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Where's the BEEF... I mean BASS - Found it! Full-Range Driver Folks...

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Posted on January 7, 2008 at 10:46:09
VFR800A
Audiophile

Posts: 261
Location: SE
Joined: February 21, 2005
Remember that Wendy's commercial with the three old ladies staring at the big fluffy bun with no meat? Funny stuff...

On to the point. First off, my FE166ES-Rs in John K's BLHs have been and continue to be just wonderful. That being said, as we all know, most small fullrangers struggle with the bass below a certain point. I tried every speaker position I could think of just to get a little bit more and encountered varying levels of success in the corners and with long-wall placement. But, corners have their issues and the long-wall placement option, while revealing great bass (room gain and a bit of boom) and soundstage width, flattened the soundstage depth.

So, I figured I'd try one more search on the internet for another option, since I'm not a fan of subwoofers and that defeats the whole full-range purpose, and found this:

http://www.nsmaudio.com/brochures/stereosetup.html.

The above is sort of counter to most everything that I've read so far. I placed my speakers exactly mid-way into my room (front-quarter not an option) and sat near but not up against the back wall. I was basically floored. I'm not going to expand on what might just be a room anomaly for my specific situation, but those of you with full-rangers might want to (MUST) try this, even if it means just temporarily moving around some furniture. The quality of bass and apparent quanity (given the drivers) is just short of spectacular.

Some tips from my experience. Seating position should be at least the distance between the two speakers. Try not to get too close to the side walls because it screws with upper bass, lower midrange. Use male vocal to get the right distance from sidewalls. Experiment with toe-in. I've got 'em a bit off axis and crossed behind my head.

I'm nearfield and about 7.5' away from my speakers and what's cool is that I have about 7' behind the speakers (awesome soundstage depth) with very nice, clean and articulate bass.

I don't know how this would work in a large room with front-quarter placement but pleae let us know. I'll get around to it myself when I'm in the mood to move the bed out of the bedroom...

I was even so bold as to drop the needle down on Queen's The Game (Dragon Attack). Much, much better (but, this cut would rip a whole in my Altecs if turned up considerably). And, the bass playing on Beyond the Missouri Sky (Short Stories) by Charlie Haden and Pat Metheny (Verve) is just mesmerizing.

Jim

 

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RE: Where's the BEEF... I mean BASS - Found it! Full-Range Driver Folks..., posted on January 7, 2008 at 11:55:26
Bass does get stronger if you sit closer to back wall you might want to try a difusser behind seating position could improve on image. Glad you found the right balance of sound sometimes it pays to try something diferant. Your fe166esr is a wonderful transducer did you hear Randys fe166esrs? Wish I kept a pair. And whens the full review;)

 

RE: Where's the BEEF... I mean BASS - Found it! Full-Range Driver Folks..., posted on January 7, 2008 at 12:25:10
freddyi
Audiophile

Posts: 3852
Joined: December 6, 2001
ot - the new Karlson-forum needs young blood and theres no "M" restrictions so you're invited to show off your 126 coupler and maybe give a few hints for those who would like to build something K-wise with that driver - - external dims might be enough :^)

K-FORUM

 

You mean I wont be called a shill!!, posted on January 7, 2008 at 12:29:43
Wow dont know If I could deal with the niceness of it all. I thrive on the abuse of the sylum;) But I might drop in and post a bit if someones interested in the little K.

 

Review...?, posted on January 7, 2008 at 13:43:52
VFR800A
Audiophile

Posts: 261
Location: SE
Joined: February 21, 2005
Yeah, I know, I owe you a review. Feels like I've been around the block with these speakers and it's all been good. You see, I heard different things at different locations and I've been obsessed about finding the best location that capitalized on all of the strengths that I heard throughout the process. Not that they're hard to place from an imaging/soundstage perspective (simple - anywhere), but getting the bass right (balanced and clean for what they're capable of) was key for me. Once I found it, everything just "snapped" in. I don't feel the need for the ribbons at this point either. Randy will be impressed for sure. You know, you think you have it and then you make a slight change and things improve. You do that over and over again and you build a knowledge base and then you know when something significant happens, and this move was it. Best move by far.

