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in the Cloud ...

83.220.50.155

Posted on April 25, 2012 at 00:29:03
maxim
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I am thinking about keeping a copy of my music files database in the Cloud.

The main advantage is to be able to sync the database simultaneously to computers in several locations. This also should be a good backup solution.

An important additional attraction is to be able to upload files to iPhone, iPad, etc directly from the Cloud, rather than through iTunes.

Which way shall I go: Dropbox, SugarSync, Google Drive, or ...?

PS I am not too worried about the price of the service as I expect it to go down substantially over the next couple of years.

 

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RE: in the Cloud ..., posted on April 25, 2012 at 02:20:21
J.Mac
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Posts: 3106
Location: Colorado
Joined: November 6, 2002
And how long would it take you to a) backup your collection and b) restore your collection in the event of a catastrophic loss of your library?

A $100 disk drive stored at your brother-in-law's house is infinitely more convenient, as well as cheaper.

 

RE: in the Cloud ..., posted on April 25, 2012 at 03:34:56
maxim
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I have not done real tests, but expect the speeds to be low. More specifically, in response to your question:

a) the first complete back-up will take a lot of time. But incremental back-ups, say, a couple of newly ripped CDs in a lossless format should not be too bad.

b) it does not matter, this is a once-in-a-lifetime experience (I hope).

And the good thing is that the sync happens in the background.

 

Run the numbers - the bandwidth will knock this dead, posted on April 25, 2012 at 05:56:59
Metralla
Audiophile

Posts: 7682
Location: San Jose, California
Joined: January 30, 2001
It could lead to even more compressed music files. The last thing audiophiles need or want.


Regards,
Geoff

 

RE: Run the numbers - the bandwidth will knock this dead, posted on April 25, 2012 at 06:30:13
maxim
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Why?

If I upload,say, an AIFF file to, say, Dropbox, I will then be able to download the same file to another computer. No compression.

There may be some compression involved when downloading to a mobile device, but that is not for serious listening in any event.

 

A file is a file, posted on April 25, 2012 at 07:27:36
JeffH
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as long as it's whole when uncompressed. Isn't this similar to the FLAC vs WAVE debate?

If you don't have anything nice to say, then ZIPIT! hehehe...

 

RE: in the Cloud ..., posted on April 25, 2012 at 08:35:15
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 1929
Location: SF Bay area
Joined: February 6, 2005
> a) the first complete back-up will take a lot of time.

> b) it does not matter, this is a once-in-a-lifetime experience (I hope).

A full restore might take a chunk of your life. You can do a full-backup over a period of weeks or months. When you want your music collection back, you don't want to wait weeks or months.

For iWhatever owners, it may be useful now. For backing up a collection of lossless files from 1000-2000 CDs, it is not there yet.

Bill

my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/

 

bandwidth restrictions a possible issue, posted on April 25, 2012 at 09:40:22
Many ISPs are now limiting the volume of traffic (both up & down) over their pipes. AT&T limits DSL to 150G per month or 250G for Uverse. Charter, Comcast and others have similar caps. You can find yourself subject to additional charges or even a speed reduction if you exceed the cap.

These caps aren't well advertised. You often have to read the fine print of your TOS agreement to find what they are.

For my music storage, I'd have to split my music upload over a 7 month period and not use my internet connection for any other activity to avoid exceeding my cap. The process would be repeated if I had to restore the collection - either incur a lot of additional charges or take months to get my collection back.

(The cap is not a problem otherwise, I've never used more than about a third of my limit and that is with Netflix and other video streaming.)

Just another item in the equation to consider.

 

Storage Costs will eat you alive, too., posted on April 25, 2012 at 09:42:21
Tony Lauck
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Storage Costs will eat you alive, too. Say you have 1 TB (which can be stored on a disk purchased for less than $100.) Dropbox pricing will be $800/year. For $20/month ($200/year) you only get 200 GB. Pricing for Amazon cloud services are similar. These services may make sense for backing up small amounts of data, but are inappropriate for reasonable sized collections of CD quality or higher resolution audio. The pricing of these services has not declined significantly in the past year, probably because the pricing of hard disks has gone up in this period due to the flooding in Thailand. Perhaps the trend of ever lower storage costs will resume, but I doubt it will happen any time soon.

I keep two drives in a safe deposit box, but I've been a bit lax about resynchronizing these files. I am considering pooling off-site backup with a neighbor. That way there won't be any costs beyond those required for the raw disks (and power to spin them). I would run file sync software overnight to keep backups synchronized. My present stumbling block is the low speed of my DSL uploads.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Having read some of the other responses...., posted on April 25, 2012 at 09:43:47
AbeCollins
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...many of them make a good point about the bandwidth and the amount of time it will take to do the first upload. Incremental uploads shouldn't be as bad. However, there are some so-called 'cloud' providers that allow you to send your first 'upload' to them on disk saving you the initial hours or days to get all of your large files up to their 'cloud'. But keep in mind, it will take you a long long time to get all your stuff back over the internet given bandwidth limitations.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with the 'cloud' just yet for my music collection. That being said, I am a firm believer in the benefits of a well integrated and executed cloud environment for many other tasks.

