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Ribbons + tubes on their way out = miserable

70.132.1.81
Posted on November 2, 2009 at 23:15:39
Neuro
Audiophile

Posts: 625
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Joined: June 29, 2001
 If you own true ribbon Maggies and you use tube amps, this information might be helpful:

I just discovered what tubes that need to be replaced sound like! For a while, I was pretty unhappy with my stereo, especially the treble. The ribbon was sounding flat (no soundstage depth), veiled (no detail), with reduced top-end extension. I then looked through my old emails and realized that I'd been somewhat heavily using my current output tubes for nearly two years to drive quite a difficult load!

I swapped the old Gold Lion re-issues out for a set of Valve Art 6550s (a good reliable tube but not the caliber of the GL reisssues), powered up the amps, adjusted the bias, and put on one of my favorite SACDS: Aimee Mann's "Lost in Space" MoFi remaster. Boy oh boy did it sound the way I remembered my stereo sounding. Everything just "relaxed" yet with increased detail and extension. Go figure.

Just a heads up... make sure you know when to replace tubes! I'm pretty new to tube gear, so I didn't know any better.

-- Nils

RE: Ribbons + tubes on their way out = miserable, posted on November 12, 2009 at 16:14:35
Cory M.
Audiophile

Posts: 875
Location: Midwest
Joined: April 10, 2005
Contributor
  Since: July 4, 2006
 Hey Nils,

Just caught your post here. Those Gold Lion reissues are some very fine output tubes, and there is a possibility that there is plenty more life left in them. The only thing is, you will have to coax it out of them.

There's a very crude procedure known as "tube baking" that I've used successfully on a couple octets of Winged C Svetlana KT88s. I was just about in the same stage with my system, where I knew that something way awry, but couldn't quite pin it down. After this process, the sparkle returned to my ribbons, and the tubes basically sound like new.

Whatever you do, just don't throw them away! (Hoping you didn't do that yet ;-)







Cory
Why aren't you tubeheads running Speltz autoformers...., posted on November 3, 2009 at 21:01:33
Marc Bratton
Audiophile

Posts: 4578
Joined: June 15, 2000
 ...between your output tubes and your Maggies? Put the Maggies on the 4x taps, your V4's are now looking at an even 16 ohm load, instead of 4 ohms. 1/4th the current demand; WAY easier on the power tubes. Doubles the damping factor of your V4's as well. DOH!! You lose a few watts. Big deal. You will hear the improvement, and your power tubes will thank you! Even with my hulking SS monoblocs, I still hear a worthwhile improvement in the treble with the 2x taps. But with tube amps, the improvement is 'more than subtle'. Wouldn't be without 'em.

RE: Why aren't you tubeheads running Speltz autoformers...., posted on November 4, 2009 at 12:18:52
kazoo
Audiophile

Posts: 67
Location: Illinois
Joined: June 17, 2003
 I have not heard about these yet. Would they allow you to run lower power tube amps with the maggies?

RE: Why aren't you tubeheads running Speltz autoformers...., posted on November 4, 2009 at 16:14:14
Mando
Audiophile

Posts: 153
Joined: September 18, 2007
 Naahh, you don't want to do that. You still want your power. But the overall control your amp has on the speakers will be better, as it's not driving such a ponderous load. It's a very pleasant change. If you overdo it , the sound gets a bit dry and clinical, and then you just dial it back a stop. I've enjoyed mine either at various times on various taps; currently like 4x best.
Hope this helps,
Mando

RE: Why aren't you tubeheads running Speltz autoformers...., posted on November 5, 2009 at 11:15:58
kazoo
Audiophile

Posts: 67
Location: Illinois
Joined: June 17, 2003
 Thanks for the explenation. Also how big are these. I am going to be building a new xover so I will just make the box big enough to fit these also.
Thanks,
John

Big and heavy toroidal transformers., posted on November 5, 2009 at 11:37:20
Al Sekela
Audiophile

Posts: 8279
Location: Northern California
Joined: February 18, 2002
 The ZEROs are useful to improve performance of Maggies with tube amps. When I used them, I could detect no loss of treble clarity but a big improvement in control.

I don't recall the exact dimensions, but you can contact Paul Speltz directly:

[from his web site]

19) Who is Paul Speltz and where can I ask more questions?

I'm just a music loving Electronic Engineer, having fun with my hobby, selling a properly implemented impedance transforming device that many people are enjoying. Feel free to contact me with any additional questions at: paulspeltz@hotmail.com or call 651-735-0534

RE: Big and heavy toroidal transformers., posted on November 6, 2009 at 09:49:49
morricab
Dealer

Posts: 4456
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Well if it is the same wire as his anti-cables then no-way! That wire definitely reduces the quality of sound in the highs.

RE: I KNEW I had done the right thing by buying anti-cables!, posted on November 6, 2009 at 10:37:13
Travis
Audiophile

Posts: 3266
Location: La Grange, Texas
Joined: November 25, 2001
Contributor
  Since: May 13, 2008
 Thanks for the validation.



"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
RE: I KNEW I had done the right thing by buying anti-cables!, posted on November 12, 2009 at 17:34:01
morricab
Dealer

Posts: 4456
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 LOL! glad it smoothes out your cheese grater highs.

