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HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall

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Posted on December 6, 2014 at 07:14:27
Mercman
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I noticed this comment form Chris at CA concerning the HDPlex used in his new computer design:

"The power supply I’m using for the CAPS v4 Pipeline server is an HDPlex Linear Power Supply ($358) in combination with the HDPlex 250W Internal DC-ATX PSU ($85). Once the power hits the motherboard there isn’t much any of us can do to clean it up. However, using a linear supply for the main power and the USB card power we can effectively create a barrier of clean power around the server. The linear supply won’t feed the typical switching noise back into the power line and on to the audio components and the same linear supply feeding the USB card will make sure the direct connection to the audio system is as clean as possible. In other words, it’s like a moat of clean power surrounding the dirty PC power."

While the HDPlex will block some noise, it is not totally effective in blocking high frequency digital noise.

It does look like Chris did a very nice job on his new computer design and should be commended.

 

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Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 6, 2014 at 07:50:03
fmak
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That's right. My experience is that there are at least 2 firewalls.

Power the ATX separately from the P4 and power HDDs separately from independent 5V regulated supplies. It seems that feedbacks from SSDs into the power rails are quite significant.

The effects can be quite astonishing. And there is also the issue of grounds. I now ground all the heat sinks in my PC as well.

I shall try a new Teradak linear ATX with another P4 12V supply later in the year when it arrives.

The price of the HDPlex is ridiculous for what it is. My Teradak ATX 175W linear only costs $550 or so. Details on CA.

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 6, 2014 at 08:02:27
Thorsten
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Hi,

The whole issue of Linear vs. Switched Mode supplies is supremely occulted and obscured in high end audio.

Generally there is a tendency to go for "belly-feel, blackwhite" (see Orwell 1984) and uncritical duckspeak of "linear good, switched mode bad".

This does not help a complex topic.

For example, linear supplies contain resonant systems formed by the mains transformers parasitic inductance, rectifiers capacitance and other parasitics. These circuits produce substantial amounts of burts of HF noise in 100/120Hz intervals. This noise can be as large or larger than that "kicked back" into the mains by a switched mode supply designed for audio use and with sufficient filtering on the mains side.

The latest generations of switched mode supplies use a variety of techniques (e.g. valley switching, resonant mode) that aggressively minimise EMI and noise at the source. Employing some basic "audiophile" ideas in an SMPS (e.g. a well implemented film bypass on the main high voltage input cap) can reduce noise dramatically.

By their very design requirements to pass EMI SMPS's rarely conduct EMI/RFI across the power supply, most linear supplies may as well be transparent to anything above a few 100Hz.

Of course, low end, "commodity" type SMPS often have filtering that is totally inadequate on both input and output and are noisy as heck, but that is not because they are SMPS per se, but simply because they are made as cheap as possible.

Given the same budget at the design point I find that using a well designed SMPS gives lower noise on both sides than a linear supply. Of course most SMPS start with a budget that is 1/10th or less of that which would be needed to produce a most basic and cheap linear supply. Such SMPS's work in that they provide power and pass EMI Agency Requirements, but they do little else.

Coming full circle, modern PC's, streamers etc whatever are full of local Switched Mode Supplies that power some part of the circuit, often they are even designed into chip's themselves.

Adding a linear supply to such systems may make things worse than using a decent SMPS, it may make it different, or sometimes even genuinely better. But it is NOT because "the evil SMPS has been removed", because it has not...

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 6, 2014 at 08:13:54
Mercman
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Thanks for your excellent insight on this issue Thorsten.

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 6, 2014 at 08:30:38
soundchekk
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One day people will realize that e.g. a Raspberry Pi just needs a simple good quality and easy to manage 5V supply. Hook the RPI up to an Anker 10000mAh battery for the begining. That'll do.
That'll beat any Christ Conneker supply or Super High End power filter out there by a large margin @ a fragment of cost for computer and supply (60$ for both).

Your data you source over the network.

Remember:
You just need to get some bits out of a computer/transport.
Even my Raspberry Pi currently uses 0.3% of its processing power for streaming the data towards the DAC.

A PC is a total overkill!!!

I can promise you, that any highly complex PC, with highly complex power supplies and 100.000 sources of distortions, incl. OSses which get stripped down to the bones, OSes which never meant to be driven that way is the worst way to go...


Enjoy.



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Your iFi super wall wart, posted on December 6, 2014 at 08:40:13
fmak
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doesn't sound any good and breaks down within 2 hours.

Looking inside, it is way too complex for a 'low cost' wart.

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 6, 2014 at 09:53:32
AbeCollins
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Agree. The whole Liner Power Supply chant is over rated. If one of the goals is to keep EMI/RFI out of the mains, a good power conditioner can be a better choice.



 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 6, 2014 at 09:54:48
Mercman
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In fact, the HDPlex sounds best connected to the Shunyata Hydra DCP-6 for digital components, computers.

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 6, 2014 at 10:02:44
AbeCollins
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Hook the RPI up to an Anker 10000mAh battery for the begining. That'll do.

But that battery is a 'switcher'. It outputs 5v by using a 3.7v Li battery and a switching boost converter module.... as do most 5v USB batteries.



 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 6, 2014 at 10:04:41
Ryelands
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The whole Liner [sic] Power Supply chant is over rated.

Though I agree with him that linear power supplies typically do an awful lot of unwanted switching (it's not exactly news), TL's argument is in fact tautological and thus not very helpful.

As we say to each other down here in the servants' quarters at Logic Towers, RTFTA.

Best

D

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 6, 2014 at 10:43:43
soundchekk
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Yep. Youre right.

How many switchers do you think you'll find inside a PC?

You won't face any groundloops.

The Anker is for sure not the best solution. At 25$ it's IMO a good start.

Cheers

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RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 6, 2014 at 10:59:34
AbeCollins
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Good point about ground loops.

How many switchers do you think you'll find inside a PC?

Too many to bother approaching the noise issue with an outboard Linear Power Supply feeding all those internal onboard switchers. ;-)

 

Like n/t, posted on December 6, 2014 at 12:01:09
Ugly
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RE: Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 6, 2014 at 13:07:12
Tony Lauck
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" It seems that feedbacks from SSDs into the power rails are quite significant."

