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The Sendor Harbeth Manifesto

70.95.249.62
Posted on November 3, 2009 at 11:36:43
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 It's been too damn sleepy in here lately. So I bring forth....

The Spendor Harbeth Manifesto:

The opinions and views here put forth reflect no one's but MY OWN:

1) There is no “better”:
Solid State, Tube, Electrostatic, Horn, Cone, Active, Ported, Sealed, Ribbon, Vinyl, CD, Silver, Copper, etc all are valid.

It’s what you prefer.

2) If you have not heard a component, speaker, cable, or tweak…you DON’T have an opinion.


3) Some general observations about Audiophiles

a) They talk a lot. A lot. And they love to disagree.
b) They often like the sound their equipment makes, rather than music.
c) Many shun live rock, pop, or jazz because of “bad sounding” PA systems.
d) They love to obsess about specs. They love to listen to specs.

Audiophile: “I just downloaded a killer 192Khz/24 bit album from XYZ.com…!” Co worker: ”How is the music?” Audiophile: “Huh?” Who cares, it’s High Resolution!”.

e) They love to have opinions on OTHER people’s systems and rooms.

Some absolutely true encounters:

One audiophile listening for exactly 30 seconds to my system then bellowing…”Yeh, boy have you got some room and set up problems!”….

One audiophile giving me a lecture on what type of fibers should be in the carpet in front of my system.

One audiophile telling me that If I don’t have my cables elevated with expensive contraptions that reduce “cable/carpet interaction” I was an idiot.

4) Some general observations about the audio press and critics:

a) Unfortunately, they don’t make money from subscriptions, hence reader not always served. Mostly, but not always.
b) Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion, they should review a products in the mindset of the prospective buyer.
c) The audio press is generally populated by middle aged (plus) white males. It is what it is, I just think a more diverse spread would be interesting to get different points of view.

Bad Things Audiophiles have brought upon us:

1) Audiophile recordings.
2) Expensive, sonically inconsequential tweaks. No, I don’t mean power cords and isolation devices.
3) Children deprived of college tuition money.
4) Wives with no vacations.


Enjoy, and feel free to add anything I left out.
"...cables elevated with expensive contraptions ..." I have a house full of those things..., posted on November 5, 2009 at 11:11:24
J. S. Bach
Audiophile

Posts: 6607
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Joined: November 28, 2001
Contributor
  Since: June 29, 2004
 ...as I have collected insulators for many years. I would never have thought about using them for cable supports; unless I just wanted to display them doing what they were designed to do: holding wires.




Dave
Later Gator,

Crank up your talking machine, grab a jar of your favorite "kick-back", sit down, relax, and let the go
You forgot to mention the Monsters from the Id..., posted on November 5, 2009 at 03:16:44
Abel McCain
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Location: Rocky Mountains, USA
Joined: November 19, 2005
 Part of the reason why we cannot all agree on what sounds best is because we are basically very jealous creatures - somewhat reminiscent of the ancient Krell people. Countless hours of worrying and tweaking eventually result in enhanced egos that soon become unwieldy. The unconscious desire to manipulate the electrons in other peoples systems soon becomes uncontrollable. This is the real reason why we cannot agree on what sounds good.

Oohhh, I like that image...., posted on November 5, 2009 at 18:36:41
JimL
Audiophile

Posts: 3347
Location: New Mexico
Joined: November 24, 2002
 of manipulating electrons in other people's systems. :-D

It's all part of life's rich pageant... (nt), posted on November 5, 2009 at 19:39:21
Abel McCain
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Location: Rocky Mountains, USA
Joined: November 19, 2005
 .

