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Why so few Tube Dacs?

75.131.20.113
Posted on July 14, 2012 at 18:11:38
Dynobot
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 AudioNote
Monarchy
Eastern Electric
Lampizator
WaveLength
ScottNixon
Mhdt Labs
TubeMagic


Any others worth mentioning?



Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

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Aesthetix Pandora ???, posted on July 14, 2012 at 19:12:53
EmailTim
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 Anyone know anything about the Aesthetix Pandora ?

 

RE: Why so few Tube Dacs?, posted on July 15, 2012 at 00:31:38
kuma
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 Gill Audio Elise.

It was the best tube DAC I have heard.

 

RE: Why so few Tube Dacs?, posted on July 15, 2012 at 06:31:18
Dynobot
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 Looks nice.


Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

RE: Why so few Tube Dacs?, posted on July 15, 2012 at 06:39:08
knewton
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 I strongly suspect that tube output DACs exist in at least the same percentage as do tube output preamps. They may even exist in a higher percentage, in an attempt to counter some of the unpleasant aural artifacts of CD playback.
_
Ken Newton

 

After a littlel digging I found that, posted on July 15, 2012 at 06:48:37
Dynobot
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 The Monarchy NM24 Dac is actually a Lite Audio Dac60 with an added line preamp stage.

Interesting, so I guess if you only want the Dac portion of the Monarchy just buy the Lite Audio product. Same board, except the Monarchy uses Toroids and the Lite uses R-Cores. imo R-Cores might be a better choice.



Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

RE: Why so few Tube Dacs?, posted on July 15, 2012 at 06:50:13
Dynobot
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 I think you might be right about the % being roughly the same.

I would expect [due to digital effects] that tubes might be more prevalent in Dacs.


Go figure.



Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

RE: Why so few Tube Dacs?, posted on July 15, 2012 at 06:59:19
tmsorosk
 When I went to hear Audio Research's latest DAC the DAC 8, I assumed I would be demoing a tube DAC, I was shocked and surprised to find that it was all solid state. I decided to hear it back to back with there slightly older upgraded tube DAC7. The 8 was clearly superior but I was still skeptical so I contacted ARC and asked why they when solid state. They confirmed that there listening panel simple preferred the solid state unit. Maybe thats why there are few tube DAC's out there.

 

At $6 Grand it better be ! *, posted on July 15, 2012 at 08:35:26
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 nt

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From a practical standpoint..., posted on July 15, 2012 at 08:38:46
mls-stl
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 ...it's impossible to have a tube DAC where the analog portion of the signal does not spend time in a solid state device. The digital to analog conversion takes place inside of an integrated circuit and comes out as an analog signal.

If one needs tubes to "tame" the signal, why does it matter if that takes place in the DAC unit, a tube buffer or preamp?

That's not to say that some don't prefer the sound of a particular DAC with tubes in the analog line stage, but there are certainly plenty of all solid-state DACs out there that their owners prefer, even if the rest of their system is all-tube.

Audiophiles often tend to ascribe everything they hear to a single characteristic or aspect of a piece of equipment. Things are usually a bit more complex than that with respect to the way things sound.

 

RE: From a practical standpoint..., posted on July 15, 2012 at 08:54:43
Tony Lauck
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 "...it's impossible to have a tube DAC where the analog portion of the signal does not spend time in a solid state device. The digital to analog conversion takes place inside of an integrated circuit and comes out as an analog signal."

Perhaps it amounts to counting angels on the head of a pin, but the digital pulse train created by the switches in a DAC chip are just that, digital. Depending on the way the DAC is implemented, there may be no transistor in the chip that sees anything that looks like an analog audio signal. (As one example, consider a 1 bit DAC where the digital pulses come out of the chip unchanged in form from the way they were input. The analog signal appears only after this pulse train has been filtered and this could be done externally, even by passive components.)

If the I/V circuitry is inside a DAC chip (an optional mode for some) then I would agree completely with your comment.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: From a practical standpoint..., posted on July 15, 2012 at 09:00:49
Dynobot
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 >>>If the I/V circuitry is inside a DAC chip

Wouldn’t that effectively act like an opamp?