Can you see the effect with your scope?



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 6, 2014 at 21:40:50
fmak
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My Tektronix is broken at present, needs power supply fix. The digital scopes I have do not have the same trigger capability as the Tek and is a hassle to use.

I hear very marked (more so than other things) changes in SQ and improvement when separating; nearly as much as isolating P4 which I am think should not be used to power HDD as a 'common' rail.

 

RPI also needs, posted on December 6, 2014 at 22:50:43
fmak
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a clock mod first.

 

Insight, posted on December 7, 2014 at 00:08:18
fmak
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When is insight unbalanced statement or propaganda?

You seem to subscribe to all of it when posted by a manufacturer or designer

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 7, 2014 at 00:12:34
Bob_C
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"Agree. The whole Liner Power Supply chant is over rated. If one of the goals is to keep EMI/RFI out of the mains, a good power conditioner can be a better choice."

But it is not just what is fed back in the AC lines but what goes on in the computer. Mr. T's post is exelent, but have you investigated better switching supplies, or are you just saying this because you have a MAC with a pretty basic switcher and can't do anything about it. The supply in the MAC can be improved on. In the case of the MAC mini a linear supply is a clear improvement. I do not know of any better switchers, do you know of any?

 

RE: Very cool nt, posted on December 7, 2014 at 00:13:44
Bob_C
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nt

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 7, 2014 at 00:19:08
AbeCollins
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In the case of the MAC mini a linear supply is a clear improvement.

Have you tried a Linear Supply on a Mac Mini yourself?


I do not know of any better switchers, do you know of any?

Better switchers than what? For Mac Mini?



 

RE: Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 7, 2014 at 00:20:40
Bob_C
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"I shall try a new Teradak linear ATX with another P4 12V supply later in the year when it arrives.

The price of the HDPlex is ridiculous for what it is. My Teradak ATX 175W linear only costs $550 or so. Details on CA."

Looking forward to the results. I did not get one, but it looks like an excellent supply. Ordered the filters you posted. Can't go wrong for $25.

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 7, 2014 at 00:24:09
Bob_C
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No I am not using the MAC anymore but from what read the consensuses is a better supply is a clear improvement.

Yes I was speaking of better/ aftermarket switchers for the MAC.

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 7, 2014 at 00:38:51
Bob_C
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Steve,

Yes it was a nice writeup, but honestly it is what a heck of allot of people have been doing for a while. On JPlay, servers boards and Ecc memory are the norm. I use Intel server boards for music, but I do have SuperMicro boards as file servers. They are good boards, just never bothered setting one up as a music system.

Chris has also moved away from the lower wattage CPUs, which can be debatable. At idle there might actually not be much difference in current draw, but he has taken it in a different direction. Guess it is to make sure the JRiver up sampling will work.

 

RE: Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 7, 2014 at 01:08:11
AbeCollins
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How did you fry your Tek scope?

Do you realize that the ground clip on your probe is mains earth referenced via the BNC on your scope through the IEC AC connector? That can be a problem depending on how you probe around within a piece of gear.

A mains isolation transformer on the device under test, or a differential probe, may have saved your bacon.

Probing around where you shouldn't will surely blow up your scope.



 

Have you ever, posted on December 7, 2014 at 01:19:24
fmak
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opened one of these cut price batteries to have a look inside?

 

Don't be stupid, posted on December 7, 2014 at 01:21:29
fmak
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it is an aged power supply

 

RE: Have you ever, posted on December 7, 2014 at 01:25:47
AbeCollins
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opened one of these cut price batteries to have a look inside?

What do you think we're talking about. Did you miss it?

Those batteries are actually ~3.7v Li with a switching boost regulator to 5v. However, they will isolate the device from ground loops with other gear in the setup, depending on the other I/O.



 

RE: Don't be stupid, posted on December 7, 2014 at 01:30:10
AbeCollins
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Does that make it better, like wine.... until it goes completely bad? ;-)



 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 7, 2014 at 02:01:57
AbeCollins
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No I am not using the MAC anymore but from what read the consensuses is a better supply is a clear improvement.

So the answer is NO, you have not tried it personally.

I substituted an outboard linear power supply into my older Mac Mini. It came with an outboard switching power 'brick'. The lab linear power supply made no audible difference.

However, running that same Mac Mini via the PS Audio P300 AC power regenerator / conditioner did make a slight difference.

I suppose I could try my current Mini on outboard DC power but I'd have to cut into it. The newer Mac Minis require basic +12vdc.

Some people seem to think that feeding DC into a PC via a linear power supply is somehow going to magically eliminate noise that is generated by all the onboard switchers and high speed logic. It doesn't work that way.

More than likely, the linear power supply is just better at reducing noise going back into mains because the cheap stock switcher was so bad. Similar results can be obtained with a good power conditioner.


 

RE: Insight, posted on December 7, 2014 at 03:17:36
Mercman
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I appreciate technical discussions from people like Thorsten. The actual application of this knowledge is a separate issue.

 

RE: Insight-when, posted on December 7, 2014 at 04:44:41
fmak
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a post negates what you have heard and is shrouded in techno terms whose relevance to your situation is doubtful, can you not make up your own mind wrt to its validity?

 

RE: Insight-when, posted on December 7, 2014 at 04:56:46
Mercman
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Sure I have made up my mind. I went on record stating that I preferred the HDPlex power supply over the wall wart supplied with the iPower. I have another friend with an excellent system that was very impressed with the improvement the HDPlex provided with the iPower.

The difference between you and me Fred is that I don't need to denigrate Thorsten for his design. After all, the cost was only $200 and this includes dealer mark-up.

The fact is, I honestly evaluated the iPower and came to conclusions that other reviewers, save for Michael Lavorgna,did not reach.

 

'tis the crux of the matter..., posted on December 7, 2014 at 05:32:49
Thorsten
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Hi,

> If one of the goals is to keep EMI/RFI out of the mains,
> a good power conditioner can be a better choice.

