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The new Marantz SA-11S2 SACD player

218.103.204.118
Posted on August 25, 2007 at 18:06:48
Keung


 
Quite attractive because it uses the flagship SA-7S1 's transport mechanism.
Structurally almost identical except a smaller transformer & the lack of digital-analog isolation ICs.
Available in September. List price in Japan: 472500yen.
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070822/marantz1.htm
http://www.phileweb.com/news/audio/200708/22/7405.html

 

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That's interesting., posted on August 26, 2007 at 05:32:18
tlyyra
Audiophile

Posts: 1422
Location: Northern Europe
Joined: April 6, 2006
 If so, looks like a nice example of the trickle-down effect, and the new transport would clearly be an improvement (and seemingly at reasonable cost, too).

What I'd be curious about however is the possibility for retrofitting the S1 models with this obviously much better (reliable) mechanism, if indeed the models are otherwise structurally alike enough. I for one would seriously consider this option even at significant extra cost. The S1 is a keeper in every other respect and you can find used models for almost ridiculously cheap prices these days (much thanks to the transport/reader reliability problems I guess).

TL

 

SA-11S2 structurally more similar to SA-7S1 than SA-11S1, posted on August 26, 2007 at 06:47:17
Keung


 
According to the two Japanese hifi web news, the SA-11S2 is structurally more similar to SA-7S1.

Have a look of the news release posters showed in the photos: the SA-11S2 & SA-7S1 were placed side by side & the only obvious difference was their transformer sizes.

 

wonder what it will cost in US?, posted on August 26, 2007 at 06:52:56
jygesq
Audiophile

Posts: 456
Location: connecticut
Joined: January 17, 2006
 seems it will destroy SA7 market

 

Thanks, I see it now., posted on August 26, 2007 at 09:38:53
tlyyra
Audiophile

Posts: 1422
Location: Northern Europe
Joined: April 6, 2006
 But I'm still curious enough to try and find out from my trusted servicer...

TL

 

Same price range as S1., posted on August 26, 2007 at 09:40:00
ontrack2@gmail.com
Manufacturer

Posts: 478
Location: Virginia
Joined: April 13, 2006
 Both S1 and S2 are listed at 472.500Y

 

wonder when it will come to US?, posted on August 26, 2007 at 11:30:55
jygesq
Audiophile

Posts: 456
Location: connecticut
Joined: January 17, 2006
 and I just bought an SA11 in April!!

 

doesn't make sense almost same as SA7 @Sa11price, posted on August 26, 2007 at 11:32:28
jygesq
Audiophile

Posts: 456
Location: connecticut
Joined: January 17, 2006
 it will kill SA7 market,

 

Estimated at $4299, posted on August 26, 2007 at 12:05:54
visualguy
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: CA
Joined: June 23, 2007
 My dealer estimates the list price for the SA-11S2 at $4299, but no price has been set yet by Marantz USA.

I agree that this product spells the end of the SA-7S1. The SA-11S2 essentially replaces both the SA-11S1 and the SA-7S1 with a product that's much closer in price to the SA-11S1 than it is to the SA-7S1.

My guess is that the SA-7S1 was just a stop-gap product until Marantz could ramp up production on the new transport, and now they're ready to bring the technology to the larger market. The good thing is that they didn't compromise it in the process, and they're providing a new product that's as good (same guts) as the SA-7S1 for thousands less.

 

More Marantz SA-11S2 info on the official site, posted on August 26, 2007 at 19:10:05
PS Yeo
Audiophile

Posts: 274
Joined: September 5, 2001
 See below link for more info on Marantz JP site.

Retail Prices comparison in Japan before sale tax :
SA7S1 - JPY 700,000
SA11S2 - JPY 450,000
SA11S1 - JPY 350,000

 

Not here:, posted on August 27, 2007 at 03:42:06
4frank2
Audiophile

Posts: 315
Location: The Hague
Joined: August 24, 2000
 Normal price sa-11 S1: 3000 euro, but can be found for 2300 euro
Price S2: 3500 euro

A lot of extra money for a better optical drive...


