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R.E.M. (Or maybe other WMG?) DVD-As: Layer separation / degradation problem

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Posted on June 10, 2011 at 21:55:39
tcp100
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Southeast US
Joined: June 10, 2011
 First post here, but have been a lurker for a while. Finally found the need to post due to an issue I found, sorry for jumping right in here!

Here's the issue: I've had the entire collection of the R.E.M. CD+DVDA digipaks (published by WMG) for several years now. Last week, I was going through and cataloging all of my DVDAs and I found a very worrying problem with several of these discs - and the problem seems to be not limited to just one title or copy.

On each problem disc, the problem was pretty much the same: On the Stereo Hi-Res title of the disc, severe read problems would crop up on the latter tracks of the title. The track would either freeze up my player completely, or start skipping as if you were holding down the forward button on a CD player.

The most worrying thing is that with the latest title from this series, R.E.M's Around the Sun, I have now been through THREE copies from THREE different distributors (Direct from REMHQ, Amazon, and Elusive Disc) and they all have the IDENTICAL issue, albeit not in the exact same spot (but pretty close). Here are the problems I've found:

R.E.M. Out of Time: No problems so far.

R.E.M. Automatic for the People: No problems so far

R.E.M. Green - Copy 1 (from Amazon): Could not read tracks 8 or 9 of Stereo program. Disc looked physically perfect.

R.E.M. Green - Copy 2 (from Elusivedisc, bought this month): Reads OK, but a strange haze on the disc.

R.E.M. Monster - Copy 1 (from Amazon, bought '08): Could not read end of track 8 of Stereo program. Disc looked physically perfect. I took this to a friend of mine who does some work in DVD duplication and has some analyzing equipment; his verifier gave a message that said "Cannot find target focal length" on layer 2.

R.E.M. Monster - Copy 2 (from Amazon, bought this month, replaced bad copy): So far, OK

R.E.M. Reveal: So far, OK
R.E.M. Up: So far, OK

R.E.M. Around The Sun - Copy 1: Could not read track 5 of Stereo program. Disc looked physically perfect. (REM HQ, bought '08)

R.E.M. Around The Sun - Copy 2: Could not read track 8 of Stereo program. Disc had an obvious greenish tint at edge of half of the disc. (Amazon, bought this month.)

R.E.M. Around The Sun - Copy 3: Could not read track 9 of Stereo program. Disc has a brownish/gold tint at edge of half of the disc (Elusivedisc, bought this month.)

I have tried all these discs on the following equipment with the same results:

-Denon DVD-2930ci
-Denon DVD-758 (x2)
-Onkyo CSV-720 Mini system

-LG GGW-H20L PC Drive
-LG GGW-H20C PC Drive
-Sony DRU-190A PC Drive

I'm not sure where to go next, exactly. I'm hesitant to try any other copies, and I'm a bit worried that this may be something throughout all these releases (Or even other Warner discs) that's not known yet.

The only thing I can see that's common through these discs is that they're dual-layer.

None of my other DVD-Audio discs (About 50) showed any such problems - only these Warner releases.

Has anyone else seen this?

 

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RE: R.E.M. (Or maybe other WMG?) DVD-As: Layer separation / degradation problem, posted on June 12, 2011 at 09:59:42
cfraser
Audiophile

Posts: 2587
Location: Pickering, Ontario
Joined: April 30, 2000
 I have not noticed this on my DVD-As. But I will check my older Warners ones later today JIC. I have never even seen anyone discuss "DVD-A rot" specifically, though "DVD rot" is well-known so it's not really surprising DVD-A rot (or whatever...a gradual shift to unplayability) should be out there.

But there is another vaguely similar, and possibly related, topic going around the web relatively recently. It has to do with mostly *dual layer* HD-DVDs. The Warner ones, and almost exclusively theirs, are developing severe playback problems now. [HD-DVDs aren't that old, but the format is a helluva lot more "dead" than DVD-A market-wise, if there are levels of deadness, but I bet more people are out there regularly playing more HD-DVDs than DVD-As. HD-DVDs for the most part are very good, and cost peanuts after WB bailed.]

Though the media are different, they are (perhaps obviously) *much* more technically similar than DVD and BD are (why HD-DVD was preferred over BD by some companies: existing manufacturing capability) and they *may* use some similar manufacturing technology in both of them that is the problem. For instance, Universal had lots of issues with the glue they used to join dual-sided discs together (since allegedly improved for current hybrids...a few years will show). Not glue in these DVD-As, but I'm just saying there could be some technology these WB discs share that is causing them to prematurely get effed...and you may want to check out those HD-DVD threads (lots in Germany, but English) to see what they're saying now as I haven't kept up on it for a couple weeks.

 

RE: R.E.M. (Or maybe other WMG?) DVD-As: Layer separation / degradation problem, posted on June 13, 2011 at 08:05:44
tcp100
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Southeast US
Joined: June 10, 2011
 Oy. That's not good; I have a lot of HD-DVD too. :(

I've been checking these discs on every player I have - fails on every single one.

It's clearly a case of either a progressive rot, or something bad from the get-go.

Not good news, but not sure if there's much that can be done about it? WMG just gives an address to mail discs to, and says basically you'll get a replacement in 6-8 weeks, no other information.

 

RE: R.E.M. (Or maybe other WMG?) DVD-As: Layer separation / degradation problem, posted on June 13, 2011 at 14:22:50
radiodaddy
Audiophile

Posts: 1070
Location: New Jersey
Joined: August 13, 2003
 Thanks for the word. I'll try out my WB DVD-As, esp the REMs, later. Seriously doubt the place you got it from has anything to do with it - they were probably all manufactured at the same factory, possibly in the same run(s). It's not like they were moving Gaga numbers on 'em.