Yes, they key is to understand the requirements of the situation to attain a reliable improvement and to then apply the most (cost) efficient way to answer the requirements. And for the goal you stated your suggested remedy is indeed the appropriate technology, though some small extra modifications to the SMPS to reduce problems at the source also may be a good choice for those who can apply them.

Those who refuse to gain sufficient understanding of the matter and keep insisting that there is no need to understand and know what is going on and that following folk tales is a more reliable way to get improvement are like the blind men of Indoostan and at least as argumentative.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 7, 2014 at 05:35:27
fmak
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that I try to be honest, and I don't depend on manufacturers to provide samples for review.

If you made up your mind on the merits of your HDPlex, why suck up to a post to the contrary which is shrouded in techno justifications?

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 7, 2014 at 05:45:55
Mercman
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I didn't suck up to him. I appreciated his response in general terms. I didn't look at it as it applied to the iPower SMPS. Was the content of his explanation incorrect Fred?

 

If , posted on December 7, 2014 at 07:07:48
fmak
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I designed and made something, I would need to be sure that it is superior before I get on a platform proclaiming it's virtues above those of other approaches.

It seems that in a forum like this, any claim can be made and this can be accepted without qualification as you appear to be doing.

This is the difference in terms of professional technical practice. The correctness of what was said needed clear qualifications on how and where, and what type of design in each case are being compared.

As a generality, what was said did not carry any meaning in relation to sound quality in audio.

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 7, 2014 at 07:38:30
Ryelands
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Was the content of his explanation incorrect Fred?

There's content and content. As I suggested below, I don't doubt for a moment that TL's technical points are correct but his argument is neither right nor wrong: it's logically flawed.

Example 1. Premise A:
By their very design requirements to pass EMI SMPS's rarely conduct EMI/RFI across the power supply

and Premise B (twice for good measure):

. . . low end, "commodity" type SMPS often have filtering that is totally inadequate

Such SMPS's work in that they provide power and pass EMI Agency Requirements, but they do little else.

Seems to me A and B are contradictory.

Example 2:
This noise can be as large or larger than that "kicked back" into the mains by a switched mode supply designed for audio use and with sufficient filtering on the mains side.

If you compare a known-to-be-unsuitable (because it's noisy and poorly filtered) linear PS with an optimal (because it's explicitly designed for audio use and well filtered) SMPS, of course the latter will perform better. You've built the fact into your definition.

Example 3:
modern PC's, streamers etc whatever are full of local Switched Mode Supplies that power some part of the circuit

No-one has suggested they're not but it's beside the point. See e.g. the rationale behind John Swenson's designs.

Had TL's argument been something on the lines of "What matters is not whether a PS is linear or switching per se but whether it performs well at the task in hand. "Linears" can be - often are - every bit as noisy as "Switchers"; there is no inherent advantage in "linear" PS technology. Etc. Etc.", I'd not be whinging about it now.

The problem I found, though I stand to be corrected, is that "audio-friendly" SMPSs are not readily available (none AFAIK for the DIY/hobby sector).

IME, a good C-L-C design knocks spots off even the best (the priciest??) off-the-shelf ATX PSUs when it comes to powering an audio-dedicated PC, esp when, as fmak suggests, P4, P24 and the boot device are powered separately.

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 7, 2014 at 08:43:34
Mercman
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Thanks Dave for the explanation. Fred has his points that cannot be ignored.

The fact is, I picked out some info from TL's discussion that was useful, but the discussion did not change my impressions of the sound of SMPS devices in an audio system.

I have seen graphs of how low noise the SMPS for the iPower is. It is trounced by the HDPlex in sound; significantly so. Even when plugging the SMPS into the Hydra DPC-6.

 

RE: Have you ever, posted on December 7, 2014 at 08:45:38
soundchekk
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No.I measured what's coming out.


EasyAccs are awful.Anker was OK.

I usally add some buffercaps and filtercaps.

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low noise SMPS , posted on December 7, 2014 at 08:55:49
fmak
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You'll have to go onto the level and cost of Chord and the like. There are no cheap world beating smps s. There are linear chips created t part silence switching noise.

In usb devices powered by convent switchers, you can easily see the harmonics thus created within the power rails.

 

RE: If , posted on December 7, 2014 at 08:56:49
Mercman
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"If designed and made something, I would need to be sure that it is superior before I get on a platform proclaiming it's virtues above those of other approaches."

I see your point Fred.

 

RE: Have you ever-some , posted on December 7, 2014 at 09:18:19
fmak
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are a disgusting mess inside. There is no workmanship of any kind.

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 7, 2014 at 09:25:42
rick_m
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"Coming full circle, modern PC's, streamers etc whatever are full of local Switched Mode Supplies that power some part of the circuit, often they are even designed into chip's themselves."

True... But you can optimize the current loops and fields with internal switchers because you've got tight control of the geometry at design time and fixed susceptibilities. External stuff wired to who knows what in an uncontrolled environment has a much tougher row to hoe.

Great post, thanks!

Rick

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 7, 2014 at 09:39:17
Ugly
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"Seems to me A and B are contradictory."

In my interpretation in A he's referring to "across" that he means from one end to the other but in "B" since the context is EMI (ie from within) the path is from the inside out. In general there would always be more layers of filtering for any grid born noise to traverse through a typical SMPS to get to it's output and thus greater attenuation on that noise, for example, than any noise born within the smps trying to get out. I don't see it as being a contradictory statement.


"The problem I found, though I stand to be corrected, is that "audio-friendly" SMPSs are not readily available (none AFAIK for the DIY/hobby sector)."

I find this statement fascinating considering how much some here are apparently willing to pay for a powers supplies and how much lower cost I'd imagine a well designed switcher would be to produce.

Though I must admit I am a bit shocked to learn this is actually a thing. Where is this pool users of switch mode power supply retrofitters who have come up against the quality wall as far with the off the shelf commercial offerings? It would seem the only power supply retorofitters we ever get around here are those wanting huge linear regulator supplies.

 

RE: 'tis the crux of the matter..., posted on December 7, 2014 at 10:03:10
Tony Lauck
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If the goal is to eliminate noise fed back to the mains then the best solution seems to me to remove all connection from the digital devices to the power mains. Just run them off of battery power. This is practical for DACs as well (i.e. separate battery power from computer).

