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More Comments on the Audioquest DragonFly
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Posted on July 4, 2012 at 14:08:47 | ||
Posts: 6580
Location: So. CA Joined: October 20, 2002 |
The Audioquest DragonFly has been previously discussed in this and other forums. It is a USB DAC that is based on the ESS Sabre and is the size of a USB flash drive. The DragonFly has a software analog volume control that is tied to the system wide volume control. It has a 3.5mm stereo output jack that will drive most headphones and long cables due to its low impedance. The DragonFly supports up to 96/24. What is particulary nice about this product is that it uses the Wavelength Streamlength USB interface that is rock stable with OSX and Windows. Gordon Rankin designed the DAC for Audioquest. I connected the output of the DragonFly to my Stax SRM007 TII amp that drove Stax SR007 Omega II headphones. I felt that this offered a significant improvement in sound quality over the direct output Sennheiser HD 600 headphones I had previously listened to. The sound from the DragonFly was very good in that there was no hardness or brightness. The sound was balanced with decent bass. I was impressed with the midrange and high end detail I was hearing from such an inexpensive DAC. I listened using 88.2/24 and 96/24 files with Decibel. / OSX Lion. It is a very musical sounding DAC. Besides being a great product for travel purposes, it will make a wonderful DAC to test the waters with computer audio. For those thinking of trying computer audio and not interested in spending a great deal of money, this $250 USB DAC is damn good.
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RE: More Comments on the Audioquest DragonFly, posted on July 7, 2012 at 07:07:46 | |
Posts: 2424
Joined: July 11, 2007 |
1. Nothing got heated up. Just some of the weak spots based on the communicated feature set of your device were brought to the table. This is an open forum btw.. "Heat" obviously is what you guys feel when reading those comments. Good to see that you feel the heat. 2. The TAS1020B is an outdated device. Period. The limiations are known since years. Beside that it requires serious tweaking of the transport to get away from PC originated distortions. You'll find an estimated 4-5 years record about it over here at AA. 3. With e.g. state-of -the-art XMOS you could have run up2 96khz without driver. If you want 192 you'd need a driver on Windows only. Though you could still run 96khz without it. You wouldn't loose anything. On OSX and Linux you don't need a driver to run 192. The limitation comes with your choice of interface chip. BTW: A similar sized device -- Hiface II -- is running XMOS nowadays. 4. If you consider battery supplies for iOS devices. Why not on the Dragonfly?? I'm not aware of any USB device which wouldn't have shown serious improvements when taken away from bus power. You'll find numerous posts about that here and elsewhere. The best option obviously is a battery supply. We've seen that on many implementations. There are also many devices which allow bus and external power. Technically this is absolutely no problem. On your device a micro-jack for an optional external 5V supply would have been sufficant. 5. iPads usually work if you put a powered USB-HUB in between. I made several DAC devices working this way. I'd be surprised if the Dragonfly wouldn't work this way. Consider these kind of discussions as constructive feedback towards the community. In these kind of marketing threads, there's IMO a need to discuss Pro's AND Con's. For sure there'll be a V2 of Dragonfly. And for sure there'll be some people who'll buy your V1 device... ...even after such a HOT discussion. Good luck. ----------------------------------------------------------------- blog latest >> The Audio Streaming Series - tuning kit pCP |
RE: More Comments on the Audioquest DragonFly, posted on July 8, 2012 at 02:54:53 | |
Posts: 2424
Joined: July 11, 2007 |
Hi Steve. Nice try. Lot of text. Bottom line: 1. Plug'n play are all driverless USB audio devices 2. Hiface II gotta a similar footprint and uses XMOS. They even managed to get a reasonable jack into that device. 3. High Price Ayre and Wavelength devices incl. Streamlenght stuff will face a pretty tough future. 4. Spotfiy and mp3 users will be happy with the iOS devices output quality. Those devices are not even supported. 5. Taking design decisions based on dealer feedback I consider a pretty risky undertaking. My experience with dealers is that the majority doesn't really know what they are doing, when it comes to PC based audio. What counts for them is the margin vs. sales effort. A product like a Dragonfly is a typical online product. It doesn't need a dealer-chain. You'd better ask the crowd about their priorities. You could have saved thousands of $ for your extensive trips around the world and put the device into the 150$ league instead. And beside that community feedback would have been more valuable. Not to forget you seem to ignore that there is competition out there. 