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What sub-woofer are sacdians using for m-ch?

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Posted on May 28, 2012 at 08:47:24
jeromelang
Audiophile

Posts: 1908
Joined: February 2, 2001
Looking for a sub-woofer, for m-ch music and film soundtracks

my system:
SACD player = Sony SCD-XA9000ES m-ch analog out, or the PS3 HDMI out
M-ch amp = Sony STR-DA5500ES as master controller and amp for rear ch + Sony TA-N1 for front ch
Speakers = Sony SS-M9ED x 4 for front and rear, no centre ch.

What do you guys use, what were your main sonic considerations, and what brand/model do you recommend?

 

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RE: What sub-woofer are sacdians using for m-ch?, posted on May 28, 2012 at 09:43:45
The very best sub is No sub. Use floor standing TLS speakers, get a centre channel speaker.

 

yau are fortunate to have those speakers, posted on May 28, 2012 at 10:32:39
hifitommy
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there are many subs that would befit them such as REL. with a full MC system, i would be looking for a quality center as well.

the speakers would definitely survive an upgrade in electronics as well. see link below for JA's opinion. note the level of equipment used.
...regards...tr

 

RE: What sub-woofer are sacdians using for m-ch?, posted on May 28, 2012 at 17:43:42
HighEndWire
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I have 4 Rels in the main system. 2 Storm IIIs for stereo, a Q150 for the center and a Strata III on the rears.

 

RE: What sub-woofer are sacdians using for m-ch?, posted on May 29, 2012 at 06:32:44
Fitzcaraldo215
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Location: Philadelphia
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I use a single JL Audio Fathom f113 coupled with my Martin Logan stat hybrids with superb results. I have yet to hear better, more accurate bass anywhere, especially on music. But, any sub at any price is only as good as your room. Ditto for any speaker used full range into the deep bass. Unfortunately, your Sony AVR cannot apply DSP EQ to eliminate room modes, which can be startlingly large in any room. They are the result of the laws of physics and acoustics. The modes are quite measurable and audible as uneven frequency response, one note bass, bass hangover and apparent "loss of speed". The improvement Through DSP EQ can be quite startling, and almost instantly audible even with the best of subs.

The exceptions would involve the use of calibrated passive bass traps or custom Helmholtz resonators, which need to be quite huge in order to deal with low frequencies. Off the shelf traps do not go low enough in almost all cases. So, they would have to be custom built to deal with subwoofer frequencies.

Some subs have built in DSP EQ for the bass region. Some of those, like my JL, operate only on the single worst mode, which I find inadequate. I use the Audyssey MultEQ XT/32 in my prepro coupled with the Audyssey Pro kit, which does an outstandingly better job. Measurements confirm what my ears hear loudly and clearly. The results have been consistently excellent in other room/systems, not just to me, but to their owners as well.

Other subs have more sophisticated EQ,and there are some separate EQ boxes that are designed for just the sub channel, usualy with a calibration mike for proper setup. They are analog in/out, but DSP inside. This is the approach I recommend that you consider. It need not be insanely expensive. DSP EQ is most highly recommended. Once you hear it, you will never want to be without it.

 

RE: What sub-woofer are sacdians using for m-ch?, posted on May 29, 2012 at 08:35:20
jeromelang
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Thanks for recommending the JL subs.
Will check that out, plus others that other inmates have mentioned.

FYI, The Sony receiver has room calibration function too.

It's 31 band room eq is flexible enough to allow tailoring of only the rear channels using the front channels as reference, or tailoring all 5.1/7.1 channels to compensate for the room deficiencies, or simply turn the eq off altogether.

See URL link of the set up interface below.

That was done more than 6 months ago with the sony ss-m7 as the front channels and the Sony ss-x90ed as the rear. I have since changed all the 4 speakers into the ruler-flat sony ss-m9ed (the same as used in Gus Skinas SACD mastering centre, Colorado)

And in the current situation, I have opted NOT to apply any DSP eq, because, by dong so, the hirez audio would be decimated down into lower, pcm-based sampling rates, and I need to avoid that because the decimation process is clearly deleterious to my ears.