RE: Oh no, don't you remember,, posted on November 13, 2009 at 08:27:17
Travis
Audiophile

Posts: 3266
Location: La Grange, Texas
Joined: November 25, 2001
Contributor
  Since: May 13, 2008
 I sold my Heil AMT-1s years ago.


"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
That's them......, posted on November 5, 2009 at 18:34:10
Marc Bratton
Audiophile

Posts: 4578
Joined: June 15, 2000
 Will never be without mine again. They even effect an improvement with big currentmeister SS amps, but their greatest effect is with the better control they offer tube amps, as Al Sekela has said. Higher damping factor, AND less current demand.

Went down that path too, but, posted on November 3, 2009 at 15:53:01
Keith944T
Audiophile

Posts: 127
Location: Western PA
Joined: April 23, 2009
 luckily for me, I had a tube obviously go bad.
I noticed the top was white when I was biasing the amps. The when I flipped the dip switch, no reading on the meter.
The other thing I noticed is when I think I'm getting something a bit "weird", I may be in need of biasing.
The hard part is when you get a tube going bad on the preAmp!
I had that happen too, That came across as popping on startup and a hiss when adjusting the volume.

Rogue Monoblock 150's FYI. You're right about the heat, luckiliy we didn't have much of a Summer here, so the AC wasn't needed as much, but I don't have to turn the living room heat up in the winter!

RE: Went down that path too, but, posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:07:10
Neuro
Audiophile

Posts: 625
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Joined: June 29, 2001
 So you've got two Rogue M-150s, which have a similar tube complement to the Quicksilver V4. Imagine instead having four of them, plus two Bryston 7B-SST monoblocks in a 17' x 22' x 8' room. Toasty...

Looks like Reno HiFi has a refurb'd Pass Labs X250 with a 30-day trial period. I'm tempted to demo it on one of my channels to compare / contrast against the Quicksilver V4s.

-- Nils

Rogues on top, Autoformers, Gallo Solid state on bottom, posted on November 4, 2009 at 04:36:31
Mando
Audiophile

Posts: 153
Joined: September 18, 2007
 Hey Nils,
You ought to keep the tubes on top and get a nice solid state amp for the bass panel. I really think it's what you're looking for. I have Rogue M150's on top with autoformers, and a Gallo solid state bass amp on the bottom, and after finally getting my room treatments dialed in, it's pretty awesome. I run the ribbon full range with separate RF chokes in place on all three panels.

Tubes are great, I love 'em, I hear a difference, but there is a hassle and expense factor. With your exquisite system, I'd keep the Quicksilvers and get some SS power down low.

Just my $.02 (and worth every penny!).
Basking in the orange glow,
Mando

I concur: tubes on top work for me too, posted on November 4, 2009 at 12:10:58
CometCKO
Audiophile

Posts: 395
Joined: August 9, 2002
 I'm running a pair of much-modified Citation-II amps as monoblocks, about 120wpc on each side, just for the tweeter/mids. Innersound ESL-300 for the bass panels. Very happy with the sound, once I got the levels matched on the two amps (different sensitivity). Active crossover... good stuff!

RE: Rogues on top, Autoformers, Gallo Solid state on bottom, posted on November 4, 2009 at 11:48:17
Neuro
Audiophile

Posts: 625
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Joined: June 29, 2001
 I'd keep the Quicksilvers and get some SS power down low.

You mean like the somewhat-inconspicuous Bryston 7B-SSTs hiding below my tube amps? ;)

I tried the Zero Autoformers a while ago, but I thought that they made everything sound very bright and thin. Perhaps I need to give them another shot, but floor real estate is pretty limited!



Zero-boxes would almost be more tolerable -- those anti-cable leads are a royal PITA to work with.

-- Nils

Uh, oh, those...., posted on November 4, 2009 at 16:20:20
Mando
Audiophile

Posts: 153
Joined: September 18, 2007
 Nils,
I keep forgetting how much hardware you have going on!
Sorry, I thought that was an egg slicer on the lower shelf.
: )
Try the autoformers at a couple of different taps, even 2x can be cool if you're worried about the sound being too "dry". Wouldn't be without mine.

If I had that many tubes (I only have 20 in my system...)....you must have more...I might get a little frustrated. My power tubes usually last me up to a year (some 10 months, the Genelex Gold Lion KT88's do seem to have a couple more months longevity). But when they go, they go. I usually can tell when I've had one or two flame out, that the rest of the crew is getting long in the tooth.

Right now, my tubes are all singing together, a sweet sweet song. Keep 'em on top, dude, you'll miss 'em otherwise!
Regards,
Mando
RE: Uh, oh, those...., posted on November 4, 2009 at 16:39:11
Neuro
Audiophile

Posts: 625
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Joined: June 29, 2001
 Each Quicksilver V4 monoblock requires four power tubes and two driver tubes (a 12BH7A and an oh-so-elusive-except-through-Quicksilver 12FQ7). 16 Gold Lions = $900 or so from a respectable retailer. Four autoformers would be another $500 minimum on the used market (but two pairs of Zero boxes i.e $1900 would be so much more convenient for my application). Ow.

