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Lovin my MMG's, except.....

76.237.239.86
Posted on February 15, 2012 at 21:20:01
tinnitusintx


 
.....drums just aren't as real sounding as all the other instruments. Being a drummer I'm very sensitive to this. Piano, horns, hand percussion, vocals, not too heavily distorted guitar, bass, etc. all have better realism than I've ever experienced from any other loudspeaker before. But when it comes to drums, well, there are some things missing.

One, they just don't sound balanced in the mix. All the other instruments can really come forward with authoritative presentation when the performance dictates. The drums more often than not just seem a little throttled back compared to what I'm used to hearing from my speakers that do drums really well (ADS 1290/2, EV Interface C) and compared to the recording levels of the other instruments in the song.

Two, the tone of the drum is there but the "snap" or attack of the stick
striking the head isn't. That backbeat "pop" or "crack" from a rimshot just doesn't hit very hard. I think this is contributing to the problem I'm having with the imbalance between the drums and the rest of the instruments in the recording. I'm used to feeling some sonic energy from the drums (and do with the ADS's and EV's)
but with the MMG's it's just sound.

Now I will say this. When I first got them and hadn't yet done any tweaks they were more balanced but that's only because the other instruments weren't as sonically present as they are now. It's like all my tweaks up to this point have addressed every instrument.....except the drums. Gotta get this one figured out or I'll have big problems with the MMG's.

My tweaks are as follows...
- Framed and braced and lifted off the ground one foot with about 15 degrees tilt back from vertical. Frame assembly is spiked on concrete.
- Fuses and attenuators bypassed

Room is 14 wide, 20 deep, with 8 foot ceilings and speakers 4.5 feet from front wall and 2.5 feet from side walls with about seven feet between them and I sit about eight feet away. Room has several acoustic treatments including diffusion panels 30 inches behind speakers, corner broadband absorbers, first reflection absorbers on ceiling and side walls, and absorption behind listening position and against front wall behind diffusion panels.

Gear is a Yamaha CDC-835 cdp feeding a Grant Fidelity Tube DAC-09, Emotive USP-1 pre and XPA-1 amp with Audioquest cables and interconnects.

Haven't done any mods to the xovers but I guess that's where I need to go next. I've seen Gunn's, but doesn't his require the panel to be reversed? I listened to my MMGs once with the backside facing forward and didn't like the loss of midbass so I'm not sure I'm interested in following the Gunn recipe. Any other x-over mod recipes out there that tend to get very good testimonials from those who have done them? Or, even better, that might help me out with my weak drums problem? I'd like to be able to biamp or biwire and the one MMG xover mod in the "tweaks" section looks appealing. Anyone ever heard what that particual mod can do?

Thanks,
Michael

 

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RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 19, 2012 at 04:09:29
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 HI Tin,

Some good stuff in this thread.

A couple things jump to mind outside the room treatment issues. The room I think is probably the main culprit but good luck trouble shooting that online. You might want to invest in Jim Smiths book if you havent already (getbettersound.com)

--in case you missed it does your diy sub have a phase option? Have you played with that? Or tried reversing the cable connections on BOTH mags? There seems to be some mid bass thing going on and you mention IIRC that the sub integration could be better. Often a missmatch of phase between the subs and mains could be the culprit. If you diyed a sub you probably know that but just in case I thought I would mention it.

Just for kicks, can you try (if you havent) turning your subs so they aim to the left and right and not directly at you?

--are the mags right on top of the subs like it looks in the picts? If so, try something between the sub and the mags to decouple the mags from the subs. This could cause a smearing that might be what you are hearing. I would get 12 or or more of these:

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/fasteners/vibration-isolators/pads/neoprene-cord-pad-2-x-2-x-1

set you back around 30$ but even if they dont help here (which I think is unlikely) you can find a bunch of audio uses for them

--what happens to the bass if you listen about 3-4 ft away from the speaker rather than the 8ft you do now?

--if you do end up modding these, do the razor mod since this will help with that "snap" you are missing.

And while you are at it, try the choke tweak on the bass panel too. That can help alot with the bass if you have local RF sources and who doesnt these days. For instance, cable boxes, microwave ovens, cordless phones, garage door openers, computers, cell phone charges, all can be sources of rf.

*** Fringe suggestions that will question your resolve or my credibility or both :) Try with caution.

Try wiring both your sub and mags with magwire from radioshack. Take 2 of the green wires and twist with a drill adding some teflon tape before you twist. This will give you wire that has teflon around it if you are careful, and about a 23g run. use this twist of 2 wires for ONE conductor. So one run for the + and one run for the -. Cheap and easy. This will change the bass sound and you wont like it at first. What we are looking for here in this EXPERIMENT is to get the sub and speakers balanced. If you need some rationale it goes like this : The mags have hundreds of feet of 28g wire in them. Thin wire smears the bass less than the thick wire that we often use to connect or are builtin to most speakers. Hooking up both the sub and mags with thin wire will get a better balance (hey the thin wire also sounds awesome on the mids and highs too and is highly recommended)

If you do this, give it a week to register. The sound will be super clean and that can take some time to get used to, and just using the magwire like speaker wire is pretty impractical. This is just a test and if it helps then we can work on a formal recipe for the long term.

Oh, and in case you are wondering, I rewired my velodyne sub with 24g wire like I am proposing (actually it was 2 twists of 30g (4 wires for each + and each -) with no issues. Though I am not 100% on your setup or listening level so start with low volumes, and monitor the heat of the wire. I never have had ANY issues and many inmates with vastly different mags and systems havent had any issues and I am just being cautious, overly cautious, since as a drummer your listening levels are probably much higher than mine.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

transducer strengths and weaknesses, posted on February 19, 2012 at 00:55:35
Adriel
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: San Diego
Joined: October 13, 2001
 Certain sounds the magnepan does very well. Such as during movie scenes when there is a knock on a door. Makes me check the door sometimes. Dog or cat meows. Vehicle exhaust pulses. Gunfire.