From the SCD-XA9000ES, I simply engaged the delay function, which is performed in the dsd domain, to compensate for the shorter distances of the 2 rear speakers. All the 6 channels are output into the receiver's analog multichannel inputs. The centre channel mix down is performed in the receiver, purely in the analog domain (this is done so as not to avoid signal overload at the sacd player side, because it can easily be a problem in the dsd domain). While operating in the analog direct mode, the receiver's digital and dsp processing power supply is shut down so as to provide a quieter platform for dsd hirez resolution to shine through.

And of course, avoiding the use of the HDMI interface, the dreaded jitter issue ceased to be a problem.





 

No sub may be a bad idea, posted on May 29, 2012 at 15:06:57
pbarach
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If you have no sub and use full-range speakers, you may end up with poor frequency response in the bass, since the best position for your midrange driver and tweeter can result in bloated, insufficient, or otherwise less than optimum bass response. A good sub that is well integrated with other speakers using a room correction system (such as Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 or the discontinued SVS AS-EQ1) will often get better results than full-range speakers in many listening environments.

 

RE: What sub-woofer are sacdians using for m-ch?, posted on May 29, 2012 at 18:01:36
Fitzcaraldo215
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Ok, you have got something of a handle on the issues, and you have made then choice that appeals to you. I also have the capability to listen to pure DSD to analog, and in my system to my ears, that sounds distinctly inferior to use of DSP EQ, albeit with the, to me, insignificant penalty of conversion to PCM.

Re the alleged jitter issue with HDMI, a friend and I have listened extensively and we are simply not hearing it on either of our different systems, try as we might. Agreed it was an issue several generations of HDMI ago, but we think jitter suppression techniques have developed and matured in many better implementations today. I am sure they will continue to make it even slightly better. But, nonetheless, rocks continue to be thrown by people with zero listening experience to it in its current form.

 

RE: What sub-woofer are sacdians using for m-ch?, posted on May 29, 2012 at 18:50:30
jeromelang
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"...Re the alleged jitter issue with HDMI, a friend and I have listened extensively and we are simply not hearing it on either of our different systems, try as we might....."

It is useless to have any more discussion with you. If you rather not go out to investigate an ARC equipped HDMI system, but you prefer to sit there at your desk to argue about this issue till the cows come home, that's your perogrative. Bye.

 

B&W ASW 825 nt, posted on May 29, 2012 at 20:06:49
Jazz Inmate
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RE: No sub may be a bad idea, posted on May 29, 2012 at 22:21:17
pbarach: Your post is not my experience. Going back to the days when the Quad ELS-63's first arrived I could never get satisfactory integration with Swedish Audio-Pro sub.OK with small LS3/5a stand mount speakers still the same today. However I much prefer floor standing TLS speakers for music & HT.and would not touch any sub with a barge pole this is my preference others who want unnatural bass will disagree. B& W say that for music a sub is not required.Perhaps I have been lucky with my various listening rooms, I have considerable experience of Live v recorded sound and no interest in any form of Audyssey Noel Keywood (Publisher & Editor Hi-Fi World) describes it as a gimmick. A loudspeaker designer & electronics expert friend of mine would not use a sub-woofer for himself, but makes them, for others.

 

RE: No sub may be a bad idea, posted on May 30, 2012 at 03:19:31
pbarach
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Disbeliever: Yes, our experiences are different, and so are our listening rooms and equipment. I do not see Audyssey as a gimmick. With Audyssey in my system, I have much better bass control and soundstage imaging, and I'm talking about listening to music over a system with two speakers and a subwoofer. As to the statement from B&W that subs are not needed for music, my front speakers are B&W 704s. These do not have the low bass extension that you find in the full-size 800-series speakers. They have little output below 40 Hz. My subwoofer adds another octave below (i.e., down to 20 Hz), which is essential in some kinds of music, such as pipe organ. Without the subwoofer, I am not hearing the fundamental frequency of organ pedals, but just the overtones.

The sub (and Audyssey) are IMO essential in my system when the center channel and surrounds are in use for multichannel SACD or movie use.

 

RE: No sub may be a bad idea, posted on May 30, 2012 at 05:30:00
If one has floor standers -preferably TLS speakers that go low enough in the bass a sub-woofer is not required.If you are happy with your system so be it.

 

RE: What sub-woofer are sacdians using for m-ch?, posted on May 30, 2012 at 06:54:42
Fitzcaraldo215
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It was not just me who failed to hear it. Several others also did not hear it. One is a noted recording reviewer for several publications. His system is in the $100k MSRP range. The other systems in question are worth about half that.