RE: You forgot to mention the Monsters from the Id..., posted on November 5, 2009 at 04:02:00
lord addleford
Audiophile

Posts: 336
Location: new england
Joined: July 5, 2005
Contributor
  Since: April 11, 2006
 you are on to something. is the super ego represented by the "countless hours of worrying..."? since we can not a integrate into our consciousness "being very jealous creatures..." we repress those terrible, essentially guilty feelings, which are super ego manifestations which then are expressed as ego and aggression(rage)?
You've never seen "Forbidden Planet"?, posted on November 5, 2009 at 16:46:12
Abel McCain
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Location: Rocky Mountains, USA
Joined: November 19, 2005
 Dude I am not making this stuff up, I meant it as a joke (but hell, you may be right for all I know). The original title of the movie was "Monsters from the Id".

What's in a name?, posted on November 4, 2009 at 18:41:34
keith_d
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Joined: June 15, 2002
 Abhor The Nerds

versus

Brash Peed Thorn.

I don't see a significant difference in content.
Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 4, 2009 at 12:58:48
Enophile
Audiophile

Posts: 7139
Location: Las Vegas
Joined: October 15, 2005
 "Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion, they should review a products in the mindset of the prospective buyer."

Prospective buyers don't inject personal idsyncracies?

Wow.

How do prospective buyers do things?
RE: Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 4, 2009 at 16:36:04
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Prospective buyers look at (real) value for money paid, unless they are some sort of trustafarian and don't care, and not some insane, fictitious method, like calling 89K speakers a "good deal"...(see JV's M5 review).




RE: Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 5, 2009 at 09:36:48
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 1500
Joined: August 9, 2001
 "Prospective buyers look at (real) value for money paid, unless they are some sort of trustafarian and don't care, and not some insane, fictitious method, like calling 89K speakers a "good deal"...(see JV's M5 review)."

In a nutshell this is how you're representing yourself. The self-anointed conscience of the proverbial well-heeled perspective buyer.

Insulting their judgment is no way to gain their trust. You have financial insecurities. You are passionate about it. Okay, we get it.

Does it make you an expert on valuing products that are beyond your means to comprehend? No, your biases will fluctuate with your bank account. It is also difficult to accept the inference that such personal issues are unique to audio or audiophiles.

RE: Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 5, 2009 at 09:44:42
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Beyond my means to comprehend??? By what measure? Wallet or ears?

RE: Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 5, 2009 at 12:01:00
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 1500
Joined: August 9, 2001
 I thought the question was answered in the following sentence, "No, your biases will fluctuate with your bank account."

As such, my measure is your biases disallow separation of wallet and ears.

RE: Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 5, 2009 at 12:33:54
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Good reply Soulfood. Yes and Yes.

On a side note, I am very fortunate and I can afford pretty much any system within reason, but I may be rich, but I ain't stupid. Some internal voice just does not allow me to spend as much as a top of the line luxury car on a pair speakers or amps.

That is not to say I won't spend what I need to.

Take a listen to the Manley Mahi monoblocks ($2500 a pair) and you the entire paradigm may shift in your head. It did for me. And I have heard the best from Krell, Boulder, Ayre, ARC, CJ, and more.

RE: Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 5, 2009 at 19:34:19
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 1500
Joined: August 9, 2001
 "Some internal voice just does not allow me to spend as much as a top of the line luxury car on a pair speakers or amps."

Exactly. your internal voice is not an universal voice of reason. Judging from your reply we may not agree to how financial insecurity is projected and perceived.

So, $90,000 speakers are affordable but the notion of reviewing or acquiring them is insane?

RE: Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 5, 2009 at 21:37:05
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Acquire and review away. But call it for what it is. A "good deal"? No.

A fabulous speaker for a multi-millionare? Yes.

Just how many Wilson Alexandrias or Magico M5's do they sell a year? I'm actually curious. I'd guess a dozen, if they are luck. I may be off.

And if, in Valin's opinion,..., posted on November 6, 2009 at 10:04:28
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 15929
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 28, 2003
 ...the M5s sound better than the Alexandrias at half the price, or any other more expensive loudspeaker, how does that not make them a good value?

And as to whether the M5s are overpriced, if you read the interview with Alan wolf, you would realize all of the innovative designs and materials, as well as new drivers he has developed for this loudspeaker.