However, one thing I notice the magnepan does poorly is explosive effects, such as the rustling sound of a slow-motion fireball.

Cone speakers are "safe", they tend to present sounds as intended. Anything off the beaten path runs the risk of certain sounds not sounding quite right, although having other sounds improved.

The AA does some things well, but troublehsooting it does not do well. Maybe 1 post out of 10 is helpful, the rest of the advice has you on a wild goose chase.

Sometimes you just have to blame the speaker.

Sometimes it does not make sense to build an expensive supporting environment around an inexpensive speaker, but rather find a speaker that suits the current environment.

 

cant wait to hear my Gunned ones..., posted on February 18, 2012 at 19:09:30
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 as the hunt for a house continues... I was approved about a month or two ago for a home loan (long story/short version: divorce, short-sale, yadda-yadda); anyway- my next house will be at 'least' 2,000 sqft (or 1500 with the potential for an add-on); solely for the purpose of a good sound room..we've looked at 3,000 sq footers for the past month, and my fiance' and agent viewed a 4,000 sq footer today with a view of the mountains (good for me; a buyers market-very inexpensive-relatively speaking for So Ca); but it requires way too much work inside. What a shame though..
Criteria for my next house:
1. location
2. price
3. will it big enough for Maggies

Anyway I can't wait to get back into the swing of things with the good ole "Maggie Sound"!

the "too good to be true" house viewed yesterday









 

RE: cant wait to hear my Gunned ones..., posted on February 18, 2012 at 21:12:49
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Here's crossing fingers that you land the right deal for the best place! I will include it in my prayers but my account upstairs is kind of overdrawn :-))

 

RE: cant wait to hear my Gunned ones..., posted on February 19, 2012 at 19:01:57
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 thank you for those kind words sir;)

One thing I have noticed is a fair amount of San Diegans on the MUG site; eventually I'd like to host a Maggie party sometime down the road!









 

RE: cant wait to hear my Gunned ones..., posted on February 19, 2012 at 19:17:31
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I'll have my social secretary call your scheduling agent to arrange a time.


Too much is never enough

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 20:38:50
Peter Gunn
Manufacturer

Posts: 3980
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: April 16, 2001
 It's not my "recipe", it belongs to Magnepan because every speaker they made for the first 30 years had the mylar in the rear and it was a practice they defended in print religiously because in their own words "they sound best that way."

Why they changed in the 90's they never said, however my guess is because people no longer understand you can't drop maggies in any room and expect perfection, and the rear wave is the one most easily effected by bad rooms, so "todays" people are likely to hear an anomoly and blame the speaker (like you did) when the truth is the room is at fault.

You are never going to find happiness using this shotgun approach to modding, especially when you draw incorrect conclusions from the results you are given. I also don't understand why people think raising speakers improves bass, as the further any speaker gets from the floor bass almost always suffers most.

There is only 1 certainty here - your room has issues. This is a certainty because your speakers told you. Perhaps it would be prudent to slow your charge to the finish line and correct problems one at a time, completely, before moving on to the next alteration.

That being the case put them back the wrong (right) way and keep adjusting the room until the mids re-appear. It's not as if the speaker stopped making them. The difference is that way they are trying to provide them in a more ambient way thru room interaction rather than blowing them right at you, and something in the room is absorbing, deflecting or killing that missing wave spectrum. Regardless of what you eventually do, does it not make sense to isolate this issue and correct it?


It's all about the music...

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 08:17:27
tinnitusintx
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: North Texas
Joined: December 8, 2011
 First, thanks a million to all of you for taking the time from your schedules to help me work through this.

And to you Mr. Gunn....your reputation certaily precedes you so thank you very much for contributing your analysis and offering a bit of sage advice.

However, with all due respect Mr. Gunn I'm going to have to address your "shotgun approach" comment. Not that you're wrong for saying that... looking back over my posts I can see the manner in which I've described my methods certainly does make them come across as "shotgun". But the fact of the matter is my tweaks have been fairly systematic and empirical. At any rate, I've tried to perform my mods/tweaks one at a time when possible (some mods by nature address more than one issue simultaneously) and live with the result for a full listening session or two with my reference tracks before I determine which issue should be addressed next.

I agree, my room is one issue and still needs some fine tuning to optimize the dipolar radiation pattern and I'm getting there slowly but surely as it's a work in progress (and yes, I suppose I'm a little guilty of "racing to the finish" but I'm not one to "let the grass grow under my ass"...if you know what I mean :^]).

So, with that, please allow me to offer a chronologically accurate, step by step description of my methodology. My apologies for not starting out this way.


My room was intitially very well treated for monpolar cone/box speakers and when I first set the MMGs up I did'nt like them at all. First thing I did was remove the absorption panels from the front wall and this helped imaging and soundstage but fidelity was lacking. Next I located what I felt was optimum placement for my room and performance on all levels improved once again. I then built the diffusion panels and set them up as you see them behind the speakers and they made a considerable improvement in fidelity...almost profound, actually. After that I replaced the factory stands with the 90 degree bracket mod to get them upright. This helped with clarity as well but the overall presentation really took a turn for the better (bigger...in a good way) when I got them up off the ground and on top of the subs. Now, I won't argue with anyone that 16" off the ground and on top of subs is not optimum, but the improvement over ground level was undeniable and a second set of critical ears agreed enthusiastically. Next I bypassed the fuses and attenuators and realized yet another improvement in fidelity. At this point the improvement in SQ was so vastly improved over my first impression with them in my room that I decided to leave the room and speakers alone switched my focus to trying out the different amps and preamps I had sitting around (and even with that there is still no verdict but I've settled on the Emotiva USP-1 and Emotiva XPA-2 for several weeks now in attempt to stabilized that variable).

After living with that arrangment for the past several weeks and making note of what I felt were problem areas I moved forward with my latest tweaks to the front corners of the room (removing some absorption and creating additional diffusion) and the mounting/positioning of the speakers (prototype stands to get them off the subs, closer to the ground, and more rigid).

