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My "Frankenpans" - will they be a monster??? Part 2: photos of Maggies used as subcomponents. ...

58.175.51.30

Posted on October 30, 2009 at 04:32:25
andyr
Audiophile

Posts: 6564
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
Just for your delectation, fellow inmates, here are pics of the Maggies I am using to create my "Frankenpans" ... 2.5s (just the bass panel) and T-IVa mid panels and ribbons. I am aiming to recreate some Maggies which are equivalent to my IIIas ... except with bass and mid panels on separate sheets of mylar (to minimise IM distortion). I will use my existing IIIa active XOs and amps to drive them! :-))

T-IVa mid/ribbon panel with the sock on - note the upgraded internal XO! :-))





T-IVa mid/ribbon panel with the sock off.





T-IVa mid panel, naked (the ribbon is a standard true-ribbon cage).





T-IVa mid panel detail.





2.5, naked.





2.5 bass panel, naked.






Regards,

Andy




RE: My "Frankenpans" - will they be a monster??? Part 2: photos of Maggies used as subcomponents. ..., posted on October 31, 2009 at 06:58:37
Norman M
Audiophile

Posts: 231
Location: Rockland County
Joined: January 3, 2006
It was I who first suggested IIIF where the stands for "Frankenpans". I you proceed I'm not sure if I might challenge you with legal action (beware one of my sons is a lawyer). :-)

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=mug&n=139769&highlight=Frankenpans+Norman+M&r=

Haha - yes, you did ... but so did others. :-)) ..., posted on October 31, 2009 at 15:53:28
andyr
Audiophile

Posts: 6564
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
So your son will have a heard time establishing the claim priority. :-))

As you know, I originally thought of calling them "MG-IIIMs" - where the 'M' stands for 'Mongrel' - but I like the sound of 'Frankenpan' better. Although, of course, Frankenstein was the name of the doctor ... not the monster he created! :-))

Maybe in light of the heated discussion on this thread, I should call them "MG-IIIDs" ... as they are a logical evolution from IIIas!! :-))

Regards,

Andy


3-D's, Maggie 3-D's, nice ring to it. nt, posted on October 31, 2009 at 21:53:33
RickeyM
Audiophile

Posts: 1206
Location: East Coast
Joined: March 15, 2003
.

RE: My "Frankenpans" - will they be a monster??? Part 2: photos of Maggies used as subcomponents. ..., posted on October 31, 2009 at 07:02:09
Norman M
Audiophile

Posts: 231
Location: Rockland County
Joined: January 3, 2006
Oops sorry, should have read "... IIIF where the F stands for Frankenpans".

RE: My "Frankenpans" - will they be a monster??? Part 2: photos of Maggies used as subcomponents. ..., posted on October 30, 2009 at 16:34:26
benie
Audiophile

Posts: 1050
Location: B.C. Canada
Joined: October 24, 2004
great pics, I don't know why, but I love seeing Maggie naked! :O)
Good luck on your project.

It's all making sense now...., posted on October 30, 2009 at 14:07:37
Peter Gunn
Manufacturer

Posts: 2937
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: April 16, 2001
Those of us who live in civilized parts of the world always look upon Oz as this bizarre place where the rule of nature seem to sidestep to the fantastic.

This can most often be seen in your animals - beavers with duck bills, giant mamalian grasshoppers with pouches, strange, odd looking small bears in a perpetual state of narcolepsy etc... I think Godsown is the Isle of Dr Moreau....

So it actually makes perfect sense that you would try to combine the parts of a half dozen magnepans into some strange, exotic creature. In fact it would be odder if you didn't.

I can hardly wait to see how this plays out. :^ )

I hope you give the final thing a better name than Frankenpans however. Not "Oz" enough. How about Maggasnarkin Gallowungers?


It's all about the music...