(btw. the SA-7 is 7K)

 

are both sa11s1 &salls2 going to be available?, posted on August 27, 2007 at 06:09:15
jygesq
Audiophile

Posts: 456
Location: connecticut
Joined: January 17, 2006
 at same time?

 

RE: are both sa11s1 &salls2 going to be available?, posted on August 27, 2007 at 18:52:39
PS Yeo
Audiophile

Posts: 274
Joined: September 5, 2001
 May be for a short time only.
The orginal SA11-S1 was released in Japan at 2004 December and long due for replacement.

 

The new Marantz SA-11S2 SACD player, posted on August 27, 2007 at 19:43:15
MGH
Audiophile

Posts: 433
Joined: August 10, 2004
 Balanced vs. single ended output. Which sounds better?

 

Not really fair, posted on August 27, 2007 at 22:25:29
berlin


 
Starting price at introduction for the 11s1 was 3000. s2 for 3500 euro. A fair increase for the drive plus polarisation switch.

berlin

 

my Marantz Refrence dealer claims balanced, posted on August 28, 2007 at 05:51:30
jygesq
Audiophile

Posts: 456
Location: connecticut
Joined: January 17, 2006
 sounds better,

 

really you get lot more seems almost same M, posted on August 28, 2007 at 05:53:38
jygesq
Audiophile

Posts: 456
Location: connecticut
Joined: January 17, 2006
 circuits DAC ect as in SA7, only with smaller transformer/

 

RE: my Marantz Refrence dealer claims balanced, posted on August 28, 2007 at 16:56:13
MGH
Audiophile

Posts: 433
Joined: August 10, 2004
 Damn! I hate when that happens.

 

Yes his is tryiong to sell me a new amp M, posted on August 29, 2007 at 07:28:09
jygesq
Audiophile

Posts: 456
Location: connecticut
Joined: January 17, 2006
 with balanced inputs. I'm sticking to what I have as I am happy with sound. There are diminishing returns against prices paid for equipment,

 

RE: Balanced versus unbalanced, posted on August 29, 2007 at 22:45:29
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 I have been running my SA-7 both ways, with comparable Jena Labs cables, and my advice is, if you have an actual balanced pre (not just one with XLR connectors) then run it balanced. If you don't, then don't.

I run mine balanced into a modified BAT 51-SE and unbalanced into my Ming Da EL-34-AB, and adore it both ways.

Doc S.

 

Hi Doc S. !, posted on August 30, 2007 at 10:30:10
berlin


 
Doc,

Can I assume that you will get the sa-11s2 and not the sa-11s1 for the comparison to the sa-7 in your review?

thanx,
berlin

 

RE:Each Week ..., posted on August 30, 2007 at 16:42:16
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 I nag the Marantz rep for more review sampls of the 7 and the new 11 as soon as it comes to these shores.

Doc S.

 

What is missing in SA-11S2 (compared to SA-7S1), posted on August 30, 2007 at 18:42:48
Keung


 
When compared to SA-7S1, the SA-11S2 not only gets a smaller transformer but also does not have the special digital-analog isolation ICs.

When Marantz launched SA-7S1 in Hong Kong, they claimed that these isolation ICs were one of the two reasons why its sonics was so outstanding. (The other reason was its transport mechanism.)

 

say Dr. S..., posted on August 30, 2007 at 22:23:41
Enzo
Audiophile

Posts: 67
Joined: November 20, 2000
 Have you auditioned any of APL Hifi's latest offerings? What do you make of his claim that converting DSD to PCM sounds better?

 

RE: Teac makes the same claim, posted on August 31, 2007 at 09:40:01
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 They assert that a combination of downsampling from DSD to PCM and their VRDS transport sounds "better" than native DSD.

