I think this should deserve the nicest 'wrapping' possible.

So far the transfer of the components from my old antec tower case to the Zalman went smoothly, only thing that I find very distracting is its display brightness (this seems at 100percent like all new LCDs).

@ Cics, gstew, can you eventually tell me how to turn the display brightness down? I searched via google, it seems this is only possible using Zalmans lousy windows software - even then, is it that the display is at the default (100%) brightness" until the software is loaded after Windows login and finally turns the brightness down?

I would be extremely happy if this software is able to write the brightness setting in some sort of firmware, then I'd have to install it only once (using a second Windows partition since i don't want these crap to spoil my CMP installation)

A big thank you to cics and all the other people's hard work in making this possible! The sound produced by CMP2 and my modded Zhaolu DAC is the BEST I ever experienced, a dream come true also from a price standpoint. I am spreading the word to all my friends --

Adjust brightness using buttons below LCD screen (menu, etc.), posted on August 28, 2009 at 23:15:28
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Menu > Color > Brightness

Definitely don't need the software.

Motherboard grounding question, posted on August 27, 2009 at 18:46:31
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 I just finished assembling the wooden computer case I will be using to house my new cmp2 system.

Looking at the mobo, I see that the screw holes seem to have some conductive elements and since normal computer cases are metal i am assuming that the motherboard in a normal case gets grounded when one screws it into the case.

Is this true, and if so for those of you who have also built a case of wood, how did you handle the grounding?

On a similar note I was thinking of using t-shield for some shielding and it was recommended that I tie the shielding into the ground on the psu. Is that correct, and would I also tie in the mobo at this point too??

And did you screw the mobo right into the wood, or did you use some kind of stand off so the mobo was slightly above the wood? If so what did you use for a stand off?

TIA


RE: Motherboard grounding question, posted on August 29, 2009 at 09:40:59
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Joined: September 21, 2001
 First I want to say I'm no EE or grounding expert.

With that said, I'm slowly working towards a wood support for my cMP2 (not really a case) with separate metal shielding enclosures for the motherboard and the power supplies. I intend to tie the metal shield around the motherboard to the board. I also bring all my power supply grounds to the motherboard via the PS connections, making the motherboard ground plane the star (since that's where most of the circulating currents are created).

Theob, I keep meaning to respond to your original post about connecting to the wall socket gound and just haven't... I've been doing that too since going with the separate linear power supplies and also noted a difference (slight and subtle, but noticable).

On standoffs, I'd use either wood, brass, copper, or nylon, in that order of preference. I have damping rings from Herbie's tube dampers around the aluminum standoffs in my Zalman case and that also makes a worthwhile difference. An interesting thing about this is that at one point, I another 10 or so dampers just setting between the motherboard and the case bottom in addition to the dampers on the standoffs... that was WAY too dull. It was one of the first times I've ever gotten something over-damped.

Later!

Greg in Mississippi <- working on separate I2S-connected DAC cards now.

RE: Motherboard grounding question, posted on August 28, 2009 at 03:39:36
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I have my cmp in a metal case and all I can say is that when I grounded the mobo to a wall mains outlet screw another level of transparency was achieved. At first I thought I was hearing things so I asked my wife to choose a preference (sonically) between grounded and ungrounded and she heard what I heard. So try it for yourself.

RE: Motherboard grounding question, posted on August 28, 2009 at 09:23:19
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Theob,

How did you ground it?

Run a wire from a screw to the screw on an outlet?


RE: Motherboard grounding question, posted on August 28, 2009 at 17:30:58
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 yes make sure its a screw on the mobo.

battery power, posted on August 8, 2009 at 03:51:44
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
 with battery driven power there is much to be gained....

is there anyone who have tried this ?

http://www.oceanserver-store.com/modules.html

it seems that could be a quite promising turnkey solution.

-keen on comments !

RE: battery power, posted on August 19, 2009 at 13:20:44
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Hi mate! ;-)

I have neither tried this nor do I have any particular knowledge about this product/solution, but it sounds interesting from the charging/handling side of things. It combines a number of battery packs with a regulated voltage output, and it provides ATX signaling, a VERY interesting feature.

However, there's two aspects to take care of:

- When it comes to proper voltage supply for digital circuits, providing the power as quickly and as exactly is of utmost importance, thus internal resistance of the power supply is key. But when adding battery packs like NiMH, internal resistance soon goes over the top - I know that because in my experiments with NiMH packs I have easily reached levels well into the thousands of mOhm...

- This is not a problem when combining the packs with appropriate capacitance - but the regulator needs to be able to handle huge capacitance. For this reason I use THEL regulators, they deliberately have a somewhat higher internal resistance and react quite "slow" providing a "weak" power supply which can successfully feed and load even huge capacitance of several ten thousands of uF.

- As for 3.3V, I prefer direct supply with LiFePo packs which have unmatched internal resistance and usually last very long when sized properly. So in my system, I boot up with a regular ATX power supply to get the ATX boot timing etc. right and then switch over to clean battery power - a modular, non-integrated, quite "old-fashioned" approach that in turn gives me full control and exchangeability of all components involved, I think that's what I prefer ;-)

Regards,
Robert
current cMP hardware recommendation question, posted on August 4, 2009 at 18:22:49
alba63
 Hello, I am new here, I would like to build a PC transport as described, however several of the parts originally mentioned in 2007 are hardly available anymore, in particular:
1. Mainboard Biostar P4M890- M7 PCI-E
2. PSU Enermax Noisetaker II 485

Eventually it may be possible to get one used on Ebay, but are there more recent components that are easier to get and allow the same tweakings necessary for the cMP as described?

Thanks for a pointer in the right direction, the thread here is too long to find the right things specially when new to the topic.

thanks and regards
Bernie

RE: current cMP hardware recommendation question, posted on August 4, 2009 at 20:49:07
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Alba,

Welcome.

Here is a link of a list of some recent hardware that I purchased.

I have the Enermax noise taker but I think if you look the Antec Earthwatts is recommended or something with low ripple.
RE: current cMP hardware recommendation question, posted on August 4, 2009 at 20:34:31
Frodan
Audiophile

Posts: 43
Location: Montreal
Joined: May 24, 2008
 If you go to the cPlay thread here you'll see that the hardware has changed a lot. We use a Gigabyte motherboard and a more powerful cpu.

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/3/31286.html

Daniel Gauthier
Montreal Canada

Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L, E7200, 1 gig HyperX LL Memory stick, Antec SLP-450WR PSU, WinXP sp2 on Compact Flash Drive, Juli@ Analog Out direct to Electrocompaniet Ampliwire II Amplifier, Apogée Convergence Speakers
Questions about EAC and a touch screen monitor, posted on August 2, 2009 at 13:14:38
Nikola
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: So.California
Joined: January 20, 2005
 Hi guys,
I have two questions that probably have been answered already, I did my best to search the forum but I am not very computer hardware literate and might have missed them... Apologies please, will appreciate a link to get me to some reading.

Now about EAC - is there a full description on how to make the most accurate rips of audio CDs? I prefer .wav format, FLAC is probably as good but somehow I feel more comfortable to start with the wavs and later experiment with FLAC.

Second question - I found a 12" touch screen monitor for a reasonable price but the requirements are that I have a PCI slot and a COMM port. As far as I understand the monitor has its PCI video card integrated. So is it possible to use it with the cMP?I will find a way to make it work if it is not contradicting with the principles of the cMP hardware. If it is too hard I will just skip it and go for a regular LCD monitor. I am not sure if it needs to have a USB output or just a VGA connector so a word about it will be much much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

RE: Questions about EAC and a touch screen monitor, posted on August 2, 2009 at 16:50:37
Frodan
Audiophile

Posts: 43
Location: Montreal
Joined: May 24, 2008
 This is a pretty good site to get the best settings for EAC: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=EAC_Drive_Configuration

I would recommend you don't add a PCI card to your player, as it will affect the audio coming from your sound card, unles you are using a USB or PCI-E based sound card. There are other touch screen monitors out there that work on a standard VGA port. They also use a USB port to do the touch screen instead of a comm port, which is preferable as we wish to disable as much of the legacy hardware we can get away with.

Daniel Gauthier
Montreal Canada

Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L, E7200, 1 gig HyperX LL Memory stick, Antec SLP-450WR PSU, WinXP sp2 on Compact Flash Drive, Juli@ Analog Out direct to Electrocompaniet Ampliwire II Amplifier, Apogée Convergence Speakers
RE: Questions about EAC and a touch screen monitor, posted on August 3, 2009 at 03:18:58
Nikola
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: So.California
Joined: January 20, 2005
 Many thanks, that was exactly what I was looking for :)

While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 22, 2009 at 10:56:42
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ...instead of numeric data processor under IRQ. Everything seems to work (cmp,cplay, loading new files into hd from fd etc) except when I left click on the mouse to index to next track.This does not work. Now
I can definitely live with this but I fear there may be other things that may not work. So should I just leave it as is or try to fix it? BTW it shows up in Device Mgr under IDE ATA.ATAPI controllers but not under IRQ.

RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 28, 2009 at 12:41:42
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 The right click on mouse functionality (to index a track) was restored when I put cicsremote back in the cmp folder. I have been searching the internet and Microsoft Knowledge Base to find an answer and have concluded the following:

--it is probably my cd drive that was unistalled but I don't know how to check this. Any ideas?

--the recommended way to reinstall drivers is to uninstall drivers in Device Mgr then reboot twice. This did not work for me,

-- the last method given in the Microsoft knowledge Base is to go in the Registry and reset some values. Has anybody else here tried this?


I appreciate any feedback. I don't have any trouble running cplay/cmp and no trouble loading in new wav files from a flash drive but would like to get primary ide channel back up and running.

RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 29, 2009 at 02:24:29
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 In BIOS - Integrated Peripherals, is "On Chip Primary PCI IDE" Enabled? Or Secondary?

RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 29, 2009 at 05:17:29
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 It is Enabled.

RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 29, 2009 at 08:30:15
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 OK, I looked back to your earlier posts and you said the Primary IDE Channel shows up in device manager, just without IRQ. It's enabled but you can't use your DVD drive, is that the problem? Check Primary IDE Channel properties to see if the drivers are there and working, then check the resources tab (in properties box) to see if there's an IRQ assigned.

Also it may be that the IDE controller is disabled by BIOS - Integrated Peripherals "On-Chip SATA Mode" being set to non-combined. Try changing to "Combined" and see if that alters anything.

RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 29, 2009 at 09:32:41
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 " OK, I looked back to your earlier posts and you said the Primary IDE Channel shows up in device manager, just without IRQ."

correct

"Is enabled but you can't use your DVD drive, is that the problem?"

I can't tell. I put a cd in the drive and it seems to rotate but nothing happens but I don't get an error message.


"Check Primary IDE Channel properties to see if the drivers are there and working, then check the resources tab (in properties box) to see if there's an IRQ assigned."

Checked propperties and it says device working properly. No irq assigned. Under Advanced Settings it says Not Applicable under Current Transfer mode for device 0 and 1.

"Also it may be that the IDE controller is disabled by BIOS - Integrated Peripherals "On-Chip SATA Mode" being set to non-combined. Try changing to "Combined" and see if that alters anything."

Did not change anything
RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 29, 2009 at 14:29:59
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 You might want to try one more thing before taking the leap to reinstalling chipset drivers (I wouldn't do that without leaving minlogon). Your report: "Under Advanced Settings it says Not Applicable under Current Transfer mode for device 0 and 1." suggests that you might try to get the transfer mode settings to DMA (I'm assuming DMA controller is enabled) Here's a link to the subject that suggests how you might do it: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/check-your-transfer-mode-to-boost-computer-speed/ Hope you get it sorted out one way or another.

RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 29, 2009 at 16:35:27
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Yes I already found that link, tried it, didn't work. Also unistalling the driver while On-Chip SATA Mode setvto Combined/rebooting did not work.
RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 30, 2009 at 02:46:32
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 cics has said that we should start DCOM,COM+ Event,COM+ System, Event Log, and WMI before installing software - I would try this in conjunction with driver installations you are attempting. Also, when I am not sure about the effect of minlogon on system changes, or have an unexplained problem, I get out of minlogon to sort it out, that's why I mentioned it before.

The driver for Primary IDE Channel is atapi.sys, which I think is from the Windows driver cache, and probably won't be renewed from the chipset driver reinstall, but you would be hoping to trigger a reorganization that solves your problem, so still worth a try.

I am hoping to learn something new from this puzzle, so would prefer to try specific changes first. I use a SATA DVD drive so can't try for myself. So if you don't mind here goes again:
1. The services (above) running and try what you've already tried before.
2. Check your physical DVD drive connections - to IDE 0 or 1, and master/slave setting
3. With On-Chip SATA mode set to Combined, you can check and reset PATA IDE to the correct channel if necessary.
4. You could try the On-Chip SATA mode set to AUTO

RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 30, 2009 at 05:00:45
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I tried this , within minlogon, and nothing changed. What puzzles me is that I have a sata dvd drive as well but I think you assumed I had an ide drive. What does this mean?

Ok I have the properties of one of my 2 ide channels showing not applicable for current transfer mode. I assumed it was my dvd drive because the hd works ok (boots up, plays cplay, allows tranfer of new music into hd from fd). How do I definitively tell which one is 'not applicable'?

RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 30, 2009 at 06:46:20
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 A veritable wild goose chase. The whole idea of the Combined setting was to try to allow the computer to manipulate the IDE device, which turns out to be a SATA drive! LMAO!

Can you install the DVD drive in another computer and see if it works, or perhaps install a different DVD drive in your computer. If the suspect drive can be shown to work elsewhere, the search for a culprit starts again.

RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 30, 2009 at 06:55:29
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I know the drive works(its brand new)and it just stopped working when I deleted my primary ide channel by accident. I found this on a google search

OR... IF THAT DOESN'T WORK TRY THIS RegEdit Option:

Following is the mechanism that has worked for me, please try it at your own risk, it involves making changes to the registry:

Open RegEdit
Find the following KEY:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\
Class\{4D36E96A-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}\000x
The last four digits will be 0000, 0001, 0002, 0003, and so on.
Under each key, delete all occurences of the following values:
MasterIdDataChecksum
SlaveIdDataChecksum
Reboot the computer. Windows will now redetect DMA settings.


Does it make sense to try this? One of my checksum keys does have a value. I didn't delete w/o some assurance this will cause no damage.

RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 30, 2009 at 07:19:32
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 This is getting more bizarre. I checked the registry values for checksum keys and there was one set to a non zero value but it was for the secondary primary channel (not primary) so I checked within control panel for properties of my secondary ide channel and indeed device 1 for the secondary channel now shows not applicable for current transfer mode (so I guess I am getting worse). Primary Ide Channel properties still shows not applicable for both device 0 and 1. All I did different was shut sys down/pull dvd sata cable from mobo/reboot/shut down and reset cable/ reboot in an effort to trey to get dvd device recognized by system.

I put O Chip Sata mode back to non combined..., posted on July 30, 2009 at 07:50:42
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ..and now Primary IDE Channel is back up showing DMA ultra 5 as Current Transfer Mode for one device (not other device though). So now I am making progress. Also Secondary IDE Channel shows DMA ultra 5 as Current Transfer Mode for one device(not other device though).

I guess I leave it alone for awhile and NOT UNINSTALL PRIMARY (OR SECONDARY IDE CHANNEL) AGAIN.

Sometimes I think Fmak is right, this stuff is very unpredictable.

RE: I put O Chip Sata mode back to non combined..., posted on July 30, 2009 at 11:46:18
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 Well done! The old turn-it-off-and-on-again works again! You just needed to tickle the Microsoft dragon in the right place. I've had this with soundcards, where physically removing and replacing seems to wake up the drivers - perhaps an engineer can explain this phenomenon.

RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 30, 2009 at 05:19:48
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I tried one more thing--disconnected cable from dvd to mobo, rebooted and nothing changed but now under 'My Computer' I don't show the dvd player, whereas before it did show. So I guess that confirms that indeed the dvd plasyer is not working.

RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 29, 2009 at 11:18:24
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 With setting still on Combined, try the driver uninstall and reboot routine that you did before. Apart from that, I'm out of suggestions.

RE: While booting up I accidentally uninstalled my primary ide channel..., posted on July 29, 2009 at 13:36:34
Frodan
Audiophile

Posts: 43
Location: Montreal
Joined: May 24, 2008
 Try to install the Intel drivers from the motherboard CD. You will probably have to redo a lot of the windows optimizations over after that.


Daniel Gauthier
Montreal Canada

Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L, E7200, 1 gig HyperX LL Memory stick, Antec SLP-450WR PSU, WinXP sp2 on Compact Flash Drive, Juli@ Analog Out direct to Electrocompaniet Ampliwire II Amplifier, Apogée Convergence Speakers
A headless CMP box works great except for one thing..., posted on July 20, 2009 at 06:40:47
aljordan
Audiophile

Posts: 819
Location: Southern Maine
Joined: November 4, 2003
 Hi,

I have my headless CMP machine booting into CMP mode with CPlay fully controlled by the network version of my CPlayList Editor application. I have no need for VNC server except for one issue. My front panel power button shuts down windows and the computer when booted into XP mode, however it does not work in CMP mode. This leaves me with no way to shut off the computer. Any suggestions?

Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 19, 2009 at 09:01:53
aljordan
Audiophile

Posts: 819
Location: Southern Maine
Joined: November 4, 2003
 Hi,

I finally put together a CMP-like machine the other day. I used hardware that I had on hand; decent stuff but not the same as recommended here. I used an Asus P5W DH Deluxe motherboard, an Intel E6600 CPU, Corsair RAM, Corsair 520HX power supply, and a good case. The machine has no internal discs and uses a separately powered external SATA drive to hold the operating systems. I actually put three different operating systems on this disc so that I could eventually compare CMP on XP to optimized Linux and Vista configurations. There is also a partition for another operating system that is not yet being used.

I followed all of the OS recommendations except I didn't shutdown networking because my music library lives elsewhere on the network. (I know, string me up and tar and feather me, but for the life of me I can't figure out why running networking would be worse than running extra local discs, a monitor, a keyboard, and a wireless mouse.) I followed bios recommendations where I could find similarities with the bios on my motherboard.

I am using the box headless - no monitor, mouse, nor keyboard, which brings up a slight issue I'll explain later. I have two different DAC solutions I am trying with it, an internal Lynx 2B via the Lynx drivers, and a Wavelength Cosecant v3 USB DAC via ASIO4All. I put the Lynx card in so I could try upsampling, but after a brief comparison I am listening mostly via the USB DAC.

I am trying to get the headless system to not need to run VNC server. I can do this because I made a network capable version of my CPlayListEditor program. I can run a server instance on the CMP box, and run a client version on any other computer in the house. The client version gets the libraries from the server, and can build playlists from those libraries, and then sends the playlists to the instance running on the CMP box which then launches CPlay with the playlist loaded. I am able to control CPlay on the CMP box via the network client of my program because I added pause, next and previous buttons to my application, which sends messages to the server instance which then sends the command on to CPlay.

While I haven't yet directly compared this solution to my battery Fit-PC Slim running an optimized version of Linux, I can say that I am thus far very impressed with the sound quality. It is the best I've achieved out of a full sized PC.

So, here are my issues and questions.

1) The "Don't use welcome screen" recommendation keeps me from being totally headless and running VNC server because it forces a password dialog box on boot-up. I only have one account on this machine, so leaving 'use welcome screen' enabled allows the computer to boot up directly into that account without displaying the welcome screen. I see a couple of ways around it but don't know enough about CMP to make an informed decision:

* I could boot directly into XP mode with the welcome screen enabled, then automatically start my CPlaylist Editor application and automatically start CMP mode. If I start CMP mode after boot-up with welcome screen enabled, will there still be the lockup problem?

This brings up two other questions...
- Is there any in CMP mode, other than behavioral differences, when CMP mode is started from XP mode as compared to when CMP mode is booted into directly? I am only interested in technical differences that might affect sound quality.

- When already in CMP mode, is there any difference in threading when the CMP explorer (or whatever its called) starts CPlay as compared to my application starting CPlay, or will CPlay start optimized to the CMP settings no matter how it is started when in CMP mode?

* My second option would be to boot directly into CMP mode, but I would need a way to do this that would not bring up the password dialog box when the welcome screen is disabled. Is there any manner to do this? This would also require a way to automatically start my CPlayList Editor application within CMP mode. Is there some batch file that runs automatically when CMP mode is started that I could edit to start my application?

Thanks in advance for any information related to these questions.

Alan

RE: Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 19, 2009 at 11:03:14
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Ethernet connection has OS and device overheads but your headless setup will give benefits - its a tradeoff. cPlay will RAM load data before playback so Network streaming is not an issue.

  1. Welcome Screen.
    You should implement the changes. This will force a password dialog. Minlogon optimisation removes this dialog (as you now logon as System Default). Benefits of Minlogon are huge and yes it will work with Networking enabled. Seger has a easier approach which you should look into.

  2. cMP Mode.
    This results in least OS bloat and is the best way to run cPlay (Optimise must be "Critical"). With your Lynx, you can also Suspend both lsass and svchost. cMP optimises use of CPU Cores. Running from Explore is a bad idea (this locks all threads to CPU0 and doesn't adjust priority).

  3. Way Forward.
    Start directly into cMP Mode (no logon/password dialog with Minlogon). In cMP, set "Process Explorer" or "Task Manager" as startup but instead run your Network app (CPlayList Editor?). See cicsMemoryPlayer.pth file for details. If CPlayList Editor can trigger starting cPlay by cMP then you have gained all benefits. Also remove cicsRemote.exe from cMP installation folder (this prevents cMP from running it).


Good start!

RE: Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 20, 2009 at 10:09:49
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 If I remove cicsRemote.exe from the cMP installation folder will this help sonically? Also I don't use touch screen either is it useful to remove this as well?

RE: Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 21, 2009 at 10:39:58
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 cicsRemote.exe provides the remote automation using a wireless mouse. If you remove this, you won't have remote control. However, it won't matter if you're not using a mouse, i.e. you can remove it. I tested this a long while back and found no differences. Its worth testing again - let us know.

There's nothing to remove if you don't have a touch screen.

RE: Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 22, 2009 at 05:50:05
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I tried this (eliminating cicsRemote.exe from cmp folder) and although there is one less process in task manager it does not sound different to me after one day of listening.

RE: Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 19, 2009 at 13:59:51
aljordan
Audiophile

Posts: 819
Location: Southern Maine
Joined: November 4, 2003
 Hi cics,

Seger's instructions worked well regarding removing the password prompt. I am running XP SP3. Is there a link which describes the benefits of using minlogon? If not, what are the benefits?

I can now boot directly into CMP critical mode, with CPlayListEditor starting automatically as you have suggested, through editing the cicsMemoryPlayer.pth file and setting startup to Process Explorer. Interestingly, the only manner I could get CPlayListEditor to start at startup was to create a batch file to start it. Referencing the command directly in cicsMemoryPlayer.pth doesn't work. I also tried hiding the command prompt that comes up from the batch file by using #H, but that keeps the batch file from being executed. Also, the cicsMemoryPlayer.pth file that came with the CMP software doesn't have a TaskManager entry in it. Do I have the correct version of the software?

Thanks very much. Now I can use a headless CMP without running any sort of VNC server. I need to make a couple more tweaks to the software (add phase, fast forward and rewind buttons), and make the usability a little more self explanatory. After that I'll make it available if anyone else cares about a headless CMP.

Alan

RE: Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 20, 2009 at 07:21:29
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Minlogon implementation for SP3 is a problem - haven't seen one yet. Improvements are very significant and I would suggest installing SP2 on your spare partition. Minlogon benefits:

"Windows security overheads is reduced significantly and there's no logon prompt at startup☺ Boot time is faster. Sound improves as Windows footprint reduces (less overheads). Windows operates using '.Default' user. All user settings (Desktop, Appearence, foobar, ?) will need to be redone. It's worth rechecking all optimizations again."


Windows security subsystem causes each device IO to be secure - this includes audio output. Reduction in runtime overheads is significant.

Task Manager entry is not available in .pth file (as cMP internally uses Windows version). Your problem with Process Explorer is a surprise - be sure to use quotes for the program and there are no typos as cMP will not report on an error (something I want to fix in next release). #H/N/H is only applicable to RIPPER, CUE_PLAYER & PREP_PLAYER. I get cPlayListEditor to work without a .bat using the following:

PROCESS_EXPLORER "java" -jar "C:\Program Files\CPlayListEditor\CPlayListEditor.jar"

Power button is not available in cMP Mode. I have a HTPC which I shutdown by just holding the power button for a few seconds. Yes its a hard shutdown - I've been doing this for 1 year+ without any problems.
RE: Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 20, 2009 at 07:53:26
riboge
Audiophile

Posts: 263
Joined: June 25, 2008
 I use minlogon with sp3 running cMP2 without problems on my Lenovo laptop as optimized as possible.

Can you confirm Minlogon implementation steps for SP3 is same for SP2?, posted on July 20, 2009 at 08:32:31
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 That's very good to know.

RE: Can you confirm Minlogon implementation steps for SP3 is same for SP2?, posted on July 20, 2009 at 09:01:15
riboge
Audiophile

Posts: 263
Joined: June 25, 2008
 Yes: boot from second non-cMP drive and substitute minlogon for winlogon all after running the registry change application. Then boot to cMP drive. Done. I suppose making the substitution when booted to safe mode from cMP drive would work just as well.

RE: Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 19, 2009 at 10:13:17
riboge
Audiophile

Posts: 263
Joined: June 25, 2008
 As to one of your questions: You can run cPlay while in cMP mode by selecting "explore" and then starting cPlay from its folder under Program Files. When you do this cPlay is not completely optimized via cMP though it benefits generally from cMP mode.

So, I believe you will need to get your program to get cMP to pass along your selection as it starts cPlay. If you find a way to do this then you could also included a way to have the selection's samplerate determine the playback rate in cPlay to be an even multiple rather than a fixed preselected rate and thus sound its best re this selection. One, but probably not the most efficient, way would be to have a routine that decides to best playback rate then changes the cPlay ini file to specify that rate so that when cMP calls cPlay it will use this amended ini.

RE: Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 19, 2009 at 14:29:41
aljordan
Audiophile

Posts: 819
Location: Southern Maine
Joined: November 4, 2003
 Hi,

Cics seems to suggest that as long as I can boot into CMP mode, have CMP start my playlist editor, and have my playlist editor start CPlay, CPlay should be optimized.

"One, but probably not the most efficient, way would be to have a routine that decides to best playback rate then changes the cPlay ini file to specify that rate so that when cMP calls cPlay it will use this amended ini."

Hey, this is a pretty good idea. The only problem is that there is nothing in my program that keeps someone from building a playlist out of songs with differing sampling rates. Maybe I'll start by trying it as a manner to automatically configure the sampling rate of CPlay based on the sampling rate of the file, as I don't care for upsampling so much. Also, the only time I read sampling rates is when I am reading the embedded tags of FLAC files. I have to see if I can get the sampling rate of WAV files.

Thanks for the idea,
Alan

RE: Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 19, 2009 at 15:07:46
riboge
Audiophile

Posts: 263
Joined: June 25, 2008
 You should be able to get samplerates for WAVs as foobar certainly can and lists it under properties. I just added a column for it that works for WAVs in playlist display using %samplerate%.

You're right that if the playlist lists files with different samplerates, you would probably just get that of the first file entered into cPlay ini, but that is better than nothing since cPlay has a fixed rate in any case, so suboptimal for many of the files either way. This way at least one file will be played the way you want. You can't get cPlay not to upsample unless you are willing to see any files in the playlist at greater than 44.1 downsampled. for an upsampler like me, it is just a matter of selecting 176.4 or 192, whichever is a multiple of the samplerate.

RE: Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 19, 2009 at 15:26:15
aljordan
Audiophile

Posts: 819
Location: Southern Maine
Joined: November 4, 2003
 "You should be able to get samplerates for WAVs as foobar certainly can and lists it under properties. I just added a column for it that works for WAVs in playlist display using %samplerate%"

Foobar is written in C++. My app is written in Java and is using the JAudioTagger library to get tagging information from FLAC and other files that support tags. I don't really want to write my own library to go poking through WAV files if I don't have to. I can find a bunch of supporting libraries in C++, but not much in Java. If I were a C++ programmer I would be writing the player, not the playlist browser.
RE: Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 19, 2009 at 17:03:19
riboge
Audiophile

Posts: 263
Joined: June 25, 2008
 I hadn't realized that. I see now why you are reluctant. All I can do is plead on behalf of the many who use flacs with cPlay that adding the dynamic rate setting to what you are working on would be a much appreciated improvement. Also, perhaps cics or somebody else can suggest a manageable way to obtain samplerates for WAV files as well.

RE: Ive found some decent examples, please tell me..., posted on July 19, 2009 at 17:57:05
aljordan
Audiophile

Posts: 819
Location: Southern Maine
Joined: November 4, 2003
 Ok, I take it that you want the sampling rate info on Recursive Cue Creator, because it already exists for FLAC files in CPlaylist Editor.

I found some examples of Java code that deal with WAV files. I can probably get the sampling rate info but I need to know where this information should be displayed in the CUE file. Prepended to the title?

Alan

RE: Ive found some decent examples, please tell me..., posted on July 19, 2009 at 18:37:47
riboge
Audiophile

Posts: 263
Joined: June 25, 2008
 Well, I most want the play rate to be dynamically set in relation to the files samplerate. Second to that, I would like as simple and short an indication of the samplerate prepended to the title, yes. For me personally, all that's needed is a 1 for 44.1 or 88.2 or 176.4 and a 2 for 48, 96 or 192--to keep it as short as possible since displaying the title is already given too little an extent in cPlay's display. Others may want it to be more specific, so the first two numbers of the samplerate could be prepended.

RE: Ive found some decent examples, please tell me..., posted on July 19, 2009 at 19:02:48
aljordan
Audiophile

Posts: 819
Location: Southern Maine
Joined: November 4, 2003
 Riboge wrote:

"Well, I most want the play rate to be dynamically set in relation to the files samplerate. Second to that, I would like as simple and short an indication of the samplerate prepended to the title, yes. For me personally, all that's needed is a 1 for 44.1 or 88.2 or 176.4 and a 2 for 48, 96 or 192--to keep it as short as possible since displaying the title is already given too little an extent in cPlay's display. Others may want it to be more specific, so the first two numbers of the samplerate could be prepended."

Last time we discussed this I thought you wanted sample rate for the cue sheets generated with Recursive Cue Creator. Your first sentence seems to be referring to CPlayList Editor. Your remaining sentences seem to refer to Recursive Cue Creator. Do I understand you correctly?

I don't think putting a 1 or a 2 in the cue sheet title is a universally effective manner of showing the sampling rate for those who want it. If I allow an option to prepend the sampling rate, I would probably take the sampling rate, divide it by 1000, and prepending the result to the cue sheet title. Would that be acceptable?

Regarding CPlayList Editor, it can already show sample rate in the track list for FLAC files, and you can name the resulting playlists anything you want, so you can already effectively add the sampling rate to the playlist title. However, it would make sense to update the ini file before launching CPlay to dynamically set the sampling rate. I'll try that when I have some time to fiddle with it.

Alan

RE: Ive found some decent examples, please tell me..., posted on July 19, 2009 at 20:44:42
riboge
Audiophile

Posts: 263
Joined: June 25, 2008
 If the playlist creator can bring dynamic rate setting about there is less need for the rate to be prepended in the cuesheet creator. In the meantime, yes prepend the samplerate with cuesheet creator. I was just trying to shorten the prepend from the 5 characters of such as 176.4 to something abbreviated to one or two characters, but if you feel it has to be the full monty, okay.

RE: Finally built a CMP (of sorts). Long post with some questions., posted on July 19, 2009 at 09:36:42
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 Automatic Logon
1. Run: control userpasswords2
2. Highlight your user name in the list
3. Clear the "Users must enter a user name and password to use this computer" check box, and then click Apply.
4. In the Automatically Log On window do not type a password. Click OK.
5. Click OK to close the User Accounts window.
6. Restart Computer.

Very interested in your upcoming comparisons.

RE: Thanks Seger, posted on July 19, 2009 at 12:12:46
aljordan
Audiophile

Posts: 819
Location: Southern Maine
Joined: November 4, 2003
 Hi Seger,

Thanks, this works great. It may be a bit before I get around to comparisons because I'll want to listen to this long enough to get to a feel for it, but I'll let you as they happen.

Alan

RE: Thanks Seger, posted on July 20, 2009 at 09:26:29
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 Autologon is great while you get everything set up, and do various optimizations. When everything is tested and running well, do minlogon last of all. Here's the link to the short way - (the safe mode option is best) http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=40869&highlight=Easy+Minlogon&r=

Be careful, a mistake will tie Windows in a knot. Good thing to have multiple systems on the computer - you can correct most mistakes from one of the functioning systems.

And yes, it should be fine with SP3 - I have a couple of SP3 systems running minlogon.

cPlay -alternative to ASIO output ?, posted on July 8, 2009 at 01:36:45
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
 is there anyway that cPlay can output kernel streaming or output in any alternative mode?

in my current setup, cPlay is connected to JACK audio which forwards the signal to thuneau´s allocator and then via ASIO to the lynx two B soundcard.
this constellation works fine, but unfortunately there is no way to activate the JACK when running cMP.

any ideas are highly appreciated !

Jack ASIO driver must be used in your x-over setup, posted on July 8, 2009 at 08:34:43
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Challenge is getting Jack and Allocator running in cMP. For now keep both lsass and svchost suspends to "No".

After cMP starts, you'll need to manually start Jack and Allocator before cPlay. Post your .bat or shell scripts that you're currently using - this will give me an idea of how to get it working in cMP.

