Naim's first DAC...

RE: Naim's first DAC..., posted on November 6, 2009 at 20:15:17
Bruce B Industry Professional Posts: 413 Location: Seattle Joined: February 9, 2001 Contributor Since: December 27, 2005	Yeah, they borrowed some DXD files from me at RMAF to try their unit out. Too bad the track wouldn't fit on a 2GB thumb drive. I had to cut up the files!

RE: Naim's first DAC..., posted on August 31, 2009 at 15:31:28

Sunya
Audiophile

Posts: 386
Joined: July 11, 2007

The interesting thing is that it can also play WAV files with sample rates up to 768kHz stored on USB memory sticks; this is cool because you can also listen to DXD files and compare them with the same tracks at lower sample rates very easily.

What I don't like is the lack of a remote control and a display which shows you the titles of the files stored on the USB stick and their resolution/sample rate. Without these it will be difficult to browse between the files and if you have the same song at different sample rates you won't know to which one you're listening to (useful for a blind test).

And with all the hype of apodizing filters it would have been nice to have these as well.

RE: Naim's first DAC..., posted on September 1, 2009 at 03:11:06
Werner Audiophile Posts: 1829 Joined: September 30, 1999	"And with all the hype of apodizing filters it would have been nice to have these as well." The digital filter is minimum phase (heck, even IIR!), but as far as I can see in Naim's blurb there isn't an awful amount of attenuation at Fs/2. So it belongs more to the Cambridge camp than the Meridian camp. bring back dynamic range

Lack of remote?, posted on August 31, 2009 at 17:02:09

kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 5085
Joined: July 8, 2001

Can you just get one of these?
Since it's Apple Certified, I'd assume that it should work with all future apple accessories.

RE: Lack of remote?, posted on August 31, 2009 at 19:06:24

Sunya
Audiophile

Posts: 386
Joined: July 11, 2007

Correct me if I'm wrong but the impression I got reading a little on the Naim forum is that this thing would control an Apple device connected to the DAC and not the DAC itself. And even if it did control the DAC how would you browse between the files stored on a memory stick if it doesn't have a display? It's the same thing with the controls on the front panel, it has prev, next, stop, play but it doesn't have a display to show you to what you give these commands.

Edit:

I've come accross the DAC's page on the Naim website and this is what they say:

"The Naim DAC can be controlled by a Naim preamplifier remote control, seamlessly integrating analogue and digital inputs across the two units. The DAC becomes an extension of the preamplifier. And when a USB stick, iPod or iPhone is docked, the DAC front panel input buttons transform to operate as playback controls."

But still no display. And on the remote they are not very specific if you can use it just to change between the digital inputs or you can also use it when a USB stick is connected to browse between the files.

well, I guess you have to audition to get the real scoop..., posted on August 31, 2009 at 19:44:20
kuma Audiophile Posts: 5085 Joined: July 8, 2001	it's somewhat ironic for me because I wished for a Naim DAC 5 years ago when I was still interested in HD playback. I moved away from this type of replay all together and went back to the analogue land instead. So, I am not paying much attention, but I would love to hear what they did with it.

Personally..., posted on August 31, 2009 at 16:29:09
jusbe Audiophile Posts: 2822 Location: Yorkshire Joined: April 4, 2000	...I wish they had employed a more recent DAC, like one by AKM maybe.Still, nice to see the strong link to Apple - a smart move. If they are fishing for future Naim customers, this iPod-Touch-wielding target group makes sense. big j "...only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."

RE: Naim's first DAC..., posted on August 31, 2009 at 08:19:53

Sunya
Audiophile

Posts: 386
Joined: July 11, 2007

RE: Naim's first DAC..., posted on August 30, 2009 at 13:50:03

Vik
Audiophile

Posts: 1031
Location: Rochester, NY
Joined: January 1, 2002

I have always liked Naim gear since I heard my friends 52 level olive kit years ago in Atlanta. Back then Naim was sort of a throwback manufacturer what with the abundance of outboard power supplies, the shunning of RCA jacks in favor of DIN ones, and a complete head in the sand approach to the coming onslaught of home theater gear. It used to be Naim was one of the companies that ran counter to the rest of the industry and in so doing became, a hi-fi leader and stalwart for the traditional 2-channel listener.

Things changed along the way. RCA jacks were added. That was nice because it let people dabble into Naim with their other gear. Then Naim introduced a satellite sub combo that was targeted to HT uses. A sub? Really? What happened to PRAT? What happened to what Naim (through its dealers) was telling us for decades that a sub just couldn't integrate into a stereo system and maintain any sense of coherent rhythm? The last straw was the introduction of new power plugs/cords. I feel like Julian Verker's company is no more. That's when my eyebrow went up and I began to sense Naim had lost its way. The 2 channel lunatics has lost control of the asylum to the marketers.

Now, there comes the DAC. Naim for the longest time never made a DAC even when it became de riguer in the late 80's to do so. They claimed that it was because or jitter or some such spec. I recall a Naim poll that automatically excluded you from even being a Naim head or having a flat earth system if you even had a DAC of ANY sort in your system. But now that computer audio seems to be unavoidable, Naim has abandoned those values that made it unique in my mind and are just another one of the lemmings in high end audio.

Don't get me wrong. I still like Naim. Great stuff, clear improvements as you go up the line, and a clear and definable perspective on the music-all noteworthy attributes for a manufacturer in my mind. Honestly they are one of the few SS manufacturers that still interest me after all my years in the hobby (12 of them thank you very much) Moreover, I do think a sub can integrate into a 2-channel system (with an parametric EQ), and I do think a separate DAC can work so I can't