I spent some time with one of their machines that did this, and I have to disagree. I understand the charm, because you get an effect not unlike Technicolor, but in direct comparison with the high end of DSD reproduction (Marantz, Meitner, Lindemann, etc.) the difference is clear.

Chopping serloin into hamburger may be a personal preference for some, but however you shape it and polish it, it is hamburger, even if you call it "Salisbury Steak." Don't misunderstand ... I really like Salisbury Steak, but I am not likely to confuse it for the real thing.

Understand, there is a lot of investment in universal players, most of which do route DSD through PCM land.

And, in all candor, we are a ways away from reliable SACD recordings where everything stays in DSD. I wish it were more clear than it is, but this is the exegenisis of a new medium. Remember how long it was before most CD's were DDD designated?

Doc S.

 

RE: What is missing in SA-11S2 (compared to SA-7S1), posted on August 31, 2007 at 09:54:29
visualguy
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: CA
Joined: June 23, 2007
 I don't see how the new transport would affect the sonics. The new transport enhances reliability, but not sonics.

As to the bigger transformer and digital isolator - I'd be really surprised if you could tell a difference in sound.

My guess is that the improved sound of the SA-7S1 when compared to the SA-11S1 (if it is indeed noticeably better) can be attributed mostly to the new DAC and improved HDAM modules. The SA-11S2 has these, so I would expect it to sound just as good as the SA-7S1, and in fact this is what Marantz says in their press release. They say that the SA-11S2 matches the sound performance of the SA-7S1. I don't see a reason to argue with that.

 

RE: Teac makes the same claim, posted on August 31, 2007 at 10:17:49
Ron D
Audiophile

Posts: 504
Location: Alberta
Joined: June 3, 2000
 I would have to agree. A buddy of mine acquired a X-03SE thst converts DSD to PCM and while I thought the redbook presentation was great the SACD left me wanting more. Now it was relatively new and not broken-in (for those that this matters to...) but I was a little disappointed in the SACD from it especially for what it cost (although it is built like a brick $hithouse)! I actually thought SACD via my lowly 2 year old XA-9000ES was better. I am hoping to hear it again in a few weeks now that its 3 months old and worn in a bit more.

 

RE: I have been in conversation with Marantz, posted on August 31, 2007 at 10:21:21
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
There is always a "leap-frog" process in updating technology.

The new eleven will incorporate a number of features on the current 7, including the basic transport, which is a killer.

But there are significant differences between the two, including

The SA-7S1 will still have:

Larger power supply

Magna-couplers isolating the analog & digital sections

External clock input

Heavier chassis

and other refinements.

Bottom line, from my source, is that there are significant enough sonic differences to allow consumers to make a meaningful choice. Obviously, they don't want the sales of one machine to kill the sales of the other.

The real bottom line is that both machines will be killers at their price points.

There is also enough of a price increase coming to make the current 11's a very good value indeed.

Doc S.

 

RE: Esoteric Construction, posted on August 31, 2007 at 10:26:28
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 I have been a massive fan for decades ... for years and years I used a VRDS-20 as a transport (with various iterations of the Timbre DAC), and it is STILL functioning in someone else's system without the slightest pause.

It is one of the few uniquivocal things in audio, but the VRDS transport is simply without peer, and the construction quality and fit and finish of Esoteric products is a joy to behold.

That being said, I think the choice to downsample DSD is unfortunate.

Doc S.

 

RE: I have been in conversation with Marantz, posted on August 31, 2007 at 18:05:15
visualguy
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: CA
Joined: June 23, 2007
 That's strange because if you read the Marantz Japan press release (you can have it translated) for the SA-11S2, it explicitly says that the SA-11S2 matches the sound performance of the SA-7S1. They wouldn't be saying that if they planned to keep selling the SA-7S1.