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Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

TADAC, posted on July 15, 2012 at 09:12:14
slapshot
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 The TADAC was popular a while back, but is not made any more. I've been quite happy with mine for a number of years now.

 

RE: From a practical standpoint..., posted on July 15, 2012 at 09:27:13
Tony Lauck
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 Function and mechanism are different concepts.

Converting a digital pulse train (current) to an analog signal (voltage) can be done by active or passive components. If the components are active they can be configured as op-amps or in other topologies. Incidentally, there are such things as op-amps made out of vacuum tubes. Back in 1961 I worked with an analog computer that had a few dozen op-amps, all made out of tubes.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: From a practical standpoint..., posted on July 15, 2012 at 09:30:40
mls-stl
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 >> Perhaps it amounts to counting angels on the head of a pin

That is why, when I proofread my reply, that I put the phrase "practical standpoint" in the subject line. I'm not going to spend time doing research to find if an exception exists, but I suspect strongly 99% plus of the DACs on the market use a standard IC chip from one of the regular companies in the business.

 

RE: From a practical standpoint..., posted on July 15, 2012 at 09:32:06
Dynobot
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 I think the Havana Dac although advertised as not having opamps used a Dac chip PCM56P that used internal opamps to do the I/V conversion.

Great Dac but not as resolving as some others.



Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

I also found that EA used the same board for the Spoiler Dac, posted on July 15, 2012 at 09:53:11
Dynobot
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 I guess every liked the Lite Audio Dac as a base unit to build upon.



Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

Keep in mind..., posted on July 15, 2012 at 10:21:19
mls-stl
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 ... that an opamp may be an integrated circuit, but not all integrated circuits are opamps. (Rather like "breeds" v. "dogs". All poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles.)

 

Got it...thanks!..nt, posted on July 15, 2012 at 10:23:34
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Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

RE: From a practical standpoint..., posted on July 15, 2012 at 10:33:59
Tony Lauck
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 I suspect that the DCS ring DACs use discrete circuitry for their switches. It might not be terribly difficult to reverse engineer how this works, but considering the price not something that I would want to tackle. At least one inmate, Ted Smith, has built a DAC that used a 1 bit design with digital drivers and a passive filter based on a transformer.

From reading the SABRE white paper, especially section V, it seems highly likely that there is not much (if any) active analog circuitry between the DAC switches and the chip output. The clue is the comment about the effect on distortion when used in a current mode vs. voltage mode. This is just a guess on my part. Someone who has designed a DAC based on this chip might know more. There is more detail in the patent. (US7116257)


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

The Philbrick model K2-W, the first commercial vacuum tube operational amplifier back in 1952., posted on July 15, 2012 at 12:09:30
cfb
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 History of Philbrick,

 

Many in fact; Ancient Audio and Audioaero very high-end more $$$ than AudioNote. Ancient is the only, posted on July 15, 2012 at 12:11:41
cfb
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 company that I'm aware of that has ever offered tube “mono” DACs one chassis for each channel left and right. The digital input modules are special order apparently in their Silver DAC III, part of the Air and Lektor models. The single chassis DAC from Audioaero uses sub-miniature dual triodes 6021W for the output. I think both are north of 40,000 so a bit of an academic issue.

A few contenders at the top echelon of tube DACs worldwide.
Zanden 5000s, built like a tank in the same vein as Tektronix mil-spec test equipment and that's good.

The JCF Audio DA8-V Vacuum Tube DAC; now here's a DAC that takes the vacuum tube part seriously, eight transformers and seventeen tubes, that's eight 12AU7s and eight 12AX7s plus a tube rectifier. Draws around 100 watts at idle and weighs nearly seventy pounds, heftier than some amplifiers and with a tube count greater than most preamps.

Space Tech out of Canada, has a “cost no object” 3 chassis tube DAC the DA-512X-128ASP it can even take Western Electric 300B, 45 or 2A3 tubes. About $13,000 see their lower cost entry DAC model below.

