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Need advice

75.85.92.125
Posted on June 25, 2012 at 19:45:41
cshartsis
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Joined: June 25, 2012
 I have what I am sure would be considered by most people here a low-end system. My knowledge of things audio is also rather limited. I am reasonably satisfied with the quality of sound the system delivers when playing vinyl. It could certainly use quite a bit of improvement, but that's a discussion for another time. I am bothered by the poor audio quality I am hearing when playing CDs. When playing a CD, it sounds like someone stuffed cotton in the speakers. The sound is much flatter than when the same system plays vinyl. I'm not talking about subtle differences between vinyl and digital, but a large difference that smacks you in the face as soon as you hear it. I guess that the only logical explanation is that my CD player is not up to snuff. It's a Sony SCD-CE775 5 disc SACD player that I bought about ten years ago. Because of the sound quality problem I have not used it much. Since I have quite a few CDs I would like to be able to listen to them without gnashing my teeth each time I do. I guess the first thing I would like is confirmation that the CD player is the problem. It seems that it would have to be since I'm talking about playing CDs and vinyl on the same system. If there is agreement that I should dump the current CD player, then please make recommendations on a not-too-expensive CD player replacement (it does not have to be an SACD player, I have no SACDs anyway). I guess I could consider up to $300 (please don't laugh) if you think it would really solve my CD listening problem.

This is probably not relevant, but just in case it is, here are my system's components (again please don't laugh):

Thorens TD 160 Super turntable
Harmon Kardon 3490 Receiver
Sony SCD-CE775 SACD player
pair AR5 speakers

 

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Your Sony has both coaxial and optical digital outputs -- so..., posted on June 25, 2012 at 20:16:10
willkayakforfood
Audiophile

Posts: 801
Joined: November 30, 2010
Contributor
  Since: December 24, 2011
 ...if the transport mechanism is good, I wonder if you'd consider something like a Schiit Bifrost DAC? ($350 - so just a bit over your stated budget - but may still be a worthwhile option for you?).

I don't know anything about that Sony player, so if the transport is bad, or if it somehow messes up the outgoing digital signal, perhaps this isn't such a great idea. On the other hand, as long as transport and digital output are fine, it may be a brilliant idea! :)

 

RE: Need advice, posted on June 25, 2012 at 23:10:12
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Is the cdp on when you listen to vinyl or is it always off?

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: Need advice, posted on June 26, 2012 at 00:48:15
Sumflow
Audiophile

Posts: 382
Location: On the road
Joined: June 7, 2012
Contributor
  Since: July 6, 2012
 Can you borrow a CD player and try it on your system maybe you can isolate the problem.
~~~
Hide it ~ nothing looks better..

 

Tone controls?, posted on June 26, 2012 at 08:59:11
sbrians
Audiophile

Posts: 958
Joined: March 4, 2002
 Is is possible that your cartridge is aligned wrong so that vinyl has a lot of highs compared to lows and you have compensated that with tone controls so that CDs sound muffled?

 

Try a NAD 515BEE, posted on June 26, 2012 at 09:45:18
dvb
Audiophile

Posts: 2310
Location: Vancouver
Joined: August 18, 2000
 Sounds to me like you are due for a new CD player. Personally, I've never been a fan of multi-disc players - I think it compromises the transport quality, especially in a less expensive player. So, I don't think you have a transport worth building on.

With a budget of less than $300.00, I also think you are wise to forego the SACD capability.

The NAD C515BEE CD player sells for slightly less than $300.00, and has had some excellent reviews, which you can check out through Google.

 

RE: Your Sony has both coaxial and optical digital outputs -- so..., posted on June 26, 2012 at 14:45:15
cshartsis
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Joined: June 25, 2012
 Thanks for the suggestion, however, I don't know of any way to determine if the problem is with only the transport or the DAC. Buying a DAC sounds sounds like an expensive gamble. I think it would be safer to replace the whole unit.

 

RE: Need advice, posted on June 26, 2012 at 14:46:19
cshartsis
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Joined: June 25, 2012
 The CD player is only on when playing CDs.

 

RE: Need advice, posted on June 26, 2012 at 14:50:20
cshartsis
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Joined: June 25, 2012
 Thanks, I thought of this too and it's probably the best thing to do before shelling out more moola. I'm a little uncomfortable with asking a friend to lend me a CD player. I think they would probably look upon this as an annoyance.

 

RE: Tone controls?, posted on June 26, 2012 at 15:03:20
cshartsis
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Joined: June 25, 2012
 I never twiddled with controls to improve vinyl sound. The only controls I can mess with are the receiver's treble and bass which I just leave in the middle.

 

RE: Try a NAD 515BEE, posted on June 26, 2012 at 15:07:04
cshartsis
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Joined: June 25, 2012
 Thanks for the suggestion. I will definitely look into reviews and prices for the NAD C515BEE. If I buy one of these, I'll let you know how it sounds relative to the current Sony player.

 

iCloud, posted on June 26, 2012 at 15:13:57
Sumflow
Audiophile

Posts: 382
Location: On the road
Joined: June 7, 2012
Contributor
  Since: July 6, 2012

Maybe someone else can chime in here. I gave up CD a long time ago to keeping my material on computer and to some extent now in the cloud. If you ask, some stranger will probably give you one just to be rid of such antiquated technology. Find one on Craigslist, don't pay more than ten dollars, or bring one home from Wal-mart. You can trouble shoot your system and take it back. CDs give great sound, with super great limitations. I can random play almost 22,000 songs, not yet CD quality in the cloud but soon 24-bit. CDs should just let us drag the files off without the hassle of ripping them. Never for one day did I like those cheesee cracked plastic disk boxes.
~~~
Hide it ~ nothing looks better..

