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Tympani 1d ad

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Posted on July 31, 2012 at 13:24:12
Zimmerman


 
Is this ad for Tympani 1ds on Audiogon for real?

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/magnepan-magneplanar-tympani-1d-new-in-box-shipped-dire

It claims a kind of "partnership" between the seller and Magnepan itself. You get to choose the color.

Yet the text says that he is selling them for his "girlfriend."

Hmmmmm.

 

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RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on July 31, 2012 at 15:28:51
tyu
Audiophile

Posts: 963
Joined: April 19, 2011
 Call Magnepan....looks fair... if anyones needs a pr 1D...one call an anyone well know the real deal.....goodluck

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 1, 2012 at 15:42:36
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 OK, read the ad (whew!). My sense is that it's legit. He's not talking about a partnership with Magnepan, what he's done is sent a pair of 1-D's to Magnepan to be refurbished and rebuilt.

They rebuild the drivers, from scratch if necessary, and repaint, put on new socks, otherwise restore them. Amazing work. I'm guessing that they had some kind of problem -- delam, etc. -- and so he decided to have them rebuilt rather than selling them as junkers. And if you're doing that, it makes sense to ship them directly from the factory to the purchaser (and to let the buyer choose the sock color!).

I can confirm that they've discussed re-releasing old Tympanis, or new ones, so that rings true. Also that they'd be expensive, owing to the fact that they're essentially three pairs of Maggies.

Of course, it would still be a good idea to check out the seller, and check with Magnepan.

One point -- he seems to be mistaken about the efficiency of the 1-D's. According to the table, it's 93dB/10W/6' @500Hz, while the IVa (which is apparently more efficient than the IV) is listed as 87dB/1W/m @500Hz. The table graciously translates the 1-D's efficiency to 85.6dB/1W/1m, which is a bit lower than the the IVa's.

So could be legit, whether it's a good deal or not depends on the final selling price, and, of course, whether you want a pair of 1-D's. That really would depend on need, room, and budget. But as he points out, these are Maggies that really do rock, and do home theater, as well, with no need to fear for the ribbon. The Tympanis just have a big speaker impact that the single panels don't, though I gather from what Wendell says that adding DWM's in a large room can provide a Tympani-like experience.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 1, 2012 at 21:05:47
Zimmerman


 
Thanks, Josh358--

That was a very useful-- and plausible-- analysis of the ad.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 2, 2012 at 05:49:02
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I sent a note to the poster about the sensitivity and he responded with a friendly message, and amended his description on Audiogon. Thought I'd mention that since it gives me a positive sense of the seller.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 2, 2012 at 11:25:30
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 Just out of curiosity, I'd like to see what the reserve will end up at.

Judging from that write-up, and as a completely new rebuild, along with the comparison to a non-existent $40K 'new Maggie' it would appear those panels are headed towards the high end of the atmosphere.









 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 2, 2012 at 12:08:23
Zimmerman


 
Right.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 2, 2012 at 14:23:06
Norman M
 I have no doubt about the adv's legitimacy. However the description "new in the box" could possibly serve as a putoff. One could conclude from the title itself that these speakers have been sitting in their box for 30+ years, and no more. If I were in the seller's position, I would title them as being completely refurbished by its manufacturer, plus not presently being "socked". Currently the highest bid at Audiogon might cover the cost of his having shipped them to Magnepan, and not too much more. (At one time I was considering refurbishing my IV-As and the prices quoted to me were in that neighborhood, (using Magnepan's preferred shippers.) However I do find it odd that Magnepan is willing to warehouse them until an acceptable bid is placed. At this time Audiogon indicates the adv. has 10 more days until it expires. What happens at the end of the auction if no acceptable bid has been placed? Would Magnepan be willing to hold onto them for an additional period of time? Or would the seller have to inform Magnepan of how to cover them and then take delivery to himself? OTOH perhaps the seller is one of Magnepan's dealers and has some special clout. I seriously doubt that Magnepan would be willing to have this type of arrangement with me!

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 2, 2012 at 15:05:26
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Yeah, agree that it should say "refurbished by Magnepan with completely new drivers" or something like that. Though from what I've seen of their repair operation, they do more than basic repairs -- they remanufacture them to the point at which they look (and presumably sound) new.