They may in fact be a bargain...

RE: And if, in Valin's opinion,..., posted on November 6, 2009 at 10:23:31
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Because, Dave Wilson, who I have met and is brilliant, wrote a wonderful play in which the Alexandrias are the star. They are priced so high, that the other stars in the play, say Sasha, and Sophia, seem "moderate".

And even stars from other products, including the M5, seem like a "good deal".

Award winning stuff.

PS, yes, I HAVE heard the them, and they are great.

RE: Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 6, 2009 at 08:21:49
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 1500
Joined: August 9, 2001
 "Just how many Wilson Alexandrias or Magico M5's do they sell a year? I'm actually curious. I'd guess a dozen, if they are luck. I may be off."

Please, don't presume to know whether those business ventures are profitable.

Here again, it is quite obvious you are unable to comprehend why the products you can't afford are ever developed. Accepting that there is a market makes considerably more sense than publicly stewing about it.

Leave that to the unknowing media and audiophile haters to explore.
RE: Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 6, 2009 at 08:32:01
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Oh dear me, you are saying I should not worry my pretty little self about such things that are over my head. Ok, I'll let, an obvious multi millionare educate me, since you are obviously part of an elite group that understands such issues.

How dare I presume to discuss the absurdity of pricing in high end audio, and how the audio press perpetuates this absurdity. I must have been out of my mind.
Violating your own manifesto...and so soon...., posted on November 5, 2009 at 09:32:42
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 15929
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 28, 2003
 >...like calling 89K speakers a "good deal"...(see JV's M5 review).>

But in your manifesto, you said:

>2) If you have not heard a component, speaker, cable, or tweak…you DON’T have an opinion.>

So how did the M5s sound when you heard them?
RE: Violating your own manifesto...and so soon...., posted on November 5, 2009 at 09:36:08
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 I am sure they sound fantastic. My comment did not pertain to their fidelity, I assure you.

But IMO, there is nothing that can justify calling a speaker at that price a good deal.

His comment shows how distorted and insular the view of many audio journalists have become.

And your comments show..., posted on November 5, 2009 at 09:39:20
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 15929
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 28, 2003
 ...what a hipocrite you are.

You haven't heard them so STFU about them, like you said.

They may be the most amazing things you've every heard, and well worth their price. A veritable bargain.

You can't have it both ways.

RE: Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 4, 2009 at 22:42:52
CSF
Audiophile

Posts: 759
Location: NSW
Joined: September 28, 2002
 How does a review work out while perception of "value" he is to measure by? Something that's not worth $5 to you may be worth $5000 to somebody else.

RE: Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 5, 2009 at 09:43:31
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Intellectual hair splitting. In the real world there are accepted notions of value.

There are products that have universally been accepted as offering superb performance for a very fair price..Grado SR-60's, Rega Apollo, Kimber Hero, etc etc etc.

What .01% of audiophiles can afford to pay for a product should not be included in the equation.

RE: Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 6, 2009 at 11:22:12
CSF
Audiophile

Posts: 759
Location: NSW
Joined: September 28, 2002
 We'll agree to disagree here as to me "accepted notions of value" aren't universal, they're related to the disposable income or desire of the individual or group. I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a car as they don't excite me or bring the pleasure into my life that music does. I would happily drop plenty of dollars on concerts, recordings and hi-fi because they make my life more enjoyable. For me a critics job is to report what they hear and use their experience to put that into some sort of context based on their experience. I have no issues with a reviewer suggesting that a $50k pair of speakers is good value to them, but I'd need to hear it for myself to confirm if it's value for me.

Cheers,

Craig.

RE: Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion..., posted on November 6, 2009 at 16:04:51
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Deal.

I agree.

But for a reviewer to say a 50k speaker is a good deal to him hardly reflects reality unless they get paid $500 per word.