A well implemented 'cloud' is not just a remote disk........

Even though Apple is still working the kinks out of their iCloud, I find it immensely useful for most tasks. My Contacts, Calendar Appointments, Emails, Bookmarks, Photos, and Apps are all automagically sync'd among all of my Apple iDevices. Most of it works under Windows too but Windows is no longer my main operating environment so I haven't bothered to set it up on the Pee-Cees.

Our iPhones are automagically backed up to Apple's iCloud and I have first hand experience with how well this works. My wife's iPhone 4S developed a hardware bug leaving the bright LED ON at all times. One call to Apple support, FedEx Overnight of a new iPhone 4S, and the iCloud got my wife back on the air in no time.

We powered up her new iPhone (which arrived the next morning), went into settings, and told it to provision itself from her iCloud account. Magic! In less than an hour her phone settings, all of her apps, Contacts, Calendar entries, To-Do List, Email accounts, bookmarks, photos, etc. were all "back to normal" on her new iPhone. No fuss. It just works!


 

RE: Having read some of the other responses...., posted on April 25, 2012 at 10:01:37
Tony Lauck
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Keep in mind that all of your private data will be in the Cloud and can be read by the service. In addition, under a new "cyber security law" any of this data will be accessible by the NSA without a warrant. So much for the 4th Amendment.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Identity thieves love this, posted on April 25, 2012 at 11:34:48
fmak
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Posts: 10497
Joined: June 1, 2002
My Contacts, Calendar Appointments, Emails, Bookmarks, Photos, and Apps are all automagically sync'd among all of my Apple iDevices

 

being old and cynical +, posted on April 25, 2012 at 11:59:02
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 12051
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
compared to other countries.....

USA has some of the worst Internet and cell phone access going....

And with the way we embrace monopolies here, it's not going to get better. The cloud is not a viable solution, and it doesn't look like it ever will be, at least in the USA.
I am watching companies that tout this, and steering clear...


"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: being old and cynical +, posted on April 25, 2012 at 12:10:41
AbeCollins
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"The cloud is not a viable solution, and it doesn't look like it ever will be, at least in the USA."

Please define "cloud" before you say "it" is not a viable solution. ;-)

The general public has no idea what "the cloud" is. In fact, many businesses are still defining "the cloud". There are public and private clouds, web based cloud services, Software as a Service, Platform as a Service, Infrastructure as a Service, Managed Service, Service Commerce, etc. etc.



 

RE: Having read some of the other responses...., posted on April 25, 2012 at 12:15:48
AbeCollins
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Keep in mind that all of your private data will be in the Cloud and can be read by the service. In addition, under a new "cyber security law" any of this data will be accessible by the NSA without a warrant. So much for the 4th Amendment.

I'm not worried. NSA does not specifically look at my information and they have no need to want my information, unless I give them a reason to. The banks and credit card companies already have my "private" information as do many other organizations including online commerce sites where I buy and sell things.

I'm not too concerned with the 'evil cloud'.

 

I've been Fmak'd yet again..., posted on April 25, 2012 at 12:17:27
AbeCollins
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..yet another obscure and incomplete thought from fmak. Please elaborate.

 

Good points of course......, posted on April 25, 2012 at 12:57:35
Sordidman
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My best explanation, - in lieu of too much elucidation, - is any website, or hosting site that you have to pay a 3rd party ISP to get to.

If someone like "Unwired.com" gives you some hard drive space at their facility on their line-of-sight link, - then woo-hoo. But something like Unwired.com isn't cheap; and therefore not viable.

In this case, - me saying the cloud, - is anything beyond the standard, 600ft of CAT5 or wireless connectivity on your own router.

One cannot get effective internet access that makes music "usable" outside your home, and it's not going to improve: IMO.




"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

NSA and other issues, posted on April 25, 2012 at 14:13:12
You're right that most of us have a lot of financial info floating around on the internet - credit cards, social security numbers, health info, and the like, but off-site storage of music does introduce a new element.

"Copyright trolling" is an increasingly common situation where law firms are actively searching the internet for alleged violations of copyrighted info.

I have a friend who recently received a 35 page subpoena, via his ISP, for an alleged violation 8 months ago of downloading a movie he'd never even heard of. (I know this fellow well enough to be certain the allegation is BS on several levels.) He's now going to have to hire an attorney to sort things out.

ISPs automatically fork over the requested customer data when they receive these subpoenas, so its a natural next step for the trolls to start requesting info about large batches of copyrighted material being stored by a customer in a cloud setting. The burden of proof would fall on the customer to prove their copyright innocence versus the troll having to prove the opposite.

In short, for a lot of us, it is going to be quite a while before the level of trust is sufficient to store one's music collection in cyberspace. It's just too cheap, fast, easy and risk-free to keep a couple of spares on external USB drives versus the known and potential hassles of the cloud.

 

Paradigm change. , posted on April 25, 2012 at 19:10:28
Crimson
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Location: Jersey Shore
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My entire library is available, via lossy format, on any iDevice at any time. Skiing in western CO. Beaching in the Carribean. Business in Vermont. Moving a child from NJ to CT.