You'd have to ask Sheila what arrangements are available, I'm sure they'd be glad to ship to a different location (I may ask for this myself when I send my IVa's in, depending on when I move -- send them directly to my new address). And I imagine this guy isn't the first to make this arrangement, e.g., send them to Magnepan to be fixed then advertise them on Audiogon. Why pay for extra shipping, or, worse, take the risk that the company will fork lift them the way they did mine?

I doubt they're willing to act as a warehouse, though . . . if they don't sell, I imagine the seller will have to choose a sock color and take them back himself. But it's early in the auction for the bid price to mean anything, if it's like the auctions on Ebays the price will zoom up at the last moment.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 2, 2012 at 15:17:26
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 The selling price of 1-D's has been increasing steadily. Audiogon has the last sale as $970, the high as $1410, and the average as $1070. By way of comparison, I bought my pair, slightly used, in the early 80's for $700 and they went new for $1550.

I'd expect a refurbished pair to sell at the high end of the spectrum. Whether they're worth more than an early III, I'm not so sure -- I think that depends on application. The III's of course have the magnificent ribbon tweeter, but the 1-D's are *bigger* speakers in the sense that they'll really rock out in a way that the single panels won't and they're virtually indestructible. So it's basically bass, level, driver blending, and overall tonal balance vs. better highs and imaging.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 3, 2012 at 10:20:05
Norman M
 Eons ago, being the original owner of a Tympani 1C, I had Magnepan refurbish these and they came back looking and sounding *better* than new. A UV resistant adhesive was used (the adhesive in my 1C went bad) and anything having even the smallest scratch on it, like the plate as well as screws for attaching the speaker wires was replaced. Them seemed better than new in every detail and I couldn't have been happier, even having sent their service department a letter expressing my sincere gratitude (for which they thanked me in a return letter).

I never saw any reason why Magnepan wouldn't or shouldn't ship to a different location (so please don't put any words in my mouth). However at the present time the highest bid is still only $578 and the buyer would have to tack onto that the cost of shipping. I feel it's unfair to ask Magnepan to hold onto these refurbished, and as of yet unsocked speakers, even if it be only for the length of the auction, whether or not they sell, so it would never have crossed my mind to ask them do that. Certainly they don't appear so desperate to do business to have to walk the extra mile, "good will" or not.

I don't know if an Audigon seller can indicate their reserve price by saying "bids start at $XXXX", as is the case for many eBay auctions. It would seem better than this beating around the bush, and if possible it still wouldn't prevent their selling price shooting up during the concluding minutes of the auction, and by *serious* bidders at that.

If Magnepan went back to making Tympanis, perhaps something similar to a IV-A, but with 20.7 fashioned drivers, and priced at $40K, might be a 'hit', but I can't, and could never have been able to afford that.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 3, 2012 at 10:36:12
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Why would a pair of Tympanis cost $40k? The drivers are just like any other Magnepan, just an additional bass driver and a push-pull tweeter than is far from the ribbon tweeter of later models. It seems that a 20.7 have about the same numbers of magnets as the Tympanis. Why should it be more expensive to build Tympanis than 20.7?

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:00:22
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Sorry, it wasn't my intention to put words in anybody's mouth. If I say something that you didn't, it's either because I misunderstood you, or I'm just expressing my view dialectically, without meaning to imply that the OP holds it.

I think the purpose of a hidden reserve is to generate bidding action and excitement. Whether it actually serves that purpose in an online auction spread over many days, I don't know. But then I don't understand why people do bid early in the auction, since the price is established in the last minutes. I guess they figure it's a no-lose proposition -- if they offer a lowball price and for some strange reason nobody else bids, they have themselves a great deal, if not, it's just a click.

New Tympanis would definitely be pricier than the single-panel jobbies. I know that this is a concern for Wendell, and that in fact the increasing cost of making them is why they stopped (this per an old interview with Jim Winey). However, with expensive speakers selling well now, they could sell them -- I'm guessing for less than $40,000, though that's not out of line with what many high end speakers go for these days, indeed it would be a bargain compared to Magicos, YG's, etc.