Part of the critic's job is..., posted on November 4, 2009 at 14:17:50
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 15929
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 28, 2003
 ...to write entertaining stuff and sometimes their personal idiosyncrocies make for more interesting reading.

This is particularly true of columninsts, like Tellig and Dudley, even Fremer, more so than regular equipment reviewers.

>How do prosepective buyers do things?>

Other than Spend-drift here, they keep their personal idotsyncrocies to themselves.

RE: Part of the critic's job is..., posted on November 4, 2009 at 16:43:52
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Good post. One for the Mkuller.

RE: The Sendor Harbeth Manifesto, posted on November 4, 2009 at 12:57:53
lord addleford
Audiophile

Posts: 336
Location: new england
Joined: July 5, 2005
Contributor
  Since: April 11, 2006
 spen-har, you are a very funny guy. a "manifesto"? your latest post hardly hardly constitutes more than "talking points". regardless. you have a well-honed ability to stir-up the inmates to a froth. for this you deserve credit and an special notice as an provocateur par excellance! the hew, outcry and over the top reactions you provoke from a host of inmates resembles the pain and outrage felt when dentist's probe makes contact with an exposed nerve.

when i return from a day at work, i look forward to your postings. i really do, cause i know, as day follows night, your anti-claque will mobilize and i can laugh my ass off.

RE: The Sendor Harbeth Manifesto, posted on November 4, 2009 at 08:25:37
jult52
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Location: Philadelphia
Joined: May 27, 2009
 Funny. Thanks for making me laugh.

RE: The Sendor Harbeth Manifesto, posted on November 4, 2009 at 08:17:03
Diode
Audiophile

Posts: 310
Location: SE Wis
Joined: September 11, 2005
 I generally agree with what was said, but I do have a couple of comments:

""The audio press is generally populated by middle aged (plus) white males. It is what it is, I just think a more diverse spread would be interesting to get different points of view.""

There's really nothing new under the sun and just about every viewpoint imaginable has already been postulated by those middle-aged white males in the audio press, so I'm not really understanding what new/different point of view that someone who isn't white or male or middle-aged would bring to the table.

""Bad Things Audiophiles have brought upon us:
3) Children deprived of college tuition money.
4) Wives with no vacations.""

3) Do you have personal knowledge of some children (plural) that were deprived of college tuition money because of their parent(s) participation in the audio hobby? Or are you just making that up to be cute?
And of my friends that went to college, the one's that seem to feel the most fulfilled over their educations are the one's that worked their way through school, so should college tuition money be considered an entitlement or right that every child deserves?

4) Do you have personal knowledge of some wives that were deprived of vacations because of their husband's devotion to the audio hobby, or are you just making that up?

but these stories are all TRUE!, posted on November 4, 2009 at 15:05:48
Metralla
Audiophile

Posts: 6413
Location: San Jose, California
Joined: January 30, 2001
 Sendor told us so. I was a little skeptical, but now I'm a believer.

Regards,
Geoff
RE: The Sendor Harbeth Manifesto, posted on November 3, 2009 at 20:24:39
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 815
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 Hey this is a game, a hobby, not life and death. You tkae it too seriously. If all these people 'who do not know what they are saying' bug you so much, ignore them. You seem to think they are a corrupting influence so why do you waste your time?

RE: The Sendor Harbeth Manifesto, posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:00:11
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 22046
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 1) There is no “better”:
Solid State, Tube, Electrostatic, Horn, Cone, Active, Ported, Sealed, Ribbon, Vinyl, CD, Silver, Copper, etc all are valid.

It’s what you prefer.

Unless it's a CD changer...............

2) If you have not heard a component, speaker, cable, or tweak…you DON’T have an opinion.

Unless it's a CD changer............

3) Some general observations about Audiophiles

a) They talk a lot. A lot. And they love to disagree.

True, but not unique to audiophiles...........

b) They often like the sound their equipment makes, rather than music.

It's a stereotype that I'm afraid is virtually non-existent in reality.

c) Many shun live rock, pop, or jazz because of “bad sounding” PA systems.

