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Looking to integrate units for midbass system

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Posted on December 2, 2016 at 17:32:29
NoMoreDisasters
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Joined: December 2, 2016
Hi all, first post. I have done live sound on a very part time basis in the near past, more frequently ten years ago, and have considered starting up again. I am posting here instead of on a live sound forum because I hope to interact with designers and builders who have thought these things through a million times, not just repeated what the flavor of the day is a million times.

More recently I have used just two of my tops - Community RS220/SLS920 with EAW SB150z subs (Eighteen Sound 15LW1401 15" - a nice single 15" bass reflex driver unit).

The tops are horn-loaded and padded down about 9dB IIRC just to match the subs. :)

Everything so far is bought and paid for, which is why I am trying to accommodate them.

I have an idea for a larger, all horn-loaded 5-way system, using these tops.

My tops are passive 3-way, they are rated to go down to 150Hz, can comfortably go down to 200-ish, but that crossover point could be moved up a bit if the midbass unit sounds any better. They are nominally about 107dB 1W/1M, but about 103 dB 1W/1M near crossover region.

The subs I will use will be horn-loaded and crossed over at 80 Hz. They are yet to be determined, but likely will be a Danley unit.

So that leaves a nice big opening for a woofer/midbass horn. I am thinking, to be safe, something between 80Hz and 300Hz. That would give me some room to play around with crossing over with the tops.

I would like to come a bit closer to matching the sensitivities beween the tops and the midbass/woofers (around 103dB 1W/1M or greater).

I want something that at least looks somewhat like a conventional speaker. I have looked around and found a DDS midbass horn flare. No idea on pricing, all I got was a busy signal today. There are a few options, one of them being the DVB 15N (70Hx 70V / 22"H x 22"W x 15"D / 15" octagonal entry):
Sensitivity 103.1dB SPL
Nominal Gain +4.1dB
Frequency Range 30Hz - 1kHz
Frequency Response 60Hz - 800Hz
Dispersion 70H x 70V

So I am just in the beginning stages. I am thinking of purchasing a driver like the Eminence Kappalite 3015, then build a suitable volume sealed enclosure which could hold both the horn flare and driver, while keeping it about the size and weight of an EAW SB150z.

In the past I used an old pair of EAW LA400 subs for this purpose, which are folded horns that can produce sound in the midbass region, though the manufacturer doesn't condone it. I got rid of them because I thought they were too large to occasionally use just for that. Also in the past I used to use a pair of Servodrive BT-7 cabs. That was a configuration I was only able to use in a limited number of engagements though.

 

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RE: Looking to integrate units for midbass system, posted on December 3, 2016 at 10:07:49
NoMoreDisasters
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Joined: December 2, 2016
P.S. As I answer my own question I also see Ramsdell audio as an option.

 

RE: Looking to integrate units for midbass system, posted on December 3, 2016 at 10:20:24
Coner
Audiophile

Posts: 1821
Location: S.W. Washington state, USA
Joined: November 17, 2001
LaScala type horn works well in that freg. range. Easy to build.
K33 woofer almost required for smooth response.

 

RE: Looking to integrate units for midbass system, posted on December 3, 2016 at 10:35:01
NoMoreDisasters
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Joined: December 2, 2016
Hi Coner, I was playing around with my post a bit as the end got cut off. Is the K33 woofer similar to the Kappalite 3015? I have seen this recommended in other places. I see the K33 mentioned on the Klipsch forum, it is said to be similar to the current Kappa 15C.

 

RE: Looking to integrate units for midbass system, posted on December 3, 2016 at 16:24:47
Coner
Audiophile

Posts: 1821
Location: S.W. Washington state, USA
Joined: November 17, 2001
I don't know. I would not risk knock offs for home use. I'd
go ahead and get the Crites units. There's T/S parameters online
somewhere, you can compare. One spec. is 4 ohms. The horn works
great with the K33.

 

RE: Looking to integrate units for midbass system, posted on December 5, 2016 at 09:47:38
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 6856
Joined: July 4, 2002
What is the rest of the speaker system this mid bass unit will tie into?
It wasn't clear what parts you will be using.
Boy the BT-7 is an old subwoofer, i designed that close to 30 years ago.
Best,
Tom Danley

 

RE: Looking to integrate units for midbass system, posted on December 10, 2016 at 09:54:30
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 257
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
Well, a good horn is a good horn forever.