RE: Jack ASIO driver must be used in your x-over setup, posted on July 8, 2009 at 16:55:55
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
 hey cics

thanks very much for your reply.
you´re absolutely right : it is a challenge to get that jack / allocator thing working in cMP !
the main issue is is that jack needs a signal from cPlay to make the connection, otherwise it cannot "see" it.

the .bat file that connects it looks like this (ignore the german command typo) :

Option Explicit
Dim WshShell
Set WshShell = WScript.CreateObject("WScript.Shell")



WshShell.Run """C:\Programme\Jack v1.90\jackstart""",1,False

WScript.Sleep 5000

WshShell.Run """C:\Programme\cics Play\cicsPlay.exe"" C:\Dokumente und Einstellungen\ego\Eigene Dateien\adele - 19.cue",1,False

WScript.Sleep 1000

WshShell.Run """C:\Dokumente und Einstellungen\ego\Desktop\Allocator1.0.15\Allocator.exe""",1,False

WScript.Sleep 1000

WshShell.Run """C:\Programme\Jack v1.90\Connect""",1,False

RE: Jack ASIO driver must be used in your x-over setup, posted on July 8, 2009 at 19:12:33
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Try the following:

Create "jack.bat" file in your c:\ root drive (c:\jack.bat) and copy the following commands into it:


@echo off
start /realtime c:\progra~1\jackv1~1.90\jackstart
ping -n 6 127.0.0.1 > nul
start /realtime c:\progra~1\cicspl~1\cicsPlay.exe %1
ping -n 2 127.0.0.1 > nul
start /realtime c:\dokume~1\desktop\alloca~1.15\Allocator.exe
ping -n 2 127.0.0.1 > nul
start /b /realtime C:\progra~1\jackv1~1.90\connect


The "ping" command emulates sleep. I'm guessing the dos short name that is used in your pc. To test this works, from explorer, right-click on a cue sheet and select "open with" where you can then select "c:\jack.bat". If shortnames are not correct, in a command prompt, use "dir /x" command to list the files/folders together with shortnames which you can use to edit above.

Change CUE_PLAYER directive in "cicsMemoryPlayer.pth" as follows:

CUE_PLAYER #N "c:\jack.bat" %C

Note: if you change #N with #H the command window is hidden.

Test in cMP as follows:

  1. Set lsass and svchost to suspend "No"
  2. Set Optimise to "Player"
  3. Play any cue sheet
  4. To play another, you must manually stop & exit Jack and Allocater before staring next selection (we can automate this later)
I have very good power cord on my cmp2 pc...but..., posted on July 7, 2009 at 09:10:52
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ...I have a separate linear power supply on my cpu (p4), I have hd's on gd's and my juli@ card digital ps on batteries. Since I am running digital out to my Benchmark what is drawing power on my pc from my antec? If nothing substantive I will move my 'good power cord' onto my cpu linear ps.

BTW I put some black goo-ey damping compound on my juli@ card clock chip---nice sq improvement. Thanks to gstew for this one.

Passive cooling for E7300, posted on July 7, 2009 at 08:25:06
DeDe
 Could I solicit your thoughts and experience in connection with passive cooling for the E7300 CPU on a Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L mother board. The Thermalright SI-128 originally suggested by Cics is discontinued. I'd welcome some recommendations for other passive coolers which have been found to work okay.

RE: Passive cooling for E7300, posted on July 8, 2009 at 11:17:04
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Joined: September 21, 2001
 I recently bought the SI-128 here.

Greg in Mississippi

RE: Passive cooling for E7300, posted on July 7, 2009 at 14:24:10
Frodan
Audiophile

Posts: 43
Location: Montreal
Joined: May 24, 2008
 I use the SilverStone Nitrogon cooler without the fan with an E7200 cpu and it works great.
Daniel Gauthier
Montreal Canada

Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L, E7200, 1 gig HyperX LL Memory stick, Antec SLP-450WR PSU, WinXP sp2 on Compact Flash Drive, Juli@ Analog Out direct to Electrocompaniet Ampliwire II Amplifier, Apogée Convergence Speakers
RE: Passive cooling for E7300, posted on July 8, 2009 at 03:23:32
nagual19
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Location: Vienna
Joined: July 4, 2003
 I use the Thermalright AXP-140 , it seems that it is the successor to the Thermalright SI-128... It is recommended for HTPC use by Thermalright itself. I have E7300 @ 1.050Mhz and with 0,9 Voltage and have temps @ 40°Celsius

Look here
http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_page/product_page/cpu/axp140/product_cpu_axp140.html

Switched Mode PSU, posted on July 6, 2009 at 21:35:35
Mr Underhill
Audiophile

Posts: 109
Location: Sarf London
Joined: May 17, 2006
 Many HiFi companies have an aversion to SMPS, stating that they adversely effect the produced sound quality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply

Over the last couple of years a number have started producing components, notably Naim, having claimed to have 'solved' inherent issues. I thought I'd do a bit of digging and found:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-100095.html

One poster claims that a standard mobo will contain four built in SMPS - which appears to make this line of enquiry moot.

Any other thoughts / experiences?

M

read docs, read here. nt, posted on July 7, 2009 at 03:52:05
steppe
Audiophile

Posts: 239
Joined: September 28, 2006
 *

The M Word, posted on July 6, 2009 at 21:18:12
Mr Underhill
Audiophile

Posts: 109
Location: Sarf London
Joined: May 17, 2006
 Dear Cics,

Looking up the cost of the HD160XT I found it was 2/3rds of the way to a Mac-Mini, and felt it would be daft to not at least seriously consider it.

I posted threads on two different sites:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2067843&tstart=15

and

http://www.123macmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23790

To which I got a total number of replies of 0, nice round number.

Maybe folks who buy the MM just don't want to hack it.

This machine does bundle a lot of functionality into a small box. Did / have you considered it? Thoughts?

Thx,

M

RE: The M Word, posted on July 7, 2009 at 17:46:07
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Windows continues to dominate the market and will yield excellent results if setup correctly. If one compares Windows to Mac straight out of the box, Mac is likely to give better results. Same applies to Linux.

NT kernel as used in XP is excellent but unfortunately the amazing amount of bloat added requires attention. Fortunately this can be corrected as we do here (and more). The level of changes and with cMP, the need for a real time OS is removed.

A key disadvantage to Mac is the hardware platform - this is not as flexible, e.g. BIOS. There's a workaround to this by using Hackintosh.

Current Specs, posted on June 29, 2009 at 14:07:15
Mr Underhill
Audiophile

Posts: 109
Location: Sarf London
Joined: May 17, 2006
 Hi cics,

I'm going to build one of your players. I've downloaded the current docs, which were last updated in 2007.

I found one update thread above.

Could you confirm what current MOBO & CPU you rec?
Still 1GB ram in slot 1?
Still Juli@ Sound card?

Thx,

M

RE: Current Specs, posted on June 30, 2009 at 11:26:44
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
  1. cMP 2 PDF's (1.4MB & 2.4MB). Be sure to hit "show all"
  2. The Art of building Computer Transports Version 0.3 Single PDF (4.2MB)
  3. Latest updates & hardware
  4. Latest BIOS Refinements to 3 above.


(and yes, a new document is long overdue given all the changes...)

You can use any soundcard. Juli@ is simple to use and offers excellent value. A fully modded Juli@ gets even better!

Use smallest possible RAM - I use a single 256MB Kingston Valueram.

Thx, posted on June 30, 2009 at 12:33:40
Mr Underhill
Audiophile

Posts: 109
Location: Sarf London
Joined: May 17, 2006
 Dear Cics,

Thx, not only for this reply but your ongoing dedication.

I am using a Meridian 596 > Benchmark DAC1, as the Meridian will output 9624, but I'm convinced that it is not passing out the best possible signal - so time to build your transport.

M

Search functions in cMP (cross posting from cPlay thread), posted on June 24, 2009 at 15:23:44
Frodan
Audiophile

Posts: 43
Location: Montreal
Joined: May 24, 2008
 In Reply to: RE: SONGWRITER must be used for "Composer" function in cMP posted by cics on June 19, 2009 at 01:54:17

I have a few suggestions on how to implement the songwriter tag in cMP2. I would like other cMP users to add their comments to this post as well. I also have slightly modified the suggestion and edited the original post as well.

- 1. Have an ini setting to turn it on or off, Songwriter=True.

- 2. If it's on, you could have 4 buttons along the bottom for searching:

IF Songwriter=.F.
- Show buttons as they are now.

ELSE Songwriter=.T.
- IF button = GENRE --> After selecting a GENRE offers a list by
- - SONGWRITER, after selecting a SONGWRITER, offers a list by TITLE,
- - then offers a list by PERFORMER.

- ELSE IF button = TITLE --> After selecting a TITLE, offers a list by
- - SONGWRITER, after selecting a SONGWRITER, then offers a list by
- - PERFORMER.

- ELSE IF button = SONGWRITER --> After selecting a SONGWRITER, offers a
- - list by TITLE, after selecting a TITLE, offers a list by PERFORMER.

- ELSE IF button = PERFORMER --> After selecting a PERFORMER, offers a
- - list by SONGWRITER, after selecting a SONGWRITER, offers a list by
- - TITLE.
- ENDIF
ENDIF

BTW I love the fact that with a keyboard one can type the first few letters of a search and cMP goes directly to the first entry that starts with those letters. It makes things a little easier when navigating though a collection of 1000 titles!


Daniel Gauthier
Montreal Canada

Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L, E7200, 1 gig HyperX LL Memory stick, Antec SLP-450WR PSU, WinXP sp2 on Compact Flash Drive, Juli@ Analog Out direct to Electrocompaniet Ampliwire II Amplifier, Apogée Convergence Speakers
Single most beneficial tweak on cmp hardware..., posted on June 24, 2009 at 03:08:54
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ...is lithium ion phosphate iron batteries (LiFePO4 @3.3 v) directly soldered via wires onto juli@ sound card. Batteries are not inexpensive (about $15 each) and can be purchased from Tenergy. Charger was about $12. But the immediate effect was one of added clarity top to bottom, remarkably grain free. Very strong mids and bass. Soundstage got deeper, small details were very precisely revealed etc etc

Alfred (sonics) and hanssatink were the pioneers of this mod. I believe bertel and sondale also use batteries to power the juli@ digital power supply. All these inmates have posted on this mod here in pcaudio. Pls do a search on their names to get more technical info.


But for me @ the cost of about $50 (including shipping from California) this mod is easily the most bang for the buck I have done to cmp hw. To give you some perspective, to me, its equivalent to minlogon plus the effects of a linear power supply on the cpu plus maybe a bit more. It is that good. I really value clarity in the high freqencies and wow do the batteries give it to you in abundance w/o being hard or edgy. At first it almost seems as if you lose upper frequency extension until the real thing comes along---then its OMG. Also I placed my battery tray directly on the rug covered concrete floor and initially the sound was ill defined and boomy until I isolated the battery tray throgh normal audiophile methods then it was a whole new ball game. Yes I have wires all over the place, yes it is cumbersome to keep the batteries charged to 3.2-3.4 volts---all this is a pia but it is definitely worth it.

Please indications for AMD CPU undervolting, posted on June 21, 2009 at 23:12:00
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 119
Joined: December 18, 2008
 I have an AMD Phenom X3 8650 CPU with an Asus M3A78-T Deluxe motherboard.
Please could someone with an AMP CPU give me some indication with real numbers for CPU speed, FSB and undervolting.
Thanks a lot

RE: Please indications for AMD CPU undervolting, posted on June 27, 2009 at 14:55:21
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 bib,

I am going by memory, but I had an AMD, and it ended up around 800-900mhz and around say .8 volts or so, which on mine was the lowest settings I could get from the ASUS board.
RE: Please indications for AMD CPU undervolting, posted on July 4, 2009 at 01:05:26
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 119
Joined: December 18, 2008
 Thanks DR.

baring in mind that I use the PC for HT as well, for CPU I went down to 960MHz (6x160) at 0.95 voltage. Voltage could go lower - it was 0.9 but I got a BSOD fiddling around around with multi-ch playback. I still need to "sort out" my 2 surr-ch.

RE: Please indications for AMD CPU undervolting, posted on June 22, 2009 at 05:37:39
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I think the idea is to underclock, undervolt as much as possible (only limiting factor being stability of operation/ability to boot up) to lower the stress/rfi on your system. I don't know if anyone has come up with stable values for an Amd based system. You could be he first. My advice is to lower each in small increments until you reach issues of instability or cold boot.

God is in the details..., posted on June 20, 2009 at 20:54:57
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Joined: September 21, 2001
 I was reminded of that tonight. I was moving my gear around to make room for one of my turntable setups, none of which have been run for several years.

Most of the work was in re-cabling / re-shelving my DVD & VHS players (yah, my system is also a sorta AV setup... But most of the time, the AV stuff is all unplugged and it mostly acts as a very hair-shirt stereo).

But I did move the cMP2 around a bit while doing the other stuff. This takes some care as my harddrive and all my linear supplies are just sitting in the case (with some care to control vibrations), but not secured.

I put it all back together (after spending some time watching/listening to couple of movies through both the DVD and VHS players... They sound pretty good when the audio output is going directly through that hair-shirt stereo setup!). And it didn't sound right... Bright, splattery, conjusted, bass didn't flow. Since I moved it around, likely stuff shifted inside. I open it up and the HDD is no longer on it's damper feet (I have the drive mounted to a block of bamboo, wrapped in ERS cloth, sitting on three Herbie's feet, and weighed down with a VPI brick-substitute made from an old laminated transformer core). I put it back in as it should be, fire it up, and the sound is back to snuff.

I'm debating moving the drive outside the case if I can come up with a good mounting setup.

I'm also breaking in a couple of Hammond chokes in the AC for the dirty supplies... They're about a week into the break-in, I hear that they'll continue to change for at least another week, but I immediately heard some improvements in background blackness and bass detailing when I put them in and that has improved with break-in time. Remember, these are the dirty supplies... HDD, LCD, and the one active USB port for the mouse and touchscreen! They ARE serious linear supplies (oversized transformers & regulators, good diodes and caps, and 47,000uf caps on the raw DC) going through a 16'-long Ryland's-inspired braided extension cord to a separate AC circuit in my house as specified by cics. Shouldn't make much of a difference, huh? But it does and improving the AC filtering took it up another notch.

Some people want to use their computer to play music. They install some music software, maybe network it to other systems in their house, surf the net on it, run antivirus, let their kids use it for playing games, etc. They get one level of sound quality from this.

Other people want to setup a computer to play music. They build up a cMP2 or setup one of the many computer music playback configurations, PC, MAC, or Linex, XP, Vista, or Windows 7, whatever. They may select specific software and hardware, spend some time configuring the system to optimize it a bit, and likely use it only for music playback. They get a higher level of sound quality.

And a few people want to use a computer as component in a digital playback system. Here, they start to do the things that one would do to build a high-end CDP/DAC combo... Vibration control, optimized power supplies, radical system configuring, selected hardware, paying attention to connecting cabling, etc. I hear a lot of rewards in going this way... I won't be able to do a comparison between my cMP2 and my vinyl setup for a few more weeks, but my cMP2 is definitively besting all of my previous digital playback setups in every way. Yah, it's really nice to have my entire CD library on a harddrive and accessable with a few clicks of a mouse, but it's the sound quality that makes it really worthwhile.

And at this level, virtually everything matters. God is in the details!

Lotsa fun!

Greg in Mississippi
Greatness peeking through..., posted on June 27, 2009 at 14:02:52
GStew
 If you haven't yet, read Theob's post about the impact converting the 3.3v on his Juli@ to battery made on his sound quality. Remember, in his setup, this is just powering the chips that receive the digital signal from the processor via the PCI buss and convert it to SPDIF. He says it made the largest impact of any single change he's made to his setup... and my experience with upgrading power supplies has me understand what he's talking about.

If the cMP2 setup with cPlay makes a PC-based digital playback sound good, upgrading the power supplies takes it to another realm entirely. I had a similar experience to Theob's when I powered my Juli@ from independent linear supplies with high-quality regulators... in my setup, only one other upgrade's sonic differences were in that realm of magnitude and that was when I added a linear supply to the P4 and the linear/hybrid supply with the modified PicoPSU to the ATX24.

As I've been listening to my system over the past several days (after putting the GA-G31M-S2L back from the comparison to the ES2L), I am struck by a couple of things:

1. My collection of music has gotten larger. Strange, huh? But recordings that were dogs before sound ok or sometimes pretty good now. Good recordings sound phenomenal. And really good recordings still sound phenomenal. The range of levels of sound quality has shrunk... the poorer ones are smoother, more detailed, more musically satisfying & involving then they ever were with any of my CD setups.Good ones still sound very good and have improved too, but not to the level of magnitude that the poorer ones have improved. So I now have a bunch of recordings that were 'bottom of the pile' that are now interesting both sonically and musically.

