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Bass horns: Folded or front-loaded scoop?

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Posted on August 23, 2012 at 10:34:28
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
Hi Gang:

More questions from a high-efficiency newb here. I have used horn loaded stuff in PA applications (as an amateur) but never in a home environment. I have measurement equipment/skills.

So: I do have horn loaded mids but they are monsterous and I am not sure the disperson is suitable for home use. I would need to check the low frequency cut off as well. I also have larger 15" folded horn bass bins (single 15", sealed enclosure, folded horn, not front loaded) for which I would also want to check the LF cutoff but going on thumbrules I think I could get 35 or 40Hz out of these things. The Electrovoice DL15X drivers do call for this smaller sealed box enclosure, but they have quite a high f3 in such a box and relative low xmax means lots of EQ to get them to reach down may or may not be an option.

You fellas using folded horns... how big are your horns, what drivers are you using, are you EQing them and how much bass do you get? Are you using subs are well? Or are you using front loaded/scoop types?

THanks for any pointers here.

Cheers,
Presto

 

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RE: Bass horns: Folded or front-loaded scoop?, posted on August 25, 2012 at 18:47:14
Pro Sound Guy


 
Honestly forget the front loaded scoop

Consider a Bill Fitzmaurice design

Bang for your buck really..google is your friend in this case


 

RE: Bass horns: Folded or front-loaded scoop?, posted on August 27, 2012 at 08:52:28
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
THANKS!

I saw that site a while back and forgot to bookmark it!

Yeah, that guy has some really cool designs there for what, $15? And he's going up against the big names in pro sound too...

Thanks for the link!!

CHeers,
Presto

 

Front-loaded no scoop..., posted on August 24, 2012 at 19:59:59
eso
Manufacturer

Posts: 7842
Location: Long Beach, CA, USA
Joined: March 15, 2001

Bad picture of an ugly system, but it works well.

The 3-way mains(65-500Hz folded midbass horn w/JBL D-130, 500-10k Hz 290Hz Tractrix horn w/ JBL 2440 driver, >10K Hz Fostex T925a tweeter) sitting inside the mouths of the 30Hz Folded Bass Horns made from cement with JBL K151 Drivers. The bass horns are quite flat to 30Hz, and still have significant output at 20Hz.

The bass horn mouths expand to compensate for the volume of the mains to help keep the time alignment within 5-6ms <60Hz, which for all practical purposes is not audible to the human ear.

Big Bass Horns are wonderful, and I heartily recommend running the bass in stereo for the added gain of the twin horns, but also for the overall stereo coherency.

eso
They were a carnival of American decay on parade, and they had no idea of the atrocity they had inflicted upon themselves." Henry Chinaski

 

RE: Front-loaded no scoop..., posted on August 27, 2012 at 08:51:08
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
Eso:

Thanks for sharing that unique system. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - with horn systems it's function over form. When I was a kid I thought horn type speakers looked awesome and industrial. I bought a massive stack of horn loaded cabinets and never did get my "DJ/sound" business going but I kept the cabinets!

How did you form that concrete? That is just amazing!

ALso, did you make those tractix horns? I can go through the process of making them from MDF layers but it is very time consuming, messy and not the most environmentally friendly solution (lots of waste materials).

Thanks again!

 

RE: Bass horns: Folded or front-loaded scoop?, posted on August 24, 2012 at 13:14:42
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
I have EVM 15 L's in Peavey FH-'1, which model better than LaScalas. I have about a +7 db EQ at 63 hz...........I cross to a Tapped Horn Sub with a LAB 12 driver at 60 Hz............they go down to 16 Hz. with room gain..amazing.

Your woofers are almost the same as mine, so I wouldn't try to get to 40 Hz. because the excursion goes nuts below 60 Hz. since they resonate at about that frequency

For my listening of about 80-83 db at my sweet spot, they never more than about 100 Milliwatts, so it's not a big deal as far as power handling.

Just keep in mind the IM distortion will go up if yo try to EQ low.....so get or build a good sub.

 

RE: Bass horns: Folded or front-loaded scoop?, posted on August 23, 2012 at 19:07:33



I use front and BLH in bass horns but I do design the loudspeaker as a whole making stuff work just because its about I understand but its hard to give advise on cobbling together a horn. Like I said bellow I would shit can the CD horn use a radial for the JBL, passive network, buy a tweeter, dont know your budget. I would suggest a midbass horn and they are the weakest link in most horn systems thus why most just use a 12-15in in box. Might help if you give some info on your midbass. Monstrous isn't such a bad thing, set radial on midbass, tweeter on midrange, use a passive network,biamp your bass scoops below midbass cutoff. Dont over think things, build it, listen, measure, tweak. Dont sweat the small stuff.