Generally speaking I think the speakers sound outstanding compared to what I've been exposed to. Now I'm getting down to really fine tuning them to the point that I minimize, or eliminate, those "acceptable compromises". Just about anyone that listens to them now thinks they sound incredible and only the most critical of ears understands how I can hear room for improvement. So here I am for help from all of you salty dogs.

So last night I set them back to vertical and realized an immediate improvement in clarity and, to some degree, dynamics. Next I pulled the sidewall first reflection absorption down. To my delight this widened the soundstage more than I've ever heard it before but unfortunately with a catch. The top end is a touch shrill now and can get uncomfortable on certain tracks. I'm still interested in trying diffusion on the sidewalls...perhaps in conjunction with absorption. I'm thinking of making up similar panels to the ones I have behind the speakers except drill lots of holes in them and place 703 panels behind the diffusion panel.

But ultimately I see I need to make a more serious effort with my stands and address the networks. Prepare to have your collective brains picked as I think I may pass on the 1.6's and move forward with (seriously) modding the MMGs.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 13:40:41
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 "So last night I set them back to vertical and realized an immediate improvement in clarity and, to some degree, dynamics. Next I pulled the sidewall first reflection absorption down. To my delight this widened the soundstage more than I've ever heard it before but unfortunately with a catch. The top end is a touch shrill now and can get uncomfortable on certain tracks. I'm still interested in trying diffusion on the sidewalls...perhaps in conjunction with absorption. I'm thinking of making up similar panels to the ones I have behind the speakers except drill lots of holes in them and place 703 panels behind the diffusion panel."

This is all behaving as it's supposed to. I love it when that happens.

The trick now to taming the high end is to add more HF absorption to the room, but in a different place. Season to taste. It doesn't really matter where, as long as the application is symmetrical and not at the first reflection points, where you do want reflections because they make the sound more spacious.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 09:54:13
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Has the Emotiva amp improved the impact of your drum playback?

Do you still have subwoofers around, or at least box speakers with strong bass drivers and an etra amp?

If so, get yourself a cheap commercial active crossover, like the Behringer 3400 - or get a better Rane or Ashly unit if the budget alows - and you can integrate the subwoofers or the box speakers' bass into the system and get the extra bass impact you want.

PG's crossover upgrade is also worth pursuing.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 21:38:25
tinnitusintx


 
Satie,

Prior to the Emotiva I was running a Soundcraftsmen MA5002....which sounded great through the Maggies. Warm and dynamic and I really liked it. It went into protection mode shortly after I got the MMGs and after that happened the XPA-2 crossed my path and I took it in. I didn't get a chance to do a back to back comparo against the 5002, but it seemed to offer more detail with perhaps slightly better dynamics. I do have a freshly recapped and modded Hafler 500 that I compared to the Emotiva and it just didn't have the presence of the Emotiva. I can say with certainty the Emotiva has detail almost to a fault....but I suspect as I improve the fidelity of the MMGs I'll come to better appreciate the Emotiva. However, the Soundcraftsmen went out for a complete refurb with new output transistors and upgraded, higher value caps. I should have it back next week and I'm pretty excited to hear it. It's a great amp.

Yes, I have dual DIY subs with 12" Dayton Titanic MkIII drivers in a slot ported box tuned to 35 hz but I'm gonna seal them and see how that sounds. They integrate with the Maggies pretty good, but could be better. Surprisingly fast for a ported box, though.


RickyM,

Nice to have someone familiar offer a little Asylum perspective so thanks for sharing the info. I don't want to ruffle feathers but, you know, us Texans have that pride thing.....for better or worse.

Yeah, I've been a little busy. The Maggies just compel me to want more. They're so good when you start to hear the deficiencies you just have to get on it and make them that much better. My stands were just an attempt to see how responsive the MMGs were to a few adjustments I felt were necessary. I'm all about a more concerted, serious effort to get the most out of them. BTW, the link to the pictures of your Quasi-Gunned project you PM'd me on AK wouldn't open. I'd sure like to see your build.

And are there pics anywhere of the 'sticks mod?

 

RE: pics [Stixbees], posted on February 18, 2012 at 11:17:56
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 T-TX, here are some pics. They may make more sense if you check the link at the bottom. No rocket science here...fireworks give me a hard enough time.

1. Do note the black tape at the top of the oak stick (1"x2"). It allows the cloth to slide back over the top without snags or tears.
2. In some cases, the original cloth will not be able to fully reach the bottom of the MMGs after the mod. [It suits me well for access to the contacts, which I later cover with another cloth segment. New covers will be ordered later.]
3. These are original-design MMGs. The frame sides on the newer ones are wider, perhaps allowing for a slightly wider stick on each side.
4. When covered back, I also use the original wood trim. I would not advise to leave the edges soft...but you are welcome to experiment.
5. Re-tighten to torque or just check every 6 months during first year.






















 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 18, 2012 at 06:06:36
RickeyM
Audiophile

Posts: 2208
Location: East Coast
Joined: March 15, 2003
 Here are a few "assembly stage" pics of my MMG's. Unfortunately, I never took any pics during construction.

























 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 18, 2012 at 11:31:53
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Damn pretty sight, Rickey!

I am not envious...I am not envious...I am not envious...(97 more times and ten flogs should do it, i hope :-))

 

Lovin my MMG's....., posted on February 19, 2012 at 08:58:44
RickeyM
Audiophile

Posts: 2208
Location: East Coast
Joined: March 15, 2003
 Boy I'll tell ya' what. If I find someone selling the same "Edge-Glued Hardwood Panels" that I used for the MMG's in the size I need for my 2.5's, it's on!

Maybe I should mosey over to Lowes?

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's....., posted on February 19, 2012 at 23:35:29
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Search for them as custom-made online. Here at the bottom is one source I just found. They do have Poplar.

