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Building a room for my Magnepans

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Posted on February 8, 2015 at 17:05:14
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Good evening all. Its been quite some time since I've posted on this fine forum.... frankly its been quite sometime since I've even heard my Maggie 3.6s.My wife and I have been in the process of building our new home for roughly 2yrs. Now that the house is built I am in the process of finishing the basement where I have built the basement around a sound room that is suited for my speakers. I contacted the fine folks at Magnepan and asked what is the recommended room size for my 3.6 speakers and unfortunately they didn't really have a set ratio or figure for me. They did say their Dad has a 20' x 30' room with 10' ceilings that sounded amazing with their 20.1s..... taking their 3 x 2 x 1 ratio into consideration..... I also called the boys at Cardas, thankfully some of those guys actually run 3.6s in their systems. They gave me some figures to work with as well and some pointers and I went to work.

I am sharing this with you guys because I am sure we all share the same passion in the world of planar speakers... I am also interested in some pointers if y'all would be so kind since I know there are some veteran planar guys on here.

My room:

Dimensions 22'4" x 13'11"x9ft ceiling.(One longwall is skewed 1" in the back for sound waves to decay quicker) so my room is 14' wide in the back fyi. Also keep in mind my 9' ceiling will drop a few inches if I put in the false floor. Current floor is concrete since its in the basement.

Room is 8" on center studs on all 4 sides.

I plan to use roxull sound proofing on all 4 walls and ceiling

The door is solid and sealed

I am putting a false floor in the room, I am toying with how tall to make the floor. Perhaps 2x4s laying on their side then subfloor adhered to that.... but that is still to be determined.

I am planning carpet for the flooring..... does anybody object??

Strictly Vinyl no digital.... I am sure there are plenty that object, but thats how i roll :)

I am taking the purist approach for this room. I decided to only have my two Magnepan speakers and a couch in this room. There will be nothing else in there.(except bass traps, wall treatments etc) My TT and amps/Preamps will all be right outside the room. Therefore I will not hear amp fans, stylus contact etc. Just my speakers.

I am using LED can lights that are very flat to roll with the ceiling so sound waves will have minimal obstructions.

That about sizes it up. The room at this very moment is framed in and wired. I hope to get the basement drywalled within a month or so. The false floor is not in yet. Again. feel free to give me pointers or let me know where I have gone wrong haha. Thanks for reading guys, I envy all of you who can listen to their Planars right now. I am jealous.

Thanks,

Jim



 

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RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 8, 2015 at 18:14:05
neolith
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I am not anywhere close to being an authority on room treatments but I would be concerned about overdamping by using Roxul rock wool on all the walls and ceiling. 2" Roxul will absorb the mid bass and upwards but has limited effectiveness below 125Hz so you may end up with a dead room that still has bass resonances. You may want to take look over at the Acoustic Circle forum on AudioCircle to get some ideas and guidance.




I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.



 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 8, 2015 at 18:32:57
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Neolith. Thanks for your post. To confirm I mean I am using sound proofing behind the drywall on all 5 sides of the room. Are you assuming I am using the sound proofing on the surface of the drywall inside the room?

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 8, 2015 at 22:03:27
pictureguy
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Posts: 6889
Location: SoCal
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to better break up modes, you might consider replacing roxull on 1 or 2 sides with 2x gypsum board.
Also, a 3:2:1 ratio is NOT good. Even multiples of length promote 'bad' vibes.
It also might be advantageous to do an OFFSET STUD wall where you will lose 2" of width while having 2 stud walls. Each is offset from the other. BTW studs are typically 16" on center not 8".
Between the studs, you can weave sound deadening material. I don't have a current link, but I saw some very heavy stuff in sheet form.


\Please check out 'room mode calculator' and enter your values and look at the frequency spread. You might be fairly close to a PHI ratio'd room, which is a reasonable starting place.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 9, 2015 at 05:43:42
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
I apologize perhaps I didn't explain my original post very well.

My room dimensions reflect that I did not use the 3 2 1 ratio. I also didn't think it was the way to go. I used the Cardas golden ratio for my room dimensions.

Picture guy. In order to make the walls more rigid I could do one of two things.. Do 16" on center studs with two layers of drywall, or 8" on center with a single layer of drywall....so I went with double studs and single layer of drywall. The rest of my house has 16" on center studs :)


I am using the Roxull sound proofing BEHIND the drywall to keep the sound inside the room. I am not putting the Roxull on the surface of the drywall inside the room.

So do some of you not agree that I should use the roxull in my walls and ceiling behind the drywall?? I was understanding that is the way to go for several reasons. Please explain if you disagree......

Also, Pictureguy, I am not understanding what you mean. I built one long wall 1" off square. So as you measure towards the back of my room it will move out very slightly. Showing an inch wider in the back then in the front(behind my speakers)

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 9, 2015 at 06:39:19
neolith
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I figure you meant as insulation behind the dry wall. I think Roxul in the ceiling will be great to help isolate the rest of the home from your raucous carrying-ons in the man cave :) but it might be too much in all the walls. I think I read once about alternating the spaces between the studs but I would not swear to this.



I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.



 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 9, 2015 at 06:52:54
neolith
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One other comment on the room "flair". While it is a good idea not to have the opposite walls parallel, you might want to consider the future when you sell - the next owner may not appreciate "non-square" walls. OTOH, if this is not a consideration -- you plan to be buried in your man-cave like me -- then you might want to consider having the ceiling slightly canted as well. I have about 4" drop over 20' at my place.



I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.



 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 9, 2015 at 10:01:55
Norman M
Audiophile

Posts: 750
Location: NYC Suburb
Joined: December 9, 2012
IMO 'mancave' is an oxymoron. A listening room should be right up there on the main floor, along with all its other rooms. What kinda 'man' has to do his listening in a 'cave'?

