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How important is it to have your speakers level?

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Posted on November 7, 2009 at 19:30:34
jimbill
Audiophile

Posts: 1155
Location: Texas
Joined: May 31, 2004
I noticed that my ML Ascent's weren't level. I'm talking about the bubble in the level being a tad off dead center.

RE: How important is it to have your speakers level?, posted on November 13, 2009 at 00:11:33
Neuro
Audiophile

Posts: 625
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Joined: June 29, 2001
I just spent some time adjusting the Mye Stands spiked feet (with the help of nice 2' level) to make my 3.6Rs absolutely vertical. It seems to really have helped out with coherency, image solidity, and left-right balance.

RE: How important is it to have your speakers level?, posted on November 13, 2009 at 09:20:39
MaggieLover
Audiophile

Posts: 1050
Location: Central New Jersey
Joined: November 1, 2006
Not surpised. I found the same with my 1.6's. I also got additional benefits by ensuring the distance from the center of each tweeter to my ears was close to identical, and the toe-in angle relarive to my seating position was the same for both speakers. It always amazes me what big differences little changes can make.

Maggies, because you can never be too thin!

Mark

RE: How important is it to have your speakers level?, posted on November 13, 2009 at 09:46:11
Neuro
Audiophile

Posts: 625
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Joined: June 29, 2001
It makes perfect sense if you consider the wavelengths of high frequencies (5000hz == ~6cm) and the impact that a 1cm offset.

-- Nils

Ahhh, but are your EARS level?, posted on November 9, 2009 at 20:32:28
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 363
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
Most people's bodies are not perfectly symmetrical--eyes, ears, etc. may be quite unevenly placed not to mention the shape of the skull and the inner parts of the ears.

Oh no...now what do we do about that?

GR

RE: Ahhh, but are your EARS level?, posted on November 10, 2009 at 07:41:39
MaggieLover
Audiophile

Posts: 1050
Location: Central New Jersey
Joined: November 1, 2006
Very true, so I guess careful setup of toe-in and tilt is irrelavent, and all that stuff about moving the speakers an inch or two at a time when optimizing the location is also unecessary. Hell a 3 degree tilt with no toe in on one speaker should mate just fine with a perfectly vertical speaker and 5 degree of toe on. Since we're asymetrical like a Picasso painting, why worry about those details?



Maggies, because you can never be too thin!

Mark

RE: Ahhh, but are your EARS level?, posted on November 10, 2009 at 16:55:52
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 363
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
You know, I really have to wonder sometimes about folks who insist that moving something a half-inch results in huge and absolutely necessary sonic changes. Do they have a fixed-position helmet into which they strap their heads so that their ears are in EXACTLY the same place whenever they listen?
I know when I listen to music, I actually move my head from time to time. I may tilt it back, close my eyes and listen or sit more upright or tilt or rotate my head from time to time. All these things, that are normal human activity, must change the aural perspective. My ears move a half inch or more during such episodes.
Are their speakers and listening chair bolted to the floor to prevent any destruction of the listening experience? What if they have a wooden floor? How do they counteract the insidious movement of the floorboards when the air gets humid, destroying their carefully-determined geometries?
What about changes in relative humidity or air pressure? How do we ensure that the air in the listening room never changes as this could adversely affect the sound propagation? Worry, worry, worry.
Maybe I'm not as sensitive a listener as some of these folks, but this strikes me as obsessive overkill, inhumane and impossible to sustain in any case. This is not my idea of musical "pleasure".

George

RE: Ahhh, but are your EARS level?, posted on November 11, 2009 at 06:05:58
MaggieLover
Audiophile

Posts: 1050
Location: Central New Jersey
Joined: November 1, 2006
An addendum to my other response.

The main argument seem to be that very small differences in angle at the speaker are irrelavent because the movement of the head or the shape of the ear at the seating position may be equal to greater than that small change in angle.

But consider that the speaker is generating a radiating pattern. Change the angle of the speaker and the pattern changes slightly. However a half inch difference in angle at the speaker could translate into several inches or more of difference at the listening position.

Test this yourself. Take a flash light with a narrow beam and shine it onto the wall opposite you. When you change the angle of the light almost imperceptively at your end, the beam striking the wall may move 5 or 6 inches or more, depending on how much you move the light and your distance to the wall. Again while perhaps not a perfect analogy to sound propagation, small changes can make big difference at the listening chair.

And perhaps the visual comparison to sound is even more valid than I suggest. After all the standard way of locating the sidewall first relection points is to place a mirror flat on the side wall so that the relection of the tweeter can be viewed from the seating position. This is both an accurate and mathematically sound procedure. The geometric formula for identifying the first reflection points yields the same results! Those that do identify and control for first relections are usually amply rewarded with deeper and wider soundstages.

Anyone can get good sound with fairly careful attention to system setup. All I'm suggesting is that taking setup to the next level with nore precise measurements can yield additional improvements.

Maggies, because you can never be too thin!