So, rather that just rehashing whatever outdated material you choose and spouting your beliefs, what actual listening experience have you had personally that convinces you of what you so steadfastly hold to be true?

Note that I am saying that some implementations may continue to suffer from HDMI jitter to a greater or lesser extent. I am just saying we have not heard it in careful listening on any of ours.

 

RE: What sub-woofer are sacdians using for m-ch?, posted on May 30, 2012 at 08:05:14
jeromelang
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"...One is a noted recording reviewer for several publications. His system is in the $100k MSRP range. The other systems in question are worth about half that...."

Please give us the name of this failure of a reviewer.
We want to know his name and the audio publication(s) he writes for.
Thanks in advance.

 

RE: What sub-woofer are sacdians using for m-ch?, posted on May 30, 2012 at 08:32:13
Fitzcaraldo215
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You first. What actual listening experience have you had that confirms the audibility of HDMI jitter as you claim? I will be only to glad to divulge his name when you have done so.

 

RE: What sub-woofer are sacdians using for m-ch?, posted on May 30, 2012 at 10:45:12
jeromelang
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I doubt you will be as truthful with the name of this reviewer, but here goes....

But rather than just listing listening experiences with different generations of HDMI interfaces, I should briefly highlight instead, my listening experiences with the implementation of audio rate control (arc) within digital audio interfaces.

2001 - Sony H.A.T.S. or iLink (IEEE1394) as implemented on the Sony LISSA stereo system. One of Sonya's earliest implementation of a bi-directional digital audio transmission system where the receiver dac act as a master controlling the speed of the digital data being transmitted from the source to the dac. As the data arrives at the input of the dac, they are buffered and reclocked before being sent into the DAC to be decoded. I heard the demo at a technology fair in Amsterdam. Months later I received a whole sample in my office to play with, due to some collaborations I had with sony then. Cut the story short - when audio rate control was activated (Sony called this "HATS ON"), music has that natural nimble flow, soundstage spaciously recessed deep into the back of the speakers, clearly focussed image localization. When audio rate control was deactivated (HATS OFF), soundstage height collapsed, and come forward. Ambient cues were sharply reduced, and imaging focus became vague, and the overall feel of the music became lethargic. I remember that I had used the word "sour" when I was asked what was my first impression when HATS was off. I played with that stereo system on my office desk for a few months.

In 2003 - i bought the Pioneer DV-S755Ai and VSX-A10i combination, intending to test out the singular IEEE1394 connector between them. Again, this was a bi-directional digital audio interface, with the dac in the receiver acting as the master controlling the speed of the data transfer, and buffering and reclocking the data arriving at the input of the dac. Very nice sound, especially with the arc activated. And sounding "sour" when it was not, with collapsed sondstaging, blurred imaging and generally very uninvolving sound.

In that same year, I received samples of the Sony SCD-XA9000ES and the TA-DA9000ES combination, which, similar to the Pioneer, the iLink IEEE 1394 digital interface between these 2 units facilitates audio rate control to suppress the potential jitter that would occur when dsd/PCM data is transmitted. On this very transparent system, driving a wide variety of speakers, including a pair of Wilson 7s on a few occasions, we could hear the damaging effect of jitter very very clearly, whenever "HATS" was turned off. My colleagues and i certainly couldn't sit still and listen to the music for long, so utterly unmusical was the whole experience. You see, by this time, we had gotten so awared of deleterious effects of jitter on the digital audio, so much so that it took merely 10 secs for us to recognize the presence of interface induced jitter.