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 9, 2015 at 10:06:08
pictureguy
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Posts: 6889
Location: SoCal
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with the modest amount the room is 'out of square' I'll bet NOBODY notices even if you TELL them!
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 9, 2015 at 10:10:55
pictureguy
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Posts: 6889
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
I'm not going into the history of math, but trust me, Cardas DIDN'T invent or discover the golden ratio. Its been around a LONG time. And while the Cardas site DOES mention Fibonacci, they fail to mention that PHI, or 1.618 has been known for a at least 4500 years. The Great Pyramid was built using that knowledge. Either that, or the builders got lucky about 30 times.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 9, 2015 at 11:33:27
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 4067
Joined: July 6, 2002
Fortunately you did not do a 1:1 1:1.5 or 1:2 proportion so you will have less of a one note bass problem and can probably do a "Limage" setup if you wanted to.1.6 is a good proportion

I would put carpet on the concrete and not raise the floor on wood unless it is way too uneven. You want to have your racks spiked to the concrete and not have the wood flooring in the way. If you spike your racks don't spike the speakers or subs in order to avoid feedback - yes even on a concrete slab you can short circuit vibrations.Not a happy situation for turntables.



.

 

One who wants to stay married..(nt), posted on February 9, 2015 at 11:38:06
Satie
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Posts: 4067
Joined: July 6, 2002
nt

 

P***y whipped?, posted on February 9, 2015 at 11:57:08
Norman M
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Posts: 750
Location: NYC Suburb
Joined: December 9, 2012
Upstairs, (taken with a cheap oriental wide angle lens and iPad).







So one has to 'toe the mark' to stay married? That's both demeaning and humiliating. Over 20 years ago when we built the house I'm still occupying, I was putting together an office basement to keep away from upstairs conversations and distractions. One of the construction crew, who was still around tidying up loose ends and watching, asked what was I doing. Upon replying, he asked me whether or not my wife would allow me upstairs.

 

RE: P***y whipped?, posted on February 9, 2015 at 13:23:56
Satie
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Posts: 4067
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The point is that I get no interference on aesthetics cleanliness and volume. Most significant is that the very high volumes don't make it to the bedroom. So that my insomniac self can listen as loud as I like as late as I like.

Besides which I would readily accept that my wife has pants but no one uses whips.

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 9, 2015 at 14:19:47
russ69
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Posts: 850
Joined: December 13, 2009
I hope I'm not busting your plans too much but the speakers should go on the long wall and be pulled well into the room, about 6 feet minimum and 8 feet would be better. At 14 feet deep that is pretty tight. Although I've made due with less many times. If you are going to use the room with the speakers on the short wall your bass response may or may not be a problem. You can try and see.
You'll be in the near field on a long wall arrangement and it might look a little strange but you can get very satisfying results that way. Using the room the long way will look better but IMHO may not sound as good. Maybe a diagonal set-up would be a good compromise?

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 9, 2015 at 15:10:00
pictureguy
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Posts: 6889
Location: SoCal
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You give me an idea.
Drill holes in the current slab for REBAR. Build Forming Boxes where the speakers and gear need to go and POUR / FINISH. The rebar ties Old to New.
Make the boxes about 5" tall, and than make a raised floor for the REMAINDER of the room using the idea from the OP.
Some kind of insulation UNDER the floor would be nice, or you might end up with a boomy sound when you walk and potential sound interactions.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: P***y whipped?, posted on February 9, 2015 at 15:12:56
pictureguy
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Posts: 6889
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
Looks like the photo was taken with one of those 'thru door' security peep-sites.

terrific looking space, though.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 9, 2015 at 15:14:14
pictureguy
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Sounds reasonable to me. But what do I know?
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 9, 2015 at 16:40:57
You might want to check out the sound proof drywall that has the metal and sealer inside. One sheet is equivalent to around 8 sheets for blocking sound transmission.

Hth

 

Agree, posted on February 9, 2015 at 17:46:22
slapshot
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I would put in the carpet, and you should definitely try the "Limage" setup; Satie got me and another inmate to try in when I had my listening room built--there's no looking back once everything is dialed in correctly.

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 9, 2015 at 17:48:48
slapshot
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This kind of sheetrock is more expensive, and a real pain to work with, but I think it is worth the effort in the long run. There is sheetrock like this that doesn't have metal in it, however. It comes in various thicknesses. Worth considering.

 

RE: P***y whipped?, posted on February 9, 2015 at 17:52:55
Norman M
Audiophile

Posts: 750
Location: NYC Suburb
Joined: December 9, 2012
I indicated how I took that picture, but suppose you missed it. No problem though, there's a kit available from Amazon having a set wide angle lenses for use with various Apple devices including a iPad (which is in fact what I used):
http://www.amazon.com/Angle-Macro-iPhone-connected-together/dp/B005GTR1CA
(typing B005GTR1CA into any Amazon search bar should bring it up.)

It's a silly set of crappy lenses sold for $6.95 (including shipping). At that price, how good can those 'lenses' possibly be? Nonetheless no wide angle lens I ever owned including 35mm camera lenses could fit all of the image I captured from the distance I used. (I know there's software available to stitch together a set of single images into a single panoramic view, and I even have one such tucked away in a drawer somewhere, but that involves a little work.)

