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Hearing, break-in etc...etc, etc, etc,

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Posted on November 6, 2009 at 18:23:54
jpbeckaudio
Audiophile

Posts: 37
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Joined: June 12, 2009
 I often wonder whether the burn in/break in of an audio component, or cable, or anything other than a physically dynamic item is a reality.

For example, why is it that we never hear anyone say that a cable, amplifier, cd player, sounded worse after a period of, what they refer to as "burn in"?

Do designers and manufacturers "burn in" the individual components, then test them, then decide which would be best for an audio product? We can all imagine how a speaker driver, or phono cartridge, would need some "break in", but can we imagine a "Research and Development" department of any company "burning in" each chip, transistor, or WHATEVER, and then determining what components to install in their latest release?

What do you think?

Here's the truth, posted on November 9, 2009 at 18:46:03
kurt s
Audiophile

Posts: 68
Joined: October 12, 2009
 "[can] we imagine a "Research and Development" department of any company "burning in" each chip, transistor, or WHATEVER, and then determining what components to install in their latest release?"

In a phrase, you bet your sweet ass they do! If they don't they have no known way of finding out if the reliability will be long and stable or "roll off" and die a premature death. Or name a parameter and it too takes very similar natural logarithmic settling times.

For high speed high heat high performance compound semiconductors, on the edge of working or dying, in trying to define the most acceptable design range rules for making IC designs using a new technology, much time for "breaking in" and then "breaking" is tested on many devices. Typically the transistor beta of a BJT in these semiconductors move and settle logarithmically in about 50 - 60 hours at "max" operating stress. Depending on the robustness of the technology, it can move 10% to 50% easy in that time period. And that's just DC gain. Other items are in play: RF power handling for another.

This isn't sci-fi or BS or imagination. I've seen the data myself working as an IC Test Engineer. Why other engineers don't get it, I have no clue! Designs can fail just by losing enough DC/RF gain in the transistors on the chip without catastrophic failure. It is not quite true anymore than tubes get sick but transistors just die. In cutting edge high-speed processes many are pushed to getting sick before death. But if it's digital application then it may not be visible anymore as it crosses the correctable error threshold one time into "death".

Remember that term "natural" in natural log, or ln. It happens all over nature, and in synthetic devices as well, all of them. Some are not meaningful, some are not much. But it's everywhere. There is a settling time for any newly created energized material.

If this seems like BS, get a better education I say.

Yes, everyone, there is always break-in, even in your computer.

And now for the amazing thing. Parts are specified AFTER break-in, not INITIAL CONDITIONS. Semiconductor beta specs for a typical transistor is a parameter tested after burn-in. Most new parts are done this way. Materials untangle their stressed-up initial condition with molecular motion, physical motion, etc. The shaking out and settling process relieves stresses like an annealing process and sends it all down to pretty much lowest stress state (and lowest energy state) where it hits bottom. Spec it at this point, not the confused original condition. Once the earth wasn't so round. Cooling and bombardments, etc over millions of years help shake the mountain peaks down to a more settled state, or state of least potential energy anywhere. Except for opposing forces that do make mountains.

And since annealing and specifying and designing adjustments in a long period sets designs for future similar material to follow the same path, it almost has to always break-in to the improved design intent state. Even if you're an experimenter you can't stop this process helping you out in the end. All the parts individually settle to its intended design.

-Kurt
RE: Here's the truth, posted on November 10, 2009 at 16:24:15
jpbeckaudio
Audiophile

Posts: 37
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Joined: June 12, 2009
 I "think" I understand you correctly. Assuming so, do designers break in the components to determine their final characteristics, and then construct a complete beta unit based on those final characteristics and begin listening tests? In other words, do they use the suppliers specs merely to build a short list of possible components, then break in all the possibilities, and then begin selecting those that meet the desired final goal in their broken-in state, and then begin constructing their beta/final complete unit for listening tests? I would love to think that this is true. Is it?

RE: Here's the truth, posted on November 10, 2009 at 16:36:44
jpbeckaudio
Audiophile

Posts: 37
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Joined: June 12, 2009
 As a continue to my follow up... I assume that the stocked components are not "broken in" since the end customer (the audiophile) needs to use them for a while before they are broken in. Otherwise, nobody would experience the benefits of "burning in" a cd player/dac/cable/or WHATEVER before listening seriously.