I don't see how they can keep the SA-7S1 product after the introduction of the SA-11S2, and I don't believe that they're planning to. There's just no way they can charge thousands more for a heavier chassis, a somewhat larger power supply, and digital isolators. All indications are that the SA-7S1 was a limited-run product until they could ramp up production on the new components. My Marantz US contact says that the SA-7S1 has been very difficult to get, and they haven't been able to get Marantz Japan to send more than very few at a time - fewer than needed to fulfill orders. He doesn't know if Marantz is killing it or not, but it sure looks like it.



 

Or ..., posted on September 6, 2007 at 08:46:14
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 They are simply giving you the choice between a 2002 and a 2002 Tii

makes perfect sense to me.

Doc S.

 

Quite the opposite, posted on September 6, 2007 at 11:17:58
visualguy
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: CA
Joined: June 23, 2007
 The 2002tii was the same as the 2002 on the outside, but had significant internal improvements such as a fully-independent suspension.

The situation with the 7S1 vs. 11S2 is quite the opposite: the 7S1 has a nicer chassis than the 11S2, but it is almost identical internally.

By the way, I now own both the 7S1 and the 11S1. The 7S1 is a very well-built product. I haven't tried to perform A/B testing to compare the sound quality of the two, but I plugged the 7S1 into the same high-end system (Jeff Rowland Concerto, Dali Helicon 800) where I used to have the 11S1. It sounds the same to me. I listened to some of my favorite tracks from CDs and SACDs and the sound was fabulous, but not any different or better than what I experienced with the 11S1. If there is an improvement, it can't be major or I would have noticed it even without A/B testing.

Still, I like the better build quality and the better transport of the 7S1.

 

Your observations are greatly appreciated M, posted on September 7, 2007 at 06:11:30
jygesq
Audiophile

Posts: 456
Location: connecticut
Joined: January 17, 2006
 could you expand or have you already summed it up? I have a sa11. thinking of upgrading to SA11 2. Do not know if I will hear difference other than a quieter drive in SACD.

 

RE: Your observations are greatly appreciated M, posted on September 7, 2007 at 09:06:38
visualguy
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: CA
Joined: June 23, 2007
 Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to connect both players to my system and perform careful A/B testing. However, as I said, if there had been a major difference in sound between the 11S1 and the 7S1, I would have noticed it when listening to my favorite tracks on the 7S1.

I'm always careful about this because people have different systems and they hear different things, but based on my observations, I wouldn't expect you to hear a significant difference.

 

RE: Let me clarify, posted on September 7, 2007 at 11:03:38
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 you have one of the new 11's? I thought they were available only in Asia currently.

And the parallel does hold ... there were suspension and engine differences between the two cars, just as there are between the two players. Yes, the transport is the same, but not the power supply and dampening in the heavier 7 chassis.

I would very much like to know how you got your hands on the new 11 ...

Doc S.

 

RE: I would suggest you wait, and hear for yourself, posted on September 7, 2007 at 11:05:09
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 I certainly plan to do A/B comparisons, when the new 11 is available.

Doc S.

 

RE: Let me clarify, posted on September 7, 2007 at 11:17:06
visualguy
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: CA
Joined: June 23, 2007
 I don't have the new 11S2. I have the old 11S1 and the 7S1.

What does the heavier chassis and dampening do to the sound delivered by a CD player? Are you talking about suppressing the noise made by the transport itself? That's really not an issue with the new Marantz transport. I can't think of what else would be affected by the heavier chassis and dampening.

 

THANKS, posted on September 7, 2007 at 12:33:06
jygesq
Audiophile

Posts: 456
Location: connecticut
Joined: January 17, 2006
 I guess I will not upgrade unless I can do it for Real cheap. I only paid $2200 for SA11 NEW through authorized Marantz Reference dealer. I probably will have to pay a lot to upgrade,

 

RE: Vibration control, posted on September 7, 2007 at 13:41:24
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 And of course it makes a difference ... and power supplies make a significant difference.

You don't say where you got a new issue 11 ... I am curious

Marantz's official word is that the two players are sufficiently different, sonically, to separate them.