Also, if it works for you, check the Janka hardness index. Poplar is like 300 vs the oaks of various types >1200. For enhanced Stixbees I am looking into either Hickory, Persimmon, or perhaps even Ipe. These 3 are probably overkill in the mode that you frame...and much harder to work on.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 09:21:56
Peter Gunn
Manufacturer

Posts: 3980
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: April 16, 2001
 As none of us were there we only had your words... which did lend the impression of a bootlegger flying down a dirt road at midnight :^ )

Let's simplify it. It appears you believe some modding or alterations are needed to both your MMG and your room to fully enjoy them. I agree with that.

As we are not there we have to assume the room you'll resolve on your own in time. It does however sound like you could benefit from treating the ceiling corners. May not seem like it would matter but in some rooms it makes a huge difference.

As for the maggies, it seems you have 3 options.

1 - Keep trying every mod every jack, jim and charlie recommends until it magically comes together.

2 - Pick one of them, jack, jim or charlie and do what they reccommend and nothing else.

3 - Say to hell with everyone and work thru it on your own.

In my experience #1 does not work and leads to frustration. #3 is only viable (and in fact is required) if you feel nobody else solved the problem to your satisfaction. That means you should logically go with #2.

Choose wisely, and good luck. :^ )

BTW, since I don't spend time here like I used to if you have an important question for me, email me, I may not see it if you post. Also, I do not disagree that heaven can be found in MMG's. It can be if they are altered properly so you have not made an unwise choice.


It's all about the music...

 

RE: top end is a touch shrill now, posted on February 17, 2012 at 08:58:54
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 This "shrill" may be turn out to be a common thing with raised MMGs. I am just speculating but I am researching it these days. It is hard for me to be sure because my MMGs are of the original design. These have somewhat different "stringing", with less tweeter runs (6 vs 8 in newr models).

For years, I left my MMGs on the floor and standing straight, 90 degress. Though I tested raising them early on, they were not yet as optimized as today. So, I did not catch the "shrill" thing earlier.

Last year, I started raising them (long story). The "shrill" started showing up. The measurements mainly indicate a peak at and around 3khz...smack in the area were the ear is very sensitive. (There's another peak further up close to the 6khz range, but less strong)

If this is related at all, for now, I can suggest what PG must have discovered very early on. A slight tilt backward. PG has always said that they sound better this way. I can only say that when raised, MINE stop displaying the peak as they are progressively tilted. At just around 4-5 degrees, it pretty much goes away.

There is a price for me to pay if I tilt. I am fighting to avoid it here with no tilt.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 22:15:10
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Peter! I am getting old for not betting that you would show up after such comments as were made. It is always good to see you around.

I hope we can agree to steer ourselves away from the debate on mylar front/back for now. As you well said, there's plenty of opportunity for improvement elsewhere.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 08:49:46
Peter Gunn
Manufacturer

Posts: 3980
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: April 16, 2001
 Yes, we're both getting old...... :^ )

I don't post much anymore because too much of the "old crowd" here is gone, either because they finally got what they wanted or no longer care, and all the new people are starting at square one putting forth comments and ideas like what we went thru never happened... and I don't have the desire to go thru every discussion (and argument) all over again. I suppose that's a sign of getting old. Anyway, if you new people want to save time, go thru the archives... believe me, it's ALL been said and discussed.

Anyway, that's the rub with our hobby. Listening is a personal issue, and it's clear not everyone hears the same way, so that means it is a matter of taste and stating absolutes is a slippery slope. However that does not necessarily mean we cannot make some assumptions of truths, or at least generalizations. I think we have to if we want to make any kind of progress, individually or as a group.

This guy and his post and actions are a microcosm of what goes on with many people when they come to this past time. Enthusiastic but without experience they are all over the map in their rush for instant gratification, trying and doing so many things without the understanding of why changes are happenening, and doing so many things at once it's impossible to know which change even had the effect. Despite that they still jump to premature conclusions that are usually wrong (as he did) and the worst part is it appeared he was already ready to write that incorrect assumption down as gospel. That's why I responded.

Understanding that the room you use is one of the single biggest factors in determining how your system sounds has always been the hardest nut to drive home. People think they can just plunk the system down anywhere and it should work, and that simply isn't how it is at all. In fact the better the gear the more finnicky it will usually be about the room it is in, and in contrast rooms that are wonderful sounding can make rather ordiniary stuff sound simply magical.

Time for our meds....


It's all about the music...

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 19:15:46
tinnitusintx


 
"This guy and his post and actions are a microcosm of what goes on with many people when they come to this past time. Enthusiastic but without experience they are all over the map in their rush for instant gratification, trying and doing so many things without the understanding of why changes are happenening, and doing so many things at once it's impossible to know which change even had the effect. Despite that they still jump to premature conclusions that are usually wrong (as he did) and the worst part is it appeared he was already ready to write that incorrect assumption down as gospel. That's why I responded."

Ok...wait a second. I have clearly touched a nerve here...and certainly unwittingly so. Again, with all due respect Mr. Gunn (and I mean that with total sincerity) I have to take issue with your comments. I'll preface by saying I am absolutely, positively, in no way here to make waves or attempt to dispute the knowledge that you and many others here have commited much time and effort to acquiring. You said earlier you weren't looking for an argument. I don't know if that was directed at me (seems I've been relegated to third person status which makes it tricky at times to discern where your comments are being directed) or another inmate with which you may have had a prior debate.....no matter. Point is I don't want an agrument either. I want to solve my problem. And I don't see anywhere I have made absolute statements about my findings that prop them up as gospel. I shared my observations in an attempt to provide information so that others may take that information and use it to offer me recommendations or correct me when I'm mistaken. That's it. Nothing more. If I'm the two-hundred-and-thirty-second person to ask the same tired questions then please accept my apology if I've wasted anybody's time. I'm no virgin to discussion forums and every time I hear someone complain of this I can't help but think of the comment "if you don't like what's on the station, change the channel". I appreciate the input...but dammit please don't allow me to be an imposition. That's the LAST thing I want to be to anybody.
And about being enthusiastic and inexperienced....Christ man, we all have to start somewhere. Remember, you did to. And damn straight I might be all over the map for a period of time as I explore and experiment with this stuff. I'm on a quest for knowledge through my own hands on trial and error combined with the knowledge others are willing to share. I'll get there eventually, so cut us newbies some slack. And instant gratification? You know, I don't think I'm even gonna' go there.
Hell, if I have a good year at the shop I may be a future customer of yours. But I'm not going to want to do business with someone that's jaded and bitter. You may not give a rat's ass that I feel that way ...but there it is just the same. I still love this stuff... regardless of whether I upset one of the last people in this communty I would want to upset or not.