2. I'm much more interested in listening to music than fiddling with hardware or software. I have a BUNCH of things lined up to test:

- More stringent comparison between my linear 'dirty' supplies and the original Granite Digital units to determine if one particular dirty unit makes more difference than the others.
- Adding caps on the Granite Digital units to see what difference that makes.
- Comparing my Ryelands-inspired seriously-braided extension cord to the 'dirty supplies' to the cheap store-bought unit I used before to better access the differences.
- Assessing the impact of the now-broken-in choke filters on the 'dirty supplies' AC and if the inline filter I used before still makes a worthwhile difference with the chokes.
- Further motherboard comparisons... GA-G31M-S2L vs GA-G31M-ES2L vs GA-EG45M-UD2H with additional configuring on the two new boards.
- Further memory comparisons... ValuRAM vs HyperX vs Mushkin.
- cPlay 2.0b27 vs 2.0b26... in my setup, at first listen, I preferred b26 as it gave more PRAT and musical involvement. But I never spent the time to try and optimize the settings on b27.
- SOX. I'm still using SRC and haven't even tried SOX yet.
- Battery on the Juli@ 3.3v line. I did get one of the 3.3v LiFePO4 cells to try here... heck, I have a ton of serious high-current/high-capacity LiPo packs from my model airplane hobby and I really need to try battery power on various rails on this thing. I know good results can be achieved with either battery or AC power... but it'd be nice to reduce the sonic difference I get from the varying quality of the AC line during various times of the day.

Plus I have a bunch of projects lined up around my cMP... Main among them are trying Bertel's switched-over linear supplies using relays and building a custom case. Plus my I2S DAC sounds like it should really be here in the next week or so and I'm getting some different and highly-regarded regulators to try out on the Juli@. Also I want to try comparisons of my custom linear supplies to some of the lab linear supplies others have used... and I'm very interested to hear what hfavandepas finds out about whether the lower-power PicoPSUs do a direct pass-through of the 12v.... this is possibly a good, easy-to-implement improvement.

Some of these will help us understand what's important in a cMP2.... others will help determine what hardware is best to use, especially that some parts are no longer easily available... some have the promise of further catapulting the sound quality of a cMP2 to the another level. I'm a tweak and I should be jumping up to run through all of them!

But right now, I just want to go and listen to my system and discover those recordings that I didn't pay much attention to before because they sounded bad or weren't musically interesting.

Such is the sound of greatness peeking through!

Greg in Mississippi

P.S. Many thanks to all the heros and pioneers in this saga... cics for the concept and all the hard work developing this, Rick Mc for being the pioneer who championed this to me, Ryeland, Bertel, hfavandepas, and Peter Daniel (from the DIYAudio list) for their work in improving the system's power supplies, and abysstw for working out the basic BIOS settings on the GA-EG45M-UD2H. Thanks all, I haven't had this much fun in audio for many, many years.

Which capacity batterie for cMP HTPC, posted on June 20, 2009 at 06:05:23
hanssatink
Audiophile

Posts: 65
Joined: September 13, 2008
 Hi all,

I am rebuilding my PSU for feeding my cMP pc with 12V batterie.
Will post some pictures when i am finished.

I doubt what capacity batterie i should need for listening 4-5 hours before the need of charging.

Should 50ah be enough? Eanyone got any experience with this?
i suppose a gel or traction batterie should be the best choice.

RE: Which capacity batterie for cMP HTPC, posted on June 21, 2009 at 11:58:52
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Hans,

congrats for deciding on batteries! :-)

The proper capacity for listening for 4-5 hours without charging depends I'd say on a number of factors:

- What parts of the PCs power supply are you willing to power with batteries? Only P4, or also P24, or even the "dirty supplies" etc.?

- You write "cMP HTPC" - how close is your system to the "recommended" setup, i.e. what CPU / RAM / PCI cards / software do you run, and which file formats do you use etc.? I assume that the "HT" (=Home Theatre) part in "cMP HTPC" might require additional calculation ontop of a "standard" cMP setup's power consumption.

For a "standard/recommended" cMP setup, you could use two methods of calculation to get the current draw:

- A rather exact one for every line involved, looking at the various measurements that have been made on P4 and P24 consumption. Here you have ~350mA @ 12V on P4 = 4.2Watt, and ~140mA @ 12V plus ~300mA @ 3.3V plus ~4200mA @ 5V on P24 = 1.7 + 1 + 21 Watt = 23.7Watt, or 27,9Watt in total. Once you power all that with 12V batteries (e.g. P24 through a picoPSU), you have a current draw of 27.9Watt / 12V = 2.3A

- In cics' currently recommended setup with parameters set as specified, he says "power consumption will be below 20Watt", so 20Watt / 12V = 1.7A

Now you have to consider the discharge characteristics of the batteries you intend to use. If you e.g. take Panasonics 7.2Ah 12V VRLA model (LC-R127R2P), it will provide a terminal voltage of ~12V for ~60mins / ~90mins at 2.3A / 1.7A . So in case of these batteries you could use 5 or 6 of them in parallel and be quite safe for 4-5hrs, plus reducing the overall internal resistance to acceptable levels.

I myself tend to extreme solutions ;-) so I would recommend to use just 2 of Panasonics 28Ah 12V batteries (price ~100EUR, so still acceptable) - their terminal voltage falls below 12V at ~2A discharge current after ~600mins, so you're really safe plus you get a decent internal resistance - which I would strongly recommend to combine with proper capacitance following the batteries anyway!

Hope that helps
Robert

RE: Which capacity batterie for cMP HTPC, posted on June 21, 2009 at 12:24:27
hanssatink
Audiophile

Posts: 65
Joined: September 13, 2008



Robert,

Thanks.

I use the GA-EG45M-UD2H mobo with 1 gig mushkin em2-6400. HDD's are external. Feeding Juli@ with dual Lipofer and using M4-ATX picpsu for 5 and 3.3V. All lines buffered with 10.000uf (Panasonics FM/FC). I have planned to feed all the 12 volt lines (P4+p24) direct analog from the batterie with use of a a low drop voltage regulator. (see attachment). I am building it all together in one desktopcase. Its pretty hard to make an easy switch between listening and charging.

You talk about dirty lines. What do you mean by that? Are the 12, 5 and 3,3 volt seperate lines not internally connected on the mobo?

RE: Which capacity batterie for cMP HTPC, posted on June 21, 2009 at 12:58:11
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Hans,

looks interesting! Although I would not want to go for the picoPSU since it is just another switching PSU (although a good one) for 3.3V and the main workhorse 5V, so nothing much gained, this certainly is a good solution. But please take care: From the MIC29502BT's datasheet I see that it needs a "voltage difference" of 350-370mV, so when you want to output 11.93V as has been recommended for optimal SQ, the batteries' terminal voltage needs to stay over 11.93V + .37V = 12.3V. Unfortunately that's a figure the datasheets for the batteries' discharge rates usully don't give you clearly. So with the above mentioned 2 x 28Ah or your suggested 50Ah battery, when using them fully charged you surely get decent playtime until they hit the 12.3V limit, but I doubt that this will be 4-5hrs. Unfortunately datesheets don't really help, I'm afraid you've got to try out. For this reason I use batteries with a total of 18V and a THEL regulator that needs a (quite high) minimal voltage difference of 2.5V which I have plenty, so I'm safe for a long time.

As Theo has explained, with "dirty supplies" I meant supplies like the Granites for HDDs, USB, LCD etc., so everything else than P4 and P24. Since you say that HDDs are external, I have understood that you do not want to power them with the same 12V battery source.

And yes, all the separate wires for the respective voltages (12V, 5V and 3.3V) are connected internally on the MoBo, multiple wires are just used to reduce cabling issues like internal resistance and heat and such.

Regards,
Robert

RE: Which capacity batterie for cMP HTPC, posted on June 21, 2009 at 12:47:08
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Hopefully robert won't object to my attempt at an answer---dirty was a term originated by cics to collectively describe power supplies for sata drives, displays, dvd/cd drives, powered mice or peripheral items that 'dirty up' the power supply for major items like cpu/sound cards.

3rd generation Gigabyte Ultra Durable MoBos - again!, posted on June 16, 2009 at 08:46:15
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
 hey cMP fans !

has anyone got any experience with these new "Ultra Durable" boards yet ?
Kristian has asked before, but maybe we can cast a little light into which of the gigabyte offerings would work well for audio.

do these boards have significant higher power requirements and different BIOS adjustments ?

I´m not doing a straight memory player, as the board has to drive my Lynx Two B card too.
-any thoughts are very welcome.
RE: 3rd generation Gigabyte Ultra Durable MoBos - again!, posted on June 16, 2009 at 10:09:15
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Joined: September 21, 2001
 GA-EG45M-UD2H

It holds a lot of promise. I'm hoping that a new BIOS update will be available soon that will allow a better setup using this card. I hope to do another comparison in the next couple of weeks.

See here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=53247

And here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=51459

And here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=51362

Greg in Mississippi

What are you guys using for memory?, posted on June 6, 2009 at 20:30:02
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 I just ordered all the parts for a proper cmp box and I just couldn't find some of the recommended memory or 256mb for that matter.

Where is a source for some low latency stuff?

I ended up getting some brand I had never heard of (always used kingston or kingston hyperx) but I think it had decent timings. If anyone has a better option please let me know
Thanks everyone, one more question., posted on June 8, 2009 at 21:40:05
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 what is more important, low latency or smaller memory size, if one has to pick?
RE: Thanks everyone, one more question., posted on June 9, 2009 at 03:26:09
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 Dawnrazor wrote:

""What is more important, low latency or smaller memory size, if one has to pick?"


I'd say latency, every time. I'm convinced it's a critical parameter for RAM in a slow computer.

As you know, memory is slow compared to processors with a trade-off between clock speed and latency. RAM able to "keep up with" a fast CPU needs more cycles to do so - i.e. it generally has a higher latency than RAM that can only keep up with a slower device. (Not all slow RAM inevitably has low latencies but low latency RAM will be on the slow side.)

As you are slowing down the CPU to lower RFI (watch out for the Herz Police), there is no need for fast RAM but there is benefit to be had from low latency. OTOH, the extra power drawn by larger capacity chips is modest.

Back in January, I asked inmates "Does RAM quality matter?" and got some interesting replies (and a few witty ones, as you'd expect). Eventually, I changed the RAM in my cMP2 box for Kingston KHX6400D2UL/1G (2 x 512 MB, 3-3-3-10) as recommended by, I think, carcass93 and adjusting settings as suggested by (again, I think) Greg to 3-3-3-6. The difference was clearly audible.

The above is only a hypothesis (OK, a guess) though I find it credible. However, even with the same latency spec, different makes of RAM do seem to sound different. As to why that is, I'm at a loss.

Hope that helps,

Dave

I was not recommending, just reporting, posted on June 9, 2009 at 08:23:59
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 725
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 I am under the impression that cics is using the Kingston 256 and
I use it because of that. I figured that was what was wanted.

I have not tried many others, other that the HYPERX 512 which was the previous recommendation. I think the 256 is better in my system

Nonetheless, I have always, simply, followed cics's formula since I wanted to hear what he was hearing.

If he has made a subsequent recommendation I have missed it!
RE: Thanks everyone, one more question., posted on June 9, 2009 at 03:18:00
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 If you want to use 256MB RAM DDR2, go with the Kingston Value RAM that Rick recommended - you'll find there aren't many others available anyway.

If you want to use 512MB, you have more choice, so look for CL4 (CAS Latency 4) RAM sticks - Kingston and Corsair have been good for me. Very hard (impossible?) to find the CL3 Kingston that cics first recommended, but the CL4 RAM will easily run at CAS latency 3 when you have underclocked your system as per latest cMP specs.

Avoid CL5 RAM - I haven't tried it, but others report bad sound - no surprise.

As for which sounds better - the differences are small, and may depend on your luck with the individual RAM module you get. They are so cheap, get a few and pick the best one!

RE: Thanks everyone, one more question., posted on July 7, 2009 at 13:33:39
abysstw
 Might want to try out the Winchip DDR2 512MB RAM rated at 1200MHz CL5. I think it sounds noticeably better than my Team DDR2 512MB CL3 800MHz, and I favor it over ValueRAM after the b27 release.

RE: Thanks everyone, one more question., posted on July 7, 2009 at 14:17:35
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Let me undestand you substituted the Winchip DDR2 512MB RAM rated at 1200MHz CL5 for your Team and Value ram and it clearly was the winner. Is that right? Did you leave all your bios voltage settings same? How did it sound better? Please say more.

the recommended 256 is no longer available at NEWEGG, posted on June 7, 2009 at 09:58:34
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 725
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 that is for sure.

This seems to me to be these most similar, though it is 512.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820144165

There is always EBAY, though I cannot remember the model # of the KINGSTON 256 - if you do not know it I can look it up. Just let me know. Should be somewhere in the thread.

Bye,

Rick McInnis

Here is one offer on EBAY, posted on June 7, 2009 at 10:04:59
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 725
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 http://cgi.ebay.com/Kingston-KVR533D2N4-256-256MB-Memory_W0QQitemZ160174667885QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item254b27786d&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

This is the good one.

Kingston-KVR533D2N4-256-256MB - the model number to look for.

RE: Here is one offer on EBAY, posted on June 7, 2009 at 10:43:00
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Joined: September 21, 2001
 Thanks for the head's up!

Another that works pretty well and is preferred by some is the Mushkin 512Mb 512MB EM2-6400 5-5-5-18 1.8V available directly from them for about $12.

Then the ThermalRight SI-128 SE is also discontinued, but I found them in stock at http://www.quietpcusa.com/index.aspx.

And finally, I've found the Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L on EBay recently too.

Oops, almost forgot... Juli@'s seem to be getting rare too. I wanted to pick up another spare and have been watching Ebay for a couple of weeks... and just about a week ago, the number listed on Ebay diminished and the cost went up from about $130 to $175. But searching via Google, many places indicate that they have it in stock.

Greg in Mississippi

cMP and HTPC, posted on May 27, 2009 at 13:43:27
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 119
Joined: December 18, 2008
 My initial aim has been to build a HTPC capable of playing 2ch music and 5.1 movies at the best possible level.

Like many others I have built a PC following cics's "The Art of Building (AOB) Computer Transports” version 0.3 and cMP Installation Guide & User Manual documents. I followed the notes closely and implemented almost all settings.

I employ a LynxTwo-B card. Through the use of Thuneau's Allocator as XO, Jack Audio Kit, J River MC and ASIO driver (with the help of a few inmates to whom I am grateful) I managed to active bi-amp my speakers for 2ch listening, although not in cMP mode. The use of ASIO is recommended by cics's notes and...well, almost everybody.

I would also like to keep the above two main speakers configuration for multi-channel listening as Front-L/R, because it would be unpractical to recable for movie playback. cMP's Installation Guide in its Sample HTPC chapter briefly mentions that "given its open architecture, cMP can be used successfully for playing movies. Excellent results have been gained using Power DVD." I have tried that unsuccessfully - I must say, however, that I was not in cMP mode.
It seems to me that all DVD/movie players around employ DirectSound whereas for the aforementioned software I require ASIO. The only player that comes close to it, and yet so far, is VLC with its supposed compatibility with PortAudio. Unfortunately - from the voice of one of the developers - "the PortAudio used in VLC might be built without Jack support. AFAIK ASIO support is also missing from portaudio used in VLC."

Does cMP manage to play movies through ASIO which is normally used in its music delivery? The fact that an ISO file is loaded into memory shouldn't make it capable of playing through ASIO...

Please give me any kind of help for reaching movie playback... Otherwise, after putting a lot of time, money and effort, I will have to give up on active bi-amping and digital XO which was one of the main reasons for building a cMP-like HTPC in the first place.

I thank you in advance for your help and, above all, for this project and everybody who put effort into it.

RE: cMP and HTPC, posted on May 28, 2009 at 02:43:08
monaco
Audiophile

Posts: 18
Joined: August 1, 2008
 Hi Bibo01,

In advance of an expert reply from cics:

cMP is not a player - it is in effect a shell programme which removes unwanted XP services, loads the chosen file into memory and launches the appropriate player e.g foobar 2000 or cPlay for music

It is cPlay which requires an ASIO interface to work - not cMP. The cMP options menu allows you to nominate RAM load or not and identify which services you suspend when in cMP mode.

Follow the guidelines and modify the .pth file to nominate your player for dvd's. Do not forget cMP works from cue files.

good luck

RE: cMP and HTPC, posted on May 28, 2009 at 03:06:10
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 119
Joined: December 18, 2008
 Yes, I was aware of that.
Sorry, I did not express myself properly.

RE: cMP and HTPC, posted on May 28, 2009 at 02:40:16
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
Does cMP manage to play movies through ASIO which is normally used in its music delivery? The fact that an ISO file is loaded into memory shouldn't make it capable of playing through ASIO...


cMP will not dictate audio output settings. I use a separate cMP for DVDs with 1TB of storage. In your case, you could use one cMP but this would require switching players (via .pth) file for Music and Movies. Your idea of using ASIO is very good if only you can find a DVD player that supports ASIO. This way, main L&R channels remain as is whilst additional channels are used for movies. You may want to look into Zoom Player.

Also, do not RAM load ISO files - they way too large.

RE: cMP and HTPC, posted on May 28, 2009 at 09:19:55
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 119
Joined: December 18, 2008
 cics,

You as developer of cPlay, is a multi-channel version of cPlay totally impossible supporting therefore ASIO? :)
I suppose you get into a labbyrint of A/V codecs...