I'm still tempted to demo the Pass X250 against the Quicksilvers. I doubt I'd push that amp out of Class A 99% of the time.

-- Nils

What do you mean that, posted on November 4, 2009 at 05:11:15
Keith944T
Audiophile

Posts: 127
Location: Western PA
Joined: April 23, 2009
 you run the ribbon full range?

Are you talking about 3.6's?

Did you "disect" the socks to get to choke all three?

How are your autoformers configured (2x, 3x or 4x) on the Rogues?

Was the improvement from the autoformers worth the $$$ ?

If so, would you consider another pair on the low end?

I'm running a class D 1000 w/channel on my low side, with the Rogue M150's on the top as well, therefore all my curiousity driven questions.
Thanks.

I say, I say..., posted on November 4, 2009 at 16:27:05
Mando
Audiophile

Posts: 153
Joined: September 18, 2007
 you run the ribbon full range?

***By using the tweeter bypass (see under tweaks on this site) you essentially bypass the external crossover and it gives you a bit of a nice midrange bump and a smoother top end. Also bypasses the fuse.

Are you talking about 3.6's?
****Yuppers.

Did you "disect" the socks to get to choke all three?

***no sock dissection required. Search the site for RF chokes or "mouser" and you'll find more than you ever want to know. Just insert inline

How are your autoformers configured (2x, 3x or 4x) on the Rogues?

***see post above currently 4x, but I've been other places too. Use your ears ; )


Was the improvement from the autoformers worth the $$$ ?

******absolutely. I bought a nice used set on Audiogon, but they're very fairly priced new.

If so, would you consider another pair on the low end?

****No, you don't typically use them with solid state, just with tubes. But I'm a big fan of an RF choke on the low end.


Hope this is helpful!
Mando
RE: Ribbons + tubes on their way out = miserable, posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:16:49
emsquare
Audiophile

Posts: 88
Location: North Carolina
Joined: June 14, 2008
 You know, that's what keeps me from trying tube amps to begin with. I don't really hear anything special from tube amplification to begin with. But, then again, I haven't lived with them. I also really wonder if it isn't so much the tube sound that people like but the sound of output transformers. I have a suspicion that you can replace that with output trannies designed for MOSFETS. Same secondary winding but do the math for an appropriate MOSFET primary and I suspect you would get a very similar sound. But what do I know...

It seems like the basic problem comes from the voltages that tubes operate at. Lots of electrical pressure. Factor in the heating element heating cycles and there is only so many times you are going to cycle them on and off. Till, eventually, you get pffft... $$$. I'm sure that there's lots of people who get outstanding service from their tube equipment. But when compared to a solid state amplifier that may last your lifetime then it's a cost that needs to be counted.




In search of musical bliss...
That's great, Nils - congrats on finding the problem before you ditched the tube amp!! :-)) nt, posted on November 3, 2009 at 12:05:26
andyr
Audiophile

Posts: 6555
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 .


RE: That's great, Nils - congrats on finding the problem before you ditched the tube amp!! :-)) nt, posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:50:31
Neuro
Audiophile

Posts: 625
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Joined: June 29, 2001
 Let's look at it this way:

Cost of upgrading one pair of Quicksilver V4s to match the other pair: $2000
Replacing power tubes every two years: $800
Replacing driver tubes every four years: $300

2 x Pass Labs X250 on Audiogon: $5000
Sale of my stock Quicksilver V4s on Audiogon: ($3000)
(Optional) Sale of my upgraded Quicksilver V4s on Audiogon: ($4000)

But I dunno. I'm just mildly annoyed at the high-maintenance nature of tubes at the moment, especially with four monoblocks of 'em.

-- Nils
RE: That's great, Nils - congrats on finding the problem before you ditched the tube amp!! :-)) nt, posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:47:05
Neuro
Audiophile

Posts: 625
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Joined: June 29, 2001
 I'm still not 100% convinced I want to stay with tube amps. I'm guessing that the purely resistive 3ohm load presented by the ribbon is going to eat through tubes much faster than typical applications. It also gets awfully warm in my living room during extended listening sessions.

I'd love to demo a pair of Pass Lab X250s for the mids and highs. I know Peter Gunn would approve. :) :)

BING!, posted on November 3, 2009 at 12:03:27
DustyC
Audiophile

Posts: 502
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Same here. I figured something was wrong when I was getting more detail from my Cowon D2 portable. I bi-amp so I tried swapping the bass SS amp on the highs, noticed a difference, so I took the output tubes to a dealer who checked them and advised that they're ok but getting there (need to be replaced). A few weeks later one of the output tubes blew and I got replacement sets for both amps. The improvement was easily audible from the first song.
I've often wondered about the comments when somebody "tube rolls" and pronounces the replacement set (usually a different brand) so much better. If their old set was worn out, anything they replace it with (even the same brand, as I did) is bound to be better.
What really sucks is that this degradation is so slow that it takes awhile before you realize that something's wrong but you can't place your finger on it. (cleaning contacts, switches, etc to get that sound back)

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