Haha - good one! :-)) ..., posted on October 30, 2009 at 15:17:30
andyr
Audiophile

Posts: 6564
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
The island of Dr. Moreau it may very well be but I can't agree with your implication that the USofA is a civilised place ... and Oz is not! :-))

Fer instance - nowhere in Oz is Darwin's theory of evolution banned from being taught in schools. :-))

As to an appropriate name for these beasts - I wouldn't dare use something like you suggested ... for fear of having a court order slapped on me by some aboriginal activists, for appropriating their culture. :-)) A more Aussie-inspired name would certainly be "Brucenpans" ... but I think most of the Maggie community wouldn't get the inference. :-)) Whereas I would suggest the vast majority of Anglo Saxons in Amerika - whether they be WASPs or WASCas - have heard of Dr. Frankenstein and his creation. :-))

I'm afraid you will have to wait, to see how this plays out. :-)) I now have to get my "wood man" to make up 2 frames each side (so the mid/ribbon frame is disconnected from the bass frame) and you know how slack wood men are! :-))

Regards from downunder,

Andy


Brucenpans - I'm A over T!, posted on October 30, 2009 at 20:43:54
wazoo
Audiophile

Posts: 1889
Location: Middle GA
Joined: December 6, 2006
By jingoes, they might be the bee's knees when you're done. I just hope you're well chuffed.

How about Burlopans? You're certainly having a go at something a bit difficult.

Regards from upover,
Kevin


"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ

Burlopans??? ... you've lost me!! :-)) nt, posted on October 30, 2009 at 23:49:12
andyr
Audiophile

Posts: 6564
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
.


it was late and I was reaching, posted on October 31, 2009 at 06:02:47
wazoo
Audiophile

Posts: 1889
Location: Middle GA
Joined: December 6, 2006
Have a burl. Doesn't that mean to try something difficult and, perhaps, a little unusual? I was also thinking Raptopans - for your being enraptured by them (we can only hope). Honestly though, Brucenpans is better than either of my suggestions - the word just has a tricky flow to it.

To be honest, I was also a bit distracted by PG's comment on Darwin. I tried to let it go, but I feel an overwhelming desire to post a response. Uh oh, here I go again!


"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ

Mmmm, yes I think you're right but that term belongs to a generation that's even older than me!! :-)) ..., posted on October 31, 2009 at 15:58:58
andyr
Audiophile

Posts: 6564
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
So I'm not too familiar with it.

And as I said in another response, I'm seriously thinking I might embrace the appellation "IIIDs" instead of "IIIFs". :-))

Regards,

Andy


RE: Haha - good one! :-)) ..., posted on October 30, 2009 at 20:20:09
Peter Gunn
Manufacturer

Posts: 2937
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: April 16, 2001
My goodness.

I'm so sorry about all the things we invented for you - the lightbulb, the phonograph, latex paint, breakfast cereal, the airplane, crayons, nylon, escalators, blue jeans and zippers, plasma televisions, artificial hearts, sewing machines.....

....and magnepans too.

Yes, were just the backwater swamp of amerikkka. We marry 'r cuzzins an weez all stoopid.

At least my hound dog doesn't have a duck bill or a pouch....

Your darwin comment makes no sense either. Liberals run our schools, they won't allow anything but that in there. In any case discoveries we are making at the cellular level will have darwins theory in the garbage can within 10 years, bank on it.

In any case don't be a sissy, call your creation what you want. I said gallowungers but I like gallowumpers more. Probably what they'll sound like too with all those drivers. I really can't wait to see how it comes out.

Good luck Bruce!

:^ )


It's all about the music...

I just can't ignore this one - I tried, posted on October 31, 2009 at 06:23:04
wazoo
Audiophile

Posts: 1889
Location: Middle GA
Joined: December 6, 2006
When you state that Darwin's theory will be in the garbage in ten years because of discoveries we're making at the cellular level, I have to retort with, "Rubbish." Michael Behe wrote a wonderful book entitled Darwin's Black Box which attempts to refute evolution from a biochemical perspective. Although it is a fascinating book and quite enlightening (the elucidation on blood clotting is enough to make the book recommended reading), it fails to challenge evolution because it takes the theory into a realm it doesn't belong - as an explanation for the origin of life. Evolution (and the term is rather a bad one (literally - unfolding) - stars evolve, phyletics is quirky and unpredictable) is the theory of how organisms change through time. Natural selection is not a theory which explains how life began - just about how living things change.

Darwin's theory has been revised and extended. It has not and never will be refuted. It is, in fact, a fact - a formidably proven fact.

Perhaps it will interest you to know what a quirky bit of chance led to Darwin's being in the Galapagos in the first place. Many assume, and I suppose the apocryphal tales support the notion, that Darwin was on board the HMS Beagle as its naturalist. Actually, the ship's surgeon (Robert McKormick) was listed as the naturalist. Darwin was nothing more than a supernumerary passenger - Captain Fitzroy's companion (without whom the captain would dine alone (and spend the majority the rest of his time that way)). The Beagle’s previous skipper had shot himself – dead. Fitzroy was worried that he might meet the same fate – after all, his own uncle, the Viscount Castlereagh, slit his own throat eight years before the young captain set sail at the tender age of twenty-six.