"Understanding that the room you use is one of the single biggest factors in determining how your system sounds has always been the hardest nut to drive home. People think they can just plunk the system down anywhere and it should work, and that simply isn't how it is at all. In fact the better the gear the more finnicky it will usually be about the room it is in, and in contrast rooms that are wonderful sounding can make rather ordiniary stuff sound simply magical."

Again, not sure if this is directed at me but, regardless....AMEN, BROTHER! You're preaching to your choir here. I'm a hardcore proponent of getting the room right before anything else and my room demostrates that. It's been measured with a nice flat response and good decay and I've done that with fundamental and slightly advanced treatments. I'm not bragging....just making sure it's understood I'm fully aware of the importance of having a room with a good response and have made that paramount in my listening environment. I knew I had problems when I acquired a set of Vandersteen 2ci's and they sounded like crap. But I put the time and effort into my room's acoustics and got the Vandersteens to singing through room treatments and nothing else. From that point on I've been a room treatment junkie. But as I said before, my room was treated for monopolar designs and I'm slowly figuring out what to do in MY ROOM to make it more accomodating and responsive to a dipolar design.

I may have very well blackballed myself here and if that's the case then so be it. Not my intention but sometimes you step in a pile of shit even when you're watching where you're going.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 18, 2012 at 20:44:18
Peter Gunn
Manufacturer

Posts: 3980
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: April 16, 2001
 I wrote that before you replied to my original post correcting what you meant and where you yourself admitted it appeared you were using a shotgun approach. As I said, I only had your words to go by, I wasn't there, and a rapid shotgun approach that leads to confusion and premature conclusions is the norm, not the exception with people new to things.

If you knew me you'd know I have repeatedly said I was as stupid as anyone when I started. (almost a poster boy) Unfortunately it's practically a requirement when starting any new pastime. However, as I said your post very much mirrors the kind of things done and said by people teetering on the rails, I only pointed that out, I was not belittling you for it.

The comments about the room were meant in general for everyone, because a lot of people that should know better still seem to think they can get away with murder with their room, and they always blame room issues on anything but that. I don't know if it's because they don't know how to go about fixing it or they are just lazy, but far too many people do very little about the room the system goes in.

In fact when people post system pics the first thing I look at is the room, never the gear, and more often than not I'm shocked at what they consider to be acceptable... or even think it's good. If more time was spent here there'd be a lot more happy audiophiles. That is my only point.

Please note nothing I said was an attack against you, it only seemed like your method was ill considered so I noted it. I am not mad at you, trying to fight with you, or blackballing you. You pointed out the post was worded less than optimally. That's fine.

The only real fact at hand is that turning the speakers resulted in midrange droput which means you have a room issue. The speakers seemingly suddenly brighter or shill means you're fixing that issue, because stock I feel they are shrill. What I said before about resolving your entire dilemma still goes.

Wait... I decided I better read your other post... - Oh, and you suggested ceiling corner treatments...floor to ceiling superchunk broadband corner absorbers were the first acoustic treatments I did to my room.

That may account for why the room is too absorbing and why the midrange vanished. OK, my last bit of advice: Do not do anything before you know you need it.

I constantly see people adding RFI chokes, line filters, room absorbers etc.. before they even listen to the system. I ask them why and they say "Because everyone else does it." The fact is things like that can help IF you have the problem, however if you do not they often CAUSE a problem. Perfect audio is about minimalism - No more than we need, and no less than we need. You should not have treated the room before listening to it, and for a good month or more as well. You need to give your brain time to form enough files to make sound comparative judgements, and for countless reasons many sessions are needed.

Good luck with it. I am going to be very busy this week and likely won't be back here, so email me if you wish to discuss anything further.


It's all about the music...

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 19:27:29
tinnitusintx


 
And FWIW Mr. Gunn I do appreciate the recommendations you've shared to help me with my quest to improve my Maggies. There's little argument that your design is widely regarded as a success and I'd probably be wise to use it as a template for my future mods.

Oh, and you suggested ceiling corner treatments...floor to ceiling superchunk broadband corner absorbers were the first acoustic treatments I did to my room.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 19:49:16
RickeyM
Audiophile

Posts: 2208
Location: East Coast
Joined: March 15, 2003
 Having been around here for quite a while, I feel it's safe to say PG's comments were in reference to alot of the flack he took early on after he developed the Magnestand mod. In those days there were even poeple who'd never even heard a Gunned Maggie who said his ideas were wrong and improvements he heard were imagined!

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 09:10:00
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 [We both must have been posting at the same time. When I checked mine about the "shrill", yours showed up.]

I know what you mean about the newer crop. And it does feel a bit frustrating at times if the same stuff has to be rehashed. Still, it is nice to see so many new people. Which, in a sense, makes it all "new stuff". So, stay positive. I know you still enjoy it.

Anyway, you may be able to throw some perspective on the "shrill" mentioned earlier.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 09:48:31
Peter Gunn
Manufacturer

Posts: 3980
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: April 16, 2001
 This may come as a shock to some people but I dislike arguing. I get no satisfaction from it at all. Because of that I really have no desire to rehash old ones.

So while yes, it's always good to see new blood... I currently don't have the time or inclination to go thru it all over again, at least not right now. What also seems to effect my feelings is the first time it was the "first time", it was over new ground. I had broken a lot of walls and taken the conversation to places it hadn't been. Now it's just repetition.