Randy's new speakers look great. Haven't heard yet though. How's the loaner? It sure looks great and sounded good too.

So, the review. There are some tough critics around here. So, I'm trying to hear if I can hear some things folks complain about (i.e., intermodulation distortion, whizzer cone/ragged highs, shout, phase issues, etc.). So far I don't hear anything but maybe my ears just aren't sophisticated enough. I can say that the 0.98 cent tweak hurt this driver and dulled the highs. I don't dare try a phase plug. At this point in time, they're "perfect" for what I listen to and they play plenty loud with very, very good bass.

Maybe I should find someone local with more experience and better ears than mine to come over for a listen. But, I'm rapidly gaining experience listening to gear. And, Randy's always an excellent source for amps and such. So, I get to listen to them all in my room. Recently heard the Emerald Physics CS-2s too. Very nice speaker. Lots of electronics in the path with large SS requirements.

Learning much working with the Altecs too.

But, your BLHs are still the king when it comes to my tastes (we're not worthy...bow, bow...).

FYI - I have some treatment behind my head, which is about 1' to 1.5' away from the wall, but diffusion might be better. Or, maybe I should just open the door (right behind my head) and see what happens. Curious how that might affect bass and imaging.

Jim

 

Just for the sake of comparing notes..., posted on January 7, 2008 at 14:13:07
Tom
Audiophile

Posts: 2081
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 27, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
March 16, 2002
I have the same drivers, but in the Nagaoka BLH boxes, in a room of similar size (approx. 10'6"x12'6").

Just this weekend, I re-arranged my rig along the "long" wall (also re-painted the walls and re-shelved-and-cabineted my CDs and LPs, but that's another story).

Room size--and media storage requirements--rule out the mid-wall placement in my case. My speakers are more-or-less in the corners and aimed at my ears in the sweet spot (which is about 18" from the back wall). So that puts the drivers 9' apart and around 7' from my ears. I really like the slightly wider presentation this arrangement affords. And the soundstage does seem "deeper" as well (although this may very well be due to the fact that I moved my wall-mount CD racks from between the speakers to a side wall).

As for bass--your original topic--I do use a powered subwoofer (12" driver/2.5 cu.ft. sealed-box placed just left of the right-channel speaker). I run it very gently and cross it over at 70Hz/12dB/octave to just give a hint of foundation when needed (as in sustained lower register bass guitar or organ). But with either the aforementioned long-wall or short-wall setup, the bass has always been very satisfying, even WITHOUT the subwoofer. (I once inadvertantly went a few weeks without the sub, having forgotten to connect it to my preamp in one of my frantic interconnect swaps!)

That far-out Michael Green guy has been scoffed at here in these forums and no doubt elsewhere, but his Corner Tunes and Room Tunes are essential--at least in my room. My long wall vaults from 8' to 11', and, without the MG products, this room is a sonic nightmare. His products absolutely KILL slap-echo in my case. They just work, and they're relatively cheap.


 

RE: Where's the BEEF... I mean BASS - Found it! Full-Range Driver Folks..., posted on January 8, 2008 at 04:18:35
paba
Audiophile

Posts: 288
Location: Montreal, Canada
Joined: July 2, 2003
Thanks for sharing both your impressions of this driver and the speaker placement suggestion.

Myself, my 166esr as still waiting in their boxes (my DIY projects take forever) but I think I have finally settled on building Hiro cabinets for them, comments on the web over these consistantly compliment the bass respononse:

cheers
paba

 

Nice!, posted on January 8, 2008 at 06:07:46
VFR800A
Audiophile

Posts: 261
Location: SE
Joined: February 21, 2005
Wow, looks like a nice cabinet! Be sure to let us know how it sounds. Too bad you're not more local, we could do a side-by-side comparison. I've actually been meaning to do that with someone local here who has cabinets based upon the plans that come with the drivers. I did hear them and left with the impression that they were "lean" sounding in comparison to my John K. cabinets. My cabinets are closer in size to the stock FE206ES-R plans with some modifications.

Here's a post from when I first received:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=116259&highlight=fe166es-R&r=&session=

 

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