Wendell doesn't want to lose their reputation as a value manufacturer, one which is central to the company's mission and identity. My own belief is that what's important here is that the speaker have high value relative to what it is, to the sound delivered. After all, we can already buy Maggies that cost only $600, and Maggies that cost more than $10,000. Every one is referred to as an amazing bargain in the reviews, and with good reason. So while a new Tympani would likely be out of my reach as well, it wouldn't harm Magnepan's reputation for affordability with me, as long as it had the high bang-for-the-buck of their other speakers.

I'd also remind Wendell that if they make the damn thing everybody and his brother will stop nagging him about it. :-)

But we'll have to see what they decide, there are other issues as well. The official word as of some months back was that no decision had been made, but they have been discussing the possibility. The guys there like Tympanis just as much as we do!

Meanwhile, Wendell is finding that he can get Tympani-like performance in large rooms with a modular approach using DWM's, and they've started sending them to dealers to demonstrate with the .7's. So that could be another route.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 3, 2012 at 12:06:40
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Well, it's definitely more expensive. I asked Jim Winey about that and he said it's a lot like making three pairs of Maggies. Not the materials so much I think as the labor, that's three panels to be routed and installed, four drivers to be built and installed. Plus bigger boxes, higher shipping, three socks, extra wood trim pieces, etc. So while the $40,000 figure sounds too high to me too, it would have to cost more than a 20.7. Escalating cost was the original reason they stopped making them (this also according to Jim Winey, in a magazine interview years ago).

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 3, 2012 at 17:12:21
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Still sounds strange to me. A three-panel Tympani I-D is not more complicated than building three MG 1.7. Sure, it will be about three times more expensive but far from $40000! I think the MG-models are more complicate to build than those single driver Tympani-panels. I think, the main reason Magnepan stopped producing Tympanis may be the size of the speakers, they were BIG. Not everyone would accept such large speakers!

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 3, 2012 at 18:04:08
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Well, yeah, the $40,000 is too high. It would be more expensive than the 20.7, though.

I asked Jim Winey about it. I'd read an interview years ago in which he said that the Tympanis had gotten too expensive to make and when I asked him, he confirmed that.

If you're talking a new Tympani, say you're talking the same technology as in the 20.7, plus one extra driver. So you start with the cost of a 20.7, then add the driver, the extra frames, shipping, bigger boxes, driver testing, etc. In addition, as you said, they're big and either need a dedicated room, or something with which to blackmail your wife. The smaller the model the more they sell so as you say they wouldn't sell as many Tympanis as 20.7's. That means that R&D has to be amortized over fewer units and it would presumably be more expensive on that count too. Then they'd need some new tooling, CNC programming, etc. -- not sure what if anything they still have that they could reuse. All of that means it would have to be more expensive than the 20.7's, though not I think $40,000.

The market has changed -- expensive speakers are selling well, many much pricier -- so I don't think they'd have any trouble selling them today. Wendell's concern with the price has more to do with the company's reputation for value. He takes that very seriously and its integral to their philosophy, going back to Jim Winey who told me that he doesn't want to be a company that sells only a few ultra-high-priced speakers like most other high end speaker companies.

There are also some other arguments against, e.g., would dealers make room to show them. At this point, a lot of people can't even hear the 20.7's. They also have limited resources and other new products they're working on, so they have to decide if it's the best use of their resources. Still, as others have reported, it's been under consideration.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 4, 2012 at 05:27:33
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 An 20.7 with an extra bass driver should not double the price of the 20.7. They can just build a 20.7 without the mid and tweeter section. Tooling and CNC-programming should not be necessary as I see it. I do not believe they would make a large number of speakers in this price categori... How many Tympanis were made? How many 20.1?

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 4, 2012 at 05:53:45
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I assume a Tympani would be three panels, but of course that isn't certain, they could do something like you suggest, e.g., a double 20.7.

In any case, even a three panel Tympani probably wouldn't cost twice as much as a 20.7. But it would be more expensive.