 

RE: Looking to integrate units for midbass system, posted on December 10, 2016 at 17:17:52
NoMoreDisasters
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Joined: December 2, 2016
Agree 100%. I once saw a Youtube video of the recovered Titanic horn being sounded once more with a bottle of CO2, in front of a crowd of people, before being put into a museum.

 

RE: Looking to integrate units for midbass system, posted on December 10, 2016 at 19:11:30
NoMoreDisasters
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Joined: December 2, 2016
Hi Tom, thanks for the post.

I sold off the two BT-7 cabs almost ten years ago (strictly for parts supply reasons, although nothing ever went wrong with them). They were a dream to use. I still wish I had them.

I got them second hand and the only thing I ever did to them was put new foam tape along where the module sealed with the horn. That seemed to improve the upper bass response.

I eventually sold them off to a guy who worked with a children's camp. He had amassed a substantial collection of BT-7s, and was looking for more backup units to have on hand. It seemed like a good place for them to end up.

Over the years I really scaled things down. For now my system is just a pile of passively crossed over Community RS220 mains: (two 8" lower mids, a 2" compression upper mid, and a 1" compression tweeter - all horn loaded). For subs I have a pile of small 15" front-loaded cabs (EAW SB150). I originally got these for smaller indoor gigs.

I was just thinking about what could be used or built to augment the midbass for bigger gigs. (This in addition to newer large subs yet to be determined). Perhaps for now just use these single 15" subs at ground plane??

This is in lieu of my mains speakers having any actual bass capability. The payoff though is that these mains are light enough for me to lift onto a normal crank-up tripod.

So for now there are really two systems, using the same tops:

------

SYSTEM 1: current small system (indoors spaces only):

(2) RS220 - one per side, free space on tripods
150Hz-up

(2) SB150 - ground plane
33Hz-300Hz (newer version says 34Hz to 145Hz, driver specs go higher though)

version 1: RCF L15P200AK

http://www.rcf.it/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=cf37f69a-5542-4d54-97a3-cd1ac2b1b661&groupId=216492

version 2: Eighteensound 15LW1401

http://www.eighteensound.it/DesktopModules/GeminoAEB/API/CreatePDF/CreatePDF?UrlSource=http://www.eighteensound.com/PrintProd/eid/3359&FileName=15LW1401&UrlFooter=http://www.eighteensound.com/print_footer.html

Ashly Protea crossover point: (used for both 15" subs and tops): 121 Hz 24dB BW

---------------------------

SYSTEM 2: prior "large" system

(4) RS220 - two per side, free space on tripods
150Hz-up

(2) LA400 - one per side, ground plane
45Hz-200Hz

(2) Servodrive BT-7 - together in front of stage, ground plane, mono aux
Recommended Crossover Slope:
>18 dB/oct < 125 Hz

DBX Driverack Crossover points:

LF 19.7HZ BW24 (aux channel, mono)
114HZ BW24

MB 81.1 HZ BW24
182 HZ BW24

TOP 136 HZ BW12

This wasn't a textbook or rider-friendly setup by any means, it was just me being hired to do sound for some friends in a parking lot car show concert. We had 36" tall stages. I took some liberties with frequency overlap by ear. The BT-7 subs in particular, since they were on a dedicated sub channel. They said it was the best they ever sounded.

I only needed to use the horn-loaded midbass channel very sparingly, so that is why I think I might be able to use conventional front-loaded subs at ground plane to do the same thing. Albeit at a higher level, but then again augmented by ground plane.

---------------------------

SYSTEM 3: theoretical revised "large" system:

(4) RS220 - two per side, free space on tripods
150Hz-up

(2-4) SB150 as needed, ground plane
33Hz-300Hz

(2) successors to BT-7, ground plane

Crossover points here would probably be similar to previous "large" system, but with different delay, levels.

This is just in theoretical stages for me. It would allow me to use what I already have. As for my question here, I just don't know how much this makes sense for me to be using front-loaded 15" subs in vented cabinets for midbass, to integrate big efficient horn-loaded subs with efficient horn-loaded tops.

Thanks

 

RE: Looking to integrate units for midbass system, posted on December 22, 2016 at 09:45:13
zobsky
Audiophile

Posts: 566
Location: dallas, tx
Joined: June 11, 2005
In a lascala / belle cabinet, kappa 15c will roll off earlier in the bass compared to K33 (or the crites replacement) but will extend a bit higher . I would know (I've compared both the crites cast frame vs the kappa 15c).

 

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