 

RE: P***y whipped?, posted on February 9, 2015 at 18:05:47
Norman M
Audiophile

Posts: 750
Location: NYC Suburb
Joined: December 9, 2012
Satie, you brought up 'the' marriage issue. Perhaps the freedom to have one's stereo rig within the house proper should be included in every prenup. :-)

 

RE: P***y whipped?, posted on February 9, 2015 at 18:37:17
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 6889
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
First, when I was into 35mm, I had a 20-35 f2.8 Canon L lens. Maybe 1500$ retail and as good a piece of glass as I EVER owned. When I went to a digital the body had a crop factor of 1.3 which made the lens basically a 26mm.

And yes, both Photoshop AND the Canon 'PhotoStitch' will make panos from individual exposures.

However, my SONY NEX-7 has an INTERNAL stitching routine which is BRUTAL. I have a 14x60 print on the wall which is crystal clear and has amazing detail from corner to corner / edge to edge. The file for that photo is OVER 40 meg. Which once you think about it, ain't all that large a file.

For effects such as the one you got, I'll go with a 'Lens Baby'. Link Provided:
For serious types like me, this is something to own. You can get a variety of 'em, too, so look at the line and decide where you fit in.
Too much is never enough

 

Quietrock, posted on February 9, 2015 at 19:46:14
slapshot
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Here's a link to the special sheetrock

 

I did just that seven years ago, posted on February 9, 2015 at 20:11:25
sd
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Posts: 102
Location: No Cal
Joined: April 19, 2010
I had the benefit/challenge of being able to use our family room upstairs to build out a Magnepan home theater (using 20.1's and the Tri-center arrangement in an overall 7.1 configuration). In listening to what you are planning, I would keep in mind that Maggies often do as well or better with dispersion than absorption and it sounds as though you may get just a bit too much absorption. I would also echo that getting enough distance behind your speakers is really important but also tends to interfere with the design optimization of a room. That's one area where a really big room can help. I would also suggest loading your configuration into REW's room correction software ( http://www.roomeqwizard.com/ ) as it can show you where the reinforcement and dropoff frequencies are likely to be.

Most importantly have fun with the project -- ours has been a huge enjoyment and I'm very glad I had the opportunity to do it (and show that these really big speakers can actually fit very nicely into a well designed home environment).
SD

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 9, 2015 at 22:45:51
I would assume it is a lot cheaper and easier than trying to put up 8 layers of standard sheetrock. It supposedly also seals the nail/screw holes.

The rockwool has great fire insulation properties. For that alone, I don't know why it is not used more in the US.

 

Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 10, 2015 at 05:55:53
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Thank you all for your input on this thread....

First off, What is the Limage setup?


Does anybody else agree with Russ69 that I should run my speakers on the long wall instead of the short wall??? This has me very surprised


No one seems to be in favor of the false floor/Wood floor?. this would be to help enhance lower bass frequencies..... Even my contact at Cardas said concrete floor then heavy pad then carpet and I should be fine.


So if I am understanding this correctly that I may be hindering my acoustic performance by using Roxull on all 5 sides of my room. So maybe roxull in the ceiling and just regular fiberglass in the 4 walls? I assume I would need to fill the walls with something or wouldn't they act of almost an echo chamber if hollow??



and to reconfirm guys, the only thing that will be in this room is my two speakers and a listening chair. All of my equipment will be on the other side of the wall. so my equipment rack will be on carpet/concrete not the false wood floor. and my TT will be mounted to a 2x6 studded load bearing wall.

 

RE: I did just that seven years ago, posted on February 10, 2015 at 06:40:05
TwoTurntables
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Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
sd, I have a question regarding your post.

You say I am heading towards more absorption vs dispersion. Is this due to me wanting to insulate the walls and ceiling? Please advise if you don't mind.

The room is just over 22' deep. Would you agree I have enough room to pull the speakers off the back wall to yield better bass response?? Or do you think my room is still too small??

 

One thing I would add if it wasn't mentioned already., posted on February 10, 2015 at 06:53:55
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 4771
Location: B.C.
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I would pre-wire for HT and install dedicated breakers. I get the 2CH purist thing, I haven't used my PJ for around 3 years now, only music.
But most home buyers will likely use that room for HT, not 2CH, just a thought for resale; small extra investment now, better resale later.
Otherwise sounds like you have a good plan. I installed 3 dedicated breakers for my room, and also insulated all walls and ceiling with Roxul, plus sound caulked (messy black stuff) all outlets, etc.. Carpet on concrete.
Have fun!

 

HK/Limage...Hopefully Sadie will pipe in again..., posted on February 10, 2015 at 07:42:14
Mark Man
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Posts: 1042
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Joined: January 31, 2010
Attached is a link that explains it quite well...

When you have a shoe box room, it works exceptionally well...basically room coupling...

Slapshot, Wazoo, I believe Alan H. and myself have all tried it and do not see any of us going back...

My room is 12'-8" X 22', my speakers are 8'-8" into the room and 13" from side wall with the tweeters in, zero toe-in...sounds crazy, but it WORKS...it is room filling sound, with a soundstage I can walk around in...

As far as your room goes, my job is in the Precast Concrete industry and I have done several schools and performing arts centers...the combination of diffusion and absorption, with the majority emphasis on diffusion...we have done heavy stone textures out of Concrete on the interior walls for the diffusion element...

Yasuhisa Toyota, has done the Disney Performing Arts in LA and Kauffman Center in KC...I was fortunate enough to work on the Kauffman in KC, truly amazing acoustics, mostly achieved by diffusion...

I envy your project, as I am sure many on here do...have fun, keep us posted and enjoy the process...

Thanks
Mark

 

RE: HK/Limage...Hopefully Sadie will pipe in again..., posted on February 10, 2015 at 08:05:37
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Markman can you please post a pic of your sound room so I can confirm what you are saying? That would be very much appreciated if you could. Thanks in advance

Jim

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 10, 2015 at 08:09:05
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 4067
Joined: July 6, 2002
There are a few threads about the Limage setup, much of them from one to two years ago. The setup relies on sidewall reinforcement for bass and a balance of reflections and direct radiation for enhanced imaging and was developed by a Maggie expert in Hong Kong.Mr. Lee who got the nickname and forum handle "Limage".