According to Wendell, the smaller the speaker, the more they sell. I doubt very much they'd do this without tooling, doing everything by hand would drive the price into the stratosphere. They do have equipment in the repair department that can be used to repair models that are no longer in production but it isn't part of the regular factory workflow, where speakers are made in batches of a model at specialized stations.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 4, 2012 at 10:04:24
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Well Josh, you have been to the factory. Pictures of it show some jigs, a streching table for the Mylar, how they sort the plastic bonded magnets, the CNC milling machine etc. The production seems to rely on charing as many parts as possible. The magnets, the perforated sheet metal, the particle board etc. There seems to be a lot of manual work involved, like glueing the wire to the Mylar. The push-pull drivers need special jigs, the hinged ones. Most of these manufactoring steps can be replicated at home. What is difficult, it is to get the know-how that come by trial and error. Just look at the 3.7 and how it is different from the earlier designs. The tension/clamping of the diaphragm must have taken some time to optimise!

Tympanis before the IV, had some panels requireing more work than later ones. Sure, nowdays, they buy the perforated sheet metal customised. The first years they used standard sheet metal. The drivers of I-C, IIIA, I-D and IIIB are very similar. 12x60" (bass) or 8x48" (tweeters) sheet metal, spacers of 1/8" particle board, magnets has the same dimensions etc.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 4, 2012 at 10:51:39
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Yep. Their assembly line is optimized for small scale batch manufacturing, e.g., they can swap out a jig at a station and work on 3.7's while the other station is working on 1.7's. It's a very professional factory operation and over the years they've learned many tricks to improve efficiency and economy. The skill of the factory staff is impressive as well -- they work with impressive speed and have a great knowledge of what to check, pitfalls, etc.

There's lots of black art in the design and manufacturing. Every time I talk to Wendell I learn something else that I didn't know about why they do what they do.

I can't imagine where they find the time to do the R&D. But I know they've done an immense amount of it over the years, because whenever I suggest an idea or one of us mentions something here Wendell says "Oh, yeah, Jim Winey tried that a few decades ago." They're inveterate tinkerers and have tried lots of stuff that we don't always see, e.g., Wendell said a little while back that Jim has been experimenting with Maggie headphones for years.

They definitely standardize as much as possible. Mark Winey said that one of the requirements for the .7's was that they have the same form factor as the earlier models. That way, they could use many of the same jigs, as well as boxes, magnets, MDF, perforated metal, etc.

 

my guess waf = wtf factor (cubed), posted on August 4, 2012 at 23:03:30
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 a level 3 difficulty convincing the wife to shoe horn those in the livingroom.

If you thought slippin' in a pair of 1.6's past her was difficult, try six 20.7s!

No doubt they'd sound fantastic I'm thinking...











 

RE: my guess waf = wtf factor (cubed), posted on August 5, 2012 at 11:21:45
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Yeah, they appeal mostly to people with dedicated sound rooms. Naturally, that limits the market.

Now, if they designed living rooms right, they'd have acoustically transparent projection screen fabric along one wall, with a few feet behind it. So you could put your speakers behind the screen, and no one would be the wiser, and also use it with a projector for home theater -- all without your wife ever catching on. (Of course, she'd want to know why she couldn't put a sofa against it, and hang pictures in the middle . . . )

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 6, 2012 at 09:55:05
Norman M
 Well, the current bid is $1100, and although the reserve has not been met, 6 days remain. It could be that I'm more interested in this auction's outcome than is the seller himself. (No, I'm not the seller, nor am I in any way associated with him.) Maybe we should take up bets on whether or not it well sell at Audiogom? :-))

If Magnepan's willing to assist in this arrangement (that is to say that they are even aware of it), I can't help but wonder if after this auction is over, and should this appear a way to make a buck, what would Magnepan do if a several dozen other Tympani owners were to attempt to join the fray?

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 7, 2012 at 08:56:01
EldRick


 
I put in the $1100 bid to probe his reserve price. The early bids mean nothing until they exceed the seller's reserve.

I found the same speakers offered elsewhere for $4K, so the reserve is probably pretty high.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 7, 2012 at 13:13:02
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 $4k is far too much for Tympani I-D. Even for a fresh pair of IVa. I think the cost of refurbishment is somewhere between 1300-1500.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 7, 2012 at 13:50:57
EldRick


 
Funny you should mention it - there's a pair of "single-owner" unrefreshed IV-A's on eBay - asking $3950.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 7, 2012 at 14:18:52
EldRick


 
There's a non-working pair of 1-D available locally - I might snag them and send them back east for upgrade.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 7, 2012 at 18:04:14
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Which is insane -- they go for about $1800. (Actually, not insane given the quality of the speaker, just way above their usual selling price.)