I cannot speak for others, but I'll always go for a well-recorded live album, if that's an option. I think rockers show their real stuff in concert. And unless the sound is horrid, I'll take the live event every time.

d) They love to obsess about specs. They love to listen to specs.

Maybe the so called "objectivists", but otherwise, once again, virtually non-existent in reality.

Audiophile: “I just downloaded a killer 192Khz/24 bit album from XYZ.com…!” Co worker: ”How is the music?” Audiophile: “Huh?” Who cares, it’s High Resolution!”.

Where do you get these stereotypical stories from?

e) They love to have opinions on OTHER people’s systems and rooms.

Including CD changers they've never heard...........

Some absolutely true encounters:

One audiophile listening for exactly 30 seconds to my system then bellowing…”Yeh, boy have you got some room and set up problems!”….

They'll hear anomalies for the first time........... Such comments should never be taken personally.

One audiophile giving me a lecture on what type of fibers should be in the carpet in front of my system.

Now that I think was made-up........

One audiophile telling me that If I don’t have my cables elevated with expensive contraptions that reduce “cable/carpet interaction” I was an idiot.

I'd ask him, can you *explain* this "cable/carpet interaction?".........

4) Some general observations about the audio press and critics:

a) Unfortunately, they don’t make money from subscriptions, hence reader not always served. Mostly, but not always.

Agreed, but I think you're stating the obvious..........

b) Critics inject way too much of their personal idiosyncrocies into reviews. In my personal opinion, they should review a products in the mindset of the prospective buyer.

You have a good point there...........

c) The audio press is generally populated by middle aged (plus) white males. It is what it is, I just think a more diverse spread would be interesting to get different points of view.

When I read a review, it's usually by someone who I've never seen a picture of............

Bad Things Audiophiles have brought upon us:

1) Audiophile recordings.

Agreed...... Most sound no better than commercial recordings.

2) Expensive, sonically inconsequential tweaks. No, I don’t mean power cords and isolation devices.

You might as well include them...... Most of them IMO don't work..........

3) Children deprived of college tuition money.

Now that would be a shame, if such situation exists............

4) Wives with no vacations.

Only if the wives in such cases are weak-minded in their budget discussions..............


Necessary addition to CRITICS criticism, posted on November 3, 2009 at 18:59:15
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 723
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 Unless you have read a CRITIC's opinions for a year or so, until you learn their biases, what can you learn from them at all?

Like an editorial writer, you do not just pick up a publication, read an OPINION piece, and think THERE IS THE TRUTH!

Without familiarity with the critic, his writings are useless and the reader STUPID to think they have learned anything from the article.

We should want the critic to show his bias, that is how a critic is HONEST with you. This parallels the absurdity of unbiased "journalism" in the USA. Give me a biased (honest) writer any time. I know what he means because I have learned his biases. When he tries to hide his biases he is a liar.

Welcome strong opinions from a writer but know what they have written in the past and know how it fits in with your view of the subject and the world.

Other than that, I have nothing to add to Todd's rebuttal.

Rick McInnis

Yes.............................., posted on November 3, 2009 at 19:23:54
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 7158
Joined: June 5, 2002
 I got my first reviewing job with a music magazine after reading their first issue. They intended to cover every music event in NYC and, as a result, the tabloid was packed with small, 2-3 column-inch notices without by-lines. I wrote to the editor (whom I knew) and said that reviews without attribution are of minimal value and a questionable business practice. The first because, as an opinion, it only has value in the biased context of particular reviewer and we can only evaluate that with continued exposure to identified reviews. The latter because, without specific attribution, the editor, the publisher and, perhaps, the investors encumber general responsibility for opinion and any legal ramifications.

They found room for the by-lines in second issue and I got to review lots of concerts.

Kal
RE: The Sendor Harbeth Manifesto, posted on November 3, 2009 at 17:52:43
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Well, I HAVE owned and heard many cd changers. AND done direct comparisons. So....eh. Wrong on that one.