 

RE: iCloud, posted on June 26, 2012 at 15:35:39
cshartsis
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Joined: June 25, 2012
 I suppose I could buy a player from Wal-Mart or Fry's or Best Buy and return it afterwards.

 

RE: Need advice, posted on June 26, 2012 at 15:49:21
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 For a test try turning it on while playing vinyl. Just have it powered up and see if it does anything to the vinyl playback. Try it with the disk spinning too.

Let me know if you can hear any difference.

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: Need advice, posted on June 26, 2012 at 16:18:46
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey C,

Also how do you have the cdp connected? Is it digital (single cable) or analog (red and white cable).

Have you tried both connections? If not you might try the other connection. Preferably coaxial if you havent tried a digital connection.

Either your receiver or the cdp is going to have a better dac, so it is beneficial to try connecting them both ways to see.

Just in case the HK has a built in dac and so does the Sony. If you are hooking up with the red/white wires you are using the dac in the Sony. If you are connecting digitally you are using the dac in the HK.

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: Need advice, posted on June 26, 2012 at 17:06:53
cshartsis
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Joined: June 25, 2012
 I played vinyl with cd player 1) off, 2) on, and 3) on with disc spinning. No difference. The cd player is connected to the receiver using analog cables.

I originally had the cd player connected to the receiver via digital optical. Eventually I needed the optical connection for my flat screen TV so, for the last year, the cd player has been connected via analog component. The receiver has only one digital optical input and the Sony player has one digital optical output and NO digital coax. I have never been able to hear any difference in sound quality when using either digital or analog. Seems to suggest the whole player should be replaced. No?

 

RE: Need advice, posted on June 27, 2012 at 09:59:35
knewton
Audiophile

Posts: 231
Location: Mid-Atlantic/Northeast
Joined: May 18, 2010
 It sounds to me as though you are suffering from a case of what is known as, Digititus. Digititus can be loosely defines as listening fatigue and/or musical boredom brought on by the sound of CD audio. This is an old phenomena, which has been observed by audiophile since CD was introduced. It is, perhaps, most readily experienced when listening to music prominantly featuring massed brass, or strings, or cymballs and bells.

While there may still be something amiss with your CD player, I suspect there probably is not. Can a more expensive player produce better sound? Well, yes, of course. Will it fully cure your Digititus? That may not be so easily accomplished. I would not simply purchase another CD player. I suggest that you consider acquiring a non-oversampled (digital filter-less) DAC.

Not eveyone seems to hear or appreciate the musical benefits of non-oversampling. I have noticed that those who find CD annoying tend to really like the sound of non-oversampled DACs. There are a number of such DAC s availble, from diy, to kit, to finished product. While I won't recommend any particular unit, I am have noted that the Metrum Octave (around $850) has much positive audiophile buzz surrounding it. http://www.nosminidac.nl/Octave_English.html

For an oversampled alternative, the Simaudio Moon 100, ($600) as been very highly reviewed.
_
Ken Newton

 

Thanks to all, posted on June 27, 2012 at 20:30:18
cshartsis
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Joined: June 25, 2012
 Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. You've given me some things to think about. As a first step, I will probably get a hold of another cd player temporarily and see how it compares to my Sony.

 

RE: Computer Audio as an alternative?, posted on July 2, 2012 at 11:47:51
mr.bear
Audiophile

Posts: 3240
Joined: November 13, 2001
 The day of the end of the physical CD is near, if the Hollywood wiseguys are to be believed. 3 years ago I ripped my entire CD library to lossless digital files on a big external HDD (backed up 100%, mind you, on a second drive I keep locked in my waterproof safe!) and haven't looked back, well ...only occasionally. "All" you have to do is rip a zillion CDs into digital files. (Please, in the name of everything good a decent, use a lossless compression scheme or better still .WAV files and back them up. Do I repeat myself? Good!)

I get pretty superb CD performance from my 'new' vintage DVD player - see link - but I listen to 9,900 of my 10,000 songs from CDs via my PC and there is a very, very small quality difference between that and my Pioneer Elite. I hear the difference but can't say which is more "right" since I feel the limitations are inherent in the RBCD medium, but that's for another soapbox. It sure is convenient and actually fun, compared to CDs!

Your old Sony might be nice to have around for occasional physical CD's and SACDs that float by in the future. Check out computer audio at computeraudiophile.com and especially thewelltemperedcomputer.com for good basic, balanced consumer information.

If you have a laptop, you just need a nice new big HDD and decent USB DAC to output quality analog to your H-K receiver. You can find a very decent DAC for $400. Read this review of a $30 'giant-killer' DAC that would give you a taste of it http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/behringer-uca202-review.html You could be in business for <$200 (plus the zillion hours to rip your CDs). Well worth it in retrospect.

 

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