If this approach is inconvenient it is at least available as a useful testing tool when exploring how noise makes it to the analog audio gear.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 7, 2014 at 10:09:18
Tony Lauck
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What is the advantage of ECC memory for audio playback applications? Data errors are rare and data corruption during playback is hardly the end of the world, as recovery is trivial. (Not the case with server applications where dozens or hundreds of people wait for the database to be repaired and the server brought back on line.)



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 7, 2014 at 10:17:23
Ryelands
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In my interpretation

Perhaps my interpretation was wrong. But then again . . .

considering how much some here are apparently willing to pay for powers supplies and how much lower cost I'd imagine a well designed switcher would be to produce.

My knowledge of SMPS manufacture is, well, meagre but I wonder if there is enough "audiophile" demand to keep prices down. I do know of one manufacturer who uses IIRC CinCon units but adds regulators that cost about as much again. Linn reportedly uses them but I've no idea how. In both cases, the products are of limited relevance to the DIY sector which is what I was discussing.

I use C-L-C PSUs because constructing them is within my skills set, the cost is within my means and the results are waaaaay beyond what I've obtained even from above-average ATX units. (I've tried both as have many others.) I'm quite prepared to believe that an SMPS unit could be as good but I know of no examples.

An exception that I am familiar with is the AQVOX USB PSU - I'm all but certain it's a switcher but have not opened it up. I use it to drive a USB-to-I2S card. It matches and perhaps edges a good linear unit I've compared it with; both saw off one of those USB charger/battery thingies by a fair margin.

 

RE: low noise SMPS , posted on December 7, 2014 at 10:28:36
Ugly
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"There are no cheap world beating smps s."

When you exhaustively tested every smps in existence did you happen to write down the results?

 

I use mains isolating transformers., posted on December 7, 2014 at 11:00:54
fmak
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nt

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 7, 2014 at 11:15:53
Ugly
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Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
It's true that having the facilities to design and qualify for emc performance along with all the rest of the usual audiophile requirements is a whole other step up in capabilities which raises the bar on the design side. But the bills of material is usually going to be much smaller on a cash/watt basis even for a really really high quality switcher with tons of it's BOM cost thrown into filtering if the design is all in house. The filtering and shielding required usually won't add much if you are actually designing in discrete components and doing all the pcb layout and enclosure design yourself.

Once you have the proper emc measuring equipment and design expertise in house, taking the noise reduction beyond regulatory compliance to audiophile compliance is all in a days work so to speak at that point.

There are plenty of industrial grade designs at fractions of the costs being discussed here by multiple manufacturers at power levels and voltages I'm imagining are popular amongst the modders. My feeling is that it wouldn't take much to take one of these existing designs to the next level performance wise for most of these manufacturers.

That is, if it's even necessary. I still wonder how true it is that the already existing high end industrial off the shelf switchers aren't good enough as is. Also how true it is that these users (like the one posting below) who claim to know everything about how all switchers sound as retrofits actually know nothing of the subject at all despite what they are saying. Where is the database of all the trials of the various commercially available high quality smps for high end audio pc's by someone with any shred of credibility for performing these trials?

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 7, 2014 at 13:36:48
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
Once you have the proper emc measuring equipment and design expertise in house, taking the noise reduction beyond regulatory compliance to audiophile compliance is all in a days work so to speak at that point.

Yeah, yeah - but this is a hobbyist's forum. Can't you tell?

There are plenty of industrial grade designs at fractions of the costs being discussed

Costs haven't been discussed, not on this thread at least. You seemed more interested in size.

. . . here by multiple manufacturers at power levels and voltages I'm imagining are popular amongst the modders.

I look forward to your recommendations provided of course they're based on experience, not on guesses from datasheets.

Where is the database of all the trials of the various commercially available high quality smps for high end audio pc's by someone with any shred of credibility for performing these trials?

Up there, top shelf, right next to yours. Can't miss it.

For my part, I bought some years back an ATX PSU recommended as A1 on quality grounds by SilentPC (which has, as you know, an extensive database and lots of credibility). After doing this and that to improve the sound (documented here and recently revisited), I built John Swenson's at-the-time recently published first pass at a C-L-C linear design. Different league. I'm still using it; a variant is now, I'm told, in commerical production.

If you haven't "auditioned" (heard) one, I'd give it a go. Then - but, please, only then - tell us which SMPS devices compare quality-wise and price-wise.

D

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 7, 2014 at 14:43:56
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
"Yeah, yeah - but this is a hobbyist's forum. Can't you tell?"

Did one of the hobbyists from this forum design the HDPlex supply then? Which one. You? fmak? carcass?

"Costs haven't been discussed, not on this thread at least. You seemed more interested in size"

Except the first thread where Mercman was talking about buying a $359 linear power supply. My curiosity has been motivated purely by greed.

"I look forward to your recommendations provided of course they're based on experience, not on guesses from datasheets"

How you've jumped from my admission of knowledge of the existence of potentially suitable and interesting looking candidates to the assumption I've tried them I'm sure is a very humorous tale. I've used a very few of the type I'm referring to of them in various non audio applications if your interested we can take that off line.

"Up there, top shelf, right next to yours. Can't miss it."

You seem confused. I'm not sure why you would think I've ever bypassed my built in power supplies or think it is a good idea to try. I don't even use a usb DAC.

"For my part, I bought some years back an ATX PSU recommended as A1 on quality grounds by SilentPC (which has, as you know, an extensive database and lots of credibility). After doing this and that to improve the sound (documented here and recently revisited), I built John Swenson's at-the-time recently published first pass at a C-L-C linear design. Different league. I'm still using it; a variant is now, I'm told, in commerical production."

I'm not familiar with the silent PC database however unless it has any weighting of their results by measured amounts of EMI on both the inputs and outputs with all the rest of the normal specs then it probably isn't any more useful than just viewing the manufacturers spec sheet ratings.

