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Wonderful CD's you may have forgotten about in your own collection?

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Posted on July 7, 2012 at 12:58:14
Chris from Lafayette
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 I'm assuming that a lot of folks here at the AA site have accumulated lots of recordings over the years - in the thousands probably. It's easy to forget or overlook some of the recordings in your own library. I was just thinking about this today as I re-discovered the following CD on the Budapest Music Center label:



It's a very well-recorded CD of in-concert performances of the "Festival" Overture by Dohnanyi, 7 Songs by Debussy (orchestrated by Zoltan Kocsis), and Rachmaninoff's Symphony No. 1, with Kocsis conducting the Hungarian National Philharmonic Orchestra. The Dohnanyi work is an entirely characteristic work of great charm and occasional brilliance, and Kocsis' performance of the Rachmaninoff Symphony has a similar freshness to his well regarded SACD of the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra. In fact, one of the Amazon posters claims that this Rachmaninoff performance is "a real revelation" and is perhaps the best recorded performance of this work. Kocsis seems to be one of those musicians who can "do it all": he's an excellent pianist, an interesting and accomplished conductor (even considering his small number of recordings in this role), and, as we hear on this recording, an inventive orchestrator.

Some years ago, my wife and I actually saw a concert performance (at the Mondavi Center at UC Davis) of some of the Kocsis-orchestrated Debussy songs with the exact same performers as on this CD. The soprano, Julia Hajnoczy, not only had a beautiful voice, but was also a beautiful woman, with striking waist-length hair. (I think she's a little older in the picture below.)



I think Kocsis has made a real study of the Debussy songs, because there's another recording, on the Hungaroton label, of his orchestrations of more and different Debussy songs, again with Julia Hajnoczy:



The first CD above is not the type of recording one ordinarily thinks about, with its disparate and slightly unusual repertoire on an obscure label. As I say, I had forgotten about it, but I was delighted to make its acquaintance again. Has anyone else here had the experience of making a serendipitous rediscovery of a recording you had forgotten about in your collection?

 

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RE: Wonderful CD's you may have forgotten about in your own collection?, posted on July 7, 2012 at 16:46:05
MichaelV8


 
Rameau for harpsichord by Trevor Pinnock. Wish I knew where to begin looking.

 

Perfect example - I'd forgotten about the CRD label myself! [nt], posted on July 7, 2012 at 17:31:49
Chris from Lafayette
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I didn't really forget them........, posted on July 7, 2012 at 17:35:31
Chuck Y
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 but I don't know why I stopped listening to them other than I just have not been listening to jazz vocalists much in a long time.

Rene Marie has 4 albums produced by MAXJAZZ in the early 2000's. She also has a post MAXJAZZ discography described in her entry in Wikipedia. She composes much of the music she performs. She has a smaller toned voice, probably more suited for ballads than belting, but is otherwise fine. I can't think of a singer coming on the jazz scene since 2000 I've enjoyed more.

Sorry Chris, she is not in the 'Babe' catagory, but neither was Shirly Horn for that matter. Don't let it stop you if you're otherwise inclined. :-)

 

The "Babe" category, posted on July 7, 2012 at 17:49:46
Chris from Lafayette
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 That was the odd thing: I wouldn't expect to forget a "babe" recording. However, in my own defense, there's no "pictorial" of Ms. Hajnoczy in the CD booklet - in fact, there's no picture of her at all. The one I posted was courtesy of the Hungarian National Opera.

 

Budapest Music Center label and Disbelief, posted on July 9, 2012 at 13:00:55
Mike Porper
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 Never heard of it.

As for Kocsis, he's one of those artists [a word that applies to him more accurately, rather than to some gun-toting rap star] who immediately trigger cognitive dissonance.

Can a pianist really be a true conductor? Sure, most conductors played piano; many quite well. But, there's a difference. Firstly, learning piano, or some instrument, are required during study at conservatory, or majoring in music [or even minoring] at university. Most average listeners don't know that, I think.

Secondly, artists who start out primarily as pianist, but switch to conducting, do so very early in their lives, thus devoting themselves fully to mastering the orchestra, score reading, and the orchestral literature.

Thus, I've never fully trusted Ashkenazy as a conductor, because he really was, and still is, actually a pianist. I recall reading an interview with him when he made the switch in the mid-80s. With refreshing candor, he said that maintaining the skill necessary to be world class concert pianist was incredibly difficult, and more than he was interested in continuing. Thus, he was turning to conducting.

Now, yuo've made it even worse by revealing that Kocsis is an orchestral arranger. Do you know how hard that skill is? There are composers who've never mastered orchestration! This guy's a pianist!