 

RE: Bass horns: Folded or front-loaded scoop?, posted on August 24, 2012 at 11:10:11
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
Kloss:

Thanks for the candid advice.

The 2441 has great potential I think, from maybe 500 or 600 to 4 or 5k as a mid horn. I really want to build a rectangular or salad bowl tractrix and get rid of the CD horn as you suggest. I do have 2404H tweeters that I could add to the 2441/horn combo but they just seem very "PA" to me and little like the Fostex and similar super-tweeters you commonly see with Edgar horns.

The trouble here I think comes into the type of bass bin chosen. A folded horn might not be best for mating up with a 2441 @500Hz. A front loaded scoop might work just fine. With a folded bass horn, I would consider 4-way with a folded horn bass bin (which I have), a front loaded mid bin (which I have) the 2441 as an upper/mid mid horn and a tweet. The trouble is, getting into a 4 way that only goes down to 80Hz is plain silly in a home environment. Going 5-way for the lowest two octaves in just far too many cabinets. (Do they even GO five way any more in large productions? I thought the line arrays were three way with some low frequency reinforcement on the ground...)

The midbass drivers are EVM12S
The bass drivers are EV DL15X

The EVM 12S could work in front loaded or horn applications. Lower limit in front loading is about 80Hz. Lower limit in horn is obviously what the horn lower limit it.

I think I want to measure the midbass horns and bass bins I have here and then decide. Right now, I don't think I am giving you guys enough information.

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: Bass horns: Folded or front-loaded scoop?, posted on August 24, 2012 at 15:08:12
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
I do TH sub from 15-60.....mono, then 60-320 in FH-1 cab with EVM 15 L crossed and EQ'd with Behringer. Single capacitor on Klipsch 1133 driver/K402 Horn....at 320-5Khz (natural rolloff) then single capacitor on B&C DE-250 with QSC waveguide from parts express, best tweeter ever.....had the JBL's 2404, etc.

So it's 3-way with sub and lacks no midbass at all. The only improment I think I can make is a straight axis horn for from 60-300 instead of folded, which would require less EQ to be flat and smooth.

No matter what, it's what below 300 Hz. in a real room that give you trouble, so you may as well do some PEQ and careful treatments and placements.

 

RE: Bass horns: Folded or front-loaded scoop?, posted on August 27, 2012 at 08:47:56
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
Claude:

Thanks for your input. I can spend a weekend checking out some of the 2nd hand stores for some old FH-1 cabinets! I think I might also measure the folded horns I have now, but I don't think they'll go low enough. Myself, I am not sold on the 24XX drivers for home use either. There are quality 1" compression drivers that will reach out to 20k, as you have suggested.

Thanks again.

CHeers,
Presto

 

RE: Bass horns: Folded or front-loaded scoop?, posted on August 23, 2012 at 14:07:10
moray james
Manufacturer

Posts: 1599
Location: Calgary on the Bow
Joined: May 19, 2002



not counting the sub you should consider two way a minimum, and four way a maximum. Straight horns are the way to go I am told down to about 80 Hz if you have the room if not a LaScala or Belle ir Peavey SP1 style horn will run from 80 Hz to 450.Hz with only one 90 degree bend in a compact enclosure. Another possible option would be a synergy style horn which would be about 28" square at the mouth and at least as deep which could be a three way and get you down to 50 Hz on its own.
I am sure that those with more experience than I will chime in here. Good luck have fun. Best regards Moray James.
moray james

 

RE: Bass horns: Folded or front-loaded scoop?, posted on August 24, 2012 at 11:13:39
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
Thanks!

28" x 28" gives you about 50Hz hey? I think the horns I have now have a mouth about 24" x 18". These are "bass" horns for live band applications from days gone by. I think they're probably only good to about 80. When I tried them out, I had low x-max high efficiency drivers installed. At low volumes (hi-fi type distances) I could smirk the eq at the bottom end and get pretty nice low bass out of them. To do this at higher levels would obviously use up the drivers excursion limits in a hurry.

Anyways, thanks for the ideas!

Cheers,
Presto

 

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