To say the cloud isn't quite 'there' is nonsense.


--eNjoY YouRseLf!.....

 

RE: Paradigm change. , posted on April 25, 2012 at 19:28:29
Tony Lauck
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For some of us, lossy format is unacceptable. I'd rather listen to silence.



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Likewise old and cynical..., posted on April 25, 2012 at 19:32:13
Jim Treanor
Audiophile

Posts: 1490
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What happens if there's a cloudburst?

Jim
http://jimtranr.com

 

RE: Likewise old and cynical..., posted on April 25, 2012 at 19:36:10
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 1929
Location: SF Bay area
Joined: February 6, 2005
> What happens if there's a cloudburst?


The best post in this thread.

Bill

my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/

 

RE: Likewise old and cynical..., posted on April 25, 2012 at 19:39:44
AbeCollins
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Posts: 22136
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What happens if the earth goes super nova and our pants catch fire?

Cloudburst Raining Digital Bits


 

RE: Likewise old and cynical..., posted on April 25, 2012 at 20:34:57
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 1929
Location: SF Bay area
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> and our pants catch fire?

We'll be em-bare-assed.

But don't worry, an iPhone will protect you. Great 3G coverage!

Bill



my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/

 

RE: Likewise old and cynical..., posted on April 25, 2012 at 20:42:49
AbeCollins
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forget 3G or 4G. I'm counting on the "Beam me up Scotty" iPhone App to be available before the cloudburst supernova catastrophe.

 

If you are divorced from reality.., posted on April 25, 2012 at 21:35:24
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 10497
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that is your problem.

Most who are not wedded to technology would be cautious as identity theft is a FACT of life.

You have also been Tony Laucked and mls-stled over your naive assertion.

 

If I go down the “Cloud” route it will be “as well as” & not “instead of” my current storage … , posted on April 26, 2012 at 04:28:10
three_sox
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...I see the Cloud as an adjunct to current methods of storage of music files and not as an alternative to storage of music files.

I find it hard to believe any serious music lover would not have a physical method of storing their files as well as having the cloud.

I suspect folks who wish to utilize the Cloud are not anal about the cost or ‘what-ifs’ may happen if the Cloud crashes.

My advice to all the nervous Nellies is to hide under the bed with a loaded gun just in case something bad happens. (this seems to happen a lot in some places)

I have run across several folks on AA who refuse to own a mobile phone. Some folks definitely prefer to live in the past.


Smile

Sox




 

RE: Paradigm change. , posted on April 26, 2012 at 04:34:43
Crimson
Reviewer

Posts: 6739
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In a car? On a plane? Skiing downhill? You're such a pompous ass. Music lover? I doubt it.


--eNjoY YouRseLf!.....

 

No Doubt That a consolidation of information is a tempting target, posted on April 26, 2012 at 05:14:58
Dynobot
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Once people start to develop trust in the "Cloud" they might start to put more and more personal information there....anything can be hacked. The cloud will also make for easy access by the Gov into the personal goings on of 'suspected' people.


Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

Agreed, I always keep a hard copy backup. Just what the hell is it with people who are running pell-mell, posted on April 26, 2012 at 05:51:11
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
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to dump every physical media copy of everything they own as fast as they can anyway. What is it, are they living in a 10 x 10 metro apartment and simply don't have any space at all? How much room can the average collection of media take up; a bookcase, a cabinet, some storage boxes???

 

RE: in the Cloud ..., posted on April 26, 2012 at 05:57:01
maxim
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Lively discussion, thanks for sharing ...

My main takeaway is that the upload speed is the bottleneck now, I was less worried about other concerns people had.

As a test, I uploaded 14 AIFF files, size total of 1GB, to Dropbox. It took about 40 min, way too slow. Perhaps has to be 10 times faster to become practical.

Interestingly, I have a fast internet connection in the office, with upload speed about 30MBps. I don't quite understand why Dropbox was so slow. I wonder if Sugarsync or Google or some other would be substantially faster ...





 

Governments are like entropy they are always increasing towards tyranny., posted on April 26, 2012 at 06:43:35
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 19, 2002
Remember the secret police of East Germany amassed a database of human scents to track down possible suspected subversive citizens. The Stasi collection held over 180,000 samples of urine and other biological material. Really, 180,000 of their own citizens dangerous, I mean really?!... I say total BS, it's institutional paranoia and insanity.

 

What was that Clint Eastwood line where he was the FBI agent, “I only trust a hardline.” ;-), posted on April 26, 2012 at 06:54:53
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 19, 2002
Movie “Blood Work”

 

hard copy backups not the issue, posted on April 26, 2012 at 06:55:41
In the example I noted, the concern has little to do with losing your physical copy of the data, but rather the cost of litigation if you're sued for copyright infringement as a result of your cloud storage.

If you do a Google search on "copyright troll", you'll find this is a very active area. While to date, this has been primarily focused on the peer-to-peer file sharing aspect, there is little doubt that the plaintiff attorneys are always on the lookout for ways to expand the field.

What happens when they discover your thousands of CDs ripped to the cloud server and demand that you prove each and every one was legitimately acquired? One can spend a lot of time and money on legal defense even when you've done nothing wrong.