Not familiar with the details of the DIY supply you mention either but from the naming one might wonder if it's secrets were all in it's differential mode filtering. My experience with taking switch mode power supplies from a different market through regulatory compliance suggests that usually it is multiple stages of both common mode and differential mode filtering on both the input side and the output side and possibly some shielding necessary to really get things quiet. I'd guess this is even more true while designing for audiophiles than just trying to meet legal limits.



 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 7, 2014 at 15:49:18
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
Did one of the hobbyists from this forum design the HDPlex supply then? Which one. You? fmak? carcass?

Very witty and all but you miss my point. No-one suggested that that device was an amateur design. Fmak BTW (no amateur he) can - and mostly does - speak for himself; ditto carcass. Neither would thank me for my support.

I reported who designed the linear device I mentioned and linked to comments by him on it. He is assuredly no amateur either - you might have learned something from his comments had you made the effort to read them.

How you've jumped from my admission of knowledge of the existence of potentially suitable and interesting looking candidates to the assumption I've tried them I'm sure is a very humorous tale.

No, my comment wasn't a jump from anywhere to anywhere. (BTW, I find your arguments tiresome, not amusing.) My quip was a dig at your IMHO presumptious assumption that your competence in one field (which is not disputed) allows you to by-pass empirical data in a related but different one or, to put it more bluntly, to bang on about devices you've never heard, whose circuits you do not know and decline to research, etc etc. It's a common fault among some professionals who hang round forums such as this but it's (sic) not perhaps the most professional conduct.

I've used a very few of the type I'm referring to of them in various non audio applications if your interested we can take that off line.

Thanks for the offer but I'm happy to take my chance in public gaze.

Not familiar with the details of the DIY supply you mention either but from the naming one might wonder if it's secrets were all in it's differential mode filtering.

Er, no, you might wonder. I don't need to. I (and many others not quite as dumb as you imply) have read the various write-ups and much besides by the same engineer and can confidently dismiss your speculation - there's rather more to it than that.

I'd guess this is even more true while designing for audiophiles than just trying to meet legal limits.

Well, the admission might be a step forward but the guess bit? Not so much. The tension between "legal limits" and pushing audio repoduction boundaries is really rather old hat.

I fear I have no more to add on this topic. Many thanks for your time.

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 7, 2014 at 17:02:03
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
"My quip was a dig at your IMHO presumptious assumption that your competence in one field (which is not disputed) allows you to by-pass empirical data in a related but different one or, to put it more bluntly, to bang on about devices you've never heard, whose circuits you do not know and decline to research, etc etc. It's a common fault among some professionals who hang round forums such as this but it's (sic) not perhaps the most professional conduct."

lol The only presumption I'm making is the one where you or others here seemingly never share success or failure stories about any switching power supply retrofits I'm aware of and so presumably aren't doing any of them at all. Please provide evidence of this tremendously convincing body of data created by all the experimenter, diyers , and modders on this forum reporting their failures with upscale switcher ps retrofits rationalizing the transition among those doing power supply retrofits to no one doing any switcher retrofits and everyone doing linear supply retrofits. I'd be surprised if there is a single post you could point to here where someone was actually using an upscale switcher as a retrofit in their audio pc.

I think anyone spending much time reading the forum here can see who's really being presumptuous here about the use of smps in audio pc upgrade retrofits no matter what their professional background is. You all just aren't reporting any switching power supply retrofit results...are you????

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 7, 2014 at 17:38:25
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
Hi,

> Seems to me A and B are contradictory.

No, they are simply applying to non-overlaping magisteria.

One statements talks about conducted EMI (that is EMI applied to input or output of the SMPS from an external source).

And the other to radiated EMI (that is EMI is produced by the SMPS itself).

The two are very different. You cannot mix them up.

> You've built the fact into your definition.

Absolutely. Mainly because I see so many of these "known-to-be-unsuitable" power supplies in High End gear.

> "audio-friendly" SMPSs are not readily available

The same applies mostly to linear supplies.

> IME, a good C-L-C design knocks spots off

It can be applied to both linear and switching supplies.

Given that in linear supplies we must deal with anything 100Hz up while in SMPS we generally only need to worry about stuff in the > 20kHz range applying CLC to SMPS's is much easier and more cost effective than with linear supplies.

With the latest generation of > 1MHz switchers one can do really kool stuff on noise, as they also tend to be as quiet in the Audio range as the best linear regulators and have regulation bandwidth in excess of 20kHz.

So as usual, appropriate technologies.

The issue here is of course that neither linear nor SMPS commonly feature much (C)LC filtering on either input or output.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 7, 2014 at 22:06:12
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000
"I think anyone spending much time reading the forum here can see who's really being presumptuous here about the use of smps in audio pc upgrade retrofits no matter what their professional background is. You all just aren't reporting any switching power supply retrofit results...are you????"

So build one and submit it to the board for evaluation...

 

There is no point indulging in, posted on December 7, 2014 at 22:12:33
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
'cloud' based arguments when you do not (cannot?) name an 'economy' switcher that does the job of improving on linear supplies by way of measurement and sound quality.

If you can, do so and I shall try it.

I, and many others in CA have already posted about a claimed 'superior' switcher being inferior in performance to a humble LM317 or LT1086 linear.

 

competance and empirical data, posted on December 8, 2014 at 00:26:58
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
You are complaining about someone's knowledge which directly impacts on that of your own.

Their is plenty of empirical information on the effects of linear power supplies on computer audio and little, if any, empirical evidence on the superiority of switchers. What is your competence or incompetence in supporting what you accuse others off?

The only evidence there is on audio is the use of expensive high quality switchers by makers such as Chord, and pronouncements by designers using general and overarching techno terms that this is so.

It is very easy to see the hf noise and harmonics produced by switchers and hear their effects on quality of audio reply. If you don' think this matters, detail your own empirical or scientific observations.

 

This is, posted on December 8, 2014 at 02:25:58
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
an interesting and sometimes amusing discussion, if one has the patience to go thru it.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/linear-powered-rips-and-flash-drives-sound-better-alex-was-right-22116/index28.html#post373306

The John Lyndsey Hood power supply is one designed for analog duty in the 60s and I don't know how good it is. I have one but it is too BIG for my purposes and so I never investigated.