Generally the setup is on the short wall - and I believe that in all cases but for the largest rooms that is what you would want. The speakers are pulled 1-2 ft short of halfway into the room (40% of its length is a good start) tweeters in and facing dead forward. The speakers go 1 ft or less from the sidewalls and the seat goes near the back of the room (about 1-2 ft from the back wall).

There are detailed discussions of this setup. but the main thing is that when it works then you get a very wide and deep soundstage and significantly deeper and more powerful bass.

If your rooom is essentially empty then you don't need to worry about over absorption and overdamping the room's walls. My walls are just plain fiberglass insulation pressed behind wainscoting. Do use Roxull on the sidewalls but remember that planars have less "punch" since the backwave will cancel out at the sides so there is less concussive impact to the wall than you would have with a box speaker and higher absorption acoustic materials will not have as much benefit. If you intend to use subwoofers, the more efficient damping will come in handy. In any case you want to have SOME insulation in the wall space.

The wood floor is not going to make much of a difference so I just fail to see the audio reasoning for the expense. It may be less effective for coupling the racks and speakers to a large mass.

Since you have all this concrete are you sure you want to go with a low mass approach for mounting the TT?. The 1200 series do better with mass and damping below them. My 1600 mk2 is a suspended version which I modified so as to suspend the plinth (and thus the transformer) from the body (instead of having the body suspended from the plinth) and balance the body on the central point below the spindle over a slate tile and used small hardwood boards to keep the table from wobbling on the central support. This sits on a concrete slab on top of concrete pillars with a layer of automotive damping material in between.

 

here you go..., posted on February 10, 2015 at 08:14:03
Mark Man
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Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Joined: January 31, 2010




This works...

Thanks
Mark


 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 10, 2015 at 08:32:29
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Satie- Thanks for your input. I must say I am very surprised you knew I run a 1200 TT. You have quite a good memory my friend.

Interesting you mentioned the mounting of my TT….. I have pondered using the concrete to my advantage….. although I am not quite following you with your description. What if I poured a square platform off of my concrete floor perhaps 4-4.5' tall to mount my TT on??? Or if I had a steel platform fabricated that bolted to the concrete floor to give it more ridgity?? You have my attn on this I look forward to your reply.

 

RE: here you go..., posted on February 10, 2015 at 08:36:56
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Markman- Thanks for the pic. I wanted to confirm what I thought I was reading. I am definitely game for that setup of the speakers… I thought you all were talking about me putting my speakers on the long wall and frankly that wasn't exactly making me happy considering I started with a clean slate on this project and I decided on this size of room and then I was wondering if I messed up on the size of it……

Now I notice you have subs, I will not be running any subwoofers. Also I am putting all of my equipment outside of the room. I am doing this because it is my understanding that if there are items in the room it can throw off sound waves and alter soundstage. Even putting stuff behind my speakers can cause this, again this is my belief. I may a bit over the top with this approach? Or will I benefit from it in the long run??

Thanks again

Jim

 

more pics, posted on February 10, 2015 at 08:39:37
Mark Man
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Posts: 1042
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Joined: January 31, 2010







Yes, those are Mye Audio stands in a custom color, silver vein...

This set-up is something I would have never tried on my own, thanks to Sadie, I took a leap of faith and it paid great benefits...I will be relocating to in the near future...my current Condo/Townhome search is being based on a living room that this Limage set-up will work...how is that for drinking the Kool-Aid...

Thanks
Mark

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 10, 2015 at 08:48:05
Satie
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Posts: 4067
Joined: July 6, 2002
Hey no magic memory, just needed to see if you are on a low mass (eg Rega) or high mass TT so I looked up your posts on the Vinyl asylum.

The damping is in between the pillars and the concrete slab which is the platform. The slate tile is on top of the concrete slab.

I don;t think you want just a volume of concrete. You can cast pillars in cardboard tubes - use a fiber reinforced concrete with gravel. You can build a concrete rack with this construction method using thick concrete 2X2 ft pavers and your own cast pillars or commercial concrete blocks. I cast my own pillars since I did not like the material in he commercial concrete shapes I could use at the local HD.

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 10, 2015 at 09:16:15
Green Lantern
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June 17, 2003
It doesn't surprise me that they mention Jim Winey having a 20x30 room. That's a perfect match for his 20s along with all the other big Maggies he's created over the years.

I'm envious..we don't have basements in Ca since we don't get twisters (and not to mention that's the last place you want to be in an Earthquake). A shame; I'd kill to have a room that size.


 

the subs are gone...sold them about a month ago..., posted on February 10, 2015 at 09:41:59
Mark Man
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Posts: 1042
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Joined: January 31, 2010






Jim...

I have many posts on here about those damn subs...they worked on about 20% of music played, but for 80% they just did not blend with the 3.7's...
I currently do not miss them...

I have a pair of very expensive 6 meter interconnects to get my rack out from in-between the speakers. I did originally have this set-up this way...

As I transitioned to the Limage set-up, my rack ended up in the dining room of my very small condo...this was not ideal as far as flow in the living space. So I tried the rack in-between my speakers, much to my surprise, I did NOT notice a sonic difference...questioning my own ears, I had a good friend of mine come over and we tried it in both configurations. He confirmed what I was hearing, that there was no significant sonic change...he too could not believe there was NO change...This happens to work in my current Condo...I would not say this will be the results every where I set-up my rig...