Agree with Roger, that 1-D selling price is too high as well. By way of contrast the price on Audiogon is for a newly refurbished pair so you can expect them to be worth about the usual + the cost of the refurb and shipping, although I've noticed that refurbished units don't seem to bring quite that much of a premium -- which makes them a better deal than buying unrefurbished ones and having Magnepan do the work yourself.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 7, 2012 at 18:14:58
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I doubt it's much of a problem for them, just a matter of shipping them out to a different address from the one from which they came. Plus they have plenty of room to store them briefly, here's their repair department. You can see some of the speakers that were working on in the background:



Of course, I have no idea of what their policy is on this kind of favor.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 7, 2012 at 19:24:00
EldRick
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 7, 2012
 All of which probably puts the selling price of the pair on AG at maybe $2300 on a good day, and the IVa on eBay for less (being original).

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 8, 2012 at 08:48:38
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Yeah, I've never watched Audiogon auctions, but on Ebay auction prices seem to double on the last day. 1-D's go for $800-$1000 now (more than I paid for my slightly-used pair in the early 80's!), so if you add the cost of the refurb and shipping to that, it probably gets pretty close to that anticipated selling price.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 8, 2012 at 08:53:08
EldRick
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 7, 2012
 I'm going to look at a pair locally - one side not working. Asking $400-500. Add in $500 for 2-way shipping and maybe $1400 for the rebuild, and $2300 total would do it, so the two guys asking $4K are a bit high.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 8, 2012 at 09:08:49
EldRick
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 7, 2012
 Interesting - I just talked to the Repairs lady at Magnepan about costs for a 1D rebuild.

She tells me that the basic refresh, re-glue, re-cover, etc. runs $400-600, After that, if you need new membranes, they are $200 each, xo electronics perhaps another $200-300. If cracked frame - another couple. I'd also pop for replacing the horrible original screw-connector panel with the newer version, ala IVa.

So I'm pleasantly surprised. Apparently the $1300-1400 figure I've seen bandied about would probably include 2-way shipping, so the total for a renewed speaker might well run under $2K.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 8, 2012 at 09:35:55
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 That's a better price than you'll usually see online, though it may be because one side is completely dead. This is going by the Audiogon blue book and they say nothing about condition. But it's clear from the graph that 1-D prices have been steadily rising in the last couple of years.

Have you asked Magnepan how much the two-way shipping and rebuild would cost? I'm guessing you're right that it would be less expensive but it's worth calling Sheila to find out for sure.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 8, 2012 at 09:39:04
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Heh, answered my question a second after I'd posted it!

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 9, 2012 at 22:55:12
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 The seller has added:

"As of this writing 3 days to go....the bid is $1,100.00. The auction reserve on the speakers is $3200. of which we would have the winner pay Magnepan the remainder due which is about $1850-2,000, and the rest to us. So if the speakers sell for the reserve minimum of $3,200... you would write a check to us for around $1200 and the rest you would pay Magnepan directly- we would write a bill of sale giving you ownership of the speakers and have them shipped wherever you wish."


 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 10, 2012 at 06:17:40
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Hmmm . . . that sounded a bit high to me initially since I checked the Blue Book price of 1-D's for another thread a few days ago, but then it occurred to me that he's probably including his shipping cost to Magnepan in the $1200. So I guess it's about right.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 13, 2012 at 08:34:14
Norman M
 http://app.audiogon.com/listings/magnepan-magneplanar-tympani-1d-new-in-box-shipped-dire

I can't help but wonder how that will play out. Considering the amount of the reserve, it's a bit wierd the highest bid was only $350 short. Perhaps the purpose was to try to negotiate a deal privately, if permitted(?) at Audiogon.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 13, 2012 at 09:15:00
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I think that does happen sometimes with auctions, not even sure what Audiogon's policy is on that. But I wouldn't make any accusations.

 

RE: Tympani 1d ad, posted on August 14, 2012 at 07:58:12
Norman M
 None implied.

 

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