Besides the SCD-XA9000ES that year, Sony also provided us with a DVD player, the DVP-S9100ES with the iLink IEEE1394 interface output and a very earlier implementation of the HDMI interface output. Naturally we put both these to the test. Needless to say, iLink sounded best, by a mile, especially when HATS was activated. But if HATS was turned off on iLink, then both sounded equally shitty. Now the Sony TA-DA9000ES was highly flexible, was able to assign both it's iLink input onto any one of its other av inputs, including HDMI. so this was what we ended up using most of the time - we use the iLink for audio transmission, and the HDMI for video transmission while watching a DVD movie on the DVP-S9100ES. even though we could only get compressed audio from the DVD-video discs, I remember at that time, that the film sound reproduction had that spacious, blossoming soundstaging that floats holographically outside the speaker cabinets and imaging height were never truncated unlike bluray movies playback via HDMI that we get nowadays. I had that Sony combo in my home theatre for a year, before replacing the receiver for another Sony model, also with iLink HATS ON/HATS OFF function. On the many occasions that friends and relations come to visit, I make it a point to demo the sonic differences that can be had activating and deactivating the HATS function. The audience never failed to spot the sonic differences. Most of them are novices, and I think they rather watch the movies interrupted..... But I think they got the point - what is new is never always better - and HDMI might sound very high tech and fanciful, but unlike iLink, it lacks the sophisticated digital audio control technologies necessary to bring interface jitter under control for proper appreciation of music and film sound.

Fast forward to the year that blu ray was introduced. My office was the first in south east Asia to receive a working sample. After using it for a training session for Sony sales people, I was tasked to hand carry it to places like Australia and Hong Kong to help Sony people there launch the format. I also was tasked to create a bluray demo disc which the retail people in the whole Asia Pacific regions can use. But there were no BD authoring houses set up at that time in that region, so we had to engage a production company in the USA to create the demo disc, and i had to travel to San Francisco at the time of near completion of the demo disc to proof check the masters. That was how I was able to meet up with Jazz Inmate in person, and I invited him to join us in the session at Dolby Lab.

After the first Sony bluray player, the BDP-S1, we received subsequent new generations of hirez video players which relies solely on the HDMI interface for both audio and video transmission into home theatre receivers. In all these case, while playing back reissues of older movies on bluray disc vs their earlier releases on DVD discs, played via older HATS equipped systems, we noticed that soundstaging for bluray film sound were always shrunkened and listless in comparison, even though they might have "more meat on the bones". Now you see, all there years playing with digital audio interfaces have taught me that when there is high jitter degradation, soundstaging size, perspective, depth and height will always be the thing to suffer. In comparison even with a cheap, factory supplied 75ohm digital coaxial cable, we find that in many instances playing stereo music, HDMI can sound worse. I thought at that time - is this what newer technology is supposed to give you? Better video quality but poorer sound? Or more conveniences (as in 8=>1 fewer number of cables) but 3 steps back in sound compared to what we used to have with the iLink? My prayers were to be answered later.

I was the first to receive the HATS equipped SCD-XA5400ES in south east Asia, as usual. I played around with it together with the partnering HATS equipped STR-DA5400ES for a couple of weeks to prepare for training to Sony guys. This combo was a godsend. When HATS was activated, I could hear again that sweet, effortlessly flowing music that I used to experience with HATS ON iLink systems. Again, the soundstaging is wide and spacious, deeply recessed when there is ample space behind the speakers, and sonic images float holographically outside the boundaries of speaker cabinets. Imaging is precise and sharply delineated, with plenty of air between the notes to help create that effect of multi layering that characterize a good recording. And again, when HATS is turned off, there is the very noticeable creeping of that "souriness" into the presentation, a wholesale collapse of the soundstage, and acres of gaps started appearing in the spaces between speakers, rendering each speaker channels as lonely islands lost at seas. Sadly, Sony never made an equivalent bluray player that utilizes similar audio rate control going forward. Charles Hansen at Ayre obviously recognizes the importance of audio rate control as an effective way to suppress the deleterious effect of interface induced jitter that he went ahead to include that function into his highly expensive DX5 bluray player. Will the DX5 work smoothly with a Sony HATS equipped receiver? I don't know because I haven't tried it. but one thing is for sure, subsequent bluray players I have tried in my system including previous and current oppo players outputting digital audio on HDMI still exhibit that "sourness" and retarded soundstaging that I had noticed with poorly implemented digital interfaces all those many years since. If your room is large enough to accommodate all 5 speakers being placed at equal distances and you don't have serious room acoustical problems, it always sound better avoiding HDMI connectivity altogether, and use the analog outputs from the sacd and bluray players instead.

 

Are you guys listening to music???? nt, posted on May 30, 2012 at 12:23:08
jazz1
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nt

 

RE: No sub may be a bad idea, posted on May 30, 2012 at 12:28:47
jazz1
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My main speakers go down to 33Hz +_ 3 db but with my 2 subs I get close to a flat response down to 20 Hz and that makes a huge difference to lots of music especially organ music which I love, I could not listen to my organ cds with my subs off. Other benefits are a better and deeper sound stage.