 

RE: 180,000 of their own citizens dangerous, posted on April 26, 2012 at 07:00:37
Dynobot
Audiophile

Posts: 2787
Location: USA
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Surely the citizens of countries are dangerous.....Hmmmm


From Wiki:
In total, 7,225,800 adults were under correctional supervision (probation, parole, jail, or prison) in 2009 — about 3.1% of adults in the U.S. resident population.




Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

RE: Paradigm change. , posted on April 26, 2012 at 07:38:56
Tony Lauck
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"In a car? On a plane? Skiing downhill? You're such a pompous ass. Music lover? I doubt it."

What kind of music are you talking about? Music that is designed to be enjoyed by idiots so that there will be a mass market?

When I drive a car, fly a plane or ski I don't listen to music. These activities require one's full attention for safety. Also, one must be able to hear outside noises, which makes it necessary to play decent music (which has dynamics) at such high volume as to be dangerous to one's hearing. If one has noise cancelling headphones then it is possible to enjoy music as an airline passenger. However, I do this as infrequently as possible as I don't like to be treated like cattle and irradiated and molested at the security theater checkpoints.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

These were not civil criminals but political dissidents; sort of a Carrollian version of Nixon's “Hit List”, posted on April 26, 2012 at 07:50:18
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 19, 2002
written by a Hatter. Furthermore, I would say that any government that collects and stores a couple hundred thousand urine samples is the very definition of insanity in my book.

By the way, the Stasi “collection” was righteously destroyed after the wall fell. Now, however the German government is rebuilding such a collection under the BS rubric of anti-terrorism.

 

LOL!! - From the "Cloud" to Incarcerated Americans & Urine Samples, posted on April 26, 2012 at 07:57:22
AbeCollins
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Holy crap! What a bunch of paranoids!

 

Agreed, agreed, that is a serious risk one should consider., posted on April 26, 2012 at 08:03:37
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 19, 2002
I took it that many who are so anxious to store their media in the Cloud were wishing to store all their collection electronically so they could then dump their physical media.

 

Big Brother is Watching, posted on April 26, 2012 at 08:09:35
Dynobot
Audiophile

Posts: 2787
Location: USA
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And why is that Monkey staring at me like that!?!?!?!





Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

RE: If you are divorced from reality.., posted on April 26, 2012 at 08:10:09
AbeCollins
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"If you are divorced from reality..... that is your problem."

I don't have a problem with technology and the conveniences of modern life. I'm not the paranoid hiding under a rock!

"You have also been Tony Laucked and mls-stled over your naive assertion."

And what assertion might that be? Are you imagining something?

More fmak'ian non-sense.


 

Cloud File Sharing....Legal or Not???, posted on April 26, 2012 at 08:25:50
Dynobot
Audiophile

Posts: 2787
Location: USA
Joined: December 8, 2011
If a few people want to share a Cloud full of music can they do it???

Can me John and Joe give each other access rights to each other Clouds???

Will I get sued for making copies of my music and storing it in the cloud because making copies is a Federal Law violation?


Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

I didn't say Americans, it was East Germany and it was a true event it's recent history. News archives, posted on April 26, 2012 at 08:34:39
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 19, 2002
from the months after the Berlin Wall fell in 1989 recount what the German people discovered when the Stasi Headquarters building was raided.

Nor did I infer that putting data in the Cloud was somehow equivalent to handing over your DNA.

And, for your information it is the British that have the largest DNA database in the world with over 6 million individual samples, more than 10% of the population. There is even a Daily Telegraph article on this subject if you care to look it up and the Telegraph is generally considered to be a conservative-leaning UK newspaper not some tabloid rag.

 

largest DNA database in the world , posted on April 26, 2012 at 08:39:30
Dynobot
Audiophile

Posts: 2787
Location: USA
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It would be paranoid to question the purpose of that database.

Good sheep don't ask questions.



Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

Remember there are extremes at both ends of the bell curve. Just as one can be too paranoid another, posted on April 26, 2012 at 08:45:32
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 19, 2002
can be far too cavalier for their own good.

 

What's the lesson here, always be the wolf. , posted on April 26, 2012 at 08:53:37
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 19, 2002
Far too many people happily lining up to be the sheep.

 

syncing is not "using" the cloud, posted on April 26, 2012 at 09:01:20
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 12051
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
You're committing the same error of assumption...


"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

I am certain that the RIAA will perceive any sharing of your Cloud would be infringing on copyright., posted on April 26, 2012 at 09:04:22
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 19, 2002
It would be no different than peer to peer file sharing. Dropbox is implementing a policy to block links to files that are subject to a DMCA notice.

 

What Does This Portion of the Privacy Policy Mean To You??? RE: Google Cloud, posted on April 26, 2012 at 09:09:59
Dynobot
Audiophile

Posts: 2787
Location: USA
Joined: December 8, 2011
When you upload or otherwise submit content to our Services, you give Google(and those we work with) a worldwide license to use, host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works(such as those resulting from translations, adaptations or other changes we make so that your content works better with our Services), communicate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute such content.The rights you grant in this license are for the limited purpose of operating, promoting, and improving our Services, and to develop new ones."