The five years Darwin spent at the table with Fitzroy, a devout Christian who steadfastly believed in creationism (in its Biblical literalism), most certainly had an impact on Darwin and likely helped shape his theory of natural selection. The good captain also believed in the benevolence of slavery (a rather curious, yet common viewpoint for Christians at the time – what could be more antithetical to the teachings of Jesus?) – a point on which he and Darwin disagreed, and Charles actually had the temerity to openly question Fitzroy’s reasoning. The conflict resulted in Darwin’s dismissal from the captain’s table until Fitzroy backed down and sent a formal request for Darwin to rejoin him. One can only imagine the discussions between the two over the course of the five year journey.

So, the contingent quirks of history seated Darwin at the captain’s table on the HMS Beagle. Darwin’s aristocratic position was a key element in Fitzroy’s choosing him as a companion on the journey. That social position also afforded Darwin the ability to hire locals to collect specimens for him – a luxury the ship’s surgeon did not enjoy. Darwin had the captain’s ear more than anyone else on the ship which gave him another advantage. Is it any surprise that Darwin usurped Dr. McKormick’s role as the ship’s naturalist? Finally, the mealtime discussions Darwin had with Fitzroy must have cemented his view for a mechanistic explanation for speciation as much as the finches and tortoises he collected.

It just seems fitting that a theory about the contingencies of nature should rest upon so many contingencies. The catalog of proofs which has accrued in its wake is enormous. I doubt there is a more absolutely proven theory in science than natural selection. Even Pope John Paul II embraced the theory of evolution and declared it consistent with Catholicism. I don’t know what cellular discoveries to which you alluded will lead to the disproof of Darwin’s grand theory, and I suspect you are grossly misinformed on this point.

----

BTW what's wrong with marvellous local adaptations to a unique environment? The animals which you seem to regard as weird and backwards are perfectly suited to the environment which shaped them - just a little more evidence that Darwin's theory isn't going to end up in the garbage!


"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ

You haven't tried in a long time, posted on October 31, 2009 at 08:16:11
Peter Gunn
Manufacturer

Posts: 2937
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: April 16, 2001
Honestly, you either REALLY need to get laid more than any man I ever met, or you desperately need to cultivate a sense of humor.

Redwood and I "take the piss" out of each other all the time. It's our form of recreation. How long is it going to take you to comprehend that?

Honestly waz, you used to be far more lighthearted but anymore you're the self appointed avenger nobody asked for, and you chime in with mile long posts lecturing about everything, and then you get all morose about it.

I was yanking his chain, I don't hate platypuses, OK? When Redwood joked about wetbacks at the maggie plant last year everyone jumped on him about that. NOBODY has a sense of humor anymore.

I like you a lot. I hope you can find a more even keel in future. When a thread turns to BS, that's all it is, good natured BS. Let it go.


It's all about the music...

my sense of humor is in tact - this doesn't read like a joke, posted on October 31, 2009 at 08:47:33
wazoo
Audiophile

Posts: 1889
Location: Middle GA
Joined: December 6, 2006
"In any case discoveries we are making at the cellular level will have darwins theory in the garbage can within 10 years, bank on it."

That reads like a statement - an incorrect one; bank on it. Sorry if I tend to get a little verbose in response to such comments. I also apologize if I misread lighthearted BS for a serious claim, but that sounded pretty serious to me (I agree with the BS part). Perhaps my understanding of the language is waning in my advancing years.

It was also not a lecture; it was a retort. I could have easily written a ten thousand word essay and barely scratched the surface of the topic. I know that it is far off topic for this forum, but your comment about Darwin's theory hit a nerve. You are free to believe what you wish, but once that belief gets expressed in a forum such as this, why whould someone with an opposite viewpoint (and the ponderous weight of supporting evidence) not chime in (whether or not anyone asked for it)?

Furthermore, I don't 'lecture' about everything, but there are a few topics about which I feel fairly qualified to debate - and this is one. I'm also sorry if nobody finds some of the lesser known details of history interesting. Education should not stop with graduation; it should continue throughout one's life - I may be crazy, but I actually find the reading of serious books entertaining.