RE: cMP and HTPC, posted on May 28, 2009 at 03:17:44
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 119
Joined: December 18, 2008
 I am prepared to switch players for Music and for Movies.
Unfortunately, as you say "Your idea of using ASIO is very good if only you can find a DVD player that supports ASIO".
That is a huge "ONLY".
It means that Music player would use ASIO and Movie player would use DirectSound. It also means that my 2ch configuration - bi-amp + digital XO - is not feasable.
I did have a look at Zoom Player, but it does not support ASIO. Actually, other people requested it but developers do not seem too interested in that.

It looks like I have reached the end of the road! :((

I am now looking into the possibility of entering the PC with an external DVD player and come out through ASIO...I wander if it is possible?!

RE: cMP and HTPC, posted on August 24, 2009 at 03:42:18
flipper
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Qld
Joined: August 1, 2009

J River media centre has ASIO output with DVD's.
cPlay will not launch in cmp mode !, posted on May 24, 2009 at 19:21:46
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
 dear cmp fans !

I have tremendous joy of using cPlay (2.0b25) in my setup with jack audio kit to connect to a digital XO by thuneau and further on via ASIO to my lynx twoB card,
-but I´m still struggling to get the full cMP2 mode in operation.
I´ve copied the .pth file from cPlay into the memory player folder, but cPlay does not want to launch.
in settings "real-time" and "critical" diagnostics say player exited and tread to null.
in "player" setting it will just not load/be visible...

-any ideas of whats going wrong ?

any hint is highly welcome !

kind regards leif

Is this only in cMP Mode or also with XP Mode?, posted on May 25, 2009 at 09:21:18
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 With cMP 1.2, the default player is cPlay (no need to copy the .pth file).

In either case, cMP expects to find cPlay in its default installation folder (c:\program files\cics play). If this is different, you need to change the .pth file (to new cPlay folder).

The other reason why cPlay will not start is if you are using the wrong version. If your CPU only does SSSE3, and you installed SSE4, cplay exists immediately.

diagnostics say :, posted on May 25, 2009 at 16:09:28
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
 RAM loading file "c/......." wav size 440MB

processed to 10 MB
processed to 20 MB
processed to 30 MB
.......
processed to 440 MB

Player started.

Task=#N "c:/ program files/cicsPlay.exe"%C
Player Process Affinity:system 0x0012F 1A8 before 0x00000040 after 0x0012FA8
Player optimation by Player
=>Player exited
player action completed




....does that make sense cics ?
RE: diagnostics say :, posted on May 25, 2009 at 16:56:31
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Set RAM Load to NO (cPlay RAM loads internally).

Diagnostics should look something like this:


Request to play:

	[ Andrea Bocelli - Romanza ]


Player started.
       Task = #N "c:\program files\cics Play\cicsPlay.exe" %C
       Player Process Affinity: system 0x00000003 before 0x00000001 after 0x00000003
       Player optimisation by Player.

==> Player exited.

Play action completed.


Notice the "Task" folder is different to yours. Change your cicsMemoryPlayer.pth (in C:\Program Files\cics Memory Player) "CUE_PLAYER" line to:


CUE_PLAYER #N "c:\program files\cics Play\cicsPlay.exe" %C


What worries me is your affinity values: 0x00000040 & 0x0012F1A8 - these are garbage!

both modes, posted on May 25, 2009 at 14:26:58
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
 hey cics

thanks for your reply.

in both xp and cMP mode the player will not launch. I can swop between them in different windows. cPlay is definitely running. cMP loads the selected album from it´s panel but does not show cPlay when booted to cMP.

i have figured out that the tread in the .pth file in 1.2 is towards cPlay.
my Intel E7300 does support the SSE4.1 !

what am I doing wrong ??

did almost finish the BIOS settings this evening and experienced another few increments of quality playback....this project is just soo competent in regards to high-fidelity !
profoundly "emotional" as you say, cics !

kind regards
cMP Error, posted on May 15, 2009 at 00:37:36
cktc
Audiophile

Posts: 46
Location: So Cal.
Joined: May 7, 2005
 I just installed cMP, it has error "Process: explorer.exe Terminated.
ERROR: Unable to get Access privileges.
optimiseProcesses: Cannot Set Access priviledges. Play CD failed."
I'm using Vista-64. Does anyone know how to fix it?

RE: cMP Error, posted on May 15, 2009 at 07:20:35
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 You are starting out with the most difficult operating system for cMP. If you can't use XP, move up to Windows 7 - a more hospitiable environment for cMP than Vista. (Current Vista users take note: you can add any folders to the cMP library - not just from the Desktop!!)

I could never get to cMP-mode with Vista 64, so left it, but even with the basic mode you have problems to overcome. First, get control of Vista - turn off UAC, but that isn't enough - you have to enable the real Administrator account and run everything from there. Second, I think the cicsMemoryPlayer folder needs to be in the "Program Files (x86)" directory not the "Program Files" directory, and then you have to edit the cicsMemoryPlayer.pth file: CUE_PLAYER line has to go to "Program Files (x86)". Third, you have to optimize the Vista system as outlined by cics before using cMP.

Really, don't waste your time with 64 unless you have no other choice. XP is best, followed by Windows 7.

Anybody ever try grounding the GA-G31M-S2L mobo to a wall socket screw?, posted on May 9, 2009 at 07:37:41
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I did it on a lark and a hunch and I'll be darn if it didn't make a sq improvement--small but noticeable.

P24 current measurements, posted on May 4, 2009 at 12:57:52
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 I'm in the process of going "all battery" for P24 too (P4 done), so in order to right-size the respective power lines I considered it a good idea to do a few measurements (just as Dave and Mark have done on P4). Thought I'd share if anyone else is interested - brought a few interesting insights, at least to me.

Current setup: Almost "standard" recommended cMP2 setup, i.e. Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L, E7200, 1GB Mushkin EM2-6400 [superior to ValueRam and HyperX], Lynx AES-16 [will go Juli@ w/ external 3.3V PS next week], cPlay 2.0b23 SSSE3, all optimizations incl. Minlogon done - did I forget anything...?). Measurements done with Antec Earthwatts 430 for convenience, picoPSU showed same results.

All BIOS optimizations done. CPU host frequency at 150 MHz, SPD at 2.00, Mushkin RAM timed manually at 3-3-3-7, CPU GTLREF at 0.566V, CPU Voltage at 0.76875V (it's a shame but I can't get any lower, no way system would boot then...). CPU-Z reports Core Voltage to be at 0.752V. Core Speed is 900MHz, Bus Speed is 150MHz, FSB is 600MHz.

-------------

"Special" power rails:

* 5V StandBy:
- When PS turned on before pressing Power Switch: 170mA
-> During operation (idle / playback): 50 mA

* Power_Good:
- No current could be measured with my rather "rough" multimeter -> seems that since this is a signal line, it is sufficient that just the voltage is provided with some very low current, certainly below 50mA, according to my measurements below 10-20mA, but 5V provided

* Power_On:
- Switches from 5V to 0V at startup, so not relevant here

* -12V:
- As little as ~10mA during operation

NOTE: Most important (and for me quite surprising) :
All of the above can be TURNED OFF COMPLETELY during operation, they are NOT NEEDED during playback (at least in my [recommended] setup)! I ran all of the aboce through a switch, and I could turn them off at any time even during music playback without any adverse / negative effects. Didn't expect that... ;-)

So the "relevant" lines to take care of come down to:

-------------

"Regular" power lines:

* 12V:
- Starting at 180mA at startup, quickly coming down to 140mA and staying at that level during idle and playback

* 3.3V:
- I had supposed that being the "main line", but it isn't - starting at ~300mA and staying constant at that level during idle and playback

* 5V:
- Now that's the real thing... Starting right off at 3 - 3.2A (!), going up to 3.6 - 4.2A during boot up - and breaking off as soon as cMP is loaded... This 5V line is so volatile, changing current so quickly and swiftly that it seems to not tolerate my rather "slow" multimeter - couldn't get the system up and running with the multimeter phased in - will retry with caps in place :-)
Nevertheless, the learning is: tis is the rail with the BIG draw at ~ 3.5 to 4.5A (more precise measurements to follow when caps are in place)

-------------

Hope you find this as useful as I do - did that the best I could, please notify me of any flaws or errors I made, comments highly appreciated.

Cheers,
Robert

RE: P24 current measurements, posted on May 4, 2009 at 15:02:11
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Joined: September 21, 2001
 Robert,

Very useful information, sir! Thanks for doing & posting this.

This will be very useful for creating a fully-linear computer power supply... it's clear that the 12v P4 and the 5v ATX-24 lines are two of the key 'workhorse' lines.

One thought that may be useful for a fully linear CPS is to power each of the 5 5v lines with a separate power supply... regulator or battery. Powering them separately and measuring them separately may provide other information on how they are used and how we can best optimize each.

Another useful technique might be to use very high-quality supplies (again, regulated or battery) for the 3.3v and 12v, since they aren't pulling a lot of amps.

And of course, while it's useful to put additional filtering caps across each of these three voltage rails, based on your data I suspect that separate filtering caps across each of the 5 5v lines may provide additional benefits even if separate supplies are not implemented.

Its not surprising to me that the 'special' rails can be turned off after the computer is on (In fact, I bet that you could boot the PC with the -12v and the 5v standby turned off). One thing to note, tho, is that the -12v is used by the Juli@'s analog section (although in my setup before separately powering it, I was only measuring -9v at that point on the Juli@ board.

Two more things... give us more details on your battery-power setups, both for the P4 and the ATX-24. Then also, give us more details on the Mushkin memory... what other ones did you compare against, how is it superior to the others, and did you try other timings settings?

Thanks for the most provocative and useful post I've seen here in a long time (of course, besides the almost 2x weekly releases of new versions of cPLAY!).

Greg in Mississippi

RE: P24 current measurements, posted on May 4, 2009 at 20:16:42
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 Greg,

thank you. Yes, I'm completely with you that powering every power rail separately is a good idea - it might be a bit of overkill, but separation and elimination of interference and cross-balancing issues (quite a concern in "standard" ATX power supplies) will help bring the various components even more "at rest" and let them play as easy and effortless as possible. When I have swapped my Lynx card with Juli@ and powered it separately, P24 "only" has to power MoBo and memory (still and awfully complicated task), that'll help. I'm planning on using completely separated supplies (i.e. battery packs) for every voltage line anyway, including thorough regulating plus filtering caps - more to follow as I progress ;-)

Regarding booting with -12V and 5V standby turned off: You'd loose your bet ;-) PS for P4 and P24 has been my special field of interest for the past weeks, and while P4 is easy, P24 needs quite some attention... As you might know, ATX standard requires a proper and quite stict power up scheme (more details can e.g. be found here: www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf). 5V has to be there in the first place for the computer's power switch to have the MoBo's power control circuit (PCC) start the sequence, hold low the formerly held high 5V "Power_On" line (the green line on P24) to have the power supply ramp up the three main voltage lines and after successfully doing this issue the Power_Good signal (5V, the grey line on P24). This all has to be done in a corridor in a 100ms range with specific ramp rates, and I found the Gigabyte board be rather strict at that - I tried for weeks to emulate that timing and ramping manually (with switches and caps etc.) but didn't succeed, you need some kind of power management component to take care of this. I'm currently looking for someone to build such a power sequencing model from readily available components like Actel's Fusion or Linear Technologies' LTC2928 (cost currently quoted at 10-15k and above for developing that...), but in the meantime as a workaround just power up with my regular ATX PS (Antec) and then switch off the special rails not needed and switch over the main rails to battery power. Quite rough a method, I know, but works well for 12V and 3.3V for the time being, but still stability issues with the "workhorse" 5V rail. Will keep you updated once I have gathered more experience and details. Nevertheless, 5V standby and -12V line is a must to be present at startup, otherwise MoBo's PCC will not power up.

Regarding my P4 battery PS: No special timing etc. issues have to be taken care of here, powering P4 is pretty easy and straightforward as many have shown us here before (many thanks for their respective guidance and information!). In my case I power this with a pack of 3 boards with 5 high-quality 1.2V/1.8Ah NiMH cells each, i.e. 18V/1.8Ah (recharged by a transformator fed into the central control unit, all of these modules are manufactured by a small local electronics company). Since the current draw is low at ~350mA during playback, this is good for a 4 hour listening session (I usually don't have that much time in one go anyway...). Power then is fed into a voltage regulator which brings it down to precisely 11.94V as measured to be optimal by Bernd and confirmed by Theo recently. Since the regulator is designed to be quite "slow" and "weak" on purpose and thus is very forgiving, large caps can follow - I run the power into 5 x 10kuF Mundorf caps followed by a 47uF cap as quick buffer and a 1uF one as bypass (I am extremely positive about the Mundorfs, can't praise them enough). this setup works like a charm without any hassle for me. While the sonic effects were rather subtle from the start, I feel it overall added transparence and clarity and ease of playing, especially in midrange and upper bass - to my ears it rather sounded a bit as I could here the processor working now without the limits of a rigid, tight and polluted power supply as before, but that's what I wanted to hear for sure ;-) That's more or less a similar setup I'll try to follow with P24 too, will let you know once I get there (will require mighty PB cells instead of the NiMH for the 5v rail though).

Mushkin memory has been a recommendation by Alfred/sonics, so he's the one to both take the credits and comment on that in more detail. Haven't done much comparison myself - I almost exclusively play 16/44.1 WAV files upsampled to 24/192, had ValueRam 256MB before, swapped that with an "original" HyperX UL stick w/ 512MB which brought significant improvements to me , but still swapping that to the 1GB Mushkin stick made things even more "right", beautiful and in place - for me quite a substantial improvement. I started with SPD in BIOS set to "Auto", CPU-Z showed it had clocked itself in at 4-3-3-7, so the only thing I did was lower the first value (cycles) to 3 which had an unexpectedly clear effect in bringing back lateral spacing and soundstage.

I think that's more than enough for one post now - thanks for your patience... ;-)
Robert

Problem: Asus Xonar essence doesn't fit on G31M-ES2L, posted on May 2, 2009 at 09:12:28
Apokalypse
Audiophile

Posts: 200
Location: Victoria
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I decided to go with the Asus Xonar essence as the sound card only to find I can't put it in the PCI-e slot because the RAM is in the way. Very disappointing to say the least.

On this site http://canhtpcbeatcd.blogspot.com/ the writer says "I feel Asus P5Q Deluxe sounds better than Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L." This board will be able to fit the Asus but doesn't have onboard video.

Does anyone have any recommendations? I'd prefer to get the Asus card to fit, but don't see how this is possible.

RE: Problem: Asus Xonar essence doesn't fit on G31M-ES2L, posted on May 3, 2009 at 12:36:55
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Joined: September 21, 2001
 Can you post a picture to show us what you're dealing with?

Greg in Mississippi

RE: Problem: Asus Xonar essence doesn't fit on G31M-ES2L, posted on May 3, 2009 at 17:23:46
Apokalypse
Audiophile

Posts: 200
Location: Victoria
Joined: April 1, 2005
 If you look at a pic of the motherboard you can see the PCIe slot is in line with the RAM slots. The Asus card physically won't fit in the slot because it crosses over the RAM.

RE: Problem: Asus Xonar essence doesn't fit on G31M-ES2L, posted on May 4, 2009 at 06:19:24
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Joined: September 21, 2001
 I've seen PCI-E adapters that allow repositioning the card (flexible connection) or turning it sideways (rigid connection). One of these should allow you to get it fitted.

Sorry, don't have a specific source. Try Amazon or Newegg, search for 'PCI-E riser card'.

Greg in Mississippi

Any advantages in cd audio extraxction using EAC in CMP optimized computer ?, posted on May 1, 2009 at 06:01:58
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 27
Joined: November 27, 2007
 I'm questioning myself about advantages in cd audio extraction using EAC in CMP optimized computer ?
I currently use EAC with my standard PC with all audio quality options on and accurate rip with a plextor px-230A cd (the best cd rom I have found for audio extraction).
The extraction is done in one file with cue file.
The audio file should be perfect.
No advantages in cd audio extraxction using EAC in CMP optimized computer ?, posted on May 2, 2009 at 08:25:03
Bertel
Audiophile

Posts: 78
Joined: February 12, 2009
 I second cics and Greg on this:

In theory there should not be any difference in whatever environment you run EAC (as long as it performs without error) - EAC is about EXTRACTION of data into files which are either correct or not, not the REPRODUCTION of these data, that's a completely different story as we cMP2 evangelists know so well ;-)

In practice I didn't care about any theory but just wanted to find out and hear and so Itried it: ripped with EAC on cMP machine when I had set it up a few months ago, ripped on my standard PC and also on a very noisy old laptop computer. File comparison showed that files were identical, playback of these files brought no audible difference whatsoever at least to my ears.

Hope this gives others a bit of the confidence it gave me that the environment for running EAC really doesn't matter.