I for one will not store anything in it....


Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

RE: What Does This Portion of the Privacy Policy Mean To You??? RE: Google Cloud, posted on April 26, 2012 at 09:30:37
AbeCollins
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"I for one will not store anything in it...."

I'm very cautious of social networking sites but to lump them all into the single category of the 'evil cloud' is just wrong.... not that you are doing this, but others are.

I don't think Google or Apple intend to change the appointments in my calendar or the addresses in my address book entries. ;-)

Oh by the way, everything you post here on AA is archived and I'm sure the manufacturers and reviewers are examining all the fishes in the fish bowl. Somehow I end up receiving a few unsolicited ads every couple weeks from manufacturers and dealers whom I have never contacted on my own. ;-)

 

I know you didn't. Dynobot mentioned Incarcerated Americans -nt, posted on April 26, 2012 at 09:39:54
AbeCollins
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Location: USA
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.

 

RE: Remember there are extremes at both ends of the bell curve. Just as one can be too paranoid another, posted on April 26, 2012 at 09:49:21
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 10497
Joined: June 1, 2002
Sums his response up.

 

RE: What's the lesson here, always be the wolf. , posted on April 26, 2012 at 09:52:26
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 10497
Joined: June 1, 2002
Wait till he gets his identity stolen, then he'll learn the lesson of being cavalier about security.

 

RE: What Does This Portion of the Privacy Policy Mean To You??? RE: Google Cloud, posted on April 26, 2012 at 10:05:12
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 12183
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since:
February 24, 2009
I am waiting for the pricing to come down. At that point I might store some backups, but only if the files that my computer sends are encrypted using military grade encryption and where my computer holds the only key. (I will keep the key backed up off line and stored in physically secure storage in multiple places, otherwise encrypting files is a recipe for losing them.)

Storing encrypted files precludes using cloud services that process information, e.g. allow editing data in the cloud or processing transaction data. However, it is possible to use cloud storage to hold encrypted information. If one does this it may be best to ensure that the file names are also encrypted.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Federal law? Have I missed something?, posted on April 26, 2012 at 10:35:50
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 12051
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
What is the difference between "legal" and "unauthorized?"




"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Unauthorized Copying is Against the Law, posted on April 26, 2012 at 10:47:07
Dynobot
Audiophile

Posts: 2787
Location: USA
Joined: December 8, 2011
Federal law provides severe civil and criminal penalties for the unauthorized reproduction, distribution, rental or digital transmission of copyrighted sound recordings. (Title 17, United States Code, Sections 501 and 506).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Means copying and storing Music in a Cloud could have RIAA knocking at your door.



Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

1 or two copies from a purchase has not been deemed, posted on April 26, 2012 at 10:49:13
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 12051
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
"illegal." And, it does not constitute redistribution..




"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Get this, posted on April 26, 2012 at 10:57:55
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 10497
Joined: June 1, 2002
''My Contacts, Calendar Appointments, Emails, Bookmarks, Photos, and Apps''

makes it easy for a hacker to pose as you. Contacts, Emails Photos!!!

 

"has not" does not mean "is not", posted on April 26, 2012 at 11:03:31
Dynobot
Audiophile

Posts: 2787
Location: USA
Joined: December 8, 2011
Its Illegal to copy without permission, lucky for us the RIAA has bigger fish to fry.

But when the CD says "Unauthorized duplication is in violation of applical laws" it means unauthorized duplication 1 thru any amount.


Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

RE: syncing is not "using" the cloud, posted on April 26, 2012 at 11:24:17
Crimson
Reviewer

Posts: 6739
Location: Jersey Shore
Joined: December 11, 2000
Apples fee-based Music Match service is not syncing, it's using cloud services.


--eNjoY YouRseLf!.....

 

Punishment means precedent, posted on April 26, 2012 at 11:31:03
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 12051
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
So...

And as the cases have demonstrated, "fair use" (1 or 2 copies) has not been deemed punishable, - and in that loose sense, - the term "unauthorized" is more applicable. Of course, - that's not even getting into the illegal practices of the recording industry.

And....

You have my permission to copy as many Sordid Humor CDs as you want.

And....

As far as the cloud, placing your file on a hard drive, at a data center, and giving someone share access to a facsimile of a recorded work, with a question of whether or not it will even be "usable" by that person: will be an even bigger stretch....Do you think that that will constitute "distribution?"


"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Distribute...., posted on April 26, 2012 at 11:54:39
Dynobot
Audiophile

Posts: 2787
Location: USA
Joined: December 8, 2011
dis·trib·ute
   [dih-strib-yoot] Show IPA
verb (used with object), dis·trib·ut·ed, dis·trib·ut·ing.
1.
to divide and give out in shares; deal out; allot.
2.
to disperse through a space or over an area; spread; scatter.
3.
to promote, sell, and ship or deliver (an item or line of merchandise) to individual customers, especially in a specified region or area.
4.
to pass out or deliver (mail, newspapers, etc.) to intended recipients.
5.
to divide into distinct phases: The process was distributed into three stages.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't think so because the files actually never left the server...if I or someone else can stream the files directly from the server. It would be like letting you listen to my headphones but I still have the CD.