As you can see, my front wall sucks...sliding glass door and a fireplace...I currently have 4 silk fichus trees behind each Maggie at different heights...along with 3" X 12" X 4' Sonnex foam panels in the corners and 3" X 2' X 4' behind the rack on the floor...IMHO, these silly fichus trees, make my terrible front wall work, added with the Limage set-up...

The top picture is of the .7 Newport Beach Audio show, notice the greenery?? Historically you look at Maggie show pics, they always have plants of some kind behind and in-between the speakers...diffusion once again...IMHO

Hope this helps...
Thanks
Mark

 

RE: I did just that seven years ago, posted on February 10, 2015 at 11:17:25
sd
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Posts: 102
Location: No Cal
Joined: April 19, 2010
Sorry, just re-read your post more carefully and I think I misunderstood sound isolation and sound proofing for also trying to have a less reflective room. I fully agree with the notion of sound proofing (we did that through double studding and double sheetrock and heavy oak doors). I also did a wooden floor over concrete and added thick wool carpeting.

As to room depth and pulling the 3.7's off the back wall, I think you do have enough space (but that's where I'd be tempted to run the REW software to test where you are likely to create reinforcing reflections). What I tried to do was to put a lot of sound dispersing materials behind the speakers -- open shelving with lots of books that are randomly pulled forward or backward to create additional diffusion.

My unique problem was that my three other walls are nothing but glass, floor to ceiling (but they can be opened so I can also effectively have no side or rear walls at all). That made for a lot more compromises and careful construction plus window coverings...
SD

 

RE: One thing I would add if it wasn't mentioned already., posted on February 10, 2015 at 11:23:38
sd
Audiophile

Posts: 102
Location: No Cal
Joined: April 19, 2010
Grant: I couldn't agree more. Trying to later wire in surround side and rear speakers is not only a huge pain in the neck, but likely to be far more expensive than doing it in the first place. Only problem is that depending on room size, putting thick enough high quality cable all around isn't cheap.

I have set up my system for both, using a two channel DAC and a Bryston SP3 with 2-channel bypass that allows me to have the best of both worlds (great sereo through my 20.1's and an awesome 7.1 surround system with a CCR tri-center based configuration).
SD

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 10, 2015 at 12:05:57
Barry
Audiophile

Posts: 595
Joined: November 24, 1999
Contributor
  Since:
January 18, 2009
Lots of useful comments here. I have a dedicated basement room so have some practical experience with this. Here are some observations for your room. But let's start with what Floyd E. Toole says, 'There is no uniquely good set of room dimensions'. I think your room is fine so far; set-up will be the key.

- Room Modes & Dimensions: The room width of 13.1 is only problematic if you want to use subwoofers (they'd best be placed to the outside of the Maggies unless you're going to use DSP room EQ). The other dimensions are ok - remember, when we're talking about room dimensions, we're talking about bass. You don't mention any openings in the wall, but hopefully they're not near either of the speakers and the room is symmetrical. Your room modes are reasonably spread out so good e.g.:
Long wall: 25, 50, 76Hz
Sides wall: 43, 86 7 130Hz
Floor/Ceiling: 63, 126, 188 Hz
Dipoles excite a strong longitudinal mode between front and rear walls but side-to-side and floor-to-ceiling modes only weakly. You should not have any major problems with room modes if the speakers are placed correctly.

- Speaker Placement: Absolutely DON'T use the long wall! Your room's not wide enough. The speakers need to be a minimum of 68" from the front wall for a minimum delay of 10ms for the back wave following the front. Less than that distance and you'll loose both soundstage depth and articulation. Best place starting point for non-resonant for bass playback could be about one-quarter each of the room dimensions, e.g. one-quarter the room length off the front or back wall.

- Diffraction /Diffusion: Untreated cinderblock basement walls result in significant slap echo; however, with treatment of first reflections and modest treatment of the front wall, you could save yourself needing any drywall. A lot of the choice of absorption vs. diffusion is personal preference. Most people prefer a mix. I like diffusion and minimal absorption on the front wall and absorption on sides and thick panels in corners and the back wall. That doesn't mean you will. Absorption directly behind the listener seat is mandatory.

Seating location: Due to room modes, optimal dipole location may be where the speaker distance to front wall equals the listened distance to back wall. Your seating position is going to be several feet of the back wall given the size of your room. I can't tell where exactly as it'll be what sounds best to you and you may prefer a more near-field or reverberant sound than I do.

- Carpeting: Carpeting is ok but be very careful of padding underlayment. I wouldn't use any as it may overdamp the room. I had to rip mine up and reinstall the carpet. Dipoles have limited floor ceiling bounce. I don't need to treat the ceiling at all.

Buy a laser distance measurement meter for exact set up. Makes a big difference and cost effective. I'd also get REW software (free) or something similar for room measurements.

Great sources for set-up are:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm
http://www.asc-home-theater.com/ht-acoustics-vol3.pdf (more useful for subs)
http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/ownersmanuals/G2.2_Owners_Manual_v2.pdf

Jim Smith Get Better Sound is useful for set-up. If you want to really understand everything about room acoustics, buy the Bible, Floyd E. Toole's "Sound Reproduction". Of course some people would rather listen to music ;)....

Have fun and post some pics when you're done! Barry

 

RE: One thing I would add if it wasn't mentioned already., posted on February 10, 2015 at 13:35:09
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 4771
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
I simply unplug and replug my IT's from my preamp into my surround receiver, easy to access the wiring. For how often I use HT, even if I used it more, a 5 second switch. Yours is easier, no doubt about that!