 

RE: competence and hard data, posted on December 8, 2014 at 04:08:25
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
Hi,

> It is very easy to see the hf noise and harmonics produced
> by switchers

If you can see them in the audio output on a 'scope (or AP2), something is wrong.

If you can see them on the output of the SMPS, you need to consider how much there is and where it falls relative to the power supply rails and relative to the PSRR build into the rest of the circuit which is supplied by the SMPS at the frequencies at which SMPS operates.

Generally a few millivolt depending on frequency are not necessarily a problem, at least no with stuff I design.

It would be nice if you actually had some hard numbers or even better, graphs of the noise produced by different supplies. No need for an AP2 system, your Rigol 'scope is actually capable of fairly decent FFT. Not only would this back up your arguments with empirical data as opposed to ipse dixit, but it would actually demonstrate competence.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: competence and hard data-why don't, posted on December 8, 2014 at 04:43:09
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
you post your hard data to support what you said.

This kind of stuff is typical of posters who can't answer a point and therefore try to turn it into the responsibility of those who question a suspect statement in the first place.

Please explain to inmates why your super smps wall wart doesn't sound good.

I charge a lot of money per day for professional work.

I would like ugly to respond, not you.

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 8, 2014 at 07:10:09
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
Apparently you missed my point.

Why would anyone bother building something better until what exists actually gets tried and deemed unworthy by someone who actually cares about revealing reality?

Perhaps you can point me to the evidence supporting a rational favoritism for linear supply retrofits over higher end commercially available switcher retrofits. As I've pointed out to Rylands several times, where he's repeatedly ignored me and conveniently repeatedly neglected to respond to this line of questioning, I haven't been able to find any of this data.

From all outwardly appearances the community has irrationally latched on to this linear power supply fetish with no apparent supporting empirical data to suggest it is anything other than magic fairy dust.

 

RE: competance and empirical data, posted on December 8, 2014 at 07:14:53
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
BS. I'm simply pointing out how all switching power supplies get universally condemned on this forum as viable pc audio ps retrofits with apparently little to no backing experimental evidence obviously available here (or elsewhere?) suggesting it is a good idea.

 

RE: There is no point indulging in, posted on December 8, 2014 at 07:22:38
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
Kudos to you fmak for seeing the glaring hole in the logic being forwarded here and stepping up to right the situation.

Tell me a power level and voltage you are interested in, give me a part number of the competing linear supply to beat and I'll see what I can find.

Please explain your test methodology where you would show how you can effectively rank the quality of...

1. performance via standard pc power via ATX supply and any applicable mother board converter if applicable. 2. performance via linear power supply/s of choice retrofitted into test circuit. 3. performance of test switching power supply as retrofitted into circuit.

 

RE: competance and empirical data=Again, posted on December 8, 2014 at 08:08:45
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
you accuse but does not contribute in any degree of substance.

We now know clearly what your posts are about.

 

RE: There is no point indulging in, posted on December 8, 2014 at 08:11:19
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
we use our ears and don't indulge in useless techno speak. As Bill Clinton said ... it's our ears stupid.

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 8, 2014 at 08:15:35
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6580
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
You guys really get off topic. My post was about linear power supplies acting as firewalls.

"From all outwardly appearances the community has irrationally latched on to this linear power supply fetish with no apparent supporting empirical data to suggest it is anything other than magic fairy dust."

I don't see it at the AA community. Heck, I tried a linear power supply on the iPower replacing its high quality SMPS. The linear power supply sounded better to me. Big deal?

 

"Neither would thank me for my support" - why? I would, and in fact did - not for support per se,...., posted on December 8, 2014 at 09:40:37
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
... but for some ideas regarding headless setup.

As for your discussion with the opponent - in case you haven't noticed, you are being swamped in huge amount of non-experiential noise, beyond which there's nothing at all. Which doesn't bother me in this case (you can't prohibit that, if these people are so inclined, after all) as much as when it comes from Thorsten.

Endless argument about superiority of "good", "properly designed" SMPS - without a single example of such, and more importantly, without single mention of auditioning it against any linear PS. Or auditioning it, period, for that matter.

PS: It would be very entertaining to see one of them attempting to explain what is "wrong" with superbly, by all computer PS standards, measuring Seasonic Platinum fanless 460W PS - which was audibly inferior in my setup than combination of off-the-shelf regulated linear PS (with appropriate ripple and noise specs, of course) and PicoPSU.

That includes all of the following options for Seasonic:

- feeding everything;
- feeding both MB and CPU, but not HD;
- feeding either MB or CPU only.

 

RE: "Neither would thank me for my support" - why? I would, and in fact did - not for support per se,...., posted on December 8, 2014 at 10:35:34
Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009
but for some ideas regarding headless setup.

So you did - I'd quite forgotten. Apologies. Did I give you any?

D

 

Here's traces that I have found:, posted on December 8, 2014 at 10:49:48
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
Of course, the advice wasn't given to me, specifically.

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 8, 2014 at 11:48:54
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46196
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002
Tony, as you know 'server boards' are not the norm for PC audio which means ECC memory is not the norm. If it is, we should all throw up our hands in defeat as we're all screwed except for perhaps the two or three people here who use 'server boards' and Windows Server.

Personally I see no good reason for using ECC memory in a computer based music system.




 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 8, 2014 at 11:52:18
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
I asked what was largely a rhetorical question, but I remain open to changing my view if suitable answers are forthcoming.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: There is no point indulging in, posted on December 8, 2014 at 17:50:19
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
"we use our ears and don't indulge in useless techno speak. As Bill Clinton said ... it's our ears stupid."

There you have it. You use your ears. There are others who use their brains. Neither is good. Good is using both.

To my knowledge, Bill Clinton never put a cigar in an ear.


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: competence and hard data, posted on December 8, 2014 at 18:11:07
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
"It would be nice if you actually had some hard numbers or even better, graphs of the noise produced by different supplies. No need for an AP2 system, your Rigol 'scope is actually capable of fairly decent FFT. Not only would this back up your arguments with empirical data as opposed to ipse dixit, but it would actually demonstrate competence."