6. IMO your typical target group owns already 2 audio devices in average. You really need to explain why they need to buy a 3rd one. I do think you got my point. Obviously all issues I brought up have been brought up while you were designing the product. I just mentioned the basic stuff of course. I didn't even go into into detail about internal Sabre clocking schemes ( synchronous vs. asychronous etc.) asf. The Sabre DAC is the most discussed and tweaked DAC in the DIY audio world since I guess 3-4 years. There are no real secrets anymore about what makes that DAC sound good or average. My point is not to critizise your device, when it comes to sound quality. People like Mercman are kind of trustworthy (always with a marketing flavor around their posts of course). I think I made clear that I do have a feeling that you guys lack certain features what the addressed market segment might feel to be mandatory for a device at 250$. Anyhow. Good luck with your product. I might borrow one device. That's what I usually do, to get an idea about the devices potential. What might prevent me to do so is the mini-jack - which requires a quality cable or a quality adapter. And of course the lack of iPad support. Cheers ----------------------------------------------------------------- blog latest >> The Audio Streaming Series - tuning kit pCP |
RE: More Comments on the Audioquest DragonFly, posted on July 8, 2012 at 07:12:38 | |
Posts: 2424
Joined: July 11, 2007 |
My 50$ Full Digital AMP ( + a little tweaking) sounds better then any of the high price DAC/AMP combos I listened to. I fully understand your position though. And I fully understand that people who bought and sell high price stuff argue against my position. On one hand it's an emotional issue on the other hand it's a business issue. Enjoy your fancy stuff. ----------------------------------------------------------------- blog latest >> The Audio Streaming Series - tuning kit pCP |
RE: More Comments on the Audioquest DragonFly, posted on July 8, 2012 at 07:22:36 | |
Posts: 2424
Joined: July 11, 2007 |
Nonsense. Todays high Price devices highest cost factors go into enclosure, marketing, and dealer margin. Compared to above the cost associated to the technology itself becomes neglectable.
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RE: However, the vast majority of potential customers couldn't care less about your concerns, posted on July 7, 2012 at 10:38:40 | |
Posts: 2424
Joined: July 11, 2007 |
Look. "Vast majority" needs to be defined first. Vast majority is a whatever market share of a certain market segment. Such a product tries to address those people which do care If I'd be marketing manager at AQ it would have been too risky for me to go after this particular segment. It is flooded with devices. And the AQ differentiators are almost neglectable. As we learned today there will be another product launchned "next year" which addresses iOS and comes with battery supply. I mean. It's so obvious to anybody who understands a little bit about marketing. I btw do consider it a wrong move by AQ to come up with a seperate iOS product next year. I'm pretty sure that the market wants "a one size fits all" product. I could imagine that some people might feel a little fooled about this. They suddenly need to buy and carry two AQ devices. But. Who cares about another 250$. 250$ - it's pocket money. Not worth discussing.
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RE: However, the vast majority of potential customers couldn't care less about your concerns, posted on July 7, 2012 at 19:49:00 | |
Interesting take on some of the products you listed Bill. |
RE: More Comments on the Audioquest DragonFly, posted on July 6, 2012 at 05:26:44 | |
Posts: 2424
Joined: July 11, 2007 |
Just learned that it is 24/96 (USB Audio Class 1 ??)only. At 250$ this is not state of the art. Especially if you consider what the Sabre is capable of. The Sabre can go up2 384khz and can also run DSD. Bus power supply is not the first choice either. IMO another little toy to forget about. ----------------------------------------------------------------- blog latest >> The Audio Streaming Series - tuning kit pCP |
RE: More Comments on the Audioquest DragonFly, posted on July 6, 2012 at 11:27:12 | |
Posts: 2424
Joined: July 11, 2007 |
There are so many devices out there. With that feature list they won't impress many people. Meanwhile DACs are commodity products. The recipe of how to built a good sounding DAC is no rocket science anymore. (I'm really wondering how Gordon still manages to sell his stuff.) Highest Fidelity sound on a mobile device I consider somewhat irrelevant. I do own two Sabre DACs by myself. If they've done a good job - I know what to expect soundwise. They could have done better: 150$ for the current device. 200$ incl. 24/384 and maybe 250$ incl. DSD. An external PS option would have been a nice add-on. ----------------------------------------------------------------- blog latest >> The Audio Streaming Series - tuning kit pCP |
Value for the Money, posted on July 7, 2012 at 00:39:40 | |
Posts: 2424
Joined: July 11, 2007 |