 

Static Warning, posted on February 10, 2015 at 13:55:59
Desafinado
Audiophile

Posts: 52
Location: Saskatchewan
Joined: March 10, 2013
This is a heads-up for those Maggie owners living in dry winter climates, eg. the Canadian Prairies and U.S. Great Plains. Last weekend I replaced my Tympanis with my MG 12's. After packing and moving the Tympani boxes around I connected the 12's. The music was sounding good but of course I had my tape-measure and was tweaking their position as we Maggie owners love to do. I had the end of the tape close to my metal rack and Wham!!
The preamp ramped the volume to Max with the expected distortion. I finally recovered and hit the power button but it was too late.

The damage was limited to 2 blown fuses. Needless to say any thoughts of fuse bypass have disappeared. After talking to my local dealer I learned that this is quite common in our climate. He has seen it happen with Bryston, and Boulder pre-amps and now we can add my Bel Canto to the list. Apparently a spark of static is all it takes with some of digital volume controls.

While not on the damage scale of his washing machine escapade, Sparky's tape-measure picture reminded me to post this caution. Be careful with that measuring tape Mark!!!

 

RE: One thing I would add if it wasn't mentioned already., posted on February 10, 2015 at 14:00:33
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 3701
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
December 2, 2004
Not a fan of HT but the idea for resale is excellent. An alternative is to put chases in the wall so placement of cable can easily be done later and there is no outlay now for something you don't need.



I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.



 

Hey 2 tables!, posted on February 10, 2015 at 14:07:29
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 3701
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
December 2, 2004
I hate it when someone who knows what they are talking about adds a post as to my unenlightened dribblings :). Listen to Barry!!



I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.



 

pic of setup, posted on February 10, 2015 at 14:29:53
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 1756
Joined: January 9, 2006
Contributor
  Since:
January 12, 2010



Here's the view from my listening chair of the Limage setup.

 

RE: I did just that seven years ago, posted on February 10, 2015 at 16:04:16
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
sd- So you did put in a false floor of wood over your concrete floor?? Others have advised against that. What do you think you gained on doing that?

Thanks!

Jim

 

I really like your listening room..., posted on February 10, 2015 at 16:10:52
Mark Man
Audiophile

Posts: 1042
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Joined: January 31, 2010
Once again SS, I just really like your room...
Thanks
Mark

 

RE: pic of setup, posted on February 10, 2015 at 16:17:49
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Thanks Snapshot. I like your speakers.

I notice you also have plants/trees behind your Maggies as well........

 

RE: Static Warning YES..., posted on February 10, 2015 at 16:40:29
Mark Man
Audiophile

Posts: 1042
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Joined: January 31, 2010



DES

I have major Static issues, when it gets cold and dry my Preamp, a CJ CT-5, will kick itself into the stand-by all by itself...I have to re-select the input and then it is just fine...

When I go to shut it off, I ground myself 3-times...once on the rack, once on the wood plinth and once on the side of the Preamp, then push the power button...

I had a post on Amp/Preamp board on this site all bout static...many CJ owners have had similar issues with their tube preamps...

As I am typing this, it just kicked out, when I pushed the source...the speakers just popped big time...that has only happened a couple of times...but I hate it...

I have never had anything happen when I touch my speakers...BUT I have not touched them with anything Metal...so thank you for that great safety tip...

Nice to hear nothing serious happened to yours...add CJ to your list, too...
thanks again
Mark

 

RE: I really like your listening room..., posted on February 10, 2015 at 16:58:02
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 1756
Joined: January 9, 2006
Contributor
  Since:
January 12, 2010
Thanks, Mark. It's been great, and I'm indebted to Satie for suggesting the Limage setup--would never have believed it could work the way it does.

 

RE: pic of setup, posted on February 10, 2015 at 16:58:51
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 1756
Joined: January 9, 2006
Contributor
  Since:
January 12, 2010
Yes, fake trees...probably help acoustically, but I like the forest look as well.

 

Uncle Sparky from his listening position..., posted on February 10, 2015 at 17:30:24
Mark Man
Audiophile

Posts: 1042
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Joined: January 31, 2010




In case you wondering...here is Uncle "Big Pimp-in" Sparky, from his listening position...this is my FB profile pick...Check out my package...

See the size of those Golden Ears...I can here moss growing...

Thanks
Mark

Ps. Hunter S. Thompson...Fear and Loathing in Coon Rapids, MN...

 

LOL, posted on February 10, 2015 at 17:55:54
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 1756
Joined: January 9, 2006
Contributor
  Since:
January 12, 2010
I clearly need more bling!

 

RE: I did just that seven years ago, posted on February 10, 2015 at 18:54:36
sd
Audiophile

Posts: 102
Location: No Cal
Joined: April 19, 2010



I ended up leaving the concrete, but covered in stone tile around the edge of the room. That tile matches the outside so when the glass is open there is a seamless transition. But then I put a wood floor covered by carpet in the center both to deaden the sound and to provide a more comfortable surface (but using 8 inch laminated studs under the floor). You can sort of see it in this picture (showing the rear and side channel Maggies):

SD

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 10, 2015 at 20:19:53
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 6889
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
I've lived in SoCal just short of 40 years and have seen ONE basement in all that time. Very old house.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 11, 2015 at 04:41:03
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 1154
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
I am slightly surprised to how much importance the dimensions of the room is given here. There are more aspects like the properties of the boundaries, the size of the, if it is sealed etc. I have not seen any serious acoustic designer paying a lot of attention to the golden ratio. Most important of all, the room should not be too small or too large. Where you want to place your speakers will also have to be taken into consideration while choosing the design of the walls. The more irregular is often better. I can see that there is a degree of connection to where we live. The USA seems to have different housing properties to the UK, Germany or Scandinavia. Not only the materials used in the houses but also the indoor decorating and the sizes of our rooms. Large open areas are very difficult acousticly but have been fashion for a while in Europe.