 

RE: What sub-woofer are sacdians using for m-ch?, posted on May 30, 2012 at 13:40:36
Fitzcaraldo215
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Ok. I do not disbelieve any of your listening experiences. But, I think it is all old news. HATS, for example, goes back quite a ways, and I do not doubt it was a very effective jitter suppression technique. But, time marches on. HATS is history, nowhere to be found in current Sony products. One good theory as to why that happened is that the jitter suppression in off the shelf HDMI send/receive chips has improved in successive generations to the point where HATS has a hard time distinguishing itself sonically.

Hansen's Oppo 83 based DX-5 is also, I think, history at this point. In spite of Ayre's extensive reengineering on the HDMI side, Kal Rubison highly praised it, but candidly admitted that the differences between it a a stock Oppo were small. That was without using any Audio Rate Control, of course.

In the mean time, with a different sonic objective in mind and different methods, we in my circle are all happiest via HDMI as an enabler of full range DSP EQ. We think we have the measure of what conversion from DSD to PCM does, and we find that difference quite small compared to the benefits of EQ to control room/speaker abberations, notably in the deep bass. It is not something any of us would give up without a fight, that is how much of an improvement it makes in several different systems of different manufacture with different EQ products. I do not think that the the fixed frequency graphic EQ in your Sony comes close, and likely does not achieve the frequency or time-domain performance of Audyssey or Anthem ARC, to name a few.

And, now, roil of the drums. His name is Andy Quint of TAS and Fanfare. Your snide comments aside, I trust his ears, his background as a musician and his really extensive - way more than mine, even - concert going experience to calibrate those ears as to the sound of live music.

We each do what we like and what we believe in.

 

RE: No sub may be a bad idea, posted on May 30, 2012 at 15:10:41
pbarach
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"so be it"--I guess I am dismissed! But it's not just my opinion you're dismissing when you trash the possibility that subwoofers can integrate with other speakers and may provide advantages in getting smoother bass response. I don't think any reasonably attentive listener would find that smooth bass response can be obtained at ANY speaker placement, so why would you assume that the best place to put a speaker for imaging will always give the smoothest and deepest bass response?

Concerning the issue about poor integration of a sub with a non-full-range speaker, good integration requires attention not just to crossover frequency and level, but also to the time domain and to phase. This can't be done easily by ear (if at all). This is what a subwoofer room correction system (e.g., those offered by Audyssey) is designed to do.

 

RE: Are you guys listening to music???? nt, posted on May 30, 2012 at 15:51:20
Fitzcaraldo215
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No argument about that. It's what is all about. The arguments come when you talk about equipment and the means to best get it out of the way of the music. Everybody has their own choices and beliefs about that.

 

very comprehensive answer, posted on May 30, 2012 at 20:18:46
Metralla
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a lot of experience there.
Regards,
Geoff

 

Got me the ASW-700 with a Velo SPL-10 caddy corner ^, posted on May 31, 2012 at 05:38:39
Road Warrior
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--------------------------

"I'd like to own a squadron of tanks"



 

RE: No sub may be a bad idea, posted on May 31, 2012 at 06:08:31
Fitzcaraldo215
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I very much agree with the other posters here, and disagree with you entirely. Integration, placement, the fact that a powered sub biamps your system, etc. all add up to better sound IF done properly.

Your old experience with Quads and analog crossovers is simply not relevant to today's experience with digital crossovers and time domain correct EQ. You are living in the past and out of touch with today's reality.

B&W? You do not "need" a sub for anything. But, that does not say it cannot make a substantial improvement, which I have heard it do in countless systems on music, even with "full range" speakers.

Noel Keywood? It was clear in a lengthy exchange with you that he was clueless about Audyssey, even about MCh. His published reviews make that obvious.