Regards,
Robert

RE: Any advantages in cd audio extraxction using EAC in CMP optimized computer ?, posted on May 1, 2009 at 14:28:17
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Joined: September 21, 2001
 I've been doing my ripping on a different computer than my cMP as advised by cics. I cannot think of any reason that it should make a difference... as long as you have a bit-perfect transfer to the disk, the cMP should not care where it came from. Heck, even a Mac should work ok! ;)

When I do my transfer from the ripper computer to the cMP, instead of using USB, I'll take the harddrive out of my ripper & connect it as the secondary drive in my cMP (Of course, you do this with both computers off!). The SATA transfer is incomparibly faster than even a USB2 transfer.

Later!

Greg in Mississippi

I should add..., posted on May 2, 2009 at 07:10:55
GStew
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Joined: September 21, 2001
 That if you are re-ripping your music to recordable CDs, using a machine that has been optimized with cMP-styled techniques should make significant difference... but with a cMP around, who listens to CDs anymore?

Greg in Mississippi

P.S. I had started gathering the equipment to do this and have been very glad that the cMP was developed before I could get too far on this.

RE: Any advantages in cd audio extraxction using EAC in CMP optimized computer ?, posted on May 1, 2009 at 06:21:00
riboge
Audiophile

Posts: 263
Joined: June 25, 2008
 I think you will find that most cMP users do their extractions on another non-dedicated computer using EAC or dbPoweramp and then transfer them to their cMP optimized setup. I don't recall reading any claims that doing it directly in cMP computer provides better results.

I had asked cics about this ..., posted on May 1, 2009 at 08:06:55
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 725
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 and he said he could think of no reason it would make a difference.

He may have found reason to change his mind since then.

I know when I started doing it on the OTHER machine and was able to use the database for names of artists and songs, I was pleased with that!

I could hear nothing detrimental and sometimes wondered if something was better, which could be due to the disk drive.

Once you do it this way you will never return. Just remember on the GIGABYTE board to set BIOS for USB 2 or the transfer takes forever and, of course, after you are done disable USB 2, per cics's instructions.

Storing music on two internal drives, posted on April 28, 2009 at 12:22:43
Kristian
Audiophile

Posts: 573
Joined: September 24, 2008
 Some neophyte questions here. If one is to use 2.5" drives but needs more space than they offer, say 2 500G drives together, how does one do that without using RAID 0?

Or, is RAID 0 plenty reliable to do that, and if so, one then also needs a RAID controller card, right?

Alternatively, can't one use a separate case for a main 3.5" 1-1.5TB disk, powered by its own small PS and connected by E-SATA? Would that introduce its own problems?

Thanks!

RE: Storing music on two internal drives, posted on April 29, 2009 at 00:31:30
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 No need to use RAID as audio data is RAM loaded (either by cMP or directly in cPlay), i.e. no HDD traffic takes place during playback. Only remaining benefit from RAID is faster load times (bottleneck to RAM loading is HDD read speed).

If you insist on using RAID then look for a mobo that offers RAID in SouthBridge chipset (avoid adding a RAID card). Gigabyte's GA-EG45M-UD2H offers RAID through ICH10R SouthBridge. This mobo may very well be the best choice - more feedback needed.

Other options: rather use 2.5" 500GB drives (either internal or via eSATA). Avoid standard 3.5" drives alltogether (too noisy and you will hear it from a distance, more power consumption and greater vibrations). Best choice is SSD drives but costs needs to drop.
RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on April 25, 2009 at 11:59:34
57gold
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: Tampa Bay
Joined: January 4, 2004
 Anyone out there build and set up these babies for technically challenged guys like me? Any businesses that do it?

Building a cMP, posted on April 29, 2009 at 00:35:05
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 It's not difficult doing this yourself. Many have built cMPs with minimal experience. A good place to start is your local PC Games Store - they can help with the full build (especially if they source the parts).

RE: Building a cMP, posted on April 29, 2009 at 05:10:51
sonis
 Hi cics,
i think you have resolved the remaining problems of 22. SSE4 is now useable
and smoothness is comparable with the earlier SSE3 Versions.Low freq. are dryer ,space is the same, overall increased deteils.

Questions on deeper optimization for the knowledgeable., posted on April 25, 2009 at 09:23:20
steppe
Audiophile

Posts: 239
Joined: September 28, 2006
 Hello, everybody. Here are some questions
1. At the root of windows there is the Microsoft beloved infant-terrible, called OLE object linking & embedding Can it be safely removed with autoruns program or any other way?
2. As I haven't done ALL optims by autoruns, I decided to take a second look - cd burn, tv, windows streaming video, media player can be safely removed. Several processes like internet explorer cannot even be marked, WHY?
3. If we type msconfig in start - run, we get a prog, that enables to have different services and autorun processes to be disabled - did anyone try it?
4. As I haven't succeeded with minlogon yet, I have an "inferiority complex" and started to read deeper into Your posts. This is the last AND MOST important question - How to implement minlogon on BIOSTAR with XP SP2 and with ASIO4ALL. Is it possible? What to take care of? Please answer the last question only if You have real experience with all three at once.
Waiting for Your help.
Serge.
Why is there a trojan in cMP?, posted on April 25, 2009 at 07:02:23
audiozorro
Audiophile

Posts: 337
Location: VA-MD-DC
Joined: January 9, 2007
 I looked through the previous posts that basically said don't worry but gave no explanation.

It's my understanding that Trojan Generic is a trojan program that can contain a malware program or it can perform actions that user doesn't even notice. Trojan Generic acts very aggressive and can even destroy users computer system, steal personal data. Sometimes even antivirus programs can not delete this Trojan. Trojan Generic can look like it is desirable but actually it contains very something harmful. Trojan Generic can allow other computer users to get full access to users computer system through a security hole. Trojan Generic should be detected and deleted as soon as possible for your own safety.

So after I load cMP on someone else's computer, what do I tell them to calm their fears that I just installed the cMP_1_2_final_setup.exe that contains a trojan?

But there IS a Virus, posted on April 25, 2009 at 09:06:05
steppe
Audiophile

Posts: 239
Joined: September 28, 2006
 It is called ahkosk or smth like that, it is discovered by Avast antivirus and is removed, but sometimes it remains, the files of virus are ntde1tect.com and autosomething. It is harmless at first, it manifests as always opening the same window after booting up, mostly C:\*folder* Also it easily migrates onto flash drive that I use for wav and cue transfer between comps.
Serge.

RE: But there IS a Virus, posted on April 26, 2009 at 01:17:45
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 Serge wrote:

It is called ahkosk or smth like that . . .

Ahkosk.exe is NOT a virus or a trojan or any form of malware. There is a popular GPL automation utility called Autohotkey embedded in cMP to drive its remote control facility and ‘on-screen’ keyboard. The latter relies on a little executable whose name is the acronymn of:

AutoHotKeyOnScreenKeyboard:

i.e. AHKOSK.exe.

These have been discussed on the forum (inc the reasons for using ahkosk in preference to Microsoft's OSK utility) and I think they are mentioned in the documentation though I haven't checked.

I don't use either facility so I've no direct experience of them. In fact, I'd prefer it if loading them was made optional to lower the memory footprint but it's not what I'd call an urgent mod. Meanwhile, see:

http://www.autohotkey.com/

and:

http://www.autohotkey.com/forum/topic18378.html

*** After posting this, I found that Uzeb has already pointed elsewhere to a thread on the "cMP is malware" rumour. I apologise for any duplication but it's worth nailing this one.

Best

Dave

RE: Why is there a trojan in cMP?, posted on April 25, 2009 at 08:26:19
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 audiozorro asked:

Why is there a trojan in cMP?

The short answer is that there isn't. There is no malware of any sort in cMP or cPlay or in any of the ancillary software recommended for cMP2 systems.

One or two users have reported that some malware detection programs issue a trojan warning when cMP is installed. However, the program's "user base" (some users have worked professionally with computers for a long time and are not inclined to light-minded risk-taking with data) have overwhelmingly discounted these warnings. Among its reasons for doing so are:

1. "False Positives" are, from time to time, inevitable when using malware detection software. As cMP is a replacement for XP's Explorer shell, the occasional "false positive" is perhaps not altogether surprising;

2. Dozens of users have installed the program time and again without any problems that could reasonably be put down to its containing malware.

3. If it did contain malware, it would probably be the only example whose author has been in regular and congenial correspondence with his "victims" for the best part of two years;

4. There is a wealth of information out there on detecting and removing "Trojan Generic" that should, aside from the above, put your mind at rest.

I hope that helps,

Dave

What does the author have to say?, posted on April 25, 2009 at 18:11:22
audiozorro
Audiophile

Posts: 337
Location: VA-MD-DC
Joined: January 9, 2007
 I am not implying that the author has deliberately planted a Trojan in his program. I am also aware that not all anti-virus software is equally capable in detecting malware.

It is also my impression that most users of cMP do not use anti-virus software on their computer player and a dedicated computer is recommended for cMP with no network or Internet capability. Thus the majority of cMP users wouldn’t be aware of a possible Trojan and if they are not connected to a network or the Internet any possible Trojan would not be an issue.

I did a search on “Trojan” and “cMP” in Computer Audio Asylum and came up with 10 records to date. I have seen nothing from the author, so I’m not convinced he is aware of these observations of malware or any possible problems. I do think it’s a bad practice to distribute a program without warning users that their anti-virus software may detect that the downloaded file is infected and that after the setup installation an anti-virus scan may report a Trojan Generic.
RE: What does the author have to say?, posted on April 25, 2009 at 21:19:25
Uzeb
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Joined: November 5, 2008
 audiozorro did you see this post

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=32201&highlight=trojan+in+cmp



PC XPpro TC Electronic Konnekt-8 firewire i/o, 2-Tact 2150's, Genesis 500 modified speakers, Virtual Dynamics & XLO cables

RE: What does the author have to say?, posted on April 26, 2009 at 18:12:09
audiozorro
Audiophile

Posts: 337
Location: VA-MD-DC
Joined: January 9, 2007
 Thanks, I did review the earlier posts but I still felt uncomfortable especially if I had to install the cMP program on someone else’s computer. Although McAfee and Norton are the two most widely used anti-virus programs, in most independent tests there are several programs rated much higher in effectiveness and finding new viruses, whereas McAfee and Norton often lag behind.

I do feel somewhat better, more knowledgeable and I thank everyone for their comments. My solution will just be to follow the recommended setup, i.e. a dedicated computer not connected to the Internet or networked to other computers. Thus the anti-virus warning of a Trojan Generic will have no consequences, whether real, imagined or benign.
RE: What does the author have to say?, posted on April 27, 2009 at 13:53:57
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
I think this a non issue. One of the posts you must have seen is the one from me with a bitdefender screen shot.

But I still run cmp on my rig. I am not worried.

And cmp is not alone. Here is a screen shot from a player that does give that warning you require. I bet he is using similar code to cics for the remote control. From the Mp3toys set up menu( I circled it in red):





Like cmp, I think this is a legit player too.
Got 2.5" drives, fanless configuration and..., posted on April 25, 2009 at 06:51:36
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ...sq is superb. However I do get the metallics (depending on day) every 3 - 8 hours. The only thing left to try is xp sp3 in place of xp sp2. does anybody think this may be worth a try?

Look I can easily live with current set up listening to juli@ analogue outs but there has to be a solution. I can also listen to juli@ digital outs if I listen to to cplay 18 or cplay 22 via 96 but I am curious why I have this issue.

RE: Got 2.5" drives, fanless configuration and..., posted on April 25, 2009 at 09:35:36
steppe
Audiophile

Posts: 239
Joined: September 28, 2006
 Hello! Theo! I have written to You that You will eventually need reinstall windows. It is not sp2's fault. The fault is in some of the deeper optimizations done not carefully enough, when You might have unchecked some process that is vital, instead of unnecessary one.
This is still my opinion. You don't have to make it sp3.
Serge

RE: Got 2.5" drives, fanless configuration and..., posted on April 26, 2009 at 03:43:42
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 thats what I thought 3 weeks ago when I reloaded xp sp2. but it didn't get rid of the problem. thanks for your comment.

Interesting experience with p4 voltage as set on Antec pot, posted on April 21, 2009 at 07:16:46
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I am trying to perfect my system to be 'by the (cics) book' (thanks to Gregg for this suggestion). I have added 2.5" lap top drive, a fanless cooler on order etc etc and all things have improved sq and system stability. I also have tried different voltage levels on p4 by adjusting the Antec onboard potentiometer. For many months I had it set all the way counterclockwise which gave me 11.82 volts (as measured by my vom on the p4 cap mod board--more easy to get at and definitely more accurate than cpuz). Anyway I tried adjusting the pot and with cplay 2.0b 22 the mere adjustment of a few tenths of a volt is not subtle from a sq perspective. Too high and the highs dry up and it sounds bland. Too low and it sounds wimpy. So I found that 11.94 was perfect for my system--good dynamics/bass and almost perfect highs--very ambient/airy with great attack/release and zero hardness.

Now the sweet spot may vary for everybody but I am running juli@ analogue outs and I currently have my host clock control at 165 and vid (as shown in cpuz) at .83 volts. I was very surprised at the sensitivity of my system's sq to this p4 voltage setting. If you try this re-check bios because it kept resetting host clock control to auto and mememory multiplier to auto when I did the experimenting. But if you stick with it and get your 'normal bios settings' back, the sound will change a lot.

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on April 20, 2009 at 08:36:35
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Calling sonics (alfred). need to ask some questions about one of your juli@ power supply mod. You can either pm me or do it online (I lost all my email so I don't have your email id to initiate a pm).

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on April 20, 2009 at 09:47:40
hanssatink
Audiophile

Posts: 65
Joined: September 13, 2008
 http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/4/49480.html

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on April 21, 2009 at 06:28:11
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I have a 5 volt rechargeable battery I want to use for this mod but I haven't used it for over a year and the battery is predictably fully discharged. So I plugged in the charger but it doesn't seem to charge. Any ideas on how to bring it back to life or is it dead forever?

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on April 21, 2009 at 11:32:20
hanssatink
Audiophile

Posts: 65
Joined: September 13, 2008
 I fear that this batterie has died.
Lead batteries are very sensitive.

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on April 21, 2009 at 11:49:26
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 You are probably right but its a lithium ion battery. Still think it might be dead?

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on April 21, 2009 at 12:04:48
hanssatink
Audiophile

Posts: 65
Joined: September 13, 2008
 lithium ion can be unloaded without damage i think. But not sure.
Have you load it with a higher voltage.

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on April 21, 2009 at 12:43:25
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 well I have a trickle charge on it. that should work but doesn't seem to.

Why not one of Giga's new 2-oz. mobos?, posted on April 17, 2009 at 16:45:52
Kristian
Audiophile

Posts: 573
Joined: September 24, 2008
 Check link below; these mobos have some nice touches, like thicker power traces, solid caps, ferrit core, etc. Someone else suggested this, and there is now plenty of independent testing showing they run much cooler, and are electrically more stable. They're ATX-sized, though.

RE: Why not one of Giga's new 2-oz. mobos?, posted on April 18, 2009 at 01:41:24
abysstw
 Check the linked preview, the BIOS not only offers "...a lot of voltage options, but the individual adjustments are extremely liberal as you can see below".

The CPU vCORE can be set to a minimum of 0.5v! Seems quite promising to me.

Has anyone used the stockintel cooler w/o the fan?, posted on April 17, 2009 at 16:29:51
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I'm running 93 deg F with the fan, I'm thinking that at .85 or below vid and 160 or below host clock control it can't get that hot.

Anyway is it a good idea or just simply not worth trying?

RE: does cMP sound best with the least amount of memory?, posted on April 17, 2009 at 13:52:11
audiogremlin
Audiophile

Posts: 181
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: October 10, 2006
 My laptop has 2 GB RAM. Should I be lowering it to increase sound quality? Will this make a difference and why?

RE: does cMP sound best with the least amount of memory?, posted on April 21, 2009 at 07:32:49
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Using less RAM will improve SQ. More RAM consumes more power.

A laptop setup is not ideal (no separation of CPU and mobo power supply, very limited BIOS flexibility, fans, cannot use PCI or PCIe cards, e.g. Juli@).

Can we retest /nopae (i.e. remove it), posted on April 16, 2009 at 17:28:55
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 My findings after long term use is to NOT use this option. Initial sound is very good but is not consistent: long term SQ changes towards being "bright".

What are your results with "/nopae" removed?

Great feedback, thanks. /nopae has been removed from recommended settings., posted on April 21, 2009 at 07:28:36
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 .

RE: Can we retest /nopae (i.e. remove it), posted on April 18, 2009 at 04:20:46
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Cics,

It took me a little D-tour, but now reading you’re post, I’m leaning too the same conclusion to remove it.

It now explains why my cMP setup sounded not okay after adding a dedicated linear power supply too power the P4 pin last Wednesday. After adding the linear PS too pin 4 the sound was like ‘on steroids’. Everything bigger and impressive but not something you want to live with.

First I blamed the simple linear power supply for that. It looks a bit like this one. Only with much better ripple specs ! (max 2,5 mV)
http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=310&EID=3075&txtModelID=234 ( I can’t show the actual linear PS I ordered because one cannot directly link into the dutch version of radio shack (www.conrad.nl) too show it .