Immediately, my instinct says, "he can't be any good". How could he? And, yet, there he is. Taking on...Debussy. Debussy!

Boggles the mind.

 

RE: Budapest Music Center label and Disbelief, posted on July 9, 2012 at 14:39:23
Chris from Lafayette
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 Mike - Check it out for yourself: you can get this recording at Berkshire Record Outlet for only $5.99. It won't break the bank! ;-)

I don't agree with everything Kocsis does in his orchestrations - for instance, his use of xylophone touches in "Fantouches" seems to me very un-Debussy-like. But OTOH, Ravel's orchestration of Moussorgsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition" is very un-Moussorgsky-like - and yet very successful. Kocsis' orchestrations certainly show an excellent knowledge of the orchestra, and they are far from such "mustache on the Mona Lisa" monstrosities as Schoenberg's orchestration of Brahms's G-minor Piano Quartet, or Shostakovitch's re-orchestration of the Schumann Cello Concerto. Overall, I like Kocsis' orchestrations a lot - and I've just ordered the Hungaroton CD of his other Debussy-song orchestrations. (This disc also includes Kocsis' orchestrations of the two movements of "Le tombeau de Couperin" that Ravel didn't orchestrate himself. So Kocsis' putting himself up against one of the greatest orchestrators in the in the history of music shows some cojones at the very least!) ;-)

As for your other main point, I certainly agree about Ashkenzay (Barenboim too for that matter) - although he was already well on his way towards mediocrity by the time he took up conducting IMHO. Sad, because his early recordings (the ones on Testament) are so good. On the concert I saw at UC Davis, Kocsis was both soloist and conductor in the Liszt E-flat Concerto, and it seemed to me that there was no deterioration in his skills as a pianist.

 

Ashkenazy, posted on July 9, 2012 at 15:14:28
pbarach
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 I don't know why you don't "trust" him. Is the distrust based on the musical results he gets or on your idea that pianists can't develop into good conductors in midlife?

I have heard Ashkenazy conduct the Cleveland Orchestra probably ten times over the years. He was appointed Principal Guest Conductor for several seasons beginning in the late 1980s, which was a period when he was still quite active as a pianist. It was clear that he was thoroughly prepared, knew how to beat clearly, and got musically valid and interesting interpretations with the orchestra. His recordings in Cleveland and elsewhere with major orchestras testify to his skill--and these are NOT the result of canny editing to make silk purses. I also highly doubt why he got repeated engagements as music director with top ensembles unless it was because he knew how to conduct!

The last time I saw him in Cleveland was a few years ago, when he conducted Elgar Symphony 1--not an easy piece to hold together, but he did so. He also led a fine accompaniment on that date to Janine Jensen in the Tchaikovsky concerto.

 

I have the Kocsis Hungaroton and it's good, posted on July 9, 2012 at 16:41:02
srl1
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I'll have to make a note to get the other CD from Berkshire. Thanks for the tip.

I agree that Ashkenazy has gone downhill as a pianist (I met him arguably in fine form at Meadow Brook in 1966 or 1967 when I was the driver for all of the Festival soloists), but I've always enjoyed his conducting, especially Russian repertoire like Rachmaninov and Shostakovich. He's like the children in Lake Wobegon -- above average.

We'll continue to disagree on Daniel Barenboim. I find him fascinating both as a pianist and conductor. I've been spending a lot of time on his new Beethoven Symphony cycle. It continues to grow on me.

 

Yes, It's a mental block, posted on July 10, 2012 at 07:35:36
Mike Porper
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 "your idea that pianists can't develop into good conductors in midlife?"

Yes, that's what it is. I know it's my own problem; a little chauvinism in my mind. That said, it's an attitude that's hard to get over.

 

Thanks for the Berkshire Tip and that Schoenberg/Brahms, posted on July 10, 2012 at 07:44:06
Mike Porper
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 BTW - I've heard the Schoenberg/Brahms in concert. I can say 2 things about:

1. It's pretty much what you've called it, although it's so very skilfully done

2. While I cringed at this passage or that, and the original is, of course, the real thing; nevertheless, in performance - that is, in concert and not canned [i.e., recorded] - it's enormous fun, and very, very entertaining.

Funny that you brought it up as an example, since I'd just heard the CSO perform it this past concert season. Another one of those rare concert events.

 

I agree re Ashkenazy as a conductor, posted on July 10, 2012 at 09:48:51
Chuck Y
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 I think it is sad to see broad dismissals of him which by inference dismisses performances he has delivered in both Sibelius and Rachmaninoff. The net result of this is that some easily influenced readers may never experience them at a substantial loss. I'm sure that applies as well to other performances. I'd love to hear him live but we've never been in the same place at the same time.