But

I think as far as RIAA is concerned, the phsical medium CD is yours, however the content is theirs so they could probably even protest me letting you listen to their content without their permission.


Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

Basically yes, any access by anyone other than yourself would be distribution, according to the RIAA., posted on April 26, 2012 at 11:59:16
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 19, 2002
From the RIAA's point of view,

 

RE: Get this, posted on April 26, 2012 at 12:15:05
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 22136
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002
Yeah, I'm sure all the hackers of the world can't wait to pose as me. I have so much to offer making me a prime target. Thanks for the compliment.

 

The RIAA is more of a criminal organization, posted on April 26, 2012 at 12:23:48
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 12051
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
than the 12 year old girls that they are trying to prosecute.

My point was that putting your music on a hard drive located at a data center, or through a service like Carbonite, or one by Google: isn't a worry for the individual at this point. The recording industry may try to stop the data-center, or the service, as they know that they are not going to be able to get a handle on what any individual puts there...


"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Distribute...., posted on April 26, 2012 at 13:08:49
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 12051
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
We both know that I was talking about the distribution channel as applied to the recording industry, - consignment of CDs, - to stores, a business model for material that is (copywrited: sic). And, - on the other side, - fair use: and whether or not it is prosecuted.

We are not hearing stories of at least extreme prosecution of individual persons for fair use, - which has pretty much been let go of by the industry.

The industry now knows that the content of one CD purchased, or one MP3 album downloaded from Amazon is going to end up on likely, - 4 or 5 different devices. By that reasoning, they also know that it is unlikely that they can do anything at all about you doing the same with streaming music from some data center, or some data center + service, - like googlesync, icloud, sugarsync or Dropbox. They also know that you are very very unlikely to be sharing your streaming link and username and password to your data in the cloud with a friend.

So what they are doing is going after the providers, Megaupload, etc. But will they be able to touch icloud after being so deep in bed with Apple?

""they could probably even protest me letting you listen to their content without their permission.""

No, but they are going after "public performance" royalties where store clerks were bringing in their personal IPODS to work and playing it over a stereo.



"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Thanks, - you're using that eh? , posted on April 26, 2012 at 13:38:55
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 12051
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
Cool....

I am not quite in Tony's boat. But, I have a giant database that is too big for icloud, and I don't want to use lossy formats.

Glad that it's working for you.

Cheers,



"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

"Pompous ass" is a good description, posted on April 26, 2012 at 14:35:01
J.Mac
Audiophile

Posts: 3106
Location: Colorado
Joined: November 6, 2002
There's no shortage of them in this forum.

 

RE: in the Cloud ..., posted on April 26, 2012 at 14:57:26
magiccarpetride
Audiophile

Posts: 1114
Joined: March 31, 2010
Amazon S3 seems to be a good choice, especially since they keep improving their streaming capabilities.

During the days when I was able to write off the Amazon S3 storage costs as part of my business, I was experimenting with it, and it worked fine for streaming to my Squeezebox Touch. It still gets to be a bit steep if you're intending to store a lot of high definition format files (24/192), because these FLACs are sizeable. But the monthly charge is steadily going down, and I think this service is competitively priced.

If memory serves, I was paying 11 cents per gigabyte back then. Not sure how much is it now.

 

RE: "Pompous ass" is a good description, posted on April 26, 2012 at 15:56:13
Mercman
Reviewer

Posts: 5143
Joined: October 20, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
May 20, 2004
Always quick to shit on someone aren't you?

 

RE: "Pompous ass" is a good description, posted on April 26, 2012 at 17:22:50
J.Mac
Audiophile

Posts: 3106
Location: Colorado
Joined: November 6, 2002
Yeah, you're a real specimen.

 

RE: I've been Fmak'd yet again..., posted on April 26, 2012 at 17:26:44
J.Mac
Audiophile

Posts: 3106
Location: Colorado
Joined: November 6, 2002
Like getting hit with a stupid stick.

It's funny. When some of these guys give their views on non-audio issues, you start to see how completely out of touch with reality they are. Should put their audio opinions in a better light.

 

RE: in the Cloud ..., posted on April 26, 2012 at 17:34:14
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 12183
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since:
February 24, 2009
"If memory serves, I was paying 11 cents per gigabyte back then. Not sure how much is it now."

Last I checked, it's about the same. Not surprising as hard drive prices have gone up since the floods in Thailand. It will be a while before they get back to decreasing. Hopefully, I won't run out of space before then, but I am down to my last Terrabyte. :-)


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: "Pompous ass" is a good description, posted on April 26, 2012 at 17:46:57
Mercman
Reviewer

Posts: 5143
Joined: October 20, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
May 20, 2004
And you're the same low end stroker.

 

RE: What's the lesson here, always be the wolf. , posted on April 26, 2012 at 17:56:11
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 12183
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since:
February 24, 2009
I'm with you on this one, Fred.


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: What's the lesson here, always be the wolf. , posted on April 26, 2012 at 18:08:50
Mercman
Reviewer

Posts: 5143
Joined: October 20, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
May 20, 2004
Yea, you're right. You can't be too careful today.

