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CD players going the way of the 8 track

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Posted on June 18, 2012 at 16:47:08
jaydacus
Audiophile

Posts: 412
Joined: October 15, 2009
 I know that many people on these boards think that CD players will be at least a nitch market even 50 years from now, but looking around, CD players seem to be dying out very quickly. I briefly decided to try and delve back into the world of physical media and this is what I found:

-There are virtually no new CD players still for sale at local electronic stores.

-Common brand CD players(Kenwood, Sony, Pioneer, etc.) are being offered on Craigslist at $20-$40 regardless of the model or disc capacity. Even at those prices, no one seems to be buying. I see the same ones up for weeks and weeks.

-People are still trying to get a decent price for their high endish CD players(Onkyo, Nakamichi, Rotel) and having a very hard time. There is an Onkyo C-7030 in Ebay that has been up with a buy it now of $199+$25 shipping for months. I offered the guy $125 shipped and he said that he would be taking too much of a loss. Similar situations with a Nakamichi and Rotel locally. It's like the bubble burst more quickly than they expected.

-Virtually any $500 or above DAC will beat out virtually any $500 or below CD player. At this point, people that don't have large amounts of coin(more then $500) to dump of this dying technology are better off with a DAC. I have a $150 DAC that sounds better than most CD players under $500. Have hundreds or even thousands of albums on my PC ready to listen to without having to load, touch, or worry about something skipping is something that I cannot put a price on.


 

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To skip over vinyl you must really hate them., posted on June 18, 2012 at 20:08:26
soulfood
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Posts: 3310
Joined: August 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: July 18, 2011
 "I know that many people on these boards think that CD players will be at least a nitch market even 50 years from now, but looking around, CD players seem to be dying out very quickly."

Just for grins, place a timetable on "dying out very quickly".

"Have hundreds or even thousands of albums on my PC ready to listen to without having to load, touch, or worry about something skipping is something that I cannot put a price on."

I guess millions would not be believable. Worrying about little things is unhealthy.

 

bad checksum..., posted on June 18, 2012 at 20:09:36
JoeKool
Audiophile

Posts: 769
Location: NYC
Joined: May 9, 2003
 Current "local electronic stores", no longer cater to a dedicated stereo market. A simple cd player is now classified a dedicated component, the mass market has clumped cd, dvd, bluRay playback into one 'universal' component.
You are shopping in the wrong marketplace, its mostly online now...AA, or high end dealers.

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 18, 2012 at 20:25:54
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 1604
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 They don't sell turntables either. Is vinyl dead?

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 18, 2012 at 20:26:52
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 I agree, and have been saying that for years.

Disks are dying more and more by the days. Dacs now all have usb.

The proof for me comes from Audio Note. Here is a blurb from an exchange I had with Peter about computer audio:

I have people here trying to convince me that a computer server as a musical source is the way to go, so far I have to say that I am left deeply unimpressed by what I hear, so I think it will be a very long wait for anyone wishing to see Audio Note release a server, the word "eternity" springs to mind.

Unlike most of our "rivals" as you call them, we do not yield to commercial pressure, just like we do not follow technological fashion or make products just because they are guaranteed to sell, my business plan is somewhat less commercial and more focused on the long term of what I see as serving music reproduction.

So unless there is a quantum leap in the quality of what I have heard from a computer so far, it just is not happening.


Pretty strong views I think against computer audio. Funny thing is that if you go to Audio Note's site, what do you see. Yep USB input on at least one of their dacs. Even Audio Note knows that people are using computers more and more over cds.

It has reached critical mass IMHO and cds will continue to be passe. Sure there will be some dinosaurs that swear by them but no way the audio industry is going to reach young consumers by discs....

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: bad checksum..., posted on June 18, 2012 at 22:35:44
jaydacus
Audiophile

Posts: 412
Joined: October 15, 2009
 Actually they do carry turntables. My local electronics store has 3 turntables to choose from, but only 1 CD player. A month ago they had 2 CD players.

Most people that think CD's will just hang around like LPs did are missing a critical point. Nothing can or will ever replace LPs. It doesn't even matter how you feel about vinyl. Love it, hate it, don't care, it doesn't matter. Nothing can replace it. CDs are different. They are being replaced. The first blow was the 128kb/s MP3. Think recording your records to 8 track tape. Then higher bit rates became more common. Think cassettes. Better, but still not a suitable replacement. Then came lossless files formats(.wav, flac, etc.) and better ripping techniques like using Exact Audio Copy and more accurate drives. Now we are talking 2 track tapes or even transfer to high resolution digital staying with the vinyl replacement analogy. In the case of vinyl, this would still not be good enough. Tapes add hiss and some of the vinyl magic gets lost in the transfer to digital. If you want the vinyl sound, you still need vinyl to get it.

CDs are different though. With lossless files created on good drives using good software and or files that were created from studio masters with no CD even in the chain, we are getting really close. Now for the final nail in the coffin of physical media. DACs that sound as good as or better than similarly price useless plastic spinners. Why inert insert a shiny piece of plastic into your source when you can get the same or better sound without it? CDs won't stick around like vinyl did because they can and are being replaced.








 

yes, on the CD Zero model, posted on June 19, 2012 at 00:10:42
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 13073
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 I'm not sure why he made the concession, except to attract potential buyers of his high end equipment.

USB technology focuses on jitter reduction. The Audio Note philosophy is a) you can't hear low level jitter and b) the cure is worse than the disease, if there is one.

I have an entry-level USB Dac that sounds very good with my headphone amp, but does not mate at all well with my Audio Note equipment, and does not come close to matching the sound produced by my AN digital front end. A recent review in Stereophile shows that my AN CD4.1x measures very poorly, by the way, compared to my USB Dac, both reviewed by Art Dudley.



Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.

 

I see plenty of Colby CD players - $19.00 each, posted on June 19, 2012 at 00:14:05
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 9937
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 You were just shopping in the wrong aisle. You should have been looking in the disposable shopping section!

I like the focus of one disc, one album: I must be getting old and senile though ;-)

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 04:26:02
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 3310
Joined: August 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: July 18, 2011
 The OP says, "dying out very quickly" now you say, "It has reached critical mass"-sensational nonsense. A prerequisite for your agendas.

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 04:55:44
tmsorosk
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Location: Sprucegrove Ab.
Joined: October 31, 2010
 I recently saw some numbers of how many CDs were still being sold, I don't want to try and quote a number, but it was a ton. Vinyl was completely in the toilet for years before it made a come back. Who here can predict the future of audio?

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 05:30:39
bacobits
Audiophile

Posts: 897
Joined: September 29, 1999
 Yea, too bad, just listen to the absolute crap out there for "young people". It has no redeeming musical or entertainment value. Most of it is trash. IMHO.
I'm one to refuse going the computer DAC route. I'm also not going to try and transfer over 1k
CD's.

I'm old!

OP mentions Nakamichi, they have been out of business for years, Kenwood is car crap now.
Hey, maybe the $5k machines will be selling for $500, time to clean up. I'll be there!

 

Good point! (nt), posted on June 19, 2012 at 06:56:36
1973shovel
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Posts: 4677
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2009

 

Good Points But, posted on June 19, 2012 at 08:01:18
Dynobot
Audiophile

Posts: 2700
Location: USA
Joined: December 8, 2011
 The only thing that will determine IF CD players actualy die out is:

A new universal method that allows manufacturers/retailers to profit from selling music content in hardware form. This method must also gain wide acceptance from consumers as to show substantial profits ie. > CD player sales and hardcopy CD's. So far online sales has not been able to accomplish this alone.

Profits from CD players decrease enough to make the manufacture and sales not support a business case. Hardware components are still cheap enough to allow manufacturers/retailers to turn a profit. Unprofitable Quarter-Quarter sales will drive manufacturers to discontinue products.

For large scale manufacturers like Pioneer et.al volume is key. If volume sales are not substantial year-over-year budgets will not allow the re-purchase of components to make CD players. Profits for large scale corportations are small but are made up with volume. For the smaller firms substantial profits can still be made in niche markets with low volume/high profit [high retail cost] products. Since the technology is old parts are cheap enough to justify production on small scales.

Therefore as long as consumers have content to play on CD players and existing CD players continue to break down [eventually] there will be a need for CD players. Even IF record producers stop making CD's, the market is saturated enough with legacy copies to keep the market alive for a very long time.


Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

RE: yes, on the CD Zero model, posted on June 19, 2012 at 08:13:22
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hi Fri,

At one point on their site they mentioned that the usb was a "a highly requested option". I couldnt find it there now but it has to be the case. AFAIK Audio Note does listen to its customer base.

Much like the rest of audio it often takes an investment to get results. Computer audio is no different IME and it takes an investment to get better results than a good cdp but it can be done.

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 08:23:34
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hi Soul,

I think by "it" I meant the adoption of computer audio. Nowadays it seems like every new dac has to have usb. Please show one that came out in the last few months that doesnt have a usb input? Last 6 months? Last year?

Given how it used to be in computer audio just a few years ago the amount of options one has and the amount of people taking the plunge is at critical mass IMHO.

As to agenda sure I have one. Its simple really. With some effort one can get better sound and listen to more music with a computer based system than a good cdp.

Getting better sound and listening to more music (because it is easier) is a noble aim for an audiophile IMHO. YMMV

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 08:34:25
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Baco,

Yea, too bad, just listen to the absolute crap out there for "young people". It has no redeeming musical or entertainment value. Most of it is trash. IMHO.

Not sure what you are talking about here. I certainly agree that most music made now is crap. They find a way to compress even the good stuff with dynamic range compression. But if you are talking about downloads, there are some good places. Linn audio has some great music available for download and many hi-res titles. Cd is limited to 44.1 AFAIK. Computer audio isnt.

I'm one to refuse going the computer DAC route. I'm also not going to try and transfer over 1k CD's.

No sympathy from me. At this point I have done about 3,000 discs. It can be a pain but it isnt hard. Hell I can do it. Best to do 4-5 in the morning and 4-5 at night. Once you get the favorites done and see how convenient it can be you will WANT to get the rest done.

I'm old!

Great. Then you hopefully have the money to pay some youngster to do the work. In fact there are many companies who will rip the discs for you at affordable rates.

Anyhow it is just a matter of time. The cd drives themselves are being produced at a lower and lower rate. When the dvd dies and it will cdp owners will be sorely pressed to replace their transport.

So when you are cleaning up get a brand that has a history of buying extra replacement parts.....

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

So what does that have to do with us?, posted on June 19, 2012 at 08:37:13
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 11245
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 More of "our" CD players are being built than ever before, and are still pervasive.

You don't have any experience in area where you are posting, or with the equipment that is relevant.


PLUS, new transport technology has been advanced, and is still being advanced, - especially within the last 6 years...



"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

"High-endish"? Everything mentioned in the post is low-end garbage., posted on June 19, 2012 at 08:48:02
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 5428
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 Who cares whether they are dying or not?

What relation does local electronics store have to audiophiles on this forum?

 

What relation does local electronics store have to audiophiles on this forum?, posted on June 19, 2012 at 08:52:37
Dynobot
Audiophile

Posts: 2700
Location: USA
Joined: December 8, 2011
 None!



Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 09:01:57
bacobits
Audiophile

Posts: 897
Joined: September 29, 1999
 As I said I'm old.

CD Drives, I understand the shortages causing players to be obsolete, that have been going on now for 10 years. Phillips being the largest offender. I'll do something about it when the time comes. Playing a lot of vinyl the last year.

Groups and Music? The newer ones showing up on Leno and the MTV Music Awards etc..Don't even know the names. Absolute trash. Just my opinion. I don't do portable music although my wife does.

 

are you sure that you want to say the above? Really? -t, posted on June 19, 2012 at 10:00:48
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 11245
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 .

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Downloads are "better, faster, cheaper"., posted on June 19, 2012 at 10:07:43
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 10393
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since: February 24, 2009
 "A new universal method that allows manufacturers/retailers to profit from selling music content in hardware form. This method must also gain wide acceptance from consumers as to show substantial profits ie. > CD player sales and hardcopy CD's."


I don't believe this can happen. The economies don't permit it. Physical goods need a meat space supply chain and distribution network. The distribution network is likely to be hierarchical, with multiple levels of markup required to support inventory, which is a significant cost for commodities such as CDs where there are millions of separate titles. In addition there are production and shipping cost which are paid by some combination of the record label, the supply chain and the consumer.

Now contrast this with the situation with file transfer across the Internet. There are no inventory costs, other than the cost of storage space on the server for one copy of an album. (About 4 cents at the present Amazon cloud storage pricing.) The "production cost" is the CPU time required to drive the bandwidth. Typically with a hosting provider this is bundled in with "transport cost" which is the charge the hosting provider pays for Internet backbone service. The combined production and shipping costs are also around 4 cents for a 44/16 album download. (Again figuring this at the Amazon cloud storage pricing.) The customers get their product sooner and at lower cost. They don't have to take a trip to their mailbox or post office. They don't have to wait for days for mail to arrive. They don't have to drive or walk to a record store that happens to order the titles that interest them. They don't have to struggle with shrink wrap, rip the CD and scan the art work.
All they have to do is make a few mouse clicks for the purchase, and a few more to enter the resulting files into their music library. In addition, they can play long works or concerts non-stop, without being subject to an arbitrary time limit around 75 - 80 minutes. Hi-res albums are typically 3 to 6 times larger than 44/16, depending on download format. This translates into inventory and production/shipping costs of $0.12 to $0.24.

There are old farts who get a feeling of security holding a physical CD. (Obviously they haven't had many CD-Rs or pressed CDs go bad on them.) These people will die off.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 10:20:52
soulfood
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Posts: 3310
Joined: August 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: July 18, 2011
 I think by "it" ["It has reached critical mass"] I meant the adoption of computer audio.

You're the one reaching with this critical mass nonsense.

"Getting better sound and listening to more music (because it is easier) is a noble aim for an audiophile IMHO."

Better sound as a result of convenience is a neminesis to the hobby and a hard sell to audiophiles.

 

RE: Not really, posted on June 19, 2012 at 10:32:40
Land Shark
Audiophile

Posts: 361
Location: South Florida
Joined: April 26, 2000
 CD players may be dying in the low end, but there's still a market for high end players.

The CD is more likely to go they way of vinyl and become a niche market. The CD has an advantage no other previous format has ever had, CDs can be played on any type of digital disc drive (Blue ray, DVD, CD-rom) so devices that can play them should be available for a long time.

Your 8-track analogy doesn't hold water given how quickly both tapes and players disappeared from the market. The 8-track went away because it was so inferior sonically and reliability-wise, it was not replaced by a more convenient format. I know, I used to own 8-tracks back in the 70s.

>>Have hundreds or even thousands of albums on my PC ready to listen to without having to load, touch, or worry about something skipping is something that I cannot put a price on.<<

I find having a CD/LP as back up to be something I can't put a price on. PCs and back up drives can fail you know. Besides, I don't find the convenience advantage of computer based systems over CDs to be so significant. My CDs are alphabetized and I can find what I'm looking for pretty quick, not as quickly as with an computer/server/I-Pod, but close enough. And if I can't decide what to listen to, no computer will speed that process up. And I treat my CDs well so skipping isn't an issue.
Best regards, Ralph

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 10:47:44
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Soul,

You're the one reaching with this critical mass nonsense.

I noticed you didnt name one dac without a usb connection. In that regard, being able to buy a dac to connect to any computer it is a critical mass. USB is now a checklist item for any audio company. RELATIVE to just a few years ago this is critical mass, and it is only building. Not to mention network players.

Better sound as a result of convenience is a neminesis to the hobby and a hard sell to audiophiles.

This makes no sense. How do you get better sound because of convenience? I am not espousing computer audio because of convenience though some end up there because of it, and it is a nice plus. Heck I play "albums" myself and dont do playlists but some love that.

I am espousing computer audio because it can sound better. Sure there are alot of options one can do that might not sound better, but in terms of sq computers are the present and future.

Better sound is a "hard sell to audiophiles"???? I thought I was the one reaching??




Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: Downloads are "better, faster, cheaper"., posted on June 19, 2012 at 10:51:13
Dynobot
Audiophile

Posts: 2700
Location: USA
Joined: December 8, 2011
 I understand what you are saying Tony.

This is the reason 'in a nutshell' why industrial lossless music downloads [ie Sony Records, BMG et.al.] are not common place...note this is 5+ years old. My business instructor explained, as with all things time=money. Servers on the industrial scale needs to be able to make X-amount of profit/time period. Downloading lossless music has not yet been able to prove itself profitable enough to replace the hardcopy CD in terms of profit/time and demand for product. For small companies who servers do not download 24/7/365 individual sales of lossless data can tern enough profit to justify sales.

Still, imo CD'players aren't going anywhere soon. There is just too much legacy product around.


Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 11:00:20
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Baco,

Nothing wrong with being old. I get that. I bought my dad a fathers day card that showed a spiffy young guy and a caption that read "Before Kids". Then a picture of an old bald guy who looked tired and like life has sucked him dry. The caption read "After kids". My wife commented that I looked like that even without the kids.

Groups and Music? The newer ones showing up on Leno and the MTV Music Awards etc..Don't even know the names. Absolute trash. Just my opinion. I don't do portable music although my wife does.

Its an opinion I agree with. No portable music here, not even my wife.

You might want to see the music on these sites. They might have something more your speed:

http://www.linnrecords.com/catalogue.aspx?format=studio
https://www.hdtracks.com/


Oh and if you check out Linn's site, do note what they no longer make...thats right CDPs. They only make network players for digital files. I wonder why that is :)



Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: Downloads are "better, faster, cheaper"., posted on June 19, 2012 at 11:11:08
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 10393
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since: February 24, 2009
 In my cost comparisons, I deliberately chose the Amazon cloud service model, with their lowest usage tier. They provide the industrial size replication and engineer their servers accordingly. If one is running a high volume operation, it is possible to do much better, cost wise.

I run a low volume download service. We pay a fixed monthly rate for our hosting, so far we haven't raised any red flags with the hosting provider. The costs of providing the downloads are effectively free, as far as bandwidth is concerned, but I did want to understand what the options would be, hence my investigation of Amazon cloud services. Our biggest costs are royalties to the copyright holders, credit card processing, and support costs, especially hand-holding new download customers, some of whom are a help-desk nightmare. But these costs are the same regardless of format.

I also pay a fixed monthly fee for the free recordings that are on one of my personal websites. No billing costs, no support costs (so far) and, obviously no revenues.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 11:56:40
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 1738
Location: SF Bay area
Joined: February 6, 2005
 Good post. You made your point quite well.

Hearing from a dinosaur brought some balance to the thread. However, even dinosaurs want to survive and their actions speak too.

Bill

my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/

 

RE: Downloads are "better, faster, cheaper"., posted on June 19, 2012 at 12:03:50
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 1738
Location: SF Bay area
Joined: February 6, 2005
 Good post with lots of detail.

---
I think that independent labels may be more receptive to lossless downloads and high res. downloads as a business than the major labels.

The major labels' golden goose may not be laying as many eggs as before but the labels are still conservative about protecting the stream of eggs from the old distribution model. The old model didn't work nearly as well for small labels so they have less to lose and more to gain.

Bill

my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 13:04:56
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 3310
Joined: August 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: July 18, 2011
 When I said, "Better sound as a result of convenience is a neminesis to the hobby and a hard sell to audiophiles.", it was a reply to your,
"Getting better sound and listening to more music (because it is easier) is a noble aim for an audiophile IMHO."

I was simply disagreeing with your 'noble aim' position.

"Better sound is a "hard sell to audiophiles"???? I thought I was the one reaching??"

Clearly, you're spinning and reaching.

Do you stand by what you said, above? Your answer could put the spinning part to rest.

 

That's an old news. New CD players are still coming out..., posted on June 19, 2012 at 13:05:17
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 7017
Joined: July 8, 2001
 at an ultra high end level. ( over 20KUSD) I was surprised to see TAD introduced a new CD/SACD player last year even.

I don't think they are going to have a lasting or revival power of a turntable because the laser has a finite life span. Once it's gone, you are left with a boat anchor.

I still enjoy my CD players (including my 14 year old Krell kps25s ) because there are a ton of new classical music CD releases which are not available as a download just yet.

I am not sure if a 500$ DAC will beat yet another 500$ CD player. ( My guess is that neither sound all that good. But maybe I did not try the *right* 500$ DAC and a CD player )

From my experience, a good digital in any form, hasn't been cheap.

Speaking of a dying format, I still use a minidisc for travel but my Marantz recorder finally died and can't replace it now. :(

 

RE: bad checksum..., posted on June 19, 2012 at 14:37:32
JoeKool
Audiophile

Posts: 769
Location: NYC
Joined: May 9, 2003
 My point was...you can/will still get a mass market component that plays cds, its the dvd/bluray, which plays all the current optical software.

Sure hi-rez d/l might be the future, but that would hardly be mass market anytime soon.
In the distant future everything would be biologically embedded, we will be like cyborgs, directly linked to Mother.

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 14:48:49
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
The "listening to more music" part is because it is easier, not the audio quality. I am not saying you get better audio quality because things are more convenient. Certainly no one thinks THAT.

You listen to more music because things are easier.

Look at the sentence there was a big AND there, and the parenthesis apply to the 2nd part not the first.

Maybe I should simplify it:

Getting better sound is a noble aim for an audiophile.
Listening to more music because it is easier is a noble aim for an audiophile.


I stand by that!

Its not just me saying it either. Those who have made the switch know this:

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 14:57:29
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Thanks Bill.

I think Peter's views were more valid years ago when he posted that. Clearly some are stuck with their disk mentality.

Sadly the cd is a problem you never know you have until you get rid of them with a computer based system.

If I could snap my fingers and show up in all these naysayers homes with a system that had their music on it and sounded as good or better than their cdp they would understand.

Of course there are attempts at computer audio that dont sound that good, but more and more it is getting easier to beat a cdp. I saw a post here recently that had a computer system outclassing a 16k spectral cdp.

If you can have all the convenience and the sq why the hell not??

You give me hope because you are old (so your moniker says) and you get it! Old is just a word by the way...

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 15:16:51
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 3310
Joined: August 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: July 18, 2011
 "Look at the sentence there was a big AND there, and the parenthesis apply to the 2nd part not the first."

This is the point of contention. It's understood that everyone is interested in obtaining better sound. It was misplaced in your sentence. If intentional, it might be considered as a filler for strengthening your point.

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 15:31:50
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Soul you give me too much credit.

I miscommunicate with out it being intentional all the time :)

Honestly I think my point is pretty strong on its own. YMMV

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 18:21:06
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 2717
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I hope that value ends up being part of this thread.

I hope most would agree that 'value' keeps being pushed to lower and lower actual cost. A mid-priced CD player would.....or should......'beat' a player of a decade ago...at nearly any cost. Problem is, the transport has a limited lifespan. The lowspeed bearings of a TT should when properly lubed, last for decades...plus. My CA840c used the SAME transport as the rest of the CA player line. A Sanyo SF101n, if I remember right. Same as the 300$ 300 series.
My perfectly serviceable Magnevox FD1000 14 bit top loader....not only a 1st gen player...but maybe the 1st player in the US...period...failed because of an unavailable laser. The TT guys will never have that problem.
As for CD vs DAC.....I'll go with the DAC. Even the 500$ DAC is better than even the last generation of DAC at the same price, not to mention from 5 years ago and longer. I'm not certain the limit of a 16 / 44.1 system has yet been reached.

Nope, I see the OPs point and have already acted on it. I'll use a commodity DVD player or even my PS3 as blueray, while relying on my computer for all my music. My DAC should last well with no moving parts. I hope they don't 'obsolete' me too soon.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 19, 2012 at 22:51:07
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 1738
Location: SF Bay area
Joined: February 6, 2005
 > You give me hope because you are old (so your moniker says)
> and you get it! Old is just a word by the way...

I doubt that I'm proof.

I took the screen name "Old Listener" because "Listener" was taken on AA. I am getting senior discounts but not for that long.

I first worked on recording and playing back audio about 1980. I wrote Windows kernel level s/w (drivers and other stuff) for audio and video in the late 90s. I knew then that I was going to computer based audio when hard drive capacities got big enough and prices low enough. (I had decided on using lossless formats rather than lossy formats. That delayed my start.)

I could transfer what I knew about user interfaces and relational databases to analyzing the functionality and operation that I wanted. By late 2005, hard drives were marginally adequate, I knew what I wanted from a system and I was ready to do my consumer research on available hardware and software and get started.

I don't think that my experience would be that typical of most "old" audiophiles coming to computer audio.

Bill






my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 20, 2012 at 04:35:00
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 3310
Joined: August 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: July 18, 2011
 The trek of CD players being analogous to the 8 track is nuts, right?

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 20, 2012 at 04:54:03
tmsorosk
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Location: Sprucegrove Ab.
Joined: October 31, 2010
 Right. By the amount of CD's and CD players still being sold and the amount of people still listening to them, one would have to suggest the'll be around for a very long time.
Anyone recall how long the 8 track lasted?

 

RE: Downloads are "better, faster, cheaper"., posted on June 20, 2012 at 08:25:42
steveassante@comcast.net
Audiophile

Posts: 134
Joined: March 27, 2011
 Speaking of downloads,is there a program (or utility) that will allow me to "prioritize" my downloads ? In other words, is there a way to prevent my OS from performing other non- downloading processing functions while a download is in progress ?

 

Young users, posted on June 20, 2012 at 09:22:52
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 11245
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 Is it possible that young users may experience different kinds of digital music files via quality headphones? In that pursuit, do you think that it is possible that they might be exposed to higher quality playback devices? And if so, is it possible that they might experience something akin to a "very good sounding," - (i know that that is a moving target), - loudspeaker/amplifier/desktop computer system?

What are young people in their twenties calling DJ electronica music now? "Electronics."

Are they discovering John Digweed, Stephane Pompougnac, Orbital, Future Sounds of London, the Prodigy, all over again, (as they procure "electronics)?" How would they go about this?

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Management of Downloading, posted on June 20, 2012 at 10:11:24
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 10393
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since: February 24, 2009
 Even with broadband, downloads are very slow compared to the speed of modern computers, so there is little effect of a download on other system activities (except possibly audiophile playback). So in general local activities and downloads don't interfere with each other.

It is a different situation with respect to network I/O, so if you are doing multiple network activities at the same time as a download there will be interference. The effect on the download is to slow it down temporarily, and this won't matter for sporadic networking activities such as sending and receiving emails and web surfing. However, if you are doing more extensive networking functions such as watching videos, voice telephony (e.g. Skype) they may be degraded, in which case it is best to avoid these until the download is over. (There may be interference even if separate computers are involved if they share a router.) Home routers are not designed to handle multiple networking streams at very heavy load. One can avoid these problems by purchasing an expensive enterprise grade router, I suppose. The best solution is to upgrade to a higher speed Internet service. I routinely listen to music, download new music, and upload and download gigabyte files without interference using a DSL service that has a download speed of 12 Mbps and a (pathetic) upload speed of 1 Mbps and the "free" router that came with the DSL service.

If you have a large number of downloads that need to run at the same time it may be useful to use a download manager. These programs will queue multiple downloads and do them sequentially (e.g. one or two at a time). They also allow you to limit the speed of any downloading so that it won't choke other network usage. If you have an unreliable Internet service these allow resuming a partially completed download as well as allowing you to suspend all downloading and resume at a later time. I have used a program called "Free Download Manger" but I generally don't use it. Some music download sites come with their own download manager program and these are convenient.



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

This reminds of the 1800's guy explaining why a Car cannot replace a Horse..........nt, posted on June 20, 2012 at 15:39:16
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 10213
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
 nt

Cut-Throat




 

Perhaps the "dedicated" CD player, but , posted on June 20, 2012 at 15:58:26
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 17673
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 unlike the oddball and unique moving head format of the 8 track tape with its many limitations, there are countless current design transports found in the audio, video and computer domain which continue to support the Redbook format.

Due to that wide support, I suspect there will be no shortage of CD playable transports for a very long time.



 

Why?, posted on June 20, 2012 at 18:05:56
Sumflow
Audiophile

Posts: 382
Location: On the road
Joined: June 7, 2012
Contributor
  Since: July 6, 2012

Jaydacus :>I know that many people on these boards think that CD players will be at least a nitch market even 50 years from now<

Nonsense and here is why.
J. Gordon Rankin, Wavelength Audio:> http://youtu.be/XpAekzBJ6jk?t=33m33s
~~~
Hide it ~ nothing looks better..

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 20, 2012 at 18:31:45
steveassante@comcast.net
Audiophile

Posts: 134
Joined: March 27, 2011
 No offense, but "Audiophiles" don't really consider Craigslist as a "Health Barometer" of the relevance of Audio Components. If you were to do a search on Audigon I don't believe you would encounter the same difficulty locating a digital player .

The thing you have to remember is the "Audiophile Market " has been generated by the wants of consumers who have , at least , a basic knowledge of the technology they want to buy.

On the other hand it is much easier to sell the general consumer "New" technology as technology of any sort scares the hell out of the general consumer. The truly puzzling thing is why the average consumer makes the assumption that "new" tech will work better with the requirement of less thought on their part.

Ultimately , we all have the ability to generate products that we want !

 

How so?, posted on June 21, 2012 at 05:43:55
Land Shark
Audiophile

Posts: 361
Location: South Florida
Joined: April 26, 2000
 There's no doubt computer audio is replacing the CD as the primary music source, but I'm sure it will survive in a niche like vinyl has. I'm eventually taking the computer audio plunge, I just don't need to do it now. But as more and more music is released in download only formats, I will have to make a move. Meanwhile I'll keep buying CDs cheap as more and more people dump their discs. Just like I did with vinyl back in the late 80s early 90s.
Best regards, Ralph

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 21, 2012 at 06:04:11
tmsorosk
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Location: Sprucegrove Ab.
Joined: October 31, 2010
 My last CD player and DAC purchase ( about a year and a half ago ) really brought the format into the future for me. As long as CD equipment keeps improving there will be a growing market. That market may be in the upper end, but it will be there.

 

Two Ways of Talking, posted on June 21, 2012 at 06:27:01
Bob Neill
Dealer

Posts: 2426
Location: New England
Joined: October 1, 1999
 You are talking about The Market, Peter is talking about the reproduction of music. When the Peters of the world begin to think and talk as you are talking, something important will be over.

 

I am espousing computer audio because it can sound better., posted on June 21, 2012 at 06:34:49
Bob Neill
Dealer

Posts: 2426
Location: New England
Joined: October 1, 1999
 Well that's the biggie, isn't it. Are we there yet? I'm not saying we won't get there but if that's the reason for espousal, it's the right one. But if it's really convenience that's leading the parade here, there's not a great history of that leading toward anything that's truly better at reproducing music.

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 21, 2012 at 06:44:01
Bob Neill


 
The "listening to more music" part is because it is easier, not the audio quality. I am not saying you get better audio quality because things are more convenient. Certainly no one thinks THAT.

PHEW, GLAD WE'VE GOT THAT ONE OFF THE TABLE, THOUGH THIS SEEMS LIKE A BIT OF
A RETRENCHMENT?

You listen to more music because things are easier.

WOW, THAT'S A DEPRESSING THING TO SAY OUT LOUD. IF THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH
HIGH END AUDIO, YOU WOULD APPEAR TO BE IT.


Getting better sound is a noble aim for an audiophile.

SO LONG AS YOU MEAN BETTER REPRODUCTION OF MUSIC, SURE.

Listening to more music because it is easier is a noble aim for an audiophile.

THIS IS STILL DEPRESSING TO ME. I AM OLD TOO. MEANING I AM STILL ONE OF
THOSE FOLKS WHO SIT DOWN TO LISTEN TO MUSIC AND PAY ATTENTION TO
IT. CONVENIENCE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. NOR WITH ANYTHING ELSE THAT
MATTERS PERHAPS?




I

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 21, 2012 at 06:49:37
Bromo33333
Audiophile

Posts: 1741
Location: Western NY
Joined: May 4, 2004
Contributor
  Since: January 9, 2012
 Yes, that's the way the wind is blowing. Mass market is almost entirely "Pandora" and similar services - and for portable/iPod use - MP3.



"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 21, 2012 at 06:55:57
Soundgarden
Audiophile

Posts: 150
Location: Northeast
Joined: March 24, 2004
 I reached a different conclusion than you did. After dabbling in computer audio for a couple of years now, I found the sound inferior to my CD playback system and always found myself wanting to slip a silver disc into the tray instead of playing it's counterpart file from my music library. I also believe downloads lose something by the time that music reaches my ears so I have stopped doing that. Because of this I am buying more CD's now than I ever did and don't plan on stopping anytime soon!

 

A bit of an effort to convey an obsure point. -nt, posted on June 21, 2012 at 07:19:32
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 3310
Joined: August 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: July 18, 2011
 nt

 

Vinyl is analog...it will stay......CDs are Digital, so are Hard Drives.....The CD is Dead!.......nt, posted on June 21, 2012 at 14:50:52
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 10213
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
 nt

Cut-Throat




 

RE: Vinyl is analog...it will stay......CDs are Digital, so are Hard Drives.....The CD is Dead!.......nt, posted on June 21, 2012 at 15:53:03
tmsorosk
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Location: Sprucegrove Ab.
Joined: October 31, 2010
 Very narrow minded view Cut Throat. But if you polled a hundred people and asked them what format they listened to music on, you'd find out how close to dead vinyl is.
I listen to both but you'd have to be blind not to no CD is alive and well and always will be.

 

Better, cheaper, faster, posted on June 21, 2012 at 16:26:34
Sturmey
Audiophile

Posts: 340
Location: No. California
Joined: March 14, 2003
 I've migrated to computer-based music, but still keep a few nice CD players, and a wonderful turntable, along with collections of CDs and LPs. I have three criteria for this issue:

1) Does it sound better? For redbook my Squeezebox touch with V-DAC sounds better than my $2,000 modified Shanling SACD player, my modified Jolida JD601 tubed player, and my Oppo BDP-95. My turntable sounds better than everything with only a few albums, and not as good as anything else on most records. Winner: Computer digital in a walkaway.

2) Is it more cost effective? I sold the Shanling SACD player for $500 recently, which paid for the Touch and the V-DAC. I buy used CDs online through Amazon, usually for $1 plus the cost of shipping, so I often buy several at a time from an online vendor. Usually they arrive brand-new, in the original packaging, and I can get a half dozen for around $10. I comb the used CD bins in Berkeley, CA for classic treasures, and rarely pay more than $5 for a CD. They will typically buy them back for around $2-3. I play new CDs once or twice on a CD player, than download them, playing them many times more from my Buffalo hard drive via wifi ('cause they sound better that way). Winner: Computer digital in a rout for the sound quality per dollar (free in my case, sort of), and a push for cost of media.

3) Is it more convenient? In my house Squeezebox receivers in three different systems are managed from the SB controller or my Samsung smartphone. I usually play my entire CD collection on Random, and try that on a CD player or turntable! Anything I want to listen to, in seconds, glitch free, from a handheld remote that shows the artwork and other info if I want it. Winner: computer digital in a slam dunk.

I have lots of SACDs and DVD-As, so the Oppo does double duty in the home theater. The higher res media sounds awfully good on the Oppo, as it did on the Shanling; a bit better than the Squeezebox systems for most redbook albums. The V-DAC is not what you would call a hi-end D/A converter, so I'm perpetually looking for a new D/A, which will surely level the playing field somewhat. They keep getting better and cheaper, so I wait.

I guess you could call me an old guy, as I've been through every media but 78s with some gusto. I sold vinyl shipped in via Greyhound in the dorms during the sixties. Computer digital is nirvana for me, and I'm hearing songs in the far corners of my collection that I've never heard, or only played once. The enjoyment factor is off the charts by comparison.

If I were willing to spend several thousand dollars for a state-of-the art CD player I'm sure I could up the ante somewhat, although I'm not at all sure how much better than the Oppo it gets. But $500 for a digital front-end that blows me away repeatedly is undoubtedly a game changer, and the technology is still improving.

The CD/DVD/SACD form factor is not going away any time soon in my opinion, but CD player manufacturers at all levels are going to suffer. There will be extreme industry failures and consolidation, particularly given the efficiency of the used CD player markets and the plethora of wonderful players out there that people are no longer using. Dead? The vinyl comparison doesn't hold water because of the sound quality advantage and legacy collections....for now. When computer digital sounds better than any CD player under $5,000 (or some inflection point $ number, maybe $2000, who knows?)then there will be very few new CD players made. There will be terrific CD player buys on Audiogon for many years.

When a $500 computer audio front-end sounds better in my system than the wildly touted Oppo BDP-95,which is a universal as well as a great CD player, then it seems to me that stand-alone CD player manufacturers are toast. I just gave away my gorgeous Nakamichi cassette player and matching Walkman, by the way, and tossed the cassettes. The Samsung phone will accept 60 uncompressed albums on a memory card, and sounds wonderful. Try doing that from a CD player!

 

OK, why did 8 track and Cassettes die?........................nt, posted on June 21, 2012 at 17:07:19
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 10213
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
 nt

Cut-Throat




 

convenience and more, posted on June 21, 2012 at 18:28:50
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4332
Joined: February 3, 2001
 Almost immediate access to any song with the push of a button, and from a remote at that, beats FAST FORWARD and REWIND buttons 24-7-365. Add program capabilities and both formats were nearly done.

Once CD-Rs came into play, tape lost its one advantage -- recording -- to a medium that made a perfect copy (something tape couldn't do).

 

exactly what computer audio has over CDs................nt, posted on June 21, 2012 at 18:43:42
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 10213
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
 nt

Cut-Throat




 

RE: I am espousing computer audio because it can sound better., posted on June 21, 2012 at 19:42:28
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 I think we are there now. just the other day I read a report where the computer beat a $16k cdp:

here

Sure there are some crappy computer setups out there and it isnt always as easy as buy this usb dac connect and sound better than a cdp. But it is possible these days.

An example to is the Bryston transport which is essentially a computer with a $150 soundcard running linux. Sure there are some linear psus in there but you could duplicate this effort pretty easily and get most of the performance for a bunch less.

What is funny to me is that no one questions that transport because it looks like an audio component. But start talking about your linux computer with a Juli@ sound card and audiophiles get skeptical....

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 21, 2012 at 20:47:04
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Sorry to hear that.

I am not surprised. It is pretty easy to screw up computer audio.

What was your system and what was the cdp?

One thing that most people screw up is not dedicating the computer to audio ONLY.

ANother thing is that people get cheap. They expect to spend $250 and beat a good cdp. That is a stretch.

I am assuming that these downloads werent mp3s right??

Weird that downloads werent sounding good. Something is going on. WHich player were you using and where were these downloads from??

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 21, 2012 at 21:50:54
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hi Bob,

PHEW, GLAD WE'VE GOT THAT ONE OFF THE TABLE, THOUGH THIS SEEMS LIKE A BIT OF
A RETRENCHMENT?

Yikes. Given this reaction and that of Soulfood it is clear that there are some out there who just havent lived without disks. Anyone who has put all their music on computer will understand my statement. THere is no retrenchment or whatever Soulfood accused me of doing.

Let me try to explain it. When I say more music I really mean music you might not remember or havent heard in years. See most of the time I think most of us listen to the same 30% of our collections. Most cds probably have 3-4 good songs on them and the other 7 get quickly forgotten. When it is all on a computer you can get those songs easily if you want. I hear songs I never knew I had some times.

So I am not necessarily saying that you get to listen to MORE music because it is too hard without a computer. NOt at all. Like most philes I dont mind some effort to hear the music come alive. That comment really spoke to listening to more of your music collection.

Here is a post by Gordon that speaks to it better than I can:
here

Yes better reproduction of the music is what I mean by better sound. Actually I cant think of how they could differ.

Yeah I too like to focus on the music. Sit in the listening chair and just connect. Believe it or not I AM an audiophile. I knew there was a stigma about computers but I thought that was long dead. Guess not.

IME the computer brings me closer than my cdp/dac did. That is why I keep the computer. If it didnt offer better sound then I would be spinning disks.

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: Vinyl is analog...it will stay......CDs are Digital, so are Hard Drives.....The CD is Dead!.......nt, posted on June 21, 2012 at 21:57:33
jaydacus
Audiophile

Posts: 412
Joined: October 15, 2009
 "Vinyl is analog...it will stay......CDs are Digital, so are Hard Drives.....The CD is Dead!"



Finally someone gets it! Exactly what I have been saying from the start. The only reason we still have vinyl hanging around is because it was the best analog technology. The CD WAS the best digital technology up until now. We are at a turning point here.

The people saying that computer based systems never did for them either assumed that the CDs would sound better and so they did or they were doing it wrong. I promise you that a USB based DAC starting at around the 1k price point on a properly configured PC will beat out all but the most exotic $$$$$ CD players.

So yeah, right now there is still a niche for plastic discs at the high end, but as people continue to loose interest they will sell for less and less and eventually find their way to Goodwill. Maybe someday a once 20k CD player will end up on the same dusty shelf as a once $600 DVD player, $700 VCR, or $900 professional 8 Track recorder.







 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 21, 2012 at 21:58:31
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hi Bill,

Yeah I know your experiences are vastly different than most in regards to computer audio.

But I can be hopeful right??

If you can see the benefits then maybe your generation is not a total write off.

I still think if I could snap my fingers and put a computer based system in every inmates system that most would see the benefits and switch. No if we could just remove the barriers to good sound from a computer I think I could go back to listening :)

This is really like those pictures at the mall where you stare at them long enough and the picture changes. And once you see the new picture you can readily see it again.

Sadly alot of inmates havent seen the picture change like you have.

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: Two Ways of Talking, posted on June 21, 2012 at 22:06:12
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hi Bob,

Hopefully the market will be all about music reproduction. If it isnt then what good is it. As an audiophile I am only interested in improving music reproduction and getting my system to sound as real as it can.

My point is that a computer based system can absolutely serve music reproduction as well as a disk and even better. PLUS it can be more convenient.

That is why I agree in general with the OP that disks are dying.

Also on a different note. You can connect more with the music. As a test I was playing with elyric which is PS audios ap for their network dac. I selected an album and it played. But it also gave me the option to get the groups bio. WIth a button press I had the bands history and discography. You cant do that with a cd. And with more and more hirez files coming out well it just is a no brainer.

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: Young users, posted on June 21, 2012 at 22:09:48
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Sordid,

Anything is possible. I hope they can get engaged on sq.

Sad thing is that most youth only know the mp3 version of the music and right there sq is gone.

And FWIW I am old and not in touch with todays youth.

Heck I dont even know the people you listed.

Anyhow the amount of good desktop amps/dacs/ speakers is way more than ever before.

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: Better, cheaper, faster, posted on June 21, 2012 at 22:20:21
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Sturm,

That is the kind of experience I am talking about. I love your criterion and how the computer based system meets all that.

Cost effective is the main reason I went with the computer myself. It was cheaper, sounded better, and did more. I can run crossovers, eq, and room correction. No cdp I have ever seen can do that.

ALso have you seen soundchecks tweaks for the touch? Supposed to improve things big time. Give it a try if you havent already

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 21, 2012 at 22:27:24
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Probably. But they will go there. The end result will be the same.

Kids are growing up without a cdp just like they did before without an 8 track.

Just a matter of time.

And I have said this here before but you may not have seen it. To be precise my view is that CD PLAYBACK is dying. I still buy disks and hope they are made for a while. But I havent played a disk in a long long long while. Except for the dvd player and the drive on the computer I have nothing to play them back with.

Heck didnt apple just launch a computer or laptop without a drive. It was a major deal recently. The world is changing and physical media are going to be a thing of the past. DVDs are dying too. Why wait in the mail for a dvd or run to the store when you can just click a button on your TV screen and enjoy....

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 21, 2012 at 23:04:00
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 1738
Location: SF Bay area
Joined: February 6, 2005
 > If you can see the benefits then maybe your generation is not
> a total write off.

rick_m and Tony might give you hope too.

> I still think if I could snap my fingers and put a computer based system
> in every inmates system that most would see the benefits and switch.

Maybe. You've gotten a response or two that indicates that some people would be very uncomfortable.

Bill




my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/

 

RE: Vinyl is analog...it will stay......CDs are Digital, so are Hard Drives.....The CD is Dead!.......nt, posted on June 22, 2012 at 04:21:51
tmsorosk
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Location: Sprucegrove Ab.
Joined: October 31, 2010
 jaydacus said, " I promise you that a USB based DAC starting at around 1K price point on a properly configured PC will beat out all but the most exotic $$$$CD players " LOL. I guess were all entitled to are own opinion, my opinion is pretty much opposite of the above statement.
Never trust anyone that makes promises based own there own personal opinion.

 

"The end result [CD relative to 8 track] will be the same." Weary time traveler? -nt, posted on June 22, 2012 at 04:45:41
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 3310
Joined: August 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: July 18, 2011
 nt

 

RE: "The end result [CD relative to 8 track] will be the same." Weary time traveler? -nt, posted on June 22, 2012 at 08:21:28
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 We'll see.

Did you see the post on here about the CBC digitizing and selling their cd collection and albums too?

The writing is on the wall man.

CBC

Also dvds are declining too as more and more downloads and streaming take over:

dvd

Books too are headed that way. The future is digital.

Here is a question for you. Are typewriters a thing of the past? WHY??

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: Young users, posted on June 22, 2012 at 08:55:54
tom.dennehy
Manufacturer

Posts: 105
Location: Detroit MI
Joined: February 29, 2012
 Contrary to the long-held belief that young listeners think lossy compressed music is "just fine," my Harman colleague Dr. Sean Olive has published results from the first peer-reviewed scientific test showing that young listeners will in fact prefer CD-quality audio over lossy alternatives when given the choice. They also preferred "accurate sound reproduction" (translated: big speakers) over lesser alternatives.

The trouble is, even if young people can be shown to want sound quality, they still don't want no stinkin' CDs. Just look at the Emily White v. David Lowery flame war.

CD sales are declining and will fall off the cliff when older listeners stop buying new music. Everyone who needs a home CD player probably has one (in the form of a Blu-ray player or an Xbox). CD players are disappearing as original equipment in vehicles, replaced by iPod/USB ports.

Not only is the CD player dead, it is starting to smell bad.

 

RE: "The end result [CD relative to 8 track] will be the same." Weary time traveler? -nt, posted on June 22, 2012 at 09:31:25
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 3310
Joined: August 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: July 18, 2011
 You really think those links substantiate your predictions? A gently used crystal ball would be more credible.

"Here is a question for you. Are typewriters a thing of the past? WHY??"

So, the advent of word processing keyboards is one of your predictions? My guess is you've never predicted anything that became true. Besides, it's not as big of a leap as mental telepathy. Something more in your wheelhouse.

 

RE: "The end result [CD relative to 8 track] will be the same." Weary time traveler? -nt, posted on June 22, 2012 at 10:31:11
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 You really think those links substantiate your predictions? A gently used crystal ball would be more credible.

Yes I do and as I said we will see. There are so many negatives for the longterm survival of cdp that it isnt even funny. Sales of dvd players are falling and so are cd sales. If the disks are so needed then why did the CBC get rid of them? Clearly disks arent needed so they will pass.

So, the advent of word processing keyboards is one of your predictions? My guess is you've never predicted anything that became true. Besides, it's not as big of a leap as mental telepathy. Something more in your wheelhouse.

I guess we just arent communicating. I didnt predict the demise of the typewriter, but I think it is safe to say that it IS dead. WHY? Because it isnt needed and current solutions are better and easier. Just like the cdp is not needed.

Oh and that is a classy move trying to insult my intelligence. Looks like you are getting desperate.

Obviously you like the cdp. Good luck with that. Me I think Linn and Ayre, Wavelength, etc. are more in touch with reality and know that the physical medium is dead.



Cutting razor sounding violins

 

RE: "The end result [CD relative to 8 track] will be the same." Weary time traveler? -nt, posted on June 22, 2012 at 13:12:00
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 3310
Joined: August 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: July 18, 2011
 "Yes I do and as I said we will see. There are so many negatives for the longterm survival of cdp that it isnt even funny."

This type of vagueness makes me wonder what we're debating about. If you don't want to commit to a timetable, is it fair to say it will occur in our lifetime?

"Obviously you like the cdp." LOL, you're the one with the CD phobia. I'll be fine no matter what.

"Me I think Linn and Ayre, Wavelength, etc. are more in touch with reality and know that the physical medium is dead."

Dead? Now, you're either worshiping false prophets or misrepresenting their gospel. Maybe if you stay the course long enough they'll deliver you from your transgressions.

As you've said, "Good luck with that."

 

The only reason CDs were invented is that Hard Drives were too Expensive........, posted on June 22, 2012 at 16:47:27
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 10213
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
 Now Hard Drives are Cheap...... Solid State Drives are next up. Digital is Digital. What medium you store them on is for Speed, Economy and Convenience.

I have sold all my CD players while they were worth something.



Cut-Throat




 

Pros and Cons, posted on June 23, 2012 at 04:46:32
tmsorosk
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Location: Sprucegrove Ab.
Joined: October 31, 2010
 Not only are hard drives cheaper but if you have a decent computer and DAC, you have free digital storage. Storage is likely a good thing to call it for me, I put hundreds of disc's on my I-Mac a couple of years ago and connected it to my main system DAC and haven't listened to music that way more than a few times.
Whats that old saying, you can't teach an old dog new tricks, particularly if that old dog is a stubborn old audio fool like myself. Maybe my ii year old daughter is right when she saids, " come on dad get out of your rut ".

 

Intereting detailed observations, posted on June 23, 2012 at 06:43:39
Audio Snob
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Your description makes it seen simple and desirable to switch to computer audio.

You describe a $500 front end. However, you don't mention the cost of the computer or any associated cabling. Are you using a dedicated computer for feeding the Squeezebox? If so, is it just some plain old computer or some tricked out fire breather? And does connecting it to the Squeezebox involve anything complicated or expensive?

What I guess I'm asking is what is the "total" front end cost for your setup?

 

Tapes not dead its coming back and CD will be about for decades , posted on June 23, 2012 at 14:12:43
Kloss
Manufacturer

Posts: 820
Location: WI
Joined: January 25, 2012
 http://musicians.about.com/od/musicindustrybasics/qt/cdsaredead.htm

 

Well, so are Kerosene Lamps, we use them for dinner parties.....but not for our main source of lighting....nt, posted on June 23, 2012 at 16:18:33
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 10213
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
 nt

Cut-Throat




 

Kerosene Lamps are dead., posted on June 23, 2012 at 17:47:53
Kloss
Manufacturer

Posts: 820
Location: WI
Joined: January 25, 2012
 And so last century. Step up to LED.

 

RE: Intereting detailed observations, posted on June 23, 2012 at 18:03:19
Sturmey
Audiophile

Posts: 340
Location: No. California
Joined: March 14, 2003
 You make a good point. Foe me, everything else was already here.

I already had the computer, hard drive, and the wifi router which I use for business that I run out of my house. The computer is a five year old Dell Vostro 1700, with Intel Core 2 Duo, and Vista; certainly nothing special but it still runs perfectly. The buffalo 2TB TeraStation hard drive is pretty nice, predates the music system, and also keeps my business files for the last couple of decades. The router cost $80 and replaced a very old Cisco unit that died recently. I did spend about $130 on a nice digital cable, which made a big difference, but I had several other cables I used for over a year before buying this one. Interconnects I also already had (I tried half a dozen from the bone-yard in my closet) and the same with decent power cords.

Being a veteran hobbyist and established computer networker, the incremental cost was $500. If you were starting from scratch, I agree that it's a different story. You don't want to know how much the Aerial Acoustics 7.1 speaker system costs....

All the best.

Jeff

 

"established computer networker"...still running Vista....rolls eyes., posted on June 23, 2012 at 21:01:32
jaydacus
Audiophile

Posts: 412
Joined: October 15, 2009
 OK

 

RE: The only reason CDs were invented is that Hard Drives were too Expensive........, posted on June 24, 2012 at 07:57:12
mls-stl
Audiophile

Posts: 3039
Location: St. Louis
Joined: April 11, 2006
 >> The only reason CDs were invented is that Hard Drives were too Expensive........

The "ONLY" reason? Ummm, not quite.

First, the CD was invented in the 1970s and released to the public in 1982. The IBM XT with a 10 MB hard drive didn't come out until 1983 (we bought one that year where I worked at the time.) Hard drive space was far too precious and storage size way too limited to use for music. Note that it would be another 10 years before the MP3 compression codec became available.

Second, hard drive or not, one still needs a way to distribute music to the public. When the CD was released in 1982, dial-up modems with a transfer rate of 1200 baud were the hot rods of the day (many home users still used 300 baud) and your on-line time was charged by the minute.

Downloading an uncompressed music file (no MP3 yet and the zip file didn't exist either at that point) would have been an impossible task with no place to store it if you could get it.

In short, the music CD was a pretty miraculous invention in its day and there simply was no other digital alternative.

 

Don't know much about computer playback but . . ., posted on June 24, 2012 at 10:08:56
psgary
Audiophile

Posts: 7960
Location: So. California
Joined: January 24, 2001
 I know what I like. Others can enlighten me about computer-based playback systems if they like. I have no objection to that because I am definitely out of touch with new methods of playing music.

What I like is to be able to peruse my shelves of CDs and quickly pluck whatever suits my fancy. The only digital files I deal with are on my mp3 players, and overall they are a pain in the neck. I detest having to scroll through a list of songs and programs. The same is true when I look for music tracks on my computer. It is much faster to scan a shelf of CDs. Feel free to explain how computer-based music changes that. I really don't know.

I also like the convenience of skipping back and forth for tracks on a CD player. Again, on my mp3 player it is most incovenient, unless I'm moving forward. To back up, I have to go back to the menu and fiddle around. Of course, on a computer that is not true. The mouse can move up or down to select a track.

Few in this thread have touched on aesthetics. Personally, I don't want a computer, even a laptop, in my living room, which is also my music room. Doesn't computer playback require a screen? Having one TV screen in a room is enough for me.

Attempting to deal with reality, I recognize that people are moving to computer-based systems more and more. Therefore, I am building up a collection of CDs that could last a lifetime much longer than what I have left. That is also true of CD players. I have 3 good backup units, having just acquired a used Cary 303/300 as my main player. Speaking of which, I intend to look into buying another transport for it and keeping that in my audio closet, should the laser on the Cary ever die. That happened to a Rotel I had, my first audiophile CDP. My fingers will be crossed that someone can be found to swap transports if necessary.

None of this is meant to imply that those who enjoy computer systems should change their choice of playback. Just as I no longer care for dealing with vinyl, some find purely digital files more to their liking. I only hope that CD lovers will be able to indulge their passion for many years to come.

 

RE: Young users, posted on June 24, 2012 at 10:21:04
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hi Tom,

Thanks for posting this. I wasnt aware of that research and man is it great that there is hope for the current generation.

Getting rid of the physical media is a no brainer especially if you can retain or better the sound quality.

Love that "starting to smell bad" line! It so true!

FWIW I got into computer audio by trying to improve the sound of my cds. I was burning copies using black cds and Audio Master Quality burning and the new disks did sound better. Doing that left me with the files on the computer and the rest they say is history.





Cutting razor sounding violins

 

I was in the computer industry for 30 years..........., posted on June 24, 2012 at 11:25:52
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 10213
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
 So, no need to nit pick.

....All of the reasons you gave were for Cost Savings. Hard Drive space to precious (Read...Expensive)...No way to distribute to the Public (Yes there was, but it was expensive)..

"In short, the music CD was a pretty miraculous invention in its day and there simply was no other digital alternative." (Because of the EXPENSE!)

Hence the CD...

Cut-Throat




 

"Cost savings" , posted on June 24, 2012 at 12:37:13
mls-stl
Audiophile

Posts: 3039
Location: St. Louis
Joined: April 11, 2006
 It is always interesting when people get an urge to defend their original post as if it was a complete analysis of a situation.

Your phrase "cost savings" implies there was something an ordinary consumer could have bought in 1982 if it hadn't been so pricey -- kind of like a lot more people would be driving a 2012 BMW 525i if they sold for $20,000 instead of $50,000.

Forget the price -- that was irrelevant. When the CD was introduced in 1982, there was no hard drive alternative available to consumers that had any practical use for music storage. Pretending that the only drawback of a 10 MB drive for music storage was the price tag is silly. Pretending there were consumer HD options available with gigabytes of storage is equally silly, as is suggesting the ordinary consumer any other options for receiving, storing and playing 700 MB of digital music data 30 years ago.

 

You're a Nit Picker...*, posted on June 24, 2012 at 12:49:00
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 10213
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
 *

Cut-Throat




 

Curious..., posted on June 24, 2012 at 13:32:23
mls-stl
Audiophile

Posts: 3039
Location: St. Louis
Joined: April 11, 2006
 >> RE: You're a Nit Picker...*

What's your description for yourself in getting hyper-sensitive about the perfection of your original post?

 

RE: Don't know much about computer playback but . . ., posted on June 24, 2012 at 14:02:04
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey PSG,

I know what I like. Others can enlighten me about computer-based playback systems if they like. I have no objection to that because I am definitely out of touch with new methods of playing music.

Now that sounds like an open mind! You are ALREADY ahead of the pack.

What I like is to be able to peruse my shelves of CDs and quickly pluck whatever suits my fancy. The only digital files I deal with are on my mp3 players, and overall they are a pain in the neck. I detest having to scroll through a list of songs and programs. The same is true when I look for music tracks on my computer. It is much faster to scan a shelf of CDs. Feel free to explain how computer-based music changes that. I really don't know.

You are right. Most programs I know of are "Song Based" and I dont know about you but I am not. I am album based and am used to the whole 10 songs being on the album. Like you I find navigating on a song basis tiresome. BUT not every player like that and some that is just the default. You are probably used to iTunes. I hate that program mostly for what you describe. Though I bet it can be set up to be album based.

I for one set up my computer to act like a cdp. It is album based and I can search for albums as i used to on my cd collection. Everyone is different on this. The main thing is that once you get it, the computer can be much faster and more powerful. Some love being able in seconds to find all their Mahler 5ths sorted by composer. How about all the works that Karajan conducted. I'll race you on those!! Old listener can chime in on that point as he is better versed. But especially if you have classical the computer is much more powerful.

One thing to check out is album player (www.albumplayer.com). It is album based and while the setup is more challenging than most it can function like a cd collection complete with the cases. It can be configured to play directly the album you select. And IIRC you can get it to random through your whole collection. Try doing that on a cdp.

Playlists come to mind too. I dont use them but a lot do. This is the genesis of my "you listen to more music because it is easier" comment that has confused some people.

I also like the convenience of skipping back and forth for tracks on a CD player. Again, on my mp3 player it is most incovenient, unless I'm moving forward. To back up, I have to go back to the menu and fiddle around. Of course, on a computer that is not true. The mouse can move up or down to select a track.

Yes. You can also have the computer work with a remote control or a network player function without a mouse using a smart device. Mouse control is not what I like. Moving a cursor around is not something I want in my computer audio. But some do and that is fine for them. You definitely can skip easily between tracks on the same disk.

Few in this thread have touched on aesthetics. Personally, I don't want a computer, even a laptop, in my living room, which is also my music room. Doesn't computer playback require a screen? Having one TV screen in a room is enough for me.

LOL. For me 100s of cds in racks and shelves are not aesthetic at all! Much better to ditch the disks. Now adays the computer doesnt have to look like a computer. Here is an old post with some non-computer looking components and today there are many more options:

here

And yes a screen is needed. It could be built into the "computer" and be a touch screen:




There are players that are networked like Linn, Ps Audio, Solos, squeezebox, etc. The Screen can be your ipad or smartphone.

You can probably find a system that can use your existing TV.

The "screen" is no longer and issue.

Today the "computers" can be even smaller than a cdp.

Attempting to deal with reality, I recognize that people are moving to computer-based systems more and more. Therefore, I am building up a collection of CDs that could last a lifetime much longer than what I have left. That is also true of CD players. I have 3 good backup units, having just acquired a used Cary 303/300 as my main player. Speaking of which, I intend to look into buying another transport for it and keeping that in my audio closet, should the laser on the Cary ever die. That happened to a Rotel I had, my first audiophile CDP. My fingers will be crossed that someone can be found to swap transports if necessary.

Good for you. But I have to tell you, you already know things are inevitable!!!! And those disks might not last as long as you think. IIRC there has been some reports of the data layer or something disintegrating. Sure hard drives are an issue but you can make many copies.

None of this is meant to imply that those who enjoy computer systems should change their choice of playback. Just as I no longer care for dealing with vinyl, some find purely digital files more to their liking. I only hope that CD lovers will be able to indulge their passion for many years to come.

If you get not dealing with vinyl you are already heading to a diskless system. You just dont know it yet. The same thoughts of vinyl apply to disks once you ditch them....

I hope that any audiophile can indulge their passion for years to come. I am just not optimistic that cds and the players are anykind of long term play.

Also if you do it right the computer can have no fan and no moving parts....

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

I appreciate guys like you...I sold all of my CD Players to them.........nt, posted on June 24, 2012 at 15:47:33
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 10213
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
 nt

Cut-Throat




 

lots of possibilities, posted on June 24, 2012 at 21:12:57
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 1738
Location: SF Bay area
Joined: February 6, 2005

Dawnrazor,

> Most programs I know of are "Song Based" ...

I find that statement to be puzzling. I would not describe iTunes, Foobar2000, JRiver MC, the Squeezebox system or the Sonos system to be "song oriented".

Most full featured players let you chose from a variety of ways to browse your collection.

I'd guess that selecting an artist and then one of his/her albums is the most commonly used browsing methods.

iTunes and JRiver MC will let pick from a 3D "wall" of albums first if you like.

---

psgary,

> The Screen can be your ipad or smartphone.

Or a laptop at your listening position or the TV in thew room. The computer need not have a keyboard mouse and screen attached. My MusicPC doesn't.

> Old listener can chime in on that point as he is better versed.
> But especially if you have classical the computer is much more powerful.

A full-featured player like JRiver MC will let you define a browsing scheme that's just right for what you want to do. And if you want to browse a very different way sometimes, you can design another browsing scheme for that need.

I most often browse classical music by Composer, then Work and Performer. If I choose, I can narrow things down by type of music (chamber, concerto, orchestral, piano, etc.) or by version (for multiple remasterings.) If I want to start with Performer instead, I can do that using the same browsing scheme. The link below shows that scheme.

For jazz or rock, I can start with Performer, Album name or song name.

It takes me about 1-2 minutes to create a new scheme for browsing if I decide I want one.

---
Computer audio is about deciding what you want to do and then finding the means to achieve that. As you learn more, more possibilities occur to you. If you are willing to learn and think, it need not cost much by audiophile standards.

Bill



my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/

 

RE: I appreciate guys like you...I sold all of my CD Players to them.........nt, posted on June 24, 2012 at 21:22:46
jaydacus
Audiophile

Posts: 412
Joined: October 15, 2009
 Let me know when this process starts looking more difficult than finding the CD that your looking for on a shelf, taking it out of the case, placing it into your player and pressing "play".

Photobucket

Photobucket

Photobucket

The argument of physical CDs allowing you to see album art and read about what you are listening to is just silly. This is just reviews of the album and general information. Go to the Wiki and you can learn everything about the album and even the entire history of the band. Try getting that from your CD sleeve.

Photobucket

Photobucket

These files can be displayed on another computer using a remote desktop session or even played over a wireless network. People that say "The whole PC audio thing is just too complicated" are just being old fashioned.

For output, you can go as simple as a pair of headphones connected to the headphone jack of your laptop all the way up to a $10,000 DAC connected to your PC. Connect similar devices to a CD transport and the sound will not be any better. The obvious upsides are no discs to get scratched or lose, no skipping.....ever, and the music physically takes up much less space than 403 CDs and cases would.

I think the comment about someone saying that CDs cannot be replaced by a PC being a lot like saying that engines will never replace horses was very valid.




 

RE: I appreciate guys like you...I sold all of my CD Players to them.........nt, posted on June 25, 2012 at 05:52:24
tmsorosk
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Location: Sprucegrove Ab.
Joined: October 31, 2010
 Incase anyone hasn't noticed, there is room and market for more than one format. And no format is perfect.

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 25, 2012 at 07:44:22
tom.dennehy
Manufacturer

Posts: 105
Location: Detroit MI
Joined: February 29, 2012
 The Wall Street Journal weighed in last Saturday.
It's Time to Make Your CDs Obsolete. "Rip those discs, clear the clutter and finally join the future of music."

Cheers!

 

RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track, posted on June 25, 2012 at 23:08:01
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 11413
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Nice article there!

YES!! I love that analogy of an install disk for music!

That is EXACTLY what I do with the cds. Rip and put away.

Cutting razor sounding violins

 

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