 

I've played in SF Sym with him, he is a great musician in every respect. His, posted on July 11, 2012 at 10:43:43
oldmkvi
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 Don Qixote and Dance of the 7 Veils with Cleveland, cd, is wonderful.
Musicians love and repect him.
Inmates here who claim to know a lot about how music Should Be don't have a clue!

 

Kocsis, posted on July 11, 2012 at 15:31:08
Amphissa
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The only one of these CDs I'll comment on is the first on the list. As a Rachmaninoff nut, and my favorite of his symphonies being the 1st, I've had this for years. I bought it, listened to it, put it in its appointed spot alphabetically in the collection, and there it has gathered dust since. There are several fine recordings of the Rachmaninoff Symphony No. 1. This is not among them.

At the time, I had no other recordings of the Dohnanyi Festival Overture to compare to this one and was not familiar with the Debussy songs, so those were just "filler" for me at the time. I might give the CD a listen again, just to see how I like his take on those.

What an odd selection of pieces to put on a CD. They have nothing in common. Which is sort of the way I always felt about his performances of the Rachmaninoff piano concertos. Kinda weird. Certainly not "desert island" choices.


"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)

 

Ashkenazy?, posted on July 11, 2012 at 15:44:36
Amphissa
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 I am not one to instantly dismiss a conductor just because he was once a performing/recording soloist. Abbado is an example of a pianist turned consuctor who has been quite good over the years, IMO.

Perhaps you missed Ashkenazy's recordings of the Rachmaninoff Symphonies, Symphonic Dances and other orchestral works with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. IMO, one of the better traversals of this wonderful music. And I've been present when he conducted Sibelius, as well as hearing the CDs, and it is definitely not so easily dismissed.

And of course Rachmaninoff was, himself, an outstanding conductor as well as one of the greatest pianists of all time. So I'm not one to generalize.

However, I cannot say the same about Kocsis. His recordings of the Rachmaninoff piano concertos left much to be desired, IMO, and I'm not enamoured of this take on the Rachmaninoff Symphony No. 1.


"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)

 

Thanks - I was hoping you'd comment, posted on July 11, 2012 at 17:57:12
Chris from Lafayette
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 I once saw Kocsis perform the Third Concerto - and in fact, if I remember correctly, his recordings were "assembled" from the in-concert performances he gave at that time with the SF Symphony and De Waart. This was in the 80's in his younger days when I guess he could still be considered a "hunk" - I remember that there was one woman in the second violin section who simply could not take her eyes off of him during the whole performance! ;-)

But as to the actual performance, I feel they (all four concertos) were undermined by that horrible multi-microphoning that Philips was doing at the time. I owned those discs for a while, and my impression was that the live performance sounded WAY better than the CD's did. The recordings did scant justice to the performance as it sounded in the hall. This is a case where we might have a much better impression of Kocsis' playing, if only the engineering had been decent. And in any case, I much prefer his playing to Ashkenazy's in these works - although Ashkenazy receives much better engineering, especially in his earlier Second with Kondrashin and Third with Fistoulari.

Regarding the First Symphony, I'll defer to your opinion about the performances. Although I do like this symphony, I find it not nearly as interesting as the Second and Third symphonies (despite the often fragmentary nature of that latter work), and I don't know it nearly as well as those works (and not nearly as well as you do). I will say however that the reminiscence of the First Movement's main theme at the end of the first of the Symphonic Dances is always a very moving moment for me. BTW, I thought the Amazon comment about the Kocsis performance was interesting.

 

RE: Ashkenazy?, posted on July 11, 2012 at 18:31:50
Chris from Lafayette
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 I'm replying to your post, but I'm trying to include ideas from other posts too.

The whole issue of Ashkenazy as a conductor is very interesting. I must say I'm not convinced by his conducting prowess at all, and I didn't think much of those Concertgebouw Rachmaninoff recordings. There have been a couple of posts in this thread indicating that the players love him as a conductor, and that certainly counts for something (and I know that Sir Adrian Boult made some very positive comments about his conducting), but from the excerpts I've seen of his rehearsals, I'm just not that impressed, nor am I impressed by the resulting performances, many of which suffer IMHO from terminal blandness.