 

Talk to my wife...., posted on February 11, 2015 at 06:31:47
Barry
Audiophile

Posts: 595
Joined: November 24, 1999
Contributor
  Since:
January 18, 2009
She's pretty convinced I don't know much of anything!

I got the "Sound Reproduction" Floyd E. Toole book for Christmas. 535 pages with some really fascinating stuff and lots of pictures. It's also great for dampening unwanted vibrations from audio equipment if you can't get around to reading it.

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 11, 2015 at 08:19:02
rickl
Audiophile

Posts: 528
Location: Twin Cities
Joined: February 7, 2002
I've been in their Dad's room a few times. I didn't take measurements or look very closely how everything was setup but just enjoyed the music.

I can tell you it is upstairs so i don't think it is a concrete floor. It is carpeted. The power amp/pre ICs run under the floor. The amps are in a closet/room while the pre and source are next to the listening chairs.

I believe each wall is not perpendicular to each other (contractors who built it struggled with this). There are some sound treatments behind the listening area and possibly along the side walls up high. I really didn't pay too much attention.

The 20s are pulled out from the wall (6'?) and are slightly toed in to the listening area. There are several chairs for listeners and a row (or two?) of cheap seats behind them. The cheap seats are raised like a home theater.

I don't recall room treatments like what is posted here. No fake ficus trees, no pillows or absorption panels. If anyone has been to the Magnepan plant listening/demo/prototype room will know about room treatments.

I'd just listen to Barry and not pay too much attention to this rambling and vague post.



looking for some jazz and a little libations - joe strummer

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 11, 2015 at 10:24:15
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 6889
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
2 main types of design.
'Clean Sheet' where a designer WILL pay attention to room dimensions.
'Retrofit' where you pretty much are dealt a hand and must play it. At that point you are going to work with what you have.

Some rooms are simply too weird for audio purposes. Cubic or 'Regular' with even multiples will be a disaster. Even though you can use room equalization, you fix the good seat, NOT the room.
Starting with a fundamnentally good room helps a LOT.

Also, I've noticed most persons will deal with 'square feet'. saying something like 'my listening room is about 300 square feet' or some such. What is a much better measure of room size is CUBIC capacity. That 300 square foot room could easily be from 2400 CUBIC feet with an 8 foot ceiling to 3300 cubic feet with an 11 foot ceiling. And the properties vary as a result.

My room in my house which I'm FORCED to use has 8 asymmetric walls. The ceiling is 11 1/2' at the peak and 8 1/2' at the long edge while the opposite site varies as low as 8'. The main door to the house is off this room as is the hall to the 'back' of the house AND the kitchen entry AND the entry to my den. My Den was a hoot. When I did my original subwoofer setup my den acted as a helmholtz resonator and had a huge bass peak which rendered listening in that room nearly impossible. The side opposite my Maggies (short wall setup) has a dense woolen tapestry to dampen what WAS an extremely annoying ECHO. The room in that dimension is about 24'.
Total capacity of the room is around 5000 cubic feet. Large and quite irregular.

And yes, account must be taken of ALL THREE main acoustic properties. Reflection / Absorbtion and Diffusion.

Later I'll post a drawing of a staggered stud arrangement which might jog an idea out of you
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 11, 2015 at 13:21:38
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Roger- I agree with you there is more to a great listening room for Maggies then just the size of the room...That is why I have posted this thread. I am looking to get other ideas from veteran planar guys on here on how else I can tweak this room to get the absolute best results. After all I started with a blank slate in the basement and basically built the basement around this room... Wife wasn't exactly thrilled but hey it all worked out.

So anyway, I am definitely interested in hearing from you on some pointers for this room. I am still uncertain on if I should use roxull wool sound proofing on all 5 sides of this room or just regular insulation.... False wood floor on the concrete basement floor or just stay with the concrete floor and carpet... Should I put my TT on my maple TT shelf mounted to a load bearing wall or mount a concrete stand directly to my concrete floor etc.

Thanks

Jim

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 11, 2015 at 13:23:27
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Rickl, thanks for the explanation of their Dads room. Sounds about right. I am sure it sounds fantastic. Atleast it should, after all he does own Magnepan!

 

Sparky indeed, posted on February 11, 2015 at 20:06:12
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 4067
Joined: July 6, 2002



My dearly departed Beagle Dachshund was also called by that name. Unlike you she never managed to make a flammable situation out of everything.

 

What a SWEATHEART..., posted on February 11, 2015 at 20:40:15
Mark Man
Audiophile

Posts: 1042
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Joined: January 31, 2010




This is Helga...she passed away 5 years ago this week...I still miss her still...

She was much smarter than her owner...When I would visit my family members, they were much more excited to see her than me...

Static in cold DRY Minnesoooota, has always been an issue...especially with CJ's I have owned...If I did not like the CT-5 as much as I do...it would be gone on the static issue...

6N30P tube is definitely not a 6922...the 6N30P has much more of "clinical clean" sound than the more romantic 6922...

Thanks for sharing your Sparky...
Mark

 

RE: Ummm, no..., posted on February 12, 2015 at 14:23:52
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 2964
Joined: April 10, 2002
With a non-dipole speaker that might be good advice, but a dipole can be closer to the side walls with little effect on the imagining (oops, imaging)

This allows the benefit of lots of space behind the listening area, and more space for the air between the speakers and the front wall, too,
Though you should be using a lot of front of the room diffusion as well.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: Perfect Advice here!, posted on February 12, 2015 at 14:25:22
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 2964
Joined: April 10, 2002
concise and right!