Hi Steve. I know you got plenty of pocket money to play with. However. At 199$ you can get e.g. a Sumoh Full Digital Amp (instead if seperate DAC and AMP with associated seperation issues) Add to it a 140$ Hiface II or a 170$ Audio GD DI II with reclocker. That's what I call value for the money. Of course you can run your Dragonfly into a chinese 100$ Class-D Amp. Which might turn out to be a nice sounding setup too. Since I'm a DIY minded person and an engineer by profession, I'm a bit more flexible when it comes to heating up the soldering iron. To me the recent past, the present and future is full digital. Enjoy. P.S: But let see. I perhaps order a Dragonfly for testing just to get an idea how it sounds. But even if it sounds as good as you suggest, I wouldn't buy it because of beforementioned lack of features. |
RE: Forget about??, posted on July 6, 2012 at 08:26:48 | |
Posts: 2424
Joined: July 11, 2007 |
It still is 250$. And the pity is that the DAC would allow much higher sample rates. There is no extra cost. No idea what drove them to stay at USB 1. I'm sure an XMOS+Sabre wouldn't have killed the budget. (Maybe the Wavelength stuff killed it ;) ) Let see. Maybe M2Tech comes with such a device sooner or later. Did yo try to put a USB Hub in between the CCK and the DAC. My Audio-GD works this way. With Pluplayer DLNA you should be able to stream even 24/96. ----------------------------------------------------------------- blog latest >> The Audio Streaming Series - tuning kit pCP |
Leave us alone, posted on July 9, 2012 at 01:47:57 | |
Posts: 2424
Joined: July 11, 2007 |
"Really I don't get it... go back to to the SB and leave us alone." That would be something. Right!?!? Thx for letting us know your emotional side. That tells me a lot. I also appreciate that you let us know that you were the "mastermind" behind the product. Suddenly all this starts making sense. "Poor" Mercman plays again a role in that marketing game. (Obviously he is not realizeing this - it's not his intention to do your marketing) Now you want me "to leave you (us) alone". Hmmh. What's going on here!??! "Maybe you can share your vast knowledge about digital design.." For this kind of disussion my knowledge is more than sufficiant. And I can tell you I wouldn't have accepted your solution, if I'd been in charge. Look. You probably pretty much copy/pasted your latest stuff into that product. Most of the building blocks do show your already known design philosophy. By doing so you ended up with certain - IMO not-state-of-the-art compromises, featurewise. Going this way meant less effort and licensing fees on your side and less design effort on the Audioquest side. That's nothing unusual in todays audio world. Lot's of audio manufactureres buy-in knowledge. You guys explained why you've taken those feature decisions. That's all fair enough. However. There are alternatives even with XMOS or Tenor you name it in conjunction with different DACs then Sabre+PIC+AMP. But that's not your home turf. You sold your concept to Audioquest and they accepted - you maybe even partnered up with them. Fair enough. The market will tell you guys if you were right about your concept. The competiton will tell you if there are really no alternive concepts possible. And one more word. If you guys intend to do your marketing -- ""leave us alone"" ?? -- over here, I'd strongly recommend to buy banners or open a vendor section. You better stay out of these kind of discussions. You as a manufacturrer don't have to explain anything. You got plenty of fans , who'll take your position, around here. We didn't discuss more detail (pro's and con's) then you'd find in any audio magazine review. I was pretty surprised about this allergic reaction. Obviously I stepped on someones toes. Just to say it again. My intention was to layout my personal view about the Dragonfly product from a feature perspective. The whole thing obviously ended up with a slight different spin to it. Thank you. P.S: My Squeezebox Project is free of charge and a community effort in some areas and makes - besides thousands other setups - even your high priced products sounding better!!!! ( You'll be surprised - the SBT can talk USB) Yep. The SBT - A great product at 250$!!!!!! That's what I call value for the money. ----------------------------------------------------------------- blog latest >> The Audio Streaming Series - tuning kit pCP |
RE: Forget about??, posted on July 6, 2012 at 11:10:21 | |
Posts: 2424
Joined: July 11, 2007 |
XMOS does it driverless: See Hiface II a 140$ device. ----------------------------------------------------------------- blog latest >> The Audio Streaming Series - tuning kit pCP |
RE: Forget about??, posted on July 6, 2012 at 11:06:11 | |
>>>That's the point I was trying make. :-) |
To me, it's perfectly understandable that people get annoyed with..., posted on July 6, 2012 at 22:42:46 | |
Posts: 1470
Joined: June 2, 2007 |
Apple shills. |
iPAD messaging., posted on July 9, 2012 at 12:44:28 | |
Not exactly FAST, but its the price you pay for being Cool.!! |
People have been compulsively messaging for years with all types of portable devices., posted on July 9, 2012 at 12:13:48 | |
. Why do you tie your concerns specifically to the iPad? . |
Audioquest DragonFly, posted on July 5, 2012 at 22:52:56 | |
Posts: 382
Location: On the road Joined: June 7, 2012 |
Thanks for your summery on the Dragonfly.
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