So no, I don't think I enjoy it. I don't mind helping people because I appreciate help when I need it and helping was my goal. I did what I did in an effort to resolve the bickering and disagreement that went on here, to see if a real solution existed and then present it so people could get on with what matters.

Only too many would rather still argue, and they stand on their street corners demanding the world do as they say and that all the others are wrong. I myself stood on such a corner once. However as I dislike that and as I hope the work speaks for itself I got off my corner once my point was made.

All of that is why I post rarely anymore. However that may change... in time.

ANYWAY, I was so busy standing on my soapbox about not standing on a soapbox I didn't answer your question. I feel all maggies with QR tweeters are shrill. His room is also obviously absorbing if it's making whole regions vanish simply by turning the speaker. So he must have improved it enough that he's finally hearing the "real them". He should ideally install a better XO but failing that at the very least insert a 1.5 ohm resistor on the tweeter. (a duelund is best but a mills will work)



It's all about the music...

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 14:58:29
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
 "I listened to my MMGs once with the backside facing forward and didn't like the loss of midbass so I'm not sure I'm interested in following the Gunn recipe."

Gunned spekaers sound very different. Their midbass strength is their strength.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 17:10:38
tinnitusintx
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: North Texas
Joined: December 8, 2011
 So, if I'm reading between the lines here it sounds as if there is no significant improvement in fidelity and dynamics until I step up to a true ribbon equipped model. Is this correct? I must admit, I'm heavily swayed in the direction of the 1.6 from this damn review from Stereophile...

http://integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/reviews/stereophile_mg16qr.htm

...but I have to remind myself that just because they were the cat's meow to the author that may not be the case for me. But he sure makes them sound fantastic. Of course, his upstream gear was considerably better than what I have to offer them as well.

Ok then....let's put it this way. How many of you 1.6 owners that have owned or heard MMG's could go back to an MMG, mod it, and pocket the change and be completely satisfied? Maybe that's not a fair question, but I'd sure like to hear a few of you try to answer it.

Gonna set 'em back upright tonight and pull down the treatments tomorrow night and add them back one by one....starting with diffusion.

The Gunn mod that has the excellent mid bass....is that with the high-dollar Jupiter cap upgrade or his first generation xover upgrade (the one with the schematic in the "tweaks" section)?

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 19:26:06
tinnitusintx
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: North Texas
Joined: December 8, 2011



Hey Ricky, this is Michael (tomlinmgt) from AudioKarma....you've been helping me out with my MMG's over there. Thanks for chiming in here as well.

Yes, I understand the 1.6 aren't true ribbons...what I was saying is I'd have to go further up the chain than the 1.6 (to something with true ribbons such as 3-series, 2.5 or 6, 20.1, etc) to get a significant increase in performance over the MMG.

By framed and braced I mean what you see in the image below. I threw these together over the course of a few evenings with scrap lumber I had layin' around kind of as a prototype to address and, hopefully, correct a few issues I felt I had. One, I wanted to give them more rigidity than what the angle brackets I first used to stand them vertical could offer. Two, I had them sitting on top of the subs and I wanted to get them off as I felt there was a good chance the subs were vibrating the mylar and causing some distortion. Three, when on top of the subs they were about a foot-and-a-half off the ground and I wanted to get them a little lower. Four, Gunn says he prefers a little tiltback (the flashlight beaming in your eyes analogy) so I spiked the pillars so I could adjust in a little tiltback to see how this worked out for me. I'll set them back to vertical here in a few minutes and see if I can tell a difference. BTW, my initial statement that I have around fifteen degrees tiltback was way liberal...I went out and measured it and it's more like five to seven degrees.



 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 19:39:01
RickeyM
Audiophile

Posts: 2208
Location: East Coast
Joined: March 15, 2003
 Hey Michael, glad to hear from you. I see you've been busy. I now see what you mean by "framed". JBen's Stixbee's is more along the lines of what you need. Their position, backing the frame rather than "framing" it works much better. If you could adapt struts to them, they'd work even better. That said, a hardwood frame is an even better mod. Compared to the stock MDF, I think the term jaw-dropping is appropriate. As PG mentioned you should do the crossover mod. I did the Magnestand series style crossover on mine. I did a few changes to save some $$. I used ASC oil-in-paper caps instead of Obbligatos and Jantzen Superior caps instead of Dynamicaps (30uF-ASC/5.6uF-Jantzen/.33uF Obligatto Premium's). Instead of the Alphacore inductor I used a 1.0 mH 15g Sledgehammer inductor. I ended up using wooden cigar boxes as external crossover enclosures.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 21:40:51
JBen
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Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Oh, man! When you said your MMGs were "framed" I expected that you had either replaced the frame or reinforced the frame. That is why I did not even address this. What I see in the pictures is side-trimming, which hardly does it, much less with common lumber.

So, there is yet another opportunity still to be tapped. No wonder you could not like the drums!

As you try the range of good comments here, please DO consider really reinforcing the frame, or building a new one. In my case, I simply put oak harwood sticks (search for "Stixbees") and the performance boost was instant, undeniably strong and...extremely cheap.

Of course, if you are planning to sell them and go for the 1.6s, you may not want to alter the MMGs.

I do have to say that to get 1.6s to clearly surpass properly modded MMGs you may have to properly mod the 1.6s.

 

"Stixbees"?!?, posted on February 17, 2012 at 20:01:39
RickeyM
Audiophile

Posts: 2208
Location: East Coast
Joined: March 15, 2003



JBen, how in the world I missed everything about those is a mystery to me. I saw the P-frames, but the Stixbees went right under my radar. I did however, use something similar to temporarily brace up my MG-2.5's. I used some 1"x2" Poplar set on edge and formed into right-angle triangles, screwed into my sockless 2.5's. I resisted the urge to pretty it up as motivation to get on with hardwood frames tho' :^)

 

RE: "Stixbees"?!?, posted on February 17, 2012 at 23:25:01
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Neat test rig, Rickey! At least they don't offend the eyes as the P-frames did. Experimentally, the darn things worked great but, well...let's just say they could help those wishing for a divorce.