 

RE: No sub may be a bad idea, posted on May 31, 2012 at 06:51:36
If a sub -woofer is so important , why are many suround sound SACD discs
e.g. highly regarded Channel Classics Stravinsky Rite of Spring Ivan Fischer, only recorded in 5.0 & not 5.1

 

RE: No sub may be a bad idea, posted on May 31, 2012 at 09:19:20
Fitzcaraldo215
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You absolutely do not need the .1 channel on playback media to get all the benefits from a subwoofer. The whole .1 channel idea dates back to the days before Mch processors had good DSP bass management. Since the processor could not do it back then, they did it for you on the disc at the studio. It continues purely as an irrelevant legacy. SACD came later, and there was no need for .1 on the disk, but it is there anyway, though seldom used. I am quite surprised that you did not know that.

 

RE: No sub may be a bad idea, posted on May 31, 2012 at 09:34:20
Thanks for the info, I did not know, fortunately I do not need a sub.

 

RE: No sub may be a bad idea, posted on May 31, 2012 at 09:38:02
Thanks for the info, I did not know, fortunately I do not need a sub I get adequate bass from my slim 8 " wide TLS speakers and do not miss my larger ones which I had for 14 years.

 

DIY SuperSubs, and WOW do they work!, posted on May 31, 2012 at 18:25:13
jeffreybehr
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Four 12" drivers per channel, driven by a Crown CDi2000...low-pass filtered at 40Hz, 4th-order. I define 'No SW' in the discplayer and drive the SWs in parallel with the main-front outputs. These SWs are about flat to 14Hz (where I stopped measuring). Combined with the EXCELLENT bass from the Vandersteen 5As, I've never heard better bass in a home-audio system.

Right-channel being mounted.
Photobucket

The pair in a composite pic, both taken from over the CC speaker.
Photobucket


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Tin-eared audiofool, large-scale-Classical music lover, and damned-amateur fotografer.
"Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted." Albert Einstei

 

RE: DIY SuperSubs, and WOW do they work!, posted on June 1, 2012 at 02:04:36
Disbeliever


 
Be careful sub bass vibration does not damage your House, hope neighbours are not too close, an overkill you must be a bass freak ha.

 

"...an overkill (SIC) you must be a bass freak..." Until you have experienced..., posted on June 1, 2012 at 11:31:37
jeffreybehr
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...high-quality, extended-way-down bass, you simply have no idea how it adds to the enjoyment of music. No, I'm not a bassfreak, at least not a typical one who wants diddeebopper-thumping mid-bass so loud they can't hear themselves think.

I want bass that makes me feel as if I was in that cathedral when the Saint-Seans Organ Symphony was being recorded, and my system does that.

So no, not overkill at all, just musical bliss.
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Tin-eared audiofool, large-scale-Classical music lover, and damned-amateur fotografer.
"Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted." Albert Einstei

 

I agree with you whole heartedly, posted on June 1, 2012 at 12:27:39
Robert C. Lang
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I am usually dismissive of careless labels such as "bass freak". It is nothing less that silly and immature and perhaps jealousy, too, when someone broad brushes a music lover for striving to obtain bass quality that is as worthy as the mids and highs in his or her audio system.

My multi channel system includes 14 bass drivers scattered around the room (although I do not employ a *true* sub woofer, per se). The reproduction of 15-18 hertz at levels in balance with the mids and highs, no problem...and with *no* audible overhang or lumpiness at the listening position. And as you know so well one does not have to enjoy pipe organ to appreciate the benefits and realism of the lowest octaves in music. The "weight" of ubiquitous piano and orchestral recordings sounds so much more "right" with reduced low bass restrictions. If that makes me a "bass head" or "bass freak", so be it.


Robert C. Lang

 

well said [nt], posted on June 1, 2012 at 15:42:41
Joe Murphy Jr
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.

 

...and I with you, sir. TYVM. (NT), posted on June 1, 2012 at 17:11:41
jeffreybehr
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.
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Tin-eared audiofool, large-scale-Classical music lover, and damned-amateur fotografer.
"Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted." Albert Einstei

 

4 AE IB15s in PPSLIB, posted on June 9, 2012 at 18:44:34
Scholl
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That's push pull slot loaded infinate baffle using a Crest VS1500 amp. DSOTM Time has killer bass cords from start to the end in fact many DSOTM and WYWH songs have the deepest bass at the end of songs rather than beginning.

Keb MO 5.1 has chest pounding bass.

One thing to be concerned with is that some SACD .1 tracks are full range. that's where full instruments are mixed into the .1 track without lowpass crossover filtering. On DSOTM Money the bass line is listening to the bass guitar full range by itself at times.

 

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