RE: Here's the truth, posted on November 10, 2009 at 18:52:50
kurt s
Audiophile

Posts: 68
Joined: October 12, 2009
 This is really simple. All audio equipment designers are different people with different ideas on how to do things. Some do not recognize materials will shift, some do. Some will make one proto, some will make many to see how "statistically" they do.

The designer who designs with the most information will "win" if that's even possible. For companies with very few but high priced sales like Audio Note Japan, there will be one prototype and build others to order and do a lot more checking that the equipment will head toward a good one as designed by the prototype. Other items like high end phono cartridges where breaking in is in some eyes the equivalent of making it a used item, there will be close inspection of its tolerances and measurements for an initial condition product, then see in a hour or so it won't break and won't go South. They depend on quality control to have a hope that there's enough consistency in each unit. Some are better than others at it.

For designs for lower end equipment, a more standard production line is set up, it will be turned on for a few minutes to hours to warm up to make measurements that they believe will remain stable enough, then ship it out. They will have designed it based probably on component's manufacturer's specs and run in long and stress test a few protos before shipping a line of them. Their confidence in the product will be extrapolated to the production line, not monitored there fully.

So the R&D and pre-production testing of long burned-in prototypes will be the testing for reliability of a good final result each time. When things go wrong in the production such as replacements for part obsolescence, a mini re-do for reliability and final performance after break-in should be done, but some might cut corners and just do it on paper.

So that's why some companies are just better than others. Some will make sure you get something they designed to be good, some will not even know and not even care, or something in between.

-Kurt

RE: Here's the truth, posted on November 11, 2009 at 06:48:37
jpbeckaudio
Audiophile

Posts: 37
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Joined: June 12, 2009
 Kurt S
Thanks for your patient replies. I think I've got the whole picture now. You can imagine how puzzling it can be for those of us not in the trade. One reviewer will spend paragraphs 5 - 9 talking about the magnificent transformation of the breaking in period of a pre-amp. The next reviewer will blow the whole thing off with a statement of "I didn't notice any difference by lunch time, so...".

RE: Here's the truth, posted on November 11, 2009 at 09:03:57
kurt s
Audiophile

Posts: 68
Joined: October 12, 2009
 There is one more aspect of this that complicates things. The human mind is also adapting to a new change. If a person does not listen all the time to the equipment breaking in and just waits for the completion of it before listening again, there will be a larger difference. But also a longer time period between remembering what he heard before.

This complicating "neural pathway burn-in" is what many people think accounts for all changes. They are both at work. There are methods of separating the two, but that's too long to discuss here.

-kurt
RE: Hearing, break-in etc...etc, etc, etc,, posted on November 8, 2009 at 09:19:45
fredtr
Audiophile

Posts: 160
Location: Phoenix
Joined: January 4, 2005
 Electronic manufacturers worked for in the 70's and 80's burned in their products, elevated temperatures etc. for the purpose of weeding out the early failures - bathtub curve, electronic failures. Majority of failures, early and late in life cycle. Now components are better designed and built.

Semiconductor manufacturers parametric test their components, sort by spec, and sell accordingly. So for example an op amp with the lowest distortion would be sold with a different part suffix, at a higher price to say for use in an audio amplifier.

Depending on application, mechanical components are broken in and stress tested during R&D phase.

One interesting experience product we sold to military would sit in warehouses for years before use. When powered up had high incidence of failures due to electrolytics re-forming. So break-in isn't all when new, can also be after storage.
things have sounded worse after break in no more using that excuse......nt, posted on November 7, 2009 at 22:52:31
Adriel
Audiophile

Posts: 627
Joined: October 13, 2001
 .

RE: Hearing, break-in etc...etc, etc, etc,, posted on November 7, 2009 at 06:22:13
Dman
Industry Professional

Posts: 3842
Location: Southern Ontario
Joined: January 28, 2001
 Please see the link below. I think you might benefit and/or have some to offer...
"We ask our artists to be true. Actually, we demand that our artists be true. When poets, storytellers, & singers lie to us for money, our culture is diseased & in decline."
-Robert Fripp

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