From Seoul, Korea the Solos Tropos Sarajida DAC-1, DAC-2 and DAC-3 models from $1,700 up to $8,500. A forty pound chassis, six 12AX7 tubes and Mundorf capacitors.

The Kora Hermes recently out of production but still readily found on the used market it definitely competed with the AudioNote's and at a price not so dear as the above units. At that same level, Manley Labs, The Wave DAC had the Burr-Brown PCM1704 with two 12AX7s and new old stock JAN, Joint Army Navy, 7044 tubes, ceased production last year. Supposedly, there is a new tube DAC replacement coming from Manley next year.

Other defunct DAC brands that deserve mention as they still show up on the used market; Musical Fidelity TriVista, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, California Audio Labs, Sonic Frontiers, Vacuum Tube Logic and STAX, all of which produced high end tube DACs of the past.

On to the lower cost side of things and back to current production DACs; the HLLY Tube DACs all very low cost sub $300 models straight from China. The Lite Audio DAC-60 and DAC 68 which are 24bit Vacuum Tube DACs. The Jolida FX vacuum tube DAC with 12AX7 output tubes. The Music Hall DAC 25.3 uses a single 6922 tube.

Once again from Canada but not so low cost, the Space-Tech Lab DA-64XT vacuum tube DAC. Also, the Audio by Van Alstine, Fet Valve Hybrid DAC uses 6CG7 tubes about $2,500. Audio Space Acoustic Laboratory LTD., has the DAC1US with two 6922 tubes and the new DAC2 model with its three 12AX7 tubes, priced somewhere above $3,000.

There are probably many more brands out there that I'm not aware of.

 

There are more expensive tube DACs even up to forty thousand dollars., posted on July 15, 2012 at 12:19:51
cfb
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 As I list in my above post. And that's just the ones I'm aware of, there are likely others.

 

1961Vacuum Tube Op-Amp, posted on July 15, 2012 at 12:23:16
Tony Lauck
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This ia picture of a vacuum tube op-amp from the analog computer that I used in 1961. The link has a complete description of the system and more pictures. As a 17 year old kid, I really enjoyed twirling the 10 turn precision potentiometers. :-)

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Thanks for the link! nt, posted on July 15, 2012 at 12:29:46
Tony Lauck
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Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Wow thats a lot....nt, posted on July 15, 2012 at 13:10:18
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Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

PS. left out the Jadis JS-1 MKIV Tube DAC and the Acoustic Plan DigiMaster DAC both reference, posted on July 15, 2012 at 14:11:25
cfb
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 level world class DACs. Acoustic Plan is a German company, their four tubed DAC is around $5,000.

I don't know how I could have forgotten to include the famous French company Jadis. That's like forgetting Audio Research or Conrad Johnson. Anyway, the Jadis models run from $5,000 to $20,000 and their Reference DAC would compete for world's best DAC from any manufacturer, tube or solid state.

Also, companies like the Italian firm Unison Research offer vacuum tube CD players that have USB and digital inputs and thus can be used as DACs but that is a whole other list.

 

And I would say the same thing about them also.......*, posted on July 15, 2012 at 14:53:27
Cut-Throat
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 nt

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RE: 1961Vacuum Tube Op-Amp, posted on July 15, 2012 at 17:19:13
rick_m
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 Ohhhh, sure beats the Heathkit one my H.S. Physics room had. You must have had better connections...

Rick

 

RE: 1961Vacuum Tube Op-Amp, posted on July 15, 2012 at 17:44:00
Tony Lauck
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 I got paid $1.00 per hour playing with these toys. I thought this was a much better deal than cutting the neighbors' lawns.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Why so few Tube Dacs?, posted on July 15, 2012 at 18:21:31
audioengr
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 I abandoned my TubeDAC when I realized that good tubes for it cost $450 a pair and needed replacing about every 6-12 months if you used it every day like I do. Pain in the neck. Also, even with the most exhaustive efforts to get tight bass from these tubes, they just dont match the bass of SS. The highs, yes, but not the bass.