"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ

Petey, you're right about humor , BUT, posted on October 31, 2009 at 08:37:21
Keith944T
Audiophile

Posts: 129
Location: Western PA
Joined: April 23, 2009
I can understand Waz's consternation.
There are a cults of religous fanatics trying undo science, not just as we believe it to be, but as we actually use it.
Some of them think the Earth is only 4000 years old, heck I'm almost that old myself!

Re. Darwin ... it's called "taking the piss" - a favourite Aussie pastime! :-)) nt, posted on October 30, 2009 at 20:38:42
andyr
Audiophile

Posts: 6564
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
.


RE: Haha - good one! :-)) ..., posted on October 30, 2009 at 19:10:46
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
hey andyr,

I´m quite sure there are a few of us fanatics, that envy your approach to your project.
this is really something of a journey.
very good on you !!

to get the most of it, when assembled, you´re aware that "digital" crossover is almost mandatory to get it all tuned in ??
-at which point I´ll be VERY happy to get involved further .....as this is where maggie tuning is really tough and somehow extremely rewarding !

go for it !

Thank you ... a digital (computer) XO is a subsequent step! :-)) This first step is to ..., posted on October 30, 2009 at 19:16:53
andyr
Audiophile

Posts: 6564
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
create something that is the same as what I have already got ... except the mid panel is on a separate sheet of mylar to the bass panel. Just to see if a reduction in IM distortion can actually be heard. :-))

Regards,

Andy


Where's the beef? - Tympani bass panels, posted on October 31, 2009 at 07:56:42
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 101
Joined: July 6, 2002
Andy

What about the Tympani Bass panels? Didn't they come with the speaker?

You can get substantially more bass out of them than the II series bass panels.

If the mylar or wire on the bass panels is damaged but intact on at least two of them, you can remove the damaged mylar and wire and sandwich the drivers into a push pull driver, just mind that you put enough space between them.

The weak point in the original Tympani IV was the midrange, which is slightly thick by modern standards and compared to stats. I replaced mine with an array of BG Neo 8 drivers - which are push pull and have far less distortion and can be equalized with a first order low pass at 1.5-2khz - yielding an acoustic first order LP at about 5-6 khz . The BG 50 inch radia driver fits the slot for the Tympani IV midrange and has the same impedance and only slightly higher sensitivity. If you are building a fresh frame, then the 72 inch Radia driver comes to mind. These don't require equalization and can be crossed over to the tweeter at 4-6 khz, where their dispersion (like that of the Neo 8) starts getting limited.

Happy speaker building.

Actually, no - the T-IVa bass panels were *not* part of the deal! :-)) ..., posted on October 31, 2009 at 15:44:06
andyr
Audiophile

Posts: 6564
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
The only reason I was able to acquire the pair of T-IVa mid/ribbon panels was that these weren't being used, as the owner is using the 2 bass panels per side to augment his 3.5s. (Now that must be a fantastic system! :-)) )

But anyway, all I'm trying to do with this experiment is confirm my thoughts that having the mid panel on a separate sheet of mylar to the bass panel (like the 20.1 does - and maybe the 20), reduces IMD and so delivers more resolution. The combination of drivers that I've chosen gives me drivers that are, basically, identical to my IIIa drivers ... but the mid is separate to the bass.

Yes, I'd love more bass ... but I suspect 2 additional panels each side would result in divorce! :-))

Regards,

Andy


IM distortion, posted on October 31, 2009 at 06:08:30
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
hey andyr,

if the distortion of two drivers, covering the same frequencies by a low crossover slope is seen as intermodulation distortion, I can guarantee it can be heard !
the steeper the slope, the less distortion. phase issues apart.
-audible fact !

Nono - what I'm referring to is ..., posted on October 31, 2009 at 15:32:26
andyr
Audiophile

Posts: 6564
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
the mid panel being "shaken" by the bass panel because they're on the same sheet of mylar, and therefore the bass panel is modulating the mid panel's output. I guess this might be called "Doppler-induced IMD".

Whereas the phenomenon you are referring to is "crossover-induced IMD".

Regards,

Andy


RE: Nono - what I'm referring to is ..., posted on October 31, 2009 at 21:08:58
play-mate
Audiophile

Posts: 391
Joined: November 21, 2008
I´m absolutely with you on this one !!
-that would be one of the main reasons to develop your frankenpans anyway.

just wanted to state that steep slopes DO sound less distorted.
-if they sound more natural in any specific setup, is a very different matter......




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