Carpet fiber story is ABSOLUTELY true!

Don't agree about Iso and Power Cables. They do change the sound IMO. Its just up to the user to spend wisely.

"Where do you get these stereotypical stories from?", posted on November 3, 2009 at 17:27:51
Metralla
Audiophile

Posts: 6413
Location: San Jose, California
Joined: January 30, 2001
 Like all stereotypical stories, they are made up. No one really knows that audiophile with a world-class system and three Pat Barber SACDs. Many people come out with these silly stories and wind them up. It's just rubbish.

Regards,
Geoff
RE: "Where do you get these stereotypical stories from?", posted on November 3, 2009 at 17:54:02
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 All stories ABSOLUTELY true. I'm not kidding.

A work in progress., posted on November 3, 2009 at 15:08:26
Larry I
Audiophile

Posts: 1242
Joined: June 28, 2000
Contributor
  Since: June 28, 2000
 Doesn't everyone recognize the importance of this work? Spendor Harbeth is the Martin Luther of Audiophile land and he is in the process of pinning his 95 feces to this bulletin board.

I know why there's so much controversy and hostility ... we listen to wrong music., posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:24:33
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 If only we just included some soothing, calming music in our daily musical diet - everybody and everything would be so much nicer around here...

Like at this link below, for instance.

Thats because the Moderators let it happen nt, posted on November 5, 2009 at 05:42:31
Randall
Dealer

Posts: 257
Location: Colorado
Joined: January 5, 2000
 nt
Enjoy
Randall
Thanks....... I Needed That................, posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:20:03
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 22046
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 A little death metal in moderation has never harmed anyone...........


Yeah, can be tough to take whole 40-min album at one shot, at 95-98 dB average. N/T, posted on November 4, 2009 at 08:37:17
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 N/T

My definition of "in moderation" is 2 seconds, posted on November 3, 2009 at 17:29:25
Metralla
Audiophile

Posts: 6413
Location: San Jose, California
Joined: January 30, 2001
 I don't need that noise in my life.

Regards,
Geoff
RE: My definition of "in moderation" is 2 seconds, posted on November 4, 2009 at 07:47:06
Sunya
Audiophile

Posts: 386
Joined: July 11, 2007
 My washing machine sounds better.

Does it have its own Myspace page, so we could confirm? N/T, posted on November 4, 2009 at 10:43:14
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 N/T

No need...., posted on November 4, 2009 at 12:35:15
Sunya
Audiophile

Posts: 386
Joined: July 11, 2007
 ..it sounds like every other washing machine, although it has a higher than average SNR; just listen to your own washing machine and you'll feel the difference, it's like the transition from P Diddy to Mozart.

Oh,I don't know., posted on November 3, 2009 at 18:33:44
mark111
Audiophile

Posts: 3102
Joined: April 12, 2002
 The growling and cursing are kinda funny.They're so cute at that age.
enjoy,
mark

Give me a 'P', posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:13:54
Metralla
Audiophile

Posts: 6413
Location: San Jose, California
Joined: January 30, 2001
 The Spendor Harbeth Manifesto. Slightly embarrassing, wasn't it?

Regards,
Geoff
RE: Give me a 'P', posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:01:52
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 22046
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 I have a mild form of dyslexia, and didn't notice the typo until reading your post...........


RE: Give me a 'P', posted on November 3, 2009 at 15:28:30
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 oooPPPPPs.

Non audiophile manifestos are not new., posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:08:49
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 1500
Joined: August 9, 2001
 I'm not sure if you are tempting fate or just no sense of history. Perhaps you're not aware that you've been activated. Is, "It's been too damn sleepy in here lately.” some sort of sleeper cell code?

Don't feed the troll...it thrives on it...(nt), posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:40:17
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 15929
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 28, 2003
 (nt)

Bad forum selection ..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:36:42
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: November 22, 2003
 General is mostly for the "growed-ups" ... so you should at least attempt to fake it.

Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
RE: Bad forum selection ..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:39:33
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 This message has been moved to a more appropriate venue.
The legacy of Richard BassNut Greene lives on (in the sense of persistence). Anyway, ..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:32:15
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 ... several disagreements:

>>2) If you have not heard a component, speaker, cable, or tweak…you DON’T have an opinion.

I do - the same reason I have an opinion on Chevy Aveo without ever driving one, or the reason I never buy any American-made butter, not having tried all the brands.

>>One audiophile listening for exactly 30 seconds to my system then bellowing…”Yeh, boy have you got some room and set up problems!”….

It would probably take me 10 seconds, provided the recording was familiar.

>>idiosyncrocies

Not to be nit-picking ... but it's 2 mistakes in one word.

>>Bad Things Audiophiles have brought upon us:

The worst thing they brought upon us is, in my opinion, anti-audiophiles.

RE: The legacy of Richard BassNut Greene lives on (in the sense of persistence). Anyway, ..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:48:08
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Respect your disagreements.

My answers:

">>2) If you have not heard a component, speaker, cable, or tweak…you DON’T have an opinion.

I do - the same reason I have an opinion on Chevy Aveo without ever driving one, or the reason I never buy any American-made butter, not having tried all the brands."

I respectfully, say B.S.

You just legitimized my post.

">>One audiophile listening for exactly 30 seconds to my system then bellowing…”Yeh, boy have you got some room and set up problems!”….

It would probably take me 10 seconds, provided the recording was familiar."

Again, respectfully, B.S. You are not that good.

Lastly, yes, that word really got me!

What? You're not speaking on behalf of Spendor and Harbeth?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:15:42
Bruce Kendall
Dealer

Posts: 26637
Location: SoCal
Joined: February 4, 2005
Contributor
  Since: February 4, 2005
 Nice work, by the way. That looks like a half box of wine post to me, but if it took more I can certainly understand. But I can't figure out why you left out some of the more obvious things "we" do.

Don't "we" like to be repetitively repetitive? Don't "we" like to continually complain about the music Stereophile uses in reviews? And last but not least, don't "we" enjoy being irritated by Stereophile columnists who express opinions about musicians and their work?

[Sigh] Perhaps I am just being picky, because that was a very nice treatise. What we've been waiting for, however, is the official Spendor Harbeth list of music and artists we are allowed to criticize. C'mon, we're dying on the vine here.



RE: What? You're not speaking on behalf of Spendor and Harbeth?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:28:11
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 A big YES to all!!!!!!!!!!!

And there will be no list Dear Sir. I don't believe any (real, I'm not including DJs and sample mixers) musicians should be criticized. As inevitably, you will be insulting a particular group who gets enjoyment from that artist.

If you toss off an off the cuff demeaning remark about Celine Dion, Metallica, Prince, or Fall Out Boy, or WHO-M EVER, someone will feel slighted by a smug audio journalist. If you have nothing nice to say.....errr...reviewing components should be job #1.

Give him (them?) a break Bruce. We've had both a Masterpiece AND a Manifesto from him (them?), posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:24:14
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 6371
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 in the just the last couple days.

He (they?) are probably a bit (long?) winded!

Besides, it may have been the last half of the box.

He (they?) may have to take a break to do some shopping.

“ Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination. ” -Michael McClure
ENOUGH said, posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:06:08
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 9503
Location: shaky sylmar calif, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 no further comment needed.

...regards...tr

Whiners Woad would be a better place for this (nt), posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:04:52
Iron Knee
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Middle Florida
Joined: May 17, 2009
 .

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, posted on November 3, 2009 at 12:11:43
Chris O
Audiophile

Posts: 3060
Location: Memphis, TN
Joined: March 22, 2002
 My stereo is better than your stereo.