Steve N.

 

RE: From a practical standpoint..., posted on July 16, 2012 at 17:49:34
John Swenson
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 The PCM56P has an opamp on the chip but you don't have to use it, you can connect to the current out if you wish.

I have no idea which way the Havanna did it, it can go either way.

John S.

 

The AMR...nt., posted on July 16, 2012 at 20:42:56
classfolkphile
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 nt.

 

RE: Why so few Tube Dacs?, posted on July 18, 2012 at 00:13:15
Mike Mc
 Interesting you mention the bass Steve. I have a Havana DAC, fed from S.Box Touch. They replaced a Burson modified Rotel CD player (New op-amp, clock etc, but laser fail, again!). I like the Havana, but the Rotel killed it in the bass.

I miss that punch so much I may yet invest in a SS DAC.

Too poor for your gear, but one can dream!

 

RE: Why so few Tube Dacs?, posted on July 18, 2012 at 03:08:10
Mick Wolfe
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 I don't know if anyone has mentioned the Grant Fidelity Tube DAC 11, but it seems to be getting some positive comments over at Audiocircle. It looks like a great deal for the modest asking price ( $325 or $350 ? ), but the most enthusiastic owners were not satisfied with the stock unit until it had been modified....which nearly doubled the price of course.

 

Yet more tube DACs. Just adding to the list,, posted on July 18, 2012 at 08:15:39
cfb
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 George Mark Audio's First Overture, two chassis unit uses four 6922 tubes, $6K. From a German company, MalValve, the “tubeDAC four” very serious high end unit, has sixteen tubes, weighs over 40 pounds, has outboard power supply; priced around 12,000 Euros. From the Italian company Lector Audio, the DigiCode 2.24 with Burr Brown DAC and four tube output ECC81s full balanced circuitry; has wood side panels, the style is reminiscent of another Italian company Sonus Faber. From Japan, Softone Inc., “Model_2 TUBE Digital to Analog Converter” Burr-Brown DAC, two tube output stage. And, yet another low cost unit from China, the Fournier DAC-2 one tube per channel. $250

On the defunct brand list add the AudioLogic Co. tube DAC from the late Jerry Ozment who passed away in 2010. The AudioLogic shows up on the used market from time to time.

I think we're up to or maybe over thirty brands of vacuum tube DACs by now and still counting.

 

Grant Fidelity, posted on July 22, 2012 at 13:16:45
dvb
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 I'm interested in the Grant Fidelty - but I understand the tube is really a buffer stage, which can be by-passed, so I'm not sure if everyone would consider it to be a "tube DAC".

 