I asked for similar hard data a while back and was told that his scope was broken. I thing this is a BS excuse. I have no problem with people who compare products and prefer one over another and tell us so. However, when they make technology claims as to the reasons behind their preferences then I expect technical information. Absent this, I fall into default mode: they are not technically competent.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 8, 2014 at 18:45:25
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000
I did not miss the point, but your point has no context in the reality here. For the most part this is a hobby, and participants are hobbyists. Hobbyists do not have the wherewithal to design or build switching supplies so we build or purchase what we are familiar with. You have to be stupid to think that it is not possible to design a good switching supply, someone like Mr. T obviously could. I use Hypex, they are very good so we clearly understand the technology is there. So what is your point? Are you really foolish enough to think that people do not realize this, or you just want to be argumentative. Add something to the mix, design a great supply, pass it around the group and let's see what happens. You know it can be done, good engineers know it can be done, so just do it.

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 8, 2014 at 18:52:19
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000
"What is the advantage of ECC memory for audio playback applications? Data errors are rare and data corruption during playback is hardly the end of the world, as recovery is trivial. (Not the case with server applications where dozens or hundreds of people wait for the database to be repaired and the server brought back on line.)"

Tony,

As far as an advantage, I cannot say that I have personally heard one. I have both boards that use ECC, and non-ECC memory. True it is not the end of the world and I would not lose any sleep either way but if the opportunity is there and in the case of the systems I am using the memory did not cost any more, so I use ECC. There are people that are more dedicated than I am and have reported differences. As you said for servers it is important, everything else it can be looked at as a nice option IMO but not a necessity.

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 8, 2014 at 18:53:44
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000
"Personally I see no good reason for using ECC memory in a computer based music system."

And do you see any reasons not to use ECC memory?

 

RE: There is no point indulging in, posted on December 8, 2014 at 18:58:23
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000




 

RE: "Neither would thank me for my support" - why? I would, and in fact did - not for support per se,...., posted on December 8, 2014 at 19:09:33
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
"PS: It would be very entertaining to see one of them attempting to explain what is "wrong" with superbly, by all computer PS standards, measuring Seasonic Platinum fanless 460W PS - which was audibly inferior in my setup than combination of off-the-shelf regulated linear PS (with appropriate ripple and noise specs, of course) and PicoPSU."

You mean it would be entertaining for someone to point out the obvious things you apparently missed such as the fact the device in question lacks a "class B" rating and so should never have made it to your short list in the first place if your goal is reducing EMI?

Of course since yours is one of those systems where moving the mouse around causes veils to be removed, registry hacks makes it sound like toobs, and you've essentially forgotten 60hz isn't actually part of every single piece of music and silent track you own, I'm afraid even if somehow you were able to get your hands on a perfect power supply installing it would hardly make a noticeable difference for you since it would only be removing one thin layer in the massive onion your systems problems may apparently be represented by.

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 8, 2014 at 19:26:27
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
"You guys really get off topic. My post was about linear power supplies acting as firewalls. "

And I find it fascinating to note at which point in this thread you have chosen to point this out.

"I don't see it at the AA community"

So, of those you've noted doing such mods you've realized there are some who are doing the more rational thing, considering all power supply topologies as potentially viable retrofits? Where are the posts from these asylum members experiences?

"Heck, I tried a linear power supply on the iPower replacing its high quality SMPS."

And your saying examples of high quality switchers actually were on the list of potential replacement candidates with the linear you eventually chose? No need to answer this rhetorical question since anyone familiar with this place likely has extremely high confidence on what the truth is already.

"The linear power supply sounded better to me. Big deal? "

There is a data point. I guess this means we can universally condemn the things then?

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 8, 2014 at 19:37:23
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
Weak attempt at a dodge there I'd say.

Still waiting for evidence you or anyone has ever tried one of the many many many fairly high quality, off the shelf, switching supplies commonly used for industrial control systems in their audio pc USB power supply retrofit and has ranked these (hopefully better than fmaks evaluation method but I'd be willing to take anything at this point) with respect to the popular linears and the default motherboard solution....

Your great with dodging and personal attacks now lets see if you can answer the question you all have avoided for so many posts now...

 

RE: There is no point indulging in, posted on December 8, 2014 at 19:40:03
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
Methodology is up to you though your results might command more credibility with others if you were to expand your test repertoire.

 

RE: competance and empirical data=Again, posted on December 8, 2014 at 19:45:09
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
You speak like the dude in Silence of the Lambs.

Knowing I'm not someone who's done usb power supply retrofitting what would you propose I contribute here exactly?.

"We now know clearly what your posts are about."

Care to elaborate? I was beginning to wonder that myself.

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 8, 2014 at 20:00:09
Bob_C
Audiophile

Posts: 2667
Location: NY
Joined: July 31, 2000
What a waste of time. smh...

 

RE: competence and hard data-why don't, posted on December 8, 2014 at 21:33:26
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
Hi,

> you post your hard data to support what you said.

As you well know, the data has been published in the public domain and is easily accessible to anyone who would like to have a look.

> I charge a lot of money per day for professional work.

Really!? I cannot for the life of me see what that factoid (if it be fact indeed) has to do with the price of tea in china, unless you work in Audio or related fields. And even then often there gasps a huge chasm with what some people charge and what they actually accomplish.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

data has been published in the public domain , posted on December 8, 2014 at 21:46:27
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
one graph that doesn't show any 'superiority', based on which you are making generalisations? Puh!

Inmates have to wonder whether this is just publicity. The website you refer to also boasted about zero jitter dacs, based on a contrived definition of what you measured.

The wall wart has been banned from Australia and to me and others (in CA)it sounds poor even though you have heavy filtering within the iusb power.

 

Waste of time, posted on December 8, 2014 at 21:48:05
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
quite right. No point in responding to pointless reinterations.

 

RE: Have you ever, posted on December 8, 2014 at 21:55:29
panhead
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: chicago
Joined: January 20, 2007
Just curious, what kind of measurements did you get?

Do you have a schematic of the buffer and filter caps you are using?


Did this add-on improve the sound?


Im using the anker in both servers and so would like to know. Didnt know there were switchers inside.

Many thanks!