___
Long Live Dr.Gizmo
RE: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:17:49
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 NO it is not!!!!!!!!! Well, maybe.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ... You were short some zzzzzzzzzzzz...N/T, posted on November 3, 2009 at 12:15:04
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 6371
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 N/T

“ Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination. ” -Michael McClure
Did you look under the sofa? Found a couple more - zzzz. Damn things are like rabbits. nt, posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:03:14
free.ranger
Audiophile

Posts: 5278
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Joined: April 8, 2004
Contributor
  Since: January 7, 2005

"Damn things are like rabbits." They are with that particular manifeszzzzzzzzzz...N/T, posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:06:08
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 6371
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 N/T
“ Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination. ” -Michael McClure
RE: "Damn things are like rabbits." They are with that particular manifeszzzzzzzzzz...N/T, posted on November 8, 2009 at 05:26:43
jimdgoulding@yahoo.com
Manufacturer

Posts: 287
Location: Le workshop
Joined: May 24, 2007
 Middle class buyers resent the escalation of pricing. Upper class buyers defend their purchases. Manufacturers and dealers want to be successful. The most successful of them move product. At the core may be or may have been the love of music but on the sales end, business is business and ya can’t stand still. The same applies to the audio media. A manufacturer wants to get featured in the media. And the media needs new product to entertain readers. Those of us around in the 70’s remember magazines, journals in those days, that didn’t accept advertising. And it was a much smaller industry then. Those journals survived while the slick mags went away. That was then. Today, they have morphed into the slick magazines themselves. I am a subscriber and enjoy good writing about my passion.

I think the pursuit of value is rewarding on different levels, SH mentioned the Manley Mani monoblocks, but this is not what drives many hobbyists. Some want the latest and the allegedly greatest and can afford it. I believe it is this tier in the market that excites manufacturers, dealers, and the media the most (for mixed reasons). Middle class buyers can’t afford to keep up. We have to be smart. But, try and tell, or imply, to others that they are not smart, well, you get arguments like this.

I know a guy who drives some Daedalus 1.1 speaks with those Manley’s amps and a VTL pre. He uses a Linn table (remember the LP12?) and arm with a Benz Micro Glider SM cartridge. He has spent some disproportionate bucks on his MIT cabling and power conditioning (the latest thing for fanatics). I don’t believe he uses resonators in his room, however. He is what I would basically call a value buyer tho he does not want for good sound or staging, friends. I consider myself in this camp. Were I to have a windfall somehow, would I jump back into the latest and the greatest game? No, my sense of things, I won’t call it wisdom, wouldn’t allow it. Is my sense of things necessitated by my income? Age? Surely it is to include what is in the present, however, what I hear when I sit and listen. But, I am not the target market nor should I be if the industry wants to be successful.

What I hear SH saying is that the present day market and its subscribers don’t have his appreciation of value. That’s something that a person cultivates unless it is being cultivated for him. It is the latter he suspects you are victim to. The nouveau riche and guys who reward themselves are predominately driving the market, old sport, and they always will. ANY industry will accommodate. And the more visibility about what they make and their name, the better they make out.

Reviewers need to be idiosyncratic, thank you. Makes them more entertaining, don't ya think?

RE: "Damn things are like rabbits." They are with that particular manifeszzzzzzzzzz...N/T, posted on November 8, 2009 at 08:58:56
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 A most intelligent post sir. Well done.

I will add one more thing to my overview...how many other industries have a built in dealer mark up of 40%?

How many products sell for 5x their original production cost.

Not many. I worked in manufacturing. 90% of industries out there survive on razor thin margins and volume.

RE: "Damn things are like rabbits." They are with that particular manifeszzzzzzzzzz...N/T, posted on November 8, 2009 at 13:21:44
jimdgoulding@yahoo.com
Manufacturer

Posts: 287
Location: Le workshop
Joined: May 24, 2007
 I enjoyed Abel McCain's replies above. I get the feeling the Mkuller is a high end dealer.

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