Does a Dac need a tube?, posted on July 22, 2012 at 21:24:20
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These normally take the digital output and convert the signal into an analog line-level output that can then be fed into an amplifier to drive speakers. Why does a device that converts a digital code to an analog signal need a tube?
~~~
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Because DAC chips such as Wolfson, Burr-Brown, AD, are either current out or voltage out in the , posted on July 23, 2012 at 05:03:38
cfb
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 case of a current out DAC the output must go through a current to voltage conversion I/V, typically an opamp circuit. In the case of a voltage out DAC the signal still requires a buffer stage as a DAC chip cannot drive the line out directly, no power to speak of. Think of it like moving coil cartridges require a step-up and phono stage before a line level output is achieved. Actually, all DACs are current out in the case of voltage out DAC chips they simply have the I/V conversion built into the chip. In the case of commercial CD or DVD players they may have five stages or more of opamps in-between the output of the DAC chip itself and the actual RCA jack output. Those opamp circuits could be replaced with discrete transistors or in this case vacuum tubes. In the case of current out DAC chips a transformer is used for the I/V conversion and then a vacuum tube stage is used to amplify the resulting signal to a usable line level output.

 

Need vs. Want, posted on July 23, 2012 at 08:04:27
Tony Lauck
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 The output of DAC chips is small. Amplification is therefore a required function of a DAC, which must drive a line level signal. Using a vacuum tube is only one possible mechanism to achieve the amplification. One needs some amplification, but it doesn't have to come from a tube.

Some people want the noise and distortion of tubes, although this isn't the terminology that they use to describe the coloration of sound. Perhaps the noise and distortion are covering or cancelling some defect in their recordings or playback chain. One problem with many systems is that their high frequency response on axis is too flat, making many recordings excessively bright. Tubes have a higher output impedance than solid state line drivers and this combines with the capacitance of interconnect cables to provide high frequency roll-off. It is one of the inane aspects of "high end" audio that some people result to extremely expensive means to accomplish something that used to be accomplished inexpensively (e.g. with a tone control).

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Balderdash, tone controlled solid state does not and possibly will not equal vacuum tube circuits. HF has, posted on July 23, 2012 at 08:58:24
cfb
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 nothing to do with it. It's not the high frequencies that matter it's the midrange, Midrange, Midrange! That is where vacuum tube circuits sound more real and life-like, especially with vocal material, than solid state circuits ever seem able to pull off. After all, we’re not trying to trick an oscilloscope we’re trying to trick the human ear / brain auditory neural system into believing that a recording is instead a real live sound. It's all a magic act and thermionic emitters perform the prestidigitation with more finesse than a hunk of silicon.

 

RE: Balderdash, tone controlled solid state does not and possibly will not equal vacuum tube circuits. HF has, posted on July 23, 2012 at 09:17:20
Tony Lauck
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 Ideally, the DAC should produce the same output as the ADC received as input. If that input is "magic", then the output will be equally "magic". If your DAC changes the sound then you will miss out on the really magic recordings.

If you haven't made recordings then I would not expect you to understand the issues involved.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Nope, never recorded, been in the hobby 30 years and reel to reel tape plus vacuum tubes sounds more, posted on July 23, 2012 at 13:27:27
cfb
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 lifelike than even today's high resolution digital does. And, I didn't say it was magic I said it's like a magic trick, the whole point is to fool the auditory sense into believing something that is not real.

The best records from the golden age of stereo recording in the 50s were all done on tube gear. That is not to say that a quality recording could not be made today but unfortunately there is no economic incentive to do so. Also, when one starts with forty channel multi-track mixers and digital compressors the temptation to do ill is apparently too great and sound quality goes south in a hurry as over 90% of the current media market painfully demonstrates. Thank you, Theodore Sturgeon.

Lastly, all the solid state proponents disdain for vacuum tubes does not seem to have adversely affected Audio Note and Jadis sales any or for that matter the thirty other companies I listed that sell vacuum tube DACs. Plus, the fact that here we are in the second decade of the 21st century and vacuum tubes are still being made; if you had told someone that back in the 1970s they would never have believed it.

 

RE: Nope, never recorded, been in the hobby 30 years and reel to reel tape plus vacuum tubes sounds more, posted on July 23, 2012 at 14:16:12
Tony Lauck
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 I have many of these "best" recordings and they have been sonically surpassed by modern high resolution digital recordings, including those made by Reference Recordings (176/24), Water Lily Acoustics (dsd64) and Channel Classics (dsd64). Alas, the musicians (long dead) have not been surpassed.

The problem with the classic recordings is the poor S/N ratio of the tape, and/or the saturation distortion which resulted when engineers such as Lewis Layton attempted to compensate by boosting the levels. It was always easy to hear a difference between a live microphone feed and a 15 IPS tape playback of the same recording, whether solo music or the Boston Symphony Orchestra.



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

My question is..., posted on July 24, 2012 at 12:56:03
rlw
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 Why do you feel the need to add a meaningless graphic to every post you make? It serves no purpose and for the folks on slow connection it is a royal pain in the ass....Wake up, dummy.

-RW-
-RW-

 

Forward looking, posted on July 24, 2012 at 19:54:53
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I am sorry that you do not understand the need to have adequate Ram on your machine. I get the feeling that a lot of the Audio things being addressed here including but not limited to audio players, dac's, pre-amps, connections, amplifiers and even speakers. Are patches to try to bring antiquated, devices up to what is possible today. If your priorities are in order, keeping a state of the art computer will save you more time per dollar, than patching up any old audio only system. When someone in the future searches to find the answers in the data base we are laying down here, we would all be fools to optimize for the past centuries dial-up, instead of the normal speeds that has been available for the last decade.

The thousand words in this picture shows a corner that could be taken slow, but you might choose to accelerate and have some fun when you are confident and driving a Porscha. You go slow because you want to go slow, that is your life, your choice. That is not a valid reason to hold everybody else back.
~~~
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Thanks; good info -nt, posted on August 10, 2012 at 05:25:01
Feanor
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 nt