In fact, the whole phenomenon that certain conductors are beloved by their orchestras has no correlation IMHO to their resulting performances. I was just thinking about this during the last week in connection with another conductor who, by some accounts, is beloved by the orchestras he works with, and that would be Jiri Belohlavek. For instance, Ivan Moravec spoke very highly of him in a conversation with me, and I had a friend who had an administrative position in the Detroit Symphony who told me that the orchestra members loved working with him. And yet, I was just comparing Belohlavek's performance of Suk's early E-major Symphony with Neumann's, and, to me, the difference was night and day, despite the far superior engineering on the Belohlavek recording. Sometimes, it comes down to the most basic things, such as deciding where the main line (Hauptstimme) is and where the secondary lines (Nebenstimmen) are. When Belohlavek conducts this work, it's all one big mishmash - nothing is differentiated, and it makes Suk seem almost incompetent as an orchestrator. (I'm exaggerrating, but not as much as you may think.) It's as if Belohlavek has no sense of texture at all compared to Neumann in this work. And yet, Belohlavek is a beloved conductor and is even admired by musicians I highly respect (such as Moravec). Go figure.

I feel much the same way about Ashkenazy as a conductor. As I mentioned, I do like many of his earlier recordings as pianist, such as the EMI's now on Testament, and the very early Deccas. But I haven't been moved or excited his performances for quite some time now.

 

RE: Ashkenazy?, posted on July 12, 2012 at 19:06:20
Amphissa
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 Maazel and Haitink are two other conductors loved by musicians, yet I find their performances (for the most part) dreadfully boring. But I was not aware that musicians loved Ashkenazy so much.

There are recordings in the Ashkenazy/RCO box that I think are better than others, of course, but most of the competitive box sets of Rachmaninoff's orchestral works are pretty bad overall. And Ashkenazy's recording of the 1st symphony in that set is one of the better performances. A bit too civilized, perhaps, but there are parts that he gets right that most recordings/performasnces miss entirely, and for that alone, I appreciate it.

Like you, I prefer his early piano recordings. Love those Deccas.

"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)

 

Let's see.... there's ..... I mean.... Damn, I forget. nt, posted on July 13, 2012 at 19:03:10
tinear
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 d

 

I can't remember... nt, posted on July 14, 2012 at 09:19:12
SambaMaster
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 nt

 

Hey - you guys are stealing each other's gags! [nt] ;-), posted on July 14, 2012 at 13:13:33
Chris from Lafayette
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Yeah, and both parties in Congress equally are responsible for gridlock., posted on July 14, 2012 at 18:48:53
tinear
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 Not...

 

OK, OK - He stole your routine! Geez, tin! [nt] ;-), posted on July 14, 2012 at 23:40:26
Chris from Lafayette
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Askenazy's Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances , posted on July 15, 2012 at 11:09:50
Chuck Y
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 Has been my unquestioned standard for years. I'd forgotten that I even have others (many in fact). This preference existed even though the recording was somewhat dry on my system. I loved the rhythm he imparted as well as the way it was recorded. Long story short - I went through my collection and discovered Termorkanov's with the St Petersburg PO on RCA. Performance wise I think he gives up little to Ashkenazy and recording wise the sound was a bit warmer with better spatial differentiation.

While I'm back testing this thread's statute of limitations, I was in the dusty bins and pulled out two Lyrita discs - 'Imogen Holst conducts Gustav Holst' and 'Boult conducts Holst'. SRCD223 and SRCD222 respectively.

Refreshing to hear something by Holst other than the Planets. Not to place values on music, and this is not earthshaking stuff, but it is likely to be played more often than Planets. :-) FWIW I found the Boult disc the more interesting of the two.

 

RE: Askenazy's Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances , posted on July 15, 2012 at 13:08:09
Kal Rubinson
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 A good one. I would add Previn/LSO and Jansens/RCO (mch SACD) to the top group.

 

I'm a consistent guy! nt, posted on July 22, 2012 at 17:30:04
tinear
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 d

 

Does that Imogen Holst recording, posted on July 23, 2012 at 13:16:28
jult52
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 have "Egdon Heath" on it? That's a piece I've been listening to over and over again recently (in a very good Andrew Davis performance). It's mysterious and certain parts of it are very beautiful.

 

I was very, very much turned off Ashkenazy, posted on July 23, 2012 at 13:20:33
jult52
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 as a conductor by his recording of the Sibelius 4th with the Philharmonia Orchestra, which I thought was a bland, insensitive performance. The disc also contained the very interesting Lounnotar with Elisabeth Soderstrom which I think it's fair to describe as a mess of an interpretation.

It looks like I should reconsider and open myself to the possibility that Ashkenazy did some good things on the podium.

 

RE: Does that Imogen Holst recording, posted on July 23, 2012 at 15:17:26
Chuck Y
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 No. I have no other version but I believe it has been recorded by Previn on EMI, Hickox on Chandos, and David Lloyd-Jones on Naxos. As you, I like Davis' version and I just sleep thru his Planets. :-)

 

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