Diffusion is your friend - added Dynamics - even frequency response.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: What a SWEATHEART..., posted on February 13, 2015 at 00:36:20
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 4067
Joined: July 6, 2002
Yes and your Helga looks like it.

I was not too happy with the 6N23 either. It isn't as if they can't make good sounding tubes, the reissue tungsol gold lion and mullard label tubes are rather good if not quite to the standards of the best NOS Amperex Mullard and Siemens or Teles. They are all made at the same place.

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 13, 2015 at 18:23:05
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 6889
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
I just read the posts by SD ref'ing DIFFUSION.
Here is a link to a quadratic diffusor you can DIY.

Not the best vid, but than again, there are hundreds of 'em. A 2d diffuser is golden for dealing with maggie back wave issue.

Too much is never enough

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on February 17, 2015 at 07:56:45
grooviefan
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Location: S.Cal
Joined: March 28, 2009
i used green glue on my sound room, also went with double 5/8 drywall, staggered the joints. also did the same to a room for my parrots. very nice result. suspending the wall with an air gap works well too. lots of information on this from several websites Best of luck on your build.

 

Update on my dedicated music room, posted on December 31, 2016 at 11:52:03
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Hello.... I hope everybody has been doing great.... Hopefully all had a Merry Christmas. After 4 years of vinyl/magnepan drought I am finally back in the saddle. I thought I would provide some pics of the journey. Room is roughly 14 x 22... It is so nice to be back to spinning vinyl. Feedback good and bad is welcome.

Thanks for looking

Jim

















 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on December 31, 2016 at 11:57:14
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Fresh Paint










 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on December 31, 2016 at 12:01:33
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
This room needs a set of Magnepans real bad!










 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on December 31, 2016 at 12:13:02
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Equipment goes outside of the room. Still putting everything together.....



Went with GIK Room Treatments. Still getting everything dialed in. Have several panels to install still.....
















 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on December 31, 2016 at 15:16:04
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 4067
Joined: July 6, 2002
Looks like you are nearly done.

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on December 31, 2016 at 16:04:30
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 9373
Joined: February 9, 2010
Contributor
  Since:
February 3, 2012
Looks like a nice room. A couple of questions. Why no diffusors at the first reflection point on the front wall between the speakers? That's where I've found it does most good.

Why the ceiling treatment? line sources like reflective ceilings.

Not sure what treatment you're using on the side walls. You should be able to null out the first side wall reflections. Then you'd only need some diffusion to eliminate slap echo and a bit of net broadband absorption to get the Rt time you want.

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on December 31, 2016 at 17:42:04
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Josh... Thanks for the message. GIK designed the placement of room treatment. He did ask me to install the cloud centered directly above the listening chair. If I had dynamic speakers he would have had me put the cloud in the reflective area on ceiling between speakers and listening position. Also he has me putting the Q7s on the front wall directly behind the speakers starting 30" from floor. He didnt tell me to put anything in the center between the speakers???? Then lastly I have two panels for each side wall catching 1st and 2nd reflection points. I still have to mount those side panels and the front Q7s. I will be doing that tomorrow. So far I am very pleased with what I am hearing. Some slight reflections on the side but the panels should take are of that.

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on December 31, 2016 at 19:32:14
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 4067
Joined: July 6, 2002
How about trying out a Limage positioning before you mount the side panels so you can check out how it works? The panels might get in the way (or more likely do nothing since they would probably be mounted at the nulls for the Limage setup).

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on January 1, 2017 at 05:33:11
watts
Audiophile

Posts: 313
Location: B.C.
Joined: June 30, 2004
Where are all the plug-ins? Electrical code here in BC requires that duplex receptacles must be installed so that no spot is more than 1.8m (6 feet) from an outlet.

 

Any colour you want, as long as it is black, posted on January 1, 2017 at 05:40:32
watts
Audiophile

Posts: 313
Location: B.C.
Joined: June 30, 2004
Nice; I have the same colour 3.6's. I think some green behind the speakers would look nice.

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on January 1, 2017 at 05:54:35
Posts: 544
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
Nice set up.Are the panels on the side walls forward of the speakers bass traps?I see that you have larger bass traps in the corners of the front wall.

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on January 1, 2017 at 07:42:33
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Watts.... I don't plan to ever put any equipment in the room so I just put two plugs in tota in the rooml to plug in an RTA or vacuum cleaner etc. One left and one right of the listening chair...... The county I live in doesn't have any inspections after you build or code you must follow.

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on January 1, 2017 at 07:45:49
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Hi Satie... I thought about trying the Limeage setup. First off my speaker cables aren't long enough to bring the the speakers out and towards middle of the room. I am very pleased with how it is sounding so far. Much better then my last listening room which was an over the garage room with low ceilings, cabinetry in weird places etc....

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on January 1, 2017 at 07:49:14
TwoTurntables
Audiophile

Posts: 174
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: January 28, 2008
Thank you Rosendds. I am using the 244 acoustics panels from GIK on the side walls. They are bass traps, but mainly to catch side wall reflections. I will be hanging them later today. Looking forward to getting al the treatment up.....

 

RE: Building a room for my Magnepans, posted on January 1, 2017 at 14:38:14
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 9373
Joined: February 9, 2010
Contributor
  Since:
February 3, 2012
Well, who am I to argue with GIK? :-) I've always put and usually seen QRD diffusers at the first reflection point, though -- that's the point at which you see the mid and tweeter from your listening seat in a mirror that's taped on the front wall. Here are mine -- you can see the reflection of the RH speaker in the window (they're sitting on the floor because I haven't figure out how I'm going to mount them yet):





But I think the best course really is to find the best speaker placement first, then you can experiment a bit and put the diffusers where they sound best.

 

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