I love the music of ... ? ... Franz Joseph Haydn

 

that's a completely ignorant and stupid "choice" ..., posted on August 10, 2012 at 12:15:40
TBone
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 >>The thousand words in this picture shows a corner that could be taken slow, but you might choose to accelerate and have some fun when you are confident and driving a Porscha. You go slow because you want to go slow, that is your life, your choice. That is not a valid reason to hold everybody else back.<<

Actually, going DEAD SLOW around such dangerous corners is a required safety issue for both you, oncoming traffic, or kids, pedestrians and/or animals that cannot be seen otherwise.

Your example of "fun" in this particular case could kill someone.

tb1

 

nah ..., posted on August 10, 2012 at 12:33:03
TBone
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 >>It's not the high frequencies that matter it's the midrange, Midrange, Midrange!<<

the only way for me to have a pseudo realistic image of an audio live event within the confines of any living space via any "stereo" is totally equal to how the system reproduces the frequency extremes, not simply how it reproduces the midrange. The fact is, systems that do not properly reproduce the extremes, won't reproduce the midrange properly either.

>>That is where vacuum tube circuits sound more real and life-like, especially with vocal material, than solid state circuits ever seem able to pull off.<<

Just another myth easily proven wrong by reality!

tb1

 

RE: that's a completely ignorant and stupid "choice" ..., posted on August 14, 2012 at 15:10:09
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 10552
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since: February 24, 2009
 I used to enjoy driving fast. (Won't say how fast...) After living in Vermont for almost 20 years I've seen two fatal accidents caused by cars hitting moose and had a few close calls myself. One of the fatal accidents on an Interstate highway involved a car in front of me that hit a moose. The driver was going slowly and I was a few seconds from making the decision to pass her when the accident occurred and I ended up driving through the debris field. Just last week I would have hit a small doe and tiny faun if I had been speeding down a steep hill, but fortunately I was going the 40 MPH limit.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: nah ..., posted on August 14, 2012 at 15:12:57
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 10552
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since: February 24, 2009
 This confirms my experience. When I applied corrective room EQ DSP in my computer playback I expected the bass to be smoother as I cancelled three room modes that had 6 - 10 dB peaks. What I didn't realize was how the sound stage improved, even when listening to portions of an orchestral performance that hadn't been obviously exercising the room modes.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Been looking for a very good tube Dac, posted on August 14, 2012 at 16:16:14
Dynobot
Audiophile

Posts: 2703
Location: USA
Joined: December 8, 2011
 Decided to add the AudioNote tube Dac to my stable of Dacs.


Fun build and great reviews combined with excellent AN reputation.


Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

a midrange myth ..., posted on August 18, 2012 at 18:10:52
TBone
Audiophile

Posts: 3810
Joined: April 5, 2000
 >>What I didn't realize was how the sound stage improved,<<

I've heard far too many systems that supposedly had a "great" midrange ... but to my ears, couldn't throw out a proper 3 dimensional soundstage because the extreme frequencies were either absent and/or phasey.

Although an entire system is responsible, far too many source components fail to deliver the freq. extremes in proper fashion. It took several decades for CD players to reproduce the highs properly, and most analog units still produce phase issues with the highs.

The bottom line with audio reproduction, you simply can't have a "great" midrange without proper freq. extremes, despite what some tube fanatics claim.

tb1

 

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