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 8, 2014 at 22:19:38
Audio Bling
Audiophile

Posts: 307
Location: Australia
Joined: October 9, 2007
It has become fashionable to choose server parts: sever board; server memory; server processor.. I am unaware that any technical explanation has ever been given as to why server bits are better for audio duty.

As far as the recent CAPS write-ups are concerned, I think the articles are deficient for the reason that there is little justification for many of the build recommendations. The substance seems to be that Chris C. has tried many parts; and these are what he thought best. IMO, he has recommended little beyond what has been suggested in many other places on the net. But I don’t want to appear to be mean so I will echo the sentiment of others and say that his articles are “nice”.

 

RE: data has been published in the public domain , posted on December 9, 2014 at 00:29:35
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
Hi,

> The wall wart has been banned from Australia

Really. Can you back that up? Who banned it and why?

> and to me and others (in CA)it sounds poor even though
> you have heavy filtering within the iusb power.

So what. To many people who have the power supply you so revile the result of using it is significantly better than without. So where does that leave you and "others (in CA)"?

But I do not particularly care to debate subjective performance, even if we have 10 if not 100:1 positives to each of your "me and others (in CA)".

Objective performance is another story. As is any injunction issued by any agency.

If you wish to make claims about objective performance though, I expect test result to back your claims, for conducted, radiated and output noise. Otherwise you are just talking bollox (spelling intentional).

And if you claim any given agency has specifically banned any given product from any manufacturer you better have backup. As such claims if not substantiated could be considered slander and libel.

Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

This is the kind of immature post that you sometimes generate, posted on December 9, 2014 at 00:42:08
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
You can ask, but I don't have to comply. As I said , if you want to find out, do it yourself.

In this particular case, it is down to the poster to justify what is said with hard data. Not the person who posts a comment.

If you don't use your ears to tune your system, what is this highy complex processing chain that you have set up for yourself in turning pcm into dsd on the fly?

AS Thorstin pointed out, and I agree with him, this is bad for SQ.

 

Who with their right brains would , posted on December 9, 2014 at 00:46:24
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
turn pcm data into dsd 256 on the fly and claim 'best sound'?. If you use your ears to do it, then at least admit to doing so.

 

will not get approval for use in Australia and New Zealand and there’s no way around it now after much effort., posted on December 9, 2014 at 02:08:43
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
Quote
UPDATE August 2013. Australian distributor MAXMedia sent me this missive: “The PSU featured in your review will not get approval for use in Australia and New Zealand and there’s no way around it now after much effort. IFI will undertake steps to work with one of the suppliers we have recommended which will also cover many of their other markets caught up in the issue of this PSU. We hope this can be sorted as quickly as possible but for now, we will continue to supply an SAA approved PSU and down the track. When the new IFI PSU is available we will have no issues doing swaps”.

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2013/01/10/amr-ifi-iusbpower-review/
Unquote

It seems that you don't know what your distributor is saying.

 

RE: Insight-when-may be the difference is, posted on December 9, 2014 at 02:31:44
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6580
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
"There is a data point. I guess this means we can universally condemn the things then?"

I didn't mean this at all! I appreciate what you are suggesting in your posts, but I really have no interest in pursuing the testing of high quality SMPS ,nor do I make blanket statements concerning all SMPS. I just plug the stuff into a Shunyata Hydra DPC-6.

 

Re: "we are now in a position to include the Euro PSU", posted on December 9, 2014 at 03:02:51
Thorsten
Manufacturer

Posts: 4209
Location: Somewhere nice on planet dirt
Joined: September 25, 1999
Hi,

> It seems that you don't know what your distributor is saying.

I know what he is saying. And it does not say "banned". It says not approved.

To have an item approved might for example entail having to submit samples for testing and to pay the required fees, which can be quite exorbitant. They may have to take out liability insurance and comply with many other strictures that have little to do with safety and much with making trade and business more difficult and more of an income source for governments. We leave these things up to the distributors.

FWIW, our Korean Distributor applied for and got all the approvals needed for south korea, which are both expensive and extremely strict (some of strictest around) in order to raise the barrier for imported goods.

And as you seem to know all so well (and so much better than I do) what the distributor says and what our distributors are doing, I am greatly surprised you have missed this part:


We supply an external PSU that has been in use and approved for many years not the one illustrated above.

Requests have been made to sample the IFI Euro or US PSU and we are now in a position to include the Euro PSU on the basis of it’s for “evaluation purposes only” and those that use, do so on this basis only.


Thor

At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to intolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?

 

RE: data has been published in the public domain , posted on December 9, 2014 at 03:04:25
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6580
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
The guy in CA has assured me that the iFi USB Power does not sound bad with its SMPS. The guy just preferred the sound when powered by a different power supply.

All of the guy in CA's friends like their iPower with the SMPS.

 

Firewall, posted on December 9, 2014 at 03:10:25
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
At least Chris tries, as opposed those armchair theorists here who think they have 'brains'.

May be more brawn is what is needed.

 

It is because, posted on December 9, 2014 at 03:17:26
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
you try to be a wordsmith that you do not have credibility with some inmates.

First you try to play innocence, then you play with words.

Hard data is merited on why the PS you promote cannot be distributed in Australia.

I would assume that they feed back into the mains in an unacceptable way, which is the main point of what you said should be avoided with power supply.

Since my iFi USB power power supply broke down within 2 hours of use, and the replacement doesn't sound that good, I have relegated it to general PC duties. I now use a high quality, high PSRR, high bandwidth linear.

 

advantage of ECC memory , posted on December 9, 2014 at 04:58:42
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
cheap especially used. 1/2 to 1/3 of non ecc new price

 

RE: HDPlex Linear Power Supply is no Firewall, posted on December 9, 2014 at 05:00:36
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
not wrt prices on eBay. Much cheaper and worth a try

 

not the crux of the matter..., posted on December 9, 2014 at 05:06:08
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
It is only important if you do not take precautions to avoid feedback.

Of course, there is nothing you can do if you have 30 or so switching LED lighting units distributed throughout your house. The slightly different switching frequencies will bathe your system in a cocktail of disonant harmonics which some inmates can enjoy and form critical views on the excellent sound qualities of their unprotected systems.

 

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