 

RE: being old and cynical +What are, posted on April 26, 2012 at 22:04:21
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 10497
Joined: June 1, 2002
the reasons and motives for offering free storage of any kind, and why do computer users go for it?

Worth discussing.

 

There are security risks using Cloud based services for storage, remember when Dropbox accidentally, posted on April 27, 2012 at 05:36:00
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 19, 2002
unlocked all user accounts for 4 hours? Anyone using Cloud storage might want to look into using TrueCrypt to encrypt all their files before uploading to the Cloud. You can double by encrypting a file within an encrypted file. I take security seriously, others are too cavalier.

 

Some of these, posted on April 27, 2012 at 05:47:30
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 10497
Joined: June 1, 2002
IT and technology guys are way out of their depth when it comes to reality, risk, and probity.

In Britain, idiots like political advisers to key ministers are still being described openly in emails by News Corp staff as providing sensitive information illegally! These young turks never learn.

 

RE: What's the lesson here, always be the wolf. , posted on April 27, 2012 at 10:20:10
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 22136
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002
I strike a balance between cavalier and paranoid but thank you all for being so concerned for my well being. ;-)

 

Abe You Might Want To See This...., posted on April 27, 2012 at 12:19:42
Dynobot
Audiophile

Posts: 2787
Location: USA
Joined: December 8, 2011
FYI any pic taken from your iPhone also reveals your exact location within 15ft.

Now anyone who wants too can find out exactly were you live.

Is that important to you???


See link for News
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

When it's coupled with expensive services? It is called , posted on April 27, 2012 at 16:44:00
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 12051
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
front loading....

When they build a nuclear power plant, the contractor/salesman is long gone, gotten paid, and has flown far away. He cares not that the welds are not done to spec.

That leaves room to charge a ton of money when the hard drives get close to being full. They don't ever tell people that their connection is too slow to access anything. "Well, - we offer this 'second-tier' service that everyone is moving too, it's only $49 more per month."


"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Abe You Might Want To See This...., posted on April 27, 2012 at 20:49:37
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 22136
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002
"FYI any pic taken from your iPhone also reveals your exact location within 15ft."

Only if you leave your geolocation tagging information enabled. One swipe of a button and it's disabled, as we've done for both of our iPhones. BTW, many cameras have this feature too.

 

For sure, posted on April 27, 2012 at 21:35:33
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 10497
Joined: June 1, 2002
SSD prices are dropping; just bought a Crucial 256G for £0.62 per GB, for storing key music files on for use.

 

RE: When it's coupled with expensive services? It is called , posted on April 28, 2012 at 03:53:22
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 10497
Joined: June 1, 2002
Surely inmates know this and do not pay up for the costly service. No?

 

RE: For sure, posted on April 28, 2012 at 05:44:45
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 12183
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since:
February 24, 2009
The cost penalty is down to about 10 times.

The rust spinners better get their act in order and resume lowering prices. If they don't, in a few years they will be toast. SSDs will be cheaper as well as faster, quieter and less thirsty of power.



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

My experience with cloud music library storage/backup, posted on April 28, 2012 at 07:16:35
riboge
Audiophile

Posts: 606
Joined: June 25, 2008
Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but I thought I'd briefly share my experience over the last 1.5yr. with using cloud backup for my music files.

It took 45 days to upload my 750GB of flac files to Onlinestoragesolutions.com back in 2010. The storage was unlimited for $30/yr. Then I would periodically upload via ftp batches of newly acquired files. After a few months I started having problems accessing the account via ftp. I would complain and get some help eventually. At two points they transferred my files to a new server that they promised would work better. Eventually I came to a point when I could only occasionally access or upload. For a period of 3 months they kept saying it would be fixed but wasn't. Then finally they admitted they lost the files now over 825GB. They promised a refund but never sent one.

This was never my sole backup. I always kept a local one on an external hdd. One would be crazy ever to do otherwise. However, online backup has great advantages as some have outlined. I live in two places and keeping the library up to date both places is greatly aided. Also files can be accessed from other computers and mobile devices. It serves as remote backup as generally defined, though my first experience above shows the limits of this.

Now I use Crashplan which also offers unlimited storage for roughly $60/yr (depending on how long you sign up for). It uses proprietary software you download and set as you like to backup from your basic hdd to online or to an attached drive, or the attached drive to online--or even to backup to someone else's harddrive over the net and allow them to backup to you. It even allows backup from a network drive if you can get it set up. This is rare among cloud providers. It keeps up with highly customizable schemes and frequencies of backup to keep the backup up to date and to keep defined past versions. They are much better designed and organized and have been completely accessible and reliable so far after a few months. As before the initial uploading takes a very long time, but with a local backup that is not such an issue really. Restoring is by selection of one, many or all files online which are put in zip file(s)and downloaded. This is much faster than upload but still not like accessing a local drive for sure.

Doing this, especially as the services improve, seems a no-brainer to me given that these are not personal info files so security is not an issue. It is cost effective and convenient enough as a means of second backup.

 

drive prices are back down, posted on April 28, 2012 at 08:16:12
bwb
.