But, it is certainly not past reasonableness that they are not telling me the truth, and do intend to kill the 7 with the 11 ... certainly stranger things have happened, but I should thing they would want it the other way round.

Doc S.

 

RE: I am suspicious, posted on September 7, 2007 at 16:03:41
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 You refuse to answer how you came to be in possession of a unit that is supposedly only on sale currently in Asia. Are you perhaps comparing the older version of the 11 to the new 7? In which case, pretty much everyone who has heard the two, hears significant differences. They are very different machines, the seven has no op amps, new transport, etc.

Again, if you have one of the new elevens, how do you have it? I am in direct communication with Marantz as a reviewer and I can't get one.

Doc S.

 

RE: I am suspicious, posted on September 7, 2007 at 17:55:35
visualguy
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: CA
Joined: June 23, 2007
 I did respond to that question in one of my other posts on this thread. I have the 11S1, not the 11S2.

I disagree with your claim that the 11S1 is a very different machine from the 7S1. It's enough to just look at the circuit boards for the two machines - they're very similar and they have the same basic design. In terms of op amps - both units use Marantz HDAM modules as output buffer amps. The 7S1 uses a slightly different version of these modules, but it's the same basic design.

By the way, could you please elaborate on how the heavy chassis and dampening affects the sound? What is the physics or electrical engineering behind this? As an engineer myself, I can't figure out how this would make a difference.

 

I'll take a stab at it., posted on September 7, 2007 at 18:23:54
Ted Smith
Manufacturer

Posts: 10297
Location: Seattle
Joined: December 29, 2000
 Howdy

Obviously if there is a difference it has to come in vibration affecting something.

Here are a few things that vibration can affect:

1) The spinning disk

2) The arm movement mechanism (or disc movement for fixed laser designs)

3) Anything that's microphonic (tubes, capacitors, hanging wires in a magnetic or electric field...)

How can these affect the sound? Well it's kind of obvious if anything that's microphonic is in the audio path. But anything that causes more random draws on the power supply can cause power supply ripples that can show up in the audio as well (e.g. the servos spinning the disc or moving the laser (disc).))

A transport or player has internal sources of vibration (off center discs, the arm servo...) as well as being subject to external vibrations (sound impinging the case, vibrations from the stand...)

Obviously dampening of any kind of vibration will help in any of these cases. Also obvious is that the amount of mass that is vibrating changes the resonant frequency of vibration. Less obvious is how much mass is optimal. For example with more mass the lower the resonant frequency of vibration: if the frequency is low enough the audio effects might go low enough to stop being an audible problem.

Anyway if none of this seems real to you you might just try the simple experiment of putting a pound or two of sand (in bags :) on top of your transport, CDP, ... Often this will change the sound, perhaps adding a little focus, getting rid of a little tizzyness, etc.

-Ted

 

RE: I'll take a stab at it., posted on September 7, 2007 at 19:15:13
visualguy
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: CA
Joined: June 23, 2007
 Thanks - that's a good explanation, although I would expect the vibration effects to be very minor, and not within the realm of what I would consider significant or noticeable, in particular when comparing an already heavy 31 lbs player (SA-11S1) to the heavier (49 lbs) SA-7S1.

The place where I stop optimizing the playback equipment is where it starts going way beyond the qualities of the recording and mastering equipment which was used to produce the recording in the first place.

I like the SA-7S1 better than the SA-11S1 not because of its superior sound quality (which I'm afraid I haven't detected), but because of its looks and build quality, although I have to say that it's not perfect. I noticed that some of the buttons on my unit are a little crooked. For example, the marking on the Eject button is not quite parallel to the bottom of the unit - it is tilted at a slight but noticeable angle, so the workmanship is not perfect. Also, I'm not a big fan of the build quality of the remote (which is identical to the SA-11S1 remote, by the way). It is intuitive and easy to use, but the thin plastic back and battery compartment cover leave something to be desired.