The Stixbees were so named by my wife, relieved that the thinner & hidden things were now doing the trick.

Poplar was what I almost made the Stixbees with. Then I found that the oak was more likely to match the performance of the thicker wood I had used for P-Frames. The P-Frames were 2x2. The Sixbees had to be 1x2 in order to fit under the cloth. It worked. I posted the diagram and that was it.

LOL! Unlike Dawnrazor, I did not make much noise. As we all know, he bought all the stock he could on the makers of the stuff for Razoring PLUS as many shares of Radio Shack as he could afford after promoting the Magwire, Oak wood producers offered me no incentive. ROFLMAO!!! (wow, I had not used this acronym since, like last century!)

T_TX: I may still have a picture or 2 that show part of the Stixbees when unclothed. I'll have to boot an old PC for it and I'll post it later.


 

RE: "Stixbees"?!?, posted on February 19, 2012 at 02:54:17
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey J,

LOL! Unlike Dawnrazor, I did not make much noise. As we all know, he bought all the stock he could on the makers of the stuff for Razoring PLUS as many shares of Radio Shack as he could afford after promoting the Magwire, Oak wood producers offered me no incentive. ROFLMAO!!! (wow, I had not used this acronym since, like last century!)

ALL I can say is that the venture capitalists who financed all this thought it was genius and they appreciated the shill based marketing approach. The ONLY check box on their list I missed was the Ponzi aspect which I AM working on...

I too missed the stixbees. I would have lost money that there was a Jben post I had missed. Looks like a nice addition but I would change the wood type for certain. Maybe the maple producers would work with you??? And why not an aggressive name like "The Vice Mod" or something...

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 19:40:44
tinnitusintx
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: North Texas
Joined: December 8, 2011



And here are the MMGs as I had them before I built the braced stands. You can see the diffusor panels I built behind them with absorption panels behind the diffusors. I have since pulled the diffusor panels out closer to the MMGs by about a foot (in the pic they're three feet behind the MMG's, now around two feet and even with the front of the rack) and this improved clarity noticeably. I'd like to try a few more of these panels at first reflection rather than the 703 fiberglass absorption I have there now. In the right hand front corner you can barely see it but there is a hot water heater that is encased by 703 panels. I've since taken those panels away and this moved the soundstage out and back into that corner as the water heater acts as a big cylindrical diffusor. To balance the room, I removed the lower half of the 703 superchunk corner absorbers you see in the left hand front corner and replaced them with two hard shell bass drum cases (one stacked atop the other) to act as cylindrical diffusors just like the water heater in the opposite corner. This balanced out my soundstage as prior to creating the diffusion in the corners the right side always sounded weaker across the bandwidth and the center image was slightly left of center.

 

Well, first..., posted on February 16, 2012 at 17:49:01
RickeyM
Audiophile

Posts: 2208
Location: East Coast
Joined: March 15, 2003
 ...the MG-1.6 isn't a true ribbon model.

What exactly do you mean by "framed & braced"?

Gunned MMG's have better, lower resistance inductors.
They also do not have their panels raised a foot in the air and are near vertical.
Gunned Maggies have hardwood frames, solid bases and struts.
The Jupiter caps have nothing to do with the mid-bass.

I feel these things contribute to the mid-bass performance I got from my Quasi-Gunned MMG's. One day after I did the mod, I was crankin' them up pretty good and standing about 18" in front of one of the speakers. I distinctly felt air passing by my legs being driven by the panel on bass notes. I wouldn't call it "flapping my pants leg" like you'd get from a big cone sub, bit it was suprising none-the-less.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 13:33:21
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 Well, it's difficult to get the drum sound right on any playback equipment. Sometimes it's the recording. But, that said, my MMG's can hit pretty hard - especially my biamp'ed once driven by Crown xti2000 Amps - I've been able to hit 113 dB peaks (~1000 Watts) at 2 meters away from the panels. Note however, that a real drum kit rim shot will reach to the high 120's at 2 meters. - and that's with a band limited (48kHz sampling) precision sound meter (B&K Type 2270) doing the measurement.

I use a couple of sub's on my biamp system as well. crossovers at 80 and 1100Hz.

There are many "Box" loudspeaker systems that do better on Drums - and the 3.6's and 20.1's (not yet in my house) seem to have more impact.

Sometimes I think that a panel speaker that all parts and not driven equally (note the tuning dots & look back or search my post on MMG Intensity Plots) are more destructive to impulses than they could be. kinda makes sense. But the MMg's are excellent audiophile value for the money - because of their room friendlyness. Oh and as another poster commented - not too much absorption please.


"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 16:57:01
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I think any line source or large area speaker is destructive of impulse response. However, the MMG's just don't have the sort of impact the big Maggies do, e.g., my old Tympanis. The Tympanis could rock out, my MMG's can't. Also, I don't think the QR tweeter, good as it is, can be compared to the true ribbons. Though I suspect that the main problem the OP is having here is that his room is overdamped at high frequencies.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 08:32:17
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 The MMG's are not really a line source and some of this is why they sound so good! The Full range MMG-W's are even more interesting>

"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 17, 2012 at 17:25:44
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 From the mids on up, I guess you could say that they're a tapered line source,l owing, I assume, to the fact that the top and bottom of the diaphragm are mechanically constrained? Not really a bad thing in a line source that doesn't run the full height of the room, although ideally I think the shading would all be at the top.