I'm seeing 2TB drives for close to $100. That's about where they were before the flood.

.

 

That is extremely expensive, posted on April 28, 2012 at 08:20:26
bwb
.

A Terabyte would cost you over $100 a month. You could buy a Terabyte drive every month for less. I know that doesn't give you the same functionality as cloud storage but it points out how expensive it is.

.

 

RE: drive prices are back down, posted on April 28, 2012 at 08:25:04
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 12183
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since:
February 24, 2009
Good news. I am down to my last Terabyte. Perhaps hard drives will start reappearing in Frys.com's weekly specials soon.


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: drive prices are back down, posted on April 28, 2012 at 10:44:52
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 10497
Joined: June 1, 2002
It depends on the make. Reliable makes such as Toshiba are still expensive.

I avoid Samsungs and Seagates either because poor reliability with the ones I have had. The Samsung warranty in Europe is not worth the paper it is written on.

 

I've had very good luck with Seagates, posted on April 28, 2012 at 11:37:29
bwb
.

I run mine 24/7 and have been for a few years. I have several friends who have been doing the same. I do take them out of their cases and have a fan blowing across them which keeps them cool to the touch.

I know my small sample is too few to be statistically significant but I'm happy with them. I've had several Western Digital fail. One was the controller and not the drive so when you do have one crap out it is worth swapping the controller to see if that fixes it.


.

 

RE: drive prices are back down, posted on April 28, 2012 at 18:49:23
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 12183
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since:
February 24, 2009
I've had one Maxtor, one Seagate and one Western Digital drive fail. I suspect that it's specific models and manufacturing plants that are at issue, not specific brands. I happen to have many more Seagate spinners than any other brand and have been satisfied with their reliability. Most have been 1.5 TB models.

I haven't tried Toshiba.



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: drive prices are back down, posted on April 29, 2012 at 01:28:50
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 10497
Joined: June 1, 2002
I have had 3 Samsungs fail after 1-2 years. I definitely hold this against them.

Seagates tend to be variable wrt noise and vibration

 

Those infamous Hitachi “Deathstar” series failed spectacularly, two of them took out a lot of my data., posted on April 29, 2012 at 06:53:22
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 19, 2002
The sarcastic moniker was well earned I wonder if any of those Hitachis escaped self-destruction.

Now, I have generally had good luck with Western Digital and fair to so-so with Seagate.

 

Far too many f.b.n. Corporations operate under the Barnum principle of “a sucker born every minute”. , posted on April 29, 2012 at 07:03:05
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 19, 2002
f.b.n. fly by night.

 

RE: My experience with cloud music library storage/backup, posted on April 29, 2012 at 10:25:42
maxim
Audiophile

Posts: 254
Joined: May 22, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
September 24, 2013
Thanks, riboge, that is very relevant experience to share.

How did it feel uploading for FORTY FIVE days? And then doing it again, I presume?

More importantly, how did you choose your provider? Will they have different upload speeds? Or is it all just about price and reliability?

I have similar main motivation: the need to keep the database up to date in two separate locations. I am sure I will go into the cloud one day.

 

RE: My experience with cloud music library storage/backup, posted on April 29, 2012 at 13:05:33
riboge
Audiophile

Posts: 606
Joined: June 25, 2008
I don't think the upload speed would vary that much as it appears to be a function of ones router, internet connection, pathway to their server, etc. I have found in both my locations that the upload speed one gets from testing at such as speedtest.net cannot be realized, nowhere near, when doing this. Some of it is limitations of one's router and who knows what else. With any of the services you set up what to upload and it goes on in the background so you can continue with your computer as always during the interminable upload. Some services do allow you at a price to send an hdd with what you want stored, which you then continue to update from there. Consequently, patience is a necessity going this route.
Price and reliabilty are first. Features do vary like how the files are stored, how they are liste and accessed, whether ftp connection is available, etc. I did a fair bit of looking and considering before going this time with Crashplan. As I mentioned, its unusual advantages are unlimited storage at a great price and the possibility of backing up network drives. I play my cMP2 with files drawn from a network drive so for me that is key. They also offer readily available and quite helpful support. (I of course have no connection to them except as customer).

 

Have a look, posted on April 29, 2012 at 22:05:53
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 10497
Joined: June 1, 2002
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2137152/Lonely-life-techno-addict-thousands-48-hours-speaking-human.html

 

There are only 2 LARGE disk drive companies: Seagate & WD, posted on April 30, 2012 at 11:06:53
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 22136
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002
I've had good and bad luck with Seagate and Western Digital over the years. They've all had their ups and downs. I'm perfectly happy with my Seagate drives from the past few years.

Seagate and Western Digital are the dominant players in the business of spinning rust. The other two with minimal market share are Toshiba & Hitachi.... but WD is in the process of buying Hitachi's disk drive business.

That leaves Toshiba as the low volume odd man out.

Samsung's spinning rust division was recently acquired by Seagate.

IBM's HDD business was acquired by Hitachi almost 10 years ago.



 

List of defunct hard disk manufacturers, posted on April 30, 2012 at 14:33:11
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 12183
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since:
February 24, 2009


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

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