I wouldn't hold my breath on returning it to the manufacturer. Don't think they have any replaccements sitting in a warehouse.

 

RE: R.E.M. (Or maybe other WMG?) DVD-As: Layer separation / degradation problem, posted on June 14, 2011 at 11:55:05
cfraser
Audiophile

Posts: 2587
Location: Pickering, Ontario
Joined: April 30, 2000
 The rot problem for DVD-As is more affecting because replacements aren't usually easily available. I have very recently played all my favorite DVD-As with no probs, and all my faves (and most expensive to replace) just happen to be WB. Yikes...

As for HD-DVDs, at least if you're in the U.S., Warner will exchange the HD-DVDs for BDs where titles available.

 

RE: R.E.M. (Or maybe other WMG?) DVD-As: Layer separation / degradation problem, posted on July 28, 2011 at 06:05:53
Monchi
Audiophile

Posts: 469
Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: June 4, 2007
 I am very interested in your post! I use the Ayre C5xeMP for DVD-A replay. On my copy of 'Around the Sun' on the track (Stereo Layer) 'The Outsiders', the player stops abruptly after Q Tip's vocal (3.41 to be exact) and the player just stops operating and I cannot get it going again unless I unload the disc, turn the player off and start again. The Ayre will not play this DVD-A beyond 3.41 on Track 3???

I have a Pioneer DVD player on which the disc plays right through in stereo mode or 5.1 without any problem. My REM DVD-A/CD digi-pack is the U.S. issue purchased from Elusive Disc earlier this year.

I have a feeling that there may be a problem with another one of the REM DVD-A/CD titles also but I haven't tried it recently.

I would love to know what the problem is. I posted a message on another forum here at AA hoping that Charlie Hansen might have an opinion, but he seems to be 'absent' at present. Well, I guess it is vacation season.

I have a small problem with Nanci Griffith's 'True Believers' Classic DAD, the Ayre cuts off the last few seconds of track 2 and so does the Pioneer DVD player.

 

RE: R.E.M. (Or maybe other WMG?) DVD-As: Layer separation / degradation problem, posted on July 29, 2011 at 00:57:20
tcp100
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Southeast US
Joined: June 10, 2011
 Monchi,

I am now on my 4th copy of Around the Sun. I finally got one that worked - but had to have it shipped overseas as it was an EU pressing. This one does not seem to have the problems my other three US pressings had.

The things I've found in common is that they're all dual layer discs, US pressings by WMG. The interesting thing is that I have several HD-DVD discs (as another poster alluded to) from Warner which seem to have similar markings (and therefore maybe made on the same line, as HD-DVD could use DVD production equipment) that are failing in the same way - the disc can't be read a bit after the layer break.

I'm gong out on a limb here, but I am fully convinced that there is a non-isolated problem with Warner produced dual-layer discs of several formats produced between 2005-2007. It appears to me that the problem is in the layer bonding material, as some discs show visible discoloration.

I have in my possession 11 discs - 6 DVD-a, 5 HD-DVD, that are unreadable after the layer break. They are ALL Warner. I have MANY other discs from different manufacturers and NONE exhibit this problem. I can say this with confidence since I recently spent 2 weeks ripping and archiving all of my DVDs, HD-DVDs, and DVD-A's. Over 400 discs in all. Only a minority of them are Warner, but a good 30% of my Warner discs are bad.

Unfortunately, I don't know what can be done about this. Most people won't see it because the stereo mix is usually on layer 2, and most folks I think listen to 5.1. That, and you can't detect this by skipping around - you have to listen to the whole disc or rip it.

I doubt the DVD-A market has much pull in WMG, so their standard line of "send it in, we'll try and replace it" is about the best we'll get. Unfortunately, as I've seen, replacement doesn't always help.

All that being said, I have had good luck with the EU-manufactured versions as I said above, so this may be the best answer. Unfortunately this means re-buying titles and trying to verify the version you get.

I can't believe this problem is "just me" and that it's not known by Warner. I'd love to hear from someone at WMG. Until then, I am avoiding the purchase of any Warner Music Group products, and would encourage others to do the same - since they may be still using this process, and it seems that the problems take 3-4 years to appear.

 

My WMG Jackson Browne DVD-A just died in this manner., posted on October 31, 2011 at 14:08:29
Michi
Industry Professional

Posts: 2328
Location: colorado
Joined: November 23, 2001
 WMG Jackson Browne "Running on Empty" DVD-A in cd/dvd digipak - won't play past the layer break.

Same packaging and pressing indications as my REM discs which, are still playing, but I'm guessing will not forever.

It would be great if WMG would address this but I'm sure they won't; they consider the format dead and probably figure you got your money's worth out of it, in their opinion.

It's a shame that some of these discs are getting hard to find and even buying new likely will just result in the same trouble. No place else to get these recordings in 5.1 or hi-rez, either.

 

Now my Doors "Perception" discs are becoming unreadable., posted on November 16, 2011 at 13:42:50
Michi
Industry Professional

Posts: 2328
Location: colorado
Joined: November 23, 2001
 Original Doors "Perception" CD+DVDA box set, all but "LA Woman" are unreadable near the layer break.

No luck whatsoever getting a response from Rhino/Warner so far.

 

RE: Now my Doors "Perception" discs are becoming unreadable., posted on November 28, 2011 at 22:06:29
Michi
Industry Professional

Posts: 2328
Location: colorado
Joined: November 23, 2001
 Wrote to WMG and Rhino (3 addresses total) last week via email about this.. Not a single reply, not even a form letter.

 

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