Adding the b22 cplay version today bettered things a little. But the sound was still not okay.
Very detailed, but still ‘forward’ and ‘in you’re face’. Hi-Fi-isch if you like.

Reading you’re post this morning, I removed the /nopae and that did the trick.
Now everything sounds balanced (not forward and upfront anymore)

By the way: very very nice last version (b22) of cplay
Again there is more 3D, space and better treble without being forward and upfront.

LynxL22 dig i/o -> Lavry Black DA10 -> Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300

RE: Can we retest /nopae (i.e. remove it), posted on April 18, 2009 at 04:53:44
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I agree, what was initially more transparency turned out to be too much over the top after a while.

nopae is out.

retest of "/nopae", posted on April 18, 2009 at 02:30:27
monaco
Audiophile

Posts: 18
Joined: August 1, 2008
Results from removing and then re-applying "/nopae" to my CMP1.2/cPlay2.0b4 rig - comparison made using HDtracks 24/96 FLAC sampler files are:

removing /nopae - mid-range has more noticeable detail, treble less prominent as a result yielding a 'refined' presentation

re-applying /nopae - bass more tuneful with better dynamics, treble more obvious but overall effect somehow more 'alive'

As I have XPPro SP1 and am limited to 2.0b4.....YMMV
To nopae or not to nopae, posted on April 18, 2009 at 02:30:02
steppe
Audiophile

Posts: 239
Joined: September 28, 2006
 Hello, again, cics! I tested it. The results:
My CMP-cPlay is built around Biostar mobo, all optims done exept minlogon
Played first WITH nopae Jethro Tull Roots To Branches. This disk is recorded very openly, rather bright and in quiet passages we can easily hear artificial echoes or reverberation of brushes on cymbals. If played on a bright cd player these echoes turn into constant HF sheen, or noise, or haze... Now, this is what happened on b 22 WITH nopae.
I removed it from boot.ini and No more sheen, or haze. However it should be noted, that though initial attack of short sounds was not lost, some slightest level of detail was gone. I'd say the loss is infinitesimal or probably even imagined.
On Van der Graaf Generator's Trisector, which is recorded almost ideal no loss occured. Such results. My opinion is Not to use /nopae. Had it since b 20
Serge.

Is it possible to have a bad copy of Windows XP Pro?, posted on April 16, 2009 at 03:29:27
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 My version is XP Professional Service Pack 2 (Build 2600). I also have SP3. Maybe I should try SP3 in an effort to fix the 'metallic' problem. Comments anyone?

RE: Is it possible to have a bad copy of Windows XP Pro?, posted on April 16, 2009 at 10:09:15
hanssatink
Audiophile

Posts: 65
Joined: September 13, 2008
 Do you use a Bufallo DAC?

If yes, try buffering C11 and C12 each with a low esr cap.
This tweak did help to get rid of 'metallic' sound
RE: Is it possible to have a bad copy of Windows XP Pro?, posted on April 16, 2009 at 11:56:38
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 no I want to get a buffalo but not until I solve my issue. right now I'm listening to juli@ analogue outs. I have a benchmark dac.

RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player, posted on April 9, 2009 at 02:27:58
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 27
Joined: November 27, 2007
 To my understanding 2 parameters are very importante

- the timing
- the power comsuption

HYPERX are good at timing but bad at power comsuption

Value Ram are quite good for the timing and very good for the power comsuption

The following can be good chose

KVR533D2N4/256
http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KVR533D2N4_256.pdf

KVR800D2N5/512
http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KVR800D2N5_512.pdf
cMP cPLAY and LINUX, posted on April 9, 2009 at 02:18:23
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 27
Joined: November 27, 2007
 Dear CICS,

I questionning myself about LINUX.

Don't you think that the total control of the operating system would be a very good advantage, the footprint could be reduce to its minimun.

I'm just a linux user but the information I can get from power user is that linux is used to creat a "real time critical embeded system", only the needed kernel componant are implemented. This could be a very good to run cMP cPLAY.

What is you thinking about that ?

Nicolas.

I think someone is running cPlay in Wine/Linux, posted on April 9, 2009 at 08:02:29
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 I doubt whether the B9 options would work under Linux.

Definitely worth trying - if it works, one could avoid Windows OS license costs. Comparing SQ with Windows XP would be useful as well.

RE: I think someone is running cPlay in Wine/Linux, posted on April 9, 2009 at 13:07:09
n_vincent
Audiophile

Posts: 27
Joined: November 27, 2007
 Wine increase the footprint, it's better to use windows directly.

Is the B9 options rely on windows xp capability ?

I was thinking about a lynux system like www.lynuxworks.com/rtos/rtos.php or others, By design it could help a lot about latency and jitter.

My thinking is not about licence costs only to audio quality.
Which RAM/processor? Also question on external storage?, posted on April 8, 2009 at 15:31:41
Apokalypse
Audiophile

Posts: 200
Location: Victoria
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I'm having some problems sourcing the parts that are recommended. For the RAM what would be a better choice out of these:

- KINGSTON Twin Pack HYPER X 2x1 gig (2gb) DDR2 800Mhz CL4 (1.8V 4-4-4-12)
- KINGSTON Twin Pack HYPER X 2x1 gig DDR2 (2gb) 800Mhz CL5 (2.0V 5-5-5-15)
- KINGSTON Twin Pack HYPER X 2x2 gig DDR2 (4gb) 800Mhz CL5 (1.8V 5-5-5-15)

Or possibly 2gb of 667Mhz Hyper X if I can find it?

What about the processor? I can't find an E7200. Would an E7400 be the equivalent?

Another question, is it possible to use an external HD with cplay? Wondering if I can store my music somewhere else to reduce HD noise.

Thanks for your help guys :)
Any E7xxx Processor will do. On RAM, use single stick at CL3/4 1.8V (256MB for 44.1k material else 512MB), posted on April 9, 2009 at 08:10:29
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Yes HDD can be stored externally using eSATA connection.

The good, bad, and ugly: reporting back to seger, Ryelands, cics, and Dawnrazor . . ., posted on April 6, 2009 at 17:00:04
DBB
Audiophile

Posts: 461
Location: NYC, USA
Joined: November 11, 2004
 As you remember, my issue was using JRiver.I am proceeding in small steps. I implemented the basic recommended Windows system changes and have been listening for a few days. I was surprised. I was expecting subtle changes but the resolution increased very noticeably. When using ASIO with the Lynx L22 before the changes, I found many recordings too detailed and sometimes fatiguing. It is a very resolving card to begin with. My system is also fairly resolving as well. I found that using direct sound with a DSP plugin (Audio Sandbox)has always worked the best for me. It softened the sound slightly and brought out the 3d hall ambiance nicely. The penalty was that I had to give up some resolution.

After the Windows system changes, the ASIO became extremely resolving. I can now hear many details, but the problem is that it includes the good, the bad, and the ugly. I could now hear tape hiss on many analogue recordings that I didn't notice before. I can hear intrusive groove noise on LP recordings that was less prominent before. Pages, turning, chairs, squeaking, faint coughs, all now there. I could probably hear Leonard Bernstein's pulse and stomach gurgling if I listened closely enough. Over time it is sharp and harsh. So, results so far, ASIO is now even less listenable.

But the good, is that the DSP with direct sound is even better than before because I am getting more resolution, but in a musical listenable way. I may stop here since I really doubt that I can get the system to sound any better. It now sounds detailed by a good increment (eg I can hear the overtones of the cello better)in addition to being solid, and very 3d, as it was with the DSP. On the other hand, it is so hard as an obsessive audiophile to leave it alone.

RE: The good, bad, and ugly: reporting back to seger, Ryelands, cics, and Dawnrazor . . ., posted on April 7, 2009 at 03:56:29
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 DBB wrote:

. . . before the changes, I found many recordings too detailed and sometimes fatiguing.

Thanks for your interesting report. I'm pleased you're happy with what you've done and think your approach is a good one - take from cMP2 what suits you and the way you like to listen.

That said, I'd argue that, if detail in a recording is "fatiguing" (and I know exactly what you mean), it's a sure sign that reproduction is not (or in your case was not) optimal.

Detail in music is not inherently fatiguing - we don't normally ask a string quartet to sit behind a curtain in case we get tired (though I've been minded to ask for a hat if sitting near the front when a tenor gets carried away).

At most venues, the nearer the band you get to sit, the more you have to pay. It can be tiring because it's too loud but that's a different matter. Venues such as London's Wigmore Hall are treasured by music lovers for their ability to make every nuance audible even to those sitting at the back, next to the sides, behind the dame with the big hat, etc.

However, I agree with you about spurious detail spoiling some recordings. Alas, when you improve your reproduction, it does seems that some favourites lose a little of their appeal.

But others take their place. The number of CDs that have "come alive" for me since I built a decent PC-audio system is very gratifying.

Dave

RE: The good, bad, and ugly: reporting back to seger, Ryelands, cics, and Dawnrazor . . ., posted on April 7, 2009 at 04:41:29
DBB
Audiophile

Posts: 461
Location: NYC, USA
Joined: November 11, 2004
 I like the hall analogy. I'm in NYC. Our two main orchestral concert halls are Avery Fisher Hall and Carnegie Hall. Avery Fisher depending on the seat is usually crystal clear but sometimes lacks warmth and resonance, and can even be harsh. Carnegie Hall is clear with no lack of detail, but balanced and warm. It seems to have kind of dark glow. I'm looking for the Carnegie Hall experience.

I feel I'm getting the best sound and access to my music with PC audio. For me the biggest single jump in quality was the use of DSP with the Lynx card. DSP is not exactly in fashion here. I rather have too much detail and look for ways of adjusting it, than too little. So the Lynx card works for me. I would be in a bigger hurry to try cMP if it wasn't a potential impediment to using JRiver conveniently.

RE: The good, bad, and ugly: reporting back to seger, Ryelands, cics, and Dawnrazor . . ., posted on April 10, 2009 at 09:24:17
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Dbb,

I think seger is right about things being non optimal and that detail is not a bad thing when things are optimal.

What bios changes have you done? COuld you underclock? Are things fanless?

Also, what kind of power are you feeding the computer? DId you get the granite supply and are you using it to power the hdd. I hope you are using sata.

Recently I lost the magic mostly because I moved things around and when I connected it back up I had the granite supply connected to a cheap computer powerstrip. Before I had it into my counterpoint pac5. It was the "dirty" psu so I thought it didnt matter. Well I was wrong, and putting it back into the pac5 really helped.

My hunch is that the drives or power or both are hurting things, and fans too if you have them. So try doing as much of the hardware things too.

And I was thinking a bit about the gui. If you could sort by composer, conductor, and album, would that be enough?
RE: The good, bad, and ugly: reporting back to seger, Ryelands, cics, and Dawnrazor . . ., posted on April 13, 2009 at 05:50:20
DBB
Audiophile

Posts: 461
Location: NYC, USA
Joined: November 11, 2004
 I only did the three Windows system changes, which I thought would be very modest. I don't think I'll start with hardware changes anytime soon. I ended up swapping some cable around, I removed the silver cable from the position directly into the amp and replaced it with a good copper cable which was in my pre amp. The sound is now back closer to where I want it. I did some A/B testing against vinyl. It is close, but still lacks that last bit of solidity and weight of vinyl. I thing there is probably a slight net improvement from the windows changes, but I might have come full circle. Have you a/b'd your system against vinyl? I think that is the ultimate test.

Sorting by composer, conductor, and album would not work that well. I rarely listen to music by album. I could use album as a misnomer for work, but that still would not be enough. I need composer, work, performing artists, and genre. I also like a category for source, ie LP, and sample rate. A further problem, is even if cPlay had all these custom features tomorrow, it would probably take a year's work in the evening to get it set up.
RE: The good, bad, and ugly: reporting back to seger, Ryelands, cics, and Dawnrazor . . ., posted on April 14, 2009 at 00:52:40
Bibo01
Audiophile

Posts: 119
Joined: December 18, 2008
 DBB,

I have a similar set-up as yours and I intend to use J River, at least at the beginnig. Can you please tell me which Windows mods you made?
Thanks

RE: The good, bad, and ugly: reporting back to seger, Ryelands, cics, and Dawnrazor . . ., posted on April 15, 2009 at 06:48:32
DBB
Audiophile

Posts: 461
Location: NYC, USA
Joined: November 11, 2004
 I did just a few changes that are described at page 27. I replied more specifically to your email.

RE: The good, bad, and ugly: reporting back to seger, Ryelands, cics, and Dawnrazor . . ., posted on April 13, 2009 at 11:49:06
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Dave,

If you can get the granites installed which is pretty easy and cheap at $20 a pop, I think that would help you a lot with the sound, especially if you can get the usb connections powered this way too.

Even if you chose not to do that, getting the drives powered off the granites is a plug and play affair.
RE: The good, bad, and ugly: reporting back to seger, Ryelands, cics, and Dawnrazor . . ., posted on April 13, 2009 at 06:53:03
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 JRiver with WASAPI in Vista would probably be your cup of tea - with as many customisations a la cics as you can do short of cMP. It will only improve the musicality of the sound, not make it harsher. Also, you will not lose any of the functionality you need, and the system will be lighter. You won't need more than 1GB RAM. Here's the post about setting up Vista I mentioned in an earlier post: Vista Setup

RE: The good, bad, and ugly: reporting back to seger, Ryelands, cics, and Dawnrazor . . ., posted on April 13, 2009 at 10:02:37
DBB
Audiophile

Posts: 461
Location: NYC, USA
Joined: November 11, 2004
 Hello seger:

Thanks for the link. How close would you say this is to the sound of vinyl, if you have had a chance to compare. The reason I ask is because the Lynx card works so well for me that I feel I am already close to my ideal. Its that last 2% of vinyl-like weight, ease, and smoothness that I would like to squeeze out from digital.

David
RE: The good, bad, and ugly: reporting back to seger, Ryelands, cics, and Dawnrazor . . ., posted on April 13, 2009 at 12:31:48
seger
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Joined: October 30, 2007
 I'm not able to make a fair comparison. That last 2% you speak of may be in the realm of personal taste, so only you can find it by experimenting. What you gain with pc audio is the freedom from the noise of vinyl as grooves and needles suffer wear and tear, and the convenience of having all your music a click or two away, but you are probably right that the naturalness and richness of vinyl is the ideal digital audio aims for. My suggestion was based on your post - I don't think you'll be happy with the limitations of the cMP or cPlay UI, and I thought the JRiver wasapi presentation might suit you as it is quite rich and full. And if the DSP you spoke of works in Vista, you could play with that as well. Try some different things, and let us know what you hear.

Give cPlay a try - you can simply play the actual wav or flac file directly, posted on April 6, 2009 at 22:28:42
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 It would be interesting to see how the detail is presented.

Current measurements on powersupply P4 pin, posted on April 6, 2009 at 09:19:02
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 For those who want too place smoothing caps on the power supply line to smoothen the ripple voltage.

When placing smoothing caps, one needs to know (or guess) the current and the estimated ripple voltage on that supply line. The ripple voltage can be found in product reviews on the www. The actual working current has to be measured.

In some posts I saw measurements of the current on the P4 pin of about 0.7 amp when working. And 1 amp during boot and startup.
I found these mentioned currents very high. So I measured them myself.

Mobo: Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L Bios F9
Intel: E7200 core2duo CPU ratio: 7 Busspeed: 160 CPU voltage: 1.0000 Volt

Readings when playing music:

Foobar2000
SRC 96000 0,35 - 0,36 amp
SoX 96000 0,26 - 0,27 amp
PPHS 96000 0,25 - 0,26 amp
--- 44100 0,24 - 0,25 amp

cPlay
SCR 96000 0,29 - 0,32 amp
--- 44100 0,24 amp

When CPU voltage is lowered to 0,90000 volt than all readings are 0,04 amps less.

Playing dvd’s with GOM player uses 0,27 – 0,29 amp.


How the measurements were done:
A NAIM Hicap acts as 24 Volt power supply.
The 24 volt is fed into a dc-dc adapter to make it 12 volt.
Then this 12 volt is fed in to a DC-DC ATX power Supply
(http://www.mini-box.com/PW-200M-DC-DC-power-supply)
The PW-200m only powers the processor through the P4 pin.
The multimeter was placed between the HICAP and the 24/12 dc-dc adapter.

Other power sources while the PC was working:
The mobo pin20/24 pin is powered by an Antec EarthWatts 430.
Sphericals (HDD, USB-ports, DVD, etc.) are powered from an external PC power supply outside the PC-case. (In: ac 230 V, Out: dc ± 50 W, 5 V / 3 A, 12 V / 3 A). I don’t mind DC wires inside my PC. But I definitely do not like 230 Volt AC wires inside the PC near mobo, soundcard, etc. So I didn’t choose the granite mini power supplies.

The PC is calibrated according the art of building computer transports except for:
- the network is still working
- the video is still working (1920 x 1080 ) and displaying too Sony Bravia KDL-32W4000
- EIST function is off. Corresponding XP power settings are also off.