I don't remember seeing these, I saw another set that you posted.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 10:55:38
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Yeah, agree with JBen, at least I think it was JBen -- lose the absorption. It's eating up the highs. And bring the Maggies vertical, they'll image better too.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 17:57:18
RickeyM
Audiophile

Posts: 2208
Location: East Coast
Joined: March 15, 2003
 FWIW, I just had diffusion on the wall behind the speakers and absorber panels at the sidewall 1st reflection points and an absorber panel right behind my head because the sofa was right up against the wall. The mids & highs from my Quasi Gunned MMGS was exquisite.
Also FWIW, I used different crossover components of the same value that PG specified.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 18:25:17
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 That's a good arrangement. Some would leave out the sidewall absorption, I think it depends on whether you prefer lateral spaciousness or clarity -- I like suppressing the side reflections myself, but I've found it's optional with dipoles since they don't radiate as much to the sides.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 18:29:37
RickeyM
Audiophile

Posts: 2208
Location: East Coast
Joined: March 15, 2003
 I initially used the same absorbers with my MG-2.5R's but recently removed them in favor of trying diffusion. Sounds better than I thought it would but I've more listening to do.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 18:36:24
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 What kind of diffusers are you using? QRD diffusers don't always work well on the sidewalls because you get lobing if you listen within about eight feet. I imagine the same thing would be true of skylines.

 

Try adding a DWM woofer..., posted on February 16, 2012 at 08:30:53
Tubo
Audiophile

Posts: 375
Location: So. California
Joined: June 9, 2004
 I have one in my home theater system and it improved the impact of drums and other percussion instruments. I have stock MMG's for left and right speakers, and an MMGC paired with a DWM woofer as my center channel.

According to Magnepan, the "Maggie Woofers can be used for fine-tuning the bass and midbass performance of floor-standing models."

Note that the DWM is a woofer, not a subwoofer.

The downside is that a single DWM is more expensive than a pair of MMG's. :(

 

RE: Try adding a DWM woofer..., posted on February 16, 2012 at 09:16:09
tyu
Audiophile

Posts: 963
Joined: April 19, 2011
 Two Subes are in my setup an have been for over 10 years....Make your life ezer....I have a pr of M12s... i sold ADS in the 90s....I have a pr Of $10k Martinlogans setup today... with out the subs i lose about 1/3....it even more with the maggys 2.5r i have so get [two subs] spend about as much as you did on the your maggys...an any speakers you put in well be short work to get good sound....forgive me... i am not spending your money..just my 5cent on eze way to get gooooooooooood sound.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 15, 2012 at 22:51:59
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 If easy to do remove all room treatment and see how the drums sound. I have found that most people overdamp there room to the detriment of a live sound feel. Drums on my 3.6's really kick and other than 2 Fica trees I use no room treatment
Alan

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 15, 2012 at 23:09:46
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 "most people overdamp" Right. LOL! Alan, I'll tell about it if it works...and you'll flip when you see how far I've been going in the opposite direction. It is an attempt to get away with murder: open glass!

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 11:38:05
tinnitusintx


 
Well, seems there's a new twist to my situation. I've been on the fence about continuing the tweaks to my MMGs or just moving up to 1.6's. Well, a set of 1.6s has become available to me for a reasonable price and I think this is the direction I'd like to go....unless someone who has experience with both models can tell me they likely wouldn't offer much of an improvement in the area of my concern. I've heard plenty of folks say they are simply a better performing set of speakers than the MMGs, but if I'm gonna be right back in the same boat with weaker drum reproduction than what I get from my best cone/box speakers then I'd sure like to know that before I drop the coin on 1.6's. As it stands, the MMG's can be put back to stock.....once I do the xover mod I've kind of crossed that line and may not be as easy to sell.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 17:09:02
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Can you fit a pair of big ones? Like Tympanis? It seems to me they'd be ideal for someone who likes drums and they're in the same general price range as the 1.6's. They come close to what a big dynamic can do in terms of dynamic range and bass extension; the only time my 1-D's ever broke a sweat was during the cannon shots on the Telarc 1812. As far as I know they have the best midbass of any speaker ever made. They combine slam with naturalism, while other speakers seem to give you a choice between one or the other.

I marvel at the big sound the little MMG's can make and could live with them for the rest of my life, but, sonically, the MMG's are a compact car to the Tympanis' Mack truck.

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 16, 2012 at 14:55:11
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 1.6s are MORE but not necessarily better.

The 1.6s do have better bass extension, but..........

Before junking out the MMGs, please try standing them up straight.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 15, 2012 at 22:41:14
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 I would not brag about the drums in my MMGs vs cones, but given that I hardly use the subwoofer they do sound pretty good. Rim shots are certainly not weak.

Perhaps we can identify a common set of music pieces we may be able to compare notes with. So, if you have a few favorites that are troubling you let me know. I may have them or a friend may.

In the meantime here are a few comparative generalities that may or may not be related:

- You raised them. I raised them but mostly to REDUCE bass (long story) 5"
- You angle them backward. I keep them straight up. I lose too much clarity at angles of more than 5 degrees. Bass integrity and snap is certainly hurt, as well.
- You muffled sound. I try to live with as little treatment as I can get away with. That said, there is a piece of absorption material that is key to a better bass "kick"...but it is relative to this room/layout.
- You use subwoofers. If I use mine at all, it adds frequency depth but takes away things...and the leading edge of bass drum beats is often one of them. Then again, the Velodyne that I have is a ported design, not good for Maggies.
- You are using a stock xover. I bi-amp...

...YET, I can revert to normal xovers and still get fairly decent drums. To be sure, the parts that I use for a regular xover are better than the stock ones. I know that the Erse coil that replaced the original one made a solid contribution during my early tweak days...

I do advocate bi-amping (at line level passive or active) but other factors should be looked at first. In your case, I suspect that there's still some opportunity for gains even before altering xovers.

BTW, flipping the MMGs around did not work for me either...among other reasons, for the same thing you observed.

As I think about it all, there is not one SINGLE thing that did the trick for me. It is a combination of things...some of which are room-specific. So, all we have to do is find out what works in your room!





 

RE: Lovin my MMG's, except....., posted on February 15, 2012 at 21:25:06
tinnitusintx
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: North Texas
Joined: December 8, 2011
 Oh, and I have dual 12" DIY Dayton Titanic subs located just outboard of the MMG's.

 

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