 

agree. SA11 is great player I wonder really M, posted on September 7, 2007 at 19:43:23
jygesq
Audiophile

Posts: 456
Location: connecticut
Joined: January 17, 2006
 how much better Sa7 is except for a quieter drive system.

 

RE: I'll take a stab at it., posted on September 7, 2007 at 20:16:56
Ted Smith
Manufacturer

Posts: 10297
Location: Seattle
Joined: December 29, 2000
 Howdy

One simple test is the knuckle rap test, if anything rings (or worse rattles) you have a problem, if all you get is "thunk" you are much better off.

I think just adding mass for masses sake is probably wrong headed, but adding stiffness to the places which had resonances in the audio band is a good idea. Whether this has anything to do with differences between the SA-11S1 and the SA-7S1 I have no idea :)

-Ted

 

RE: I can't argue with what you can't hear., posted on September 8, 2007 at 18:18:15
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 If you say you can hear no difference, then you can't. There is nothing to debate.

However, to state that a different transport and chassis, power supply and other refinements "can't" make a difference in the sonics is quite debatable, as we see in this thread.

From my interactions with others, they can hear significant differences between the two machines.

My time with the 11 was brief and not in controlled circumstances, so I will simply demur from commenting until I get one of the new machines in a controlled environment.

Thanks for clarifying which edition we were arguing about; sorry I missed that earlier reference.

I suspect that both machines would be extremely pleasing to most listeners.

Doc S.

 

Doc S: what do you make of Mark Lawton's comments re. the 7S1..., posted on September 8, 2007 at 18:43:11
Enzo
Audiophile

Posts: 67
Joined: November 20, 2000
 in his PF review:

"Me, I'm not afraid to ask for a little "more" zest and spice from the Marantz, and that's why I'm sending it off to the Mod Man to be upgraded. When I packed it up and sent it out, here's exactly what I asked him to address in order of importance:

1. Improve dynamics, heft, slam, power, punch, oomph, etc.

2. Increase transparency, palpability, and address blackness of background. It has a very low-level (but noticeable) amount of "fog" between you and the performers. Images are a tad "soft" around the edges could use some firming up.

3. Tone is a hair on the warm side of neutral, a small correction wouldn't hurt. Tone is also a tad on the dry side, and if that's fixable, that would be great."

Do you agree or disagree with his reservations?

 

RE: Doc S: what do you make of Mark Lawton's comments re. the 7S1..., posted on September 8, 2007 at 19:34:45
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 I agree with a substantial portion of the review. You may take note that his machine does not have the hours on it mine does. I found it still a little tight up to the 200 hour mark.

1. Improve dynamics, heft, slam, power, punch, oomph, etc.

I suspect this is either a taste issue, or the machine is not yet ran completely in.

2. Increase transparency, palpability, and address blackness of background. It has a very low-level (but noticeable) amount of "fog" between you and the performers. Images are a tad "soft" around the edges could use some firming up.

I am curious about this one, but I run my 7 with high end Jena Labs wire and ac treatment as well as the Critical Mass isolation stands. I suspect this optimization (as I do each of my sources) is probably the key in getting the best out of each machine. His "fog" observation sounds like wire to me.

3. Tone is a hair on the warm side of neutral, a small correction wouldn't hurt. Tone is also a tad on the dry side, and if that's fixable, that would be great."

Here I agree ... in terms of absolute neutral, the machien is a bit to the sweet side, but without giving up a bit of resolution. Dry I don't agree with at all. My system is a big wet kiss with the Marantz driving it.

I have said this before.... people trade machines and go to after market mods long before they have taken the time and effort to really optimize what they have.

I suggest these are the differences between what we are hearing, that and mine is more ran in.

Read Dave's follow up review of the Meiter with the Jena Labs filtering chord, for example, and you will get a feel for the differences between the machine plunked and the machine optimized.

Doc S.

 

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