ESI juli@ or LynxL22 dig i/o -> Lavry Black DA10 -> Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300

RE: Current measurements on powersupply P4 pin, posted on April 6, 2009 at 12:25:52
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 hfavandepas wrote:

In some posts, I saw measurements of the current on the P4 pin of about 0.7 amp when working. And 1 amp during boot and startup. I found these mentioned currents very high. So I measured them myself.

The only reported measurements of CPU current draw on this list in recent months that I know of have been mine so I assume it's these you are referring to. If so, your report is not quite accurate. In January, I wrote:

“I repeated . . . the measurements I did of the current drawn by the E7200 chip [on the G31 motherboard]. On power up, it draws about 1.5 amps. As ‘underclocked’ BIOS settings kick in during POST, this falls to about 0.6 amps. Once the OS is loaded and while playing music (with a NOS DAC), the chip draws between 0.4 and 0.5 amps or between five and six watts."

The meter I used was an old Avometer DVM 2001 with 1000-milliamp (ma) and 10-amp ranges. For obvious reasons, I started on the 10 amp range, saw the 1.5 power-on peak and, well, left it there.

In the light of your post, I dug out my other meter, a rather newer Fluke 8060 with a 2000 ma range, making it safe for this test.

I'm using a 12 volt linear supply to drive the CPU (and a "pico-processor" à la mode GStew for the P24 line). Except that I use a USB NOS DAC (so no soundcard) and run at 140 MHz and a nominal Vcore of 0.75, I think the systems are comparable.

I repeated my tests using the Fluke on its 2000 ma scale. The current peaked soon after power-up for about 30 seconds at around 1500/1600 ma (though it went off the scale on one occasion), falling by degrees to settle at 330/340 ma when playing.music.

This figures seems much the same as yours though I confess I'm less willing than you to place confidence in figures showing tiny differences when doing this or that.

The difference between my January measurements and the ones I've just done I'd put down to

1. Using a different meter on a different scale - a 10-amp scale is always going to be rough. I was happy enough to get any data at the time as I couldn't find anything else anywhere else and all I wanted was a ball-park figure. I got one.

2. Since taking those measurements, I've changed a deal of settings and no longer recall what is different between the two setups. The measurements are broadly in line with each other, much the same as yours and adequate for purpose.

What might be of interest is that if you set Vcore to "Normal" (i.e. 1.5 volts or about double what I used above), the system settles at 1070 ma when playing the same track as above. In short, setting Vcore with care can cut the current draw by almost two-thirds – not to be sneezed at.

Best

Dave
What VID are you using to get Vcore of 0.75V (and host @140)? Noticed that with EIST off, VID can go lower! nt, posted on April 7, 2009 at 23:11:59
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 .

RE: What VID are you using to get Vcore of 0.75V (and host @140)? Noticed that with EIST off, VID can go lower! nt, posted on April 8, 2009 at 01:02:25
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 cics wrote:

What VID are you using to get Vcore of 0.75V (and host @140)? Noticed that with EIST off, VID can go lower!

Now that you pin me down, I have to say that I'm not sure what VID is in this context and my note may have been muddled as a result.

Whatever, in the BIOS's MIT menu, there is a setting for CPU Voltage Control. This is set to 0.75000. (Just below that is a note that the "normal" CPU Vcore is 1.15 v.)

With this setting (I've just checked), CPU-Z reports that Vcore is 0.704 but I have also noticed that the BIOS menu "PC Health Status" says that it is 0.724.

I know what VID is in general terms but as to exactly what these figures mean and which Vcore reading is right, I've no idea.

I have run the board with CPU Voltage Control set as low as 0.65 but, especially when cold, it tended to restore defaults on powering up so I settled on 0.75 and left it at that. (Some report SQ differences after making minute changes to CPU Voltage Control but I can't hear any.)

I have a hunch you're right about things being more stable with EIST off but I've not tested it systematically.

Dave

RE: What VID are you using to get Vcore of 0.75V (and host @140)? Noticed that with EIST off, VID can go lower! nt, posted on April 8, 2009 at 10:30:00
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 VID is an 8 bit code set from BIOS to CPU. Each VID reference relates to Vcc specifications as per Intel. You have VID of 0.75000 set - I'm currently testing 0.73750 (lower values are unstable). The "normal voltage" BIOS message is a CPU setting (each is set by Intel). I have one E7200 at 1.15 and another at 1.21 (which does 0.83750).

Can you measure overall power consumption using your fluke on main 12V supply to P24 & P4 (i.e. use one PSU).

RE: What VID are you using to get Vcore of 0.75V (and host @140)? Noticed that with EIST off, VID can go lower! nt, posted on April 9, 2009 at 04:15:32
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 cics wrote:

Can you measure overall power consumption using your fluke on main 12V supply to P24 & P4 (i.e. use one PSU).


Just to be absolutely clear, the figure below refers to the Gigabyte G21 MoBo.

When playing flac-format music data without upsampling with the CPU clock at 140MHz, VID at 0.75000, PSU at precisely 12v, EIST off, 512 MB Kingston "ValueRAM" and a "Full Monty" cMP2 setup, the motherboard and CPU typically draw about 1630 ma.

Allowing for dissipation in the "pico-PSU", call it 1600 ma or about 19 watts. Last time I measured this, it came out slightly higher (see cics's earlier request for this measurement). I don't think I've tweaked anything significant in the meantime but, as the first measurement was taken with a different meter on its 10 amp scale, I'd tend to put more faith in this one.

BTW, after a tedious to-and-fro session, it's clear that my setup at least sounds better with EIST OFF. Who'd have believed it mattered?

That'll do me for current measurement for a while - it seems oddly emotive for such a humdrum topic.

Best

Dave

RE: What VID are you using to get Vcore of 0.75V (and host @140)? Noticed that with EIST off, VID can go lower! nt, posted on April 9, 2009 at 07:57:55
cics
Audiophile

Posts: 1099
Joined: November 9, 2006
 Thanks.

Got SQ improvement with VID 0.73750 (Vc as per CPU-Z shows 0.704V). As expected, CPU temperature dropped nicely by 4-6°C. Now testing VID 0.73125 (Vc is 0.688V) which is the lowest stable VID in my case.

Setting Host Freq to 150 and upsampling to 192k @145db SNR should yield overall power consumption below 20W (with 256MB RAM)!

RE: Current measurements on powersupply P4 pin, posted on April 7, 2009 at 09:07:24
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi dave,

Since we have the same mobo and processor it’s interesting to compare these measurements.
On my system when booting the current on the P4 pin in my setup is between 0,32 and 0,37 amp with one short peak at 0,40 amp. When the boot process has ended and windows is at rest than the current on P4 is 0,20 amps. (With Bios at: CPU ratio: 7 Busspeed: 160 CPU voltage: 1,0000 Volt)

You’re reading are; 1,5 amp at power up, then go down too 0,6 amps and while playing music you’re reading are about 0,4 – 0,5 amps on your system.

May be I’m not doing my measurements properly, but your readings are twice as high as my readings. I think that’s surprising.

So are there any other inmates who did some current measurements?

Best
Mark

Data:
Foobar2000 in optimized XP setup:
SRC 96000 0,35 - 0,36 amp
SoX 96000 0,26 - 0,27 amp
PPHS 96000 0,25 - 0,26 amp
--- 44100 0,24 - 0,25 amp
cPlay in optimized XP setup (note: not in cMP enviroment)
SCR 96000 0,29 - 0,32 amp
--- 44100 0,24 amp

When CPU voltage is lowered to 0,90000 volt than all readings are 0,04 amps less

LynxL22 dig i/o -> Lavry Black DA10 -> Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300

RE: Current measurements on powersupply P4 pin, posted on April 7, 2009 at 10:53:54
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 hfavandepas wrote:

. . . your readings are twice as high as my readings.

Sorry, but I don't see how you reach that conclusion. Yesterday, I wrote:

"The current peaked soon after power-up for about 30 seconds at around 1500/1600 ma (though it went off the scale on one occasion), falling by degrees to settle at 330/340 ma when playing.music."

You report readings ranging from 240 to 360 ma. From where I'm sitting, the steady-state (i.e. while playing music) values are pretty much the same.

I repeated the measurements today (I'd left the meter in place.) The steady-state reading has fallen to 320 ma. I'm not getting excited about that - it's a difference of three per cent. (It could be up to 350 ma tomorrow, making it +/- 3%. I'd be delighted if my meter - it's a good one - is accurate to +/- 2% when reading current.)

The 1500 ma peak on a cold restart was still to be seen today, though not for so long. Presumably that's because I'd left the BIOS at clock=140 MHz; Vcore=0.75v. (I wasn't expecting a "Spanish Inquisition".)

You'll see only a short peak if you do a warm restart. To test it properly, you need to store your settings, put the BIOS back to defaults and do a cold start. Then, if you don't get a peak roughly comparable to mine, something funny IS going on.

Whatever, the values you report all lie, give or take, within +/- 100 ma of mine - some are higher, some lower.

(What I didn't report yesterday was that I get a short peak of ~400 ma at the start of each track, presumably as cPlay decodes flac data.)

You don't say what scale you are using (though your data is in amps) or suggest the calibre of your meter. If you are using a 10-amp range, I'd be a little concerned about the accuracy of readings so close to the low end of a low-resolution scale.

You report 0.24 amps running cPlay at 44.1. Are you sure? That's less than three watts - judging by the way it eats batteries, I have a (OK, OK, it's very old) calculator that seems to need more than that.

Seriously, these are very informal "experiments". We have different meters (neither, I'd hazard, recently calibrated) possibly on different scales; neither of us recorded the temperatures of the CPU or the meter or checked how long the device has been running. We are running different software on a different configuration with different target data, etc etc.

I confess I haven't a clue as to how normal manufacturing tolerances might be reflected in crude tests like these.

I just don't see any "Eureka" moments coming from comparing these data - they seem pretty well in line. In short, we can report with reasonable confidence that an under-clocked E7200 chip draws between quarter and half an amp from the P4 line when playing music.

Anything else risks reading into the data what is not there.

Best

Dave

let's skip this discussion. This is going nowhere. RE: Current measurements on powersupply P4 pin, posted on April 7, 2009 at 13:28:59
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Dave,

Lets skip this discussion.

Somehow you feel offended or annoyed if somebody else is posting data that is not inline with yours. You also don’t seem to have any interest if there are other inmates who performed current measurements on the P4 pin.

Every body can read our former posts and draw there own conclusions based on that. Or even better: perform there own current measurements.

LynxL22 dig i/o -> Lavry Black DA10 -> Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300

RE: let's skip this discussion. This is going nowhere. RE: Current measurements on powersupply P4 pin, posted on April 7, 2009 at 15:28:12
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
 hfavandepas wrote:

Somehow you feel offended or annoyed if somebody else is posting data that is not inline with yours.

I'm not offended (or even annoyed) that you did the measurements - this list is short on empirical data. My point was that, on examination, the two "data sets" were in fact pretty much the same and that the differences you claim to have noted were based on (twice) misreading what I'd reported. What's your beef with that?

What did disappoint me was that you seemed to have done the measurements sloppily and then implied that the fault was mine. Why not, instead of throwing a hissy fit, answer my queries?

You also don’t seem to have any interest if there are other inmates who performed current measurements on the P4 pin.

You could be right - what consenting adults do in private with their P4 pins doesn't interest me. However, I did, a while back, report some data for ripple voltages in the context of adding smoothing caps to MoBo power supplies. Bill (Old Listener) pointed out that my figures were way different from those on respected review sites and queried if I had done them properly. I did them again them and found that I had been sloppy - Bill was right and I was wrong. Why don't you try and do the same?

Meantime, skip the abuse.

Dave

case closed, posted on April 7, 2009 at 16:48:05
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Dave,

All I did was mentioning that in past I had read a post on: current measurements on the P4 pin.

I wrote:
“ In some posts I saw measurements of the current on the P4 pin of about 0.7 amp when working. And 1 amp during boot and startup. I found these mentioned currents very high. So I measured them myself. “

I did this by heart. But my memory wasn’t far off.

Your post:
Posted by Ryelands on December 27, 2008 at 11:06:42
………..
Incidentally, it also makes it easy (ish) directly to measure the CPU’s current draw, something I’ve never seen reported (though I’m sure it’s done often enough). So far, I’ve measured it only briefly and only on the 65nm Biostar board.

I had assumed it would vary wildly but it was surprisingly stable: an E1200 processor drew 1.4 amps on power-up and during POST but, as the OS loaded, it dropped to and stayed at between 0.7 and 0.8 amps and rose again by about 100 milliamps when running cPlay (without upsampling).
………..

Since I found these mentioned currents very high (for my Gibabyte GA-G31M-S2L mobo + E7200 processor), I decided to measure the currents on my P4 pin myself and also post the results on this forum.

So owners of a Biostar board + E1200 processor can use your readings.
And owners of a GA-G31M-S2L + E7200 processor can use my readings.
No more, no less.

After that you jump on me with pretty strong language and lengthy discussions on a wide variety of topics. The rest one can read in the former episodes of this post.

I now consider this case / post closed.

LynxL22 dig i/o -> Lavry Black DA10 -> Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300

RE: Current measurements on powersupply P4 pin, posted on April 6, 2009 at 12:10:23
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 1789
Location: NE usa
Joined: November 4, 2000
 do you run a cpu fan or are you using a fanless cooler? if so which one

if you can, get rid of the processor fan. :-) RE: Current measurements on powersupply P4 pin, posted on April 6, 2009 at 15:48:02
hfavandepas
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: Rotterdam
Joined: February 9, 2009
 Hi Theo,

I use a fanless cooler. This one:
http://www.nexustek.nl/NXS-LOW-7000_silent-7cm-high-CPU-Cooler.htm .
From which I detached the fan part.

If I remember correctly I red in one of your posts lately, that you still use your processor fan.
If you run your processor at voltages lower than 1.0000 volt and you also under-clock, then I would go for fanless.
It made an improvement in SQ in my setup.

Some background:
At first, I ran the E7300 processor a few weeks with the original cooler that came with the processor.
I couldn’t find the type of fanless cooler that Cics shows in his AOB manual. And when I finally did find it, I found it horribly expensive.
But in those few weeks I had seen that, when under-volted and under clocked, the CPU doesn’t run hot. So I decided that other cooler models with enough heatpipes and a large exchange surface, probably also would do the job.

Very strange discovery:
There was an improvement in sound quality, when I changed from the original cooler too the fanless cooler.
The strange part is: …… I never powered the original coolerfan from the mobo. While using the original fan for a few weeks, I powered the original coolerfan from the second external PSU that also powers the HDD, USB, DVD. So I expected to find no difference in sound quality when removing the orginal fan. Because it wasn’t powered by the mobo, but powered by the second external PSU.

Somewhat strange:
This couldn’t be repeated with the coolerfan in my Zahlman ZM600-HP PSU.
Running the Zahlman coolerfan from the second PSU also made a little improvement in SQ.
But completely removing the fan from the PSU unit (just like removing the fan from the processor) didn’t make any further improvements in SQ.

So if you can, get rid of the processor fan.
:-)
Even though the processor coolerfan was powered by a second external PSU, the original fan and the processor ‘didn’t like each other’ in my setup.

ESI juli@ or LynxL22 dig i/o -> Lavry Black DA10 -> Mogami Gold -> Klein & Hummel O300

RE: what am i doing wrong with cMP and Foobar?, posted on April 3, 2009 at 18:47:40
audiogremlin
Audiophile

Posts: 181
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: October 10, 2006
 I editted the second line to load foobar instead of cPlay as directed in the guide and as directed by other users. When I double click the cMP shortcut to start cMP, it starts but I have no idea what to do once the cMP interface starts up. Isn't it suppose to automatically start Foobar? Am I suppose to manually load it?

RE: what am i doing wrong with cMP and Foobar?, posted on April 3, 2009 at 22:01:06
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 With Cmp running, the selected player only plays when you select an album in cmp.

Basically it functions as content management and you select another player to play the song.

In a very general sense it is like clicking on the cue file in an explorer window or say the my music folder, and this brings up the default player. It is just that cmp replaces explorer and when you select the albums it show, it brings up the player.

Any luck with media monkey?
RE: what am i doing wrong with cMP and Foobar?, posted on April 4, 2009 at 12:13:28
audiogremlin
Audiophile

Posts: 181
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: October 10, 2006
 MediaMonkey definitely worked better than dBPowerAmp. There were no wrap-around errors.

I finally figured out what cPlay didn't like about my cue files. cMP with Foobar gave more helpful errors and I was able to find out that cPlay didn't like the c:\music in my path. It also did not like any cue sheet that had an extra space at the end of the sheet.

cMP and cPlay are working now and it was definitely worth the effort.

Thanks.

Got cPlay to play 192 via firewire with Asio4All but not cMP2, posted on April 3, 2009 at 11:55:56
riboge
Audiophile

Posts: 263
Joined: June 25, 2008
 Starting from cMP in xp mode selecting a cuesheet opens cPlay with "Asio" in the bottom left which in a few seconds changes to "Media" but hangs there and one must restart the computer.
Solved, posted on April 9, 2009 at 11:20:08
riboge
Audiophile

Posts: 263
Joined: June 25, 2008