Mark

RE: Ahhh, but are your EARS level?, posted on November 10, 2009 at 20:26:32
MaggieLover
Audiophile

Posts: 1050
Location: Central New Jersey
Joined: November 1, 2006
Okay. Where do I start. First, I agree with you that the search for better sound can be, and often is, obsessive from the point of view of the general public.

Most middle class people will buy a $500 to $1500 system, place the speakers where they will fit and call it a day. They may believe that anyone who spends $5K, $10K, 20K or more, thinks that amplifiers, preamplifiers and CD players sound different from one another, and are willing to compromise the family room by moving furniture to accommodate the acoustics of a sound system, is obsessive. And they would be correct! We on this forum are obsessed to one degree or another with the goal of having a musically satisfying sound system. You are too, or you wouldn't be posting here.

The road to sonic nirvana differs for all of us, and different people are prepared to go to different lengths to achieve it. Based upon your post you seem to have limits beyond which you will not venture, and that’s fine for you. Certainly, as you and others have pointed out, our sculls, ears and bodies are not symmetrical and the introduction of the position of your body and head are additional variables to be considered. When I listen my head does occasionally move, but when it does move more than a couple of inches left or right I can easily detect shifts in timbre and the sound field which I find annoying.

I have long believed that each and every sound system has an ideal sweet spot in a given room that will render the best sound at the seating position from a variety of recordings. Even in systems that are known for having wideer sweet spots, there is still a small optimum location where everything comes together. And when it does. WOW!

For years when setting up my speakers, whether they were boxes or planars, I was fairly careful about angles and rigidity and such, and the results paid off. It wasn’t until very recently that I upped the ante and started measuring tilt, both fore and aft, and left and right, toe-in, and distance to my ears with much more accuracy. The end result shocked me. And I don’t use that word lightly. I’ve been an audiophile for almost 40 years and I’m not easily impressed. It was as if a veil was lifted and everything was now more in focus. Musical timbers were improved, the sound stage was deeper and seemed wider as well.

I was thinking of a visual analogy to this and it occurred to me that the old fashioned Stereopticon might do. This 19th century device used a card with two slightly offset photographic images of the same subject side by side and held in a viewing frame. The card could be moved closer to, or farther away from the binocular lenses the viewer looked through until the images were in correct alignment with the viewers eyes, and then magically, you could see the image in three dimensions. There was one, and only one, optimum location for each viewer. If one image could be moved closer than the other to the viewer, or placed at a slight angle, or moved higher or lower than the other, the illusion would be compromised or collapse altogether. While the propagation of sound from stereo speakers in a room may be more complex, the end result is similar. For each person in a given room, there is an optimum position in which the three dimensional illusion is strongest for them. Any other position is, to one degree or another, a compromise.

While I do not suggest that everyone go to the trouble I have with regard to setup, I think for those interested enough, the results are worth it!


Maggies, because you can never be too thin!

Mark

RE: Ahhh, but are your EARS level?, posted on November 11, 2009 at 21:57:56
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 363
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
Hey Mark,

Well, my friend, you're right about one thing. Audiophiles are obsessive, and I'm no exception. I have owned so many different stereo components over the last forty years, it makes my head spin to think about it. Speakers especially.

And, truth be told, I have experienced some of the sonic shifts differing speaker positions can afford. And this actually occurred with a pair of Maggies. I had a pair of MG 1.6 QRs for awhile and they sounded very boomy with one-note bass. I posted a message here and someone said move 'em around. I looked at Cardas's Web site where there was a position calculator and ran the numbers. Then I got out a measuring tape and some masking tape and measured and put tape on the floor and gave another listen. Boom gone, one-note bass gone--much better sound. I sold those Maggies.

A few months later, I bought another pair of 1.6 QRs thinking maybe I didn't give them a fair enough hearing. Now THAT's obsessive! Then I got a pair of Quad ESL-63s. I did a lot of listening and comparing and ended up selling the Maggies (again). I prefer the Quads, but I think I could easily have lived with those Maggies.

I'll start moving those Quads around now.

All the best,

George

RE: Ahhh, but are your EARS level?, posted on November 12, 2009 at 06:48:49
MaggieLover
Audiophile

Posts: 1050
Location: Central New Jersey
Joined: November 1, 2006
Thats a funny story. I can't tell you if you would have the same luck with quads in your room if you decide to measure more carefully. I hope so.

I don't say this because I'm afraid to commit to an opinion that others might not share, but because long experience has taught me that personal expectation is probably the most critical component of a sound system. Some people want the music loud and in their face, some listen as very low levels, others spread their speakers much wider apart than I think they should, with the misguided hope that the wider apart the speakers are, the wider the sound stage. And the list goes on.

Thats why my suggestions are always expressed with regard to my expectations and my experiences with my components in my listening room. Anything beyond that would be a generalization based on insufficient information.

Maggies, because you can never be too thin!

Mark

RE: How important is it to have your speakers level?, posted on November 8, 2009 at 06:32:21
Norman M
Audiophile

Posts: 230
Location: Rockland County
Joined: January 3, 2006
I'm sure the level bubble as applied to my (outer) ears would be more off 'dead center' than it is to my speakers. (Talk about having nothing better to worry about.)

RE: How important is it to have your speakers level?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 20:05:47
MaggieLover
Audiophile

Posts: 1050
Location: Central New Jersey
Joined: November 1, 2006
While I'd agree with the importance of "having them point at the same place and being the same distance away", I think having them at the same angle is almost as important. I found that even a difference of a degree or less, front to back and left to right, negatively effects not only the sound stage but the timbre of the instruments. The greater the difference in angle between the speakers, the more pronounced the effect.

Maggies, because you can never be too thin!

Mark

It all depends, posted on November 7, 2009 at 21:08:30
esande
Audiophile

Posts: 172
Location: Washington, DC
Joined: December 27, 2008
On how level the ground is. It's a fact that you want a flat surface. That mitigates the tilting effect that you might otherwise get.

RE: It all depends, posted on November 8, 2009 at 09:28:55
MaggieLover
Audiophile

Posts: 1050
Location: Central New Jersey
Joined: November 1, 2006
Of course. And in addition we're assuming here that the the five foot plus panel is rigidly straight from top to bottom, which it may not be.

While it 'may' be absolutely straight when manufactured, I suspect it begins to bow slightly over time due to the natural warpage of any wood product, especially with the vertical weight over such a thin profile.

I know my floor is not level. That's why I use a spirit level with a built in protractor on two locations on the top of each speaker to measure both fore and aft, and left and right tilt. I do the same thing on two points on each side of both speakers. The protractor allows me to accurtately measure fore and after tilt from pure vertical even on the the speakers sides! All these meaasurements at various points help compensate for any slight unevenness in the manufacture of the wooden frame, giving me more accurate results. The actual adjustments are accomplished using the four spiked feet of my Mye stands. It would be difficult, or almost impossible to adjust the speakers accurately using the stock stands, and even if you could, the results would be far from rigid!

I found that having the identical fore and aft, and left and right tilt, along with identical toe in and identical distance from the tweeters to my ears was magical. The results were just more musical with both a noticably wider and deeper soundstage than I had before. Few people go to this much trouble, in part because they may think its obsessive and over the top, and really won't result in that much improvement, or their listening space has too many other serious placement limitations that would out weigh the benefits I hear.

I've had my speakers set up this way, with slightly less regard for accurate meaurement, for quite a while and was very happy with the reults. After reading Jim Smith's book, "Get Better Sound", I readdressed the various meaurements with a much higher degree of accuracy and the results were nothing less than profound in my paricular listening room. Jim Smith's book is all about system setup, and some of it may differ with ideas that many here hold, but I can not argue with the results I've gotten . He only has one chapter on planars, but he suggests many ideas throughout the book that, while not specific to planars, are still applicable. BTW Jim Smith worked for Magnepan many years ago and wrote some of their setup manuals at the time.


While Norman M is correct when he says, "I'm sure the level bubble as applied to my (outer) ears would be more off 'dead center' than it is to my speakers." this is no way means that attention to detail should not be applied to those things that can be controlled. If one were to to take his suggestion up a notch, why bother even approximating a similar tilt or toe in or distance between speakers if everything will be thrown off at the ears. My stance is that while the ears are something we have very little control over, that doesn't mean that having everthing thing else set up "right" won't make a difference in what we hear. It certainly does in my case. Both my wife and 20 year old son (who is a conservatory music major) have noticed an improvement without even knowing I made any changes.

Maggies, because you can never be too thin!

Mark

RE: How important is it to have your speakers level?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 19:44:42
esande
Audiophile

Posts: 172
Location: Washington, DC
Joined: December 27, 2008
Not as important as having them point at the same place and being the same distance away. IMHO, of course. :-).

What he said..., posted on November 11, 2009 at 08:11:25
Anji12305
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Massachusetts South Coast
Joined: February 20, 2009
You're trying to generate a coherent wavefront, from each speaker, that impinges on your head in the same place. That's where you get the illusion of depth and image placement.

Keeping everything plumb and level just makes it easier to keep track of changes, if you like moving things around.

A word of warning - use some kind of tape marking to keep track of a position you like (or a note taped to the back of your speaker) if the mood to experiment strikes you.

Jim Smith's book is all over this topic and was invaluable to me.

RE: What he said..., posted on November 11, 2009 at 08:51:31
MaggieLover
Audiophile

Posts: 1050
Location: Central New Jersey
Joined: November 1, 2006
"Jim Smith's book is all over this topic and was invaluable to me."

Amen to that! It is the bible of setup techniques as far as I'm concerned.

One tidbit. For a few years now I had felt that the presentation of the soundstage was being smeared slighty when I wore my glasses. When I listened critically I got into the habit of taking them off. It just seemed to sound better that way! I never mentioned it to anyone before now for fear of sounding overly obsessive, but I'm apparently very sensitive to slight shifts in the soundatage. Much to my surprise and pleasure, Jim has a tip in his book specifically mentioning the impact of wearing glasses on some listeners. While many may still think its a lot of hooey, I finally feel vindicated. ;-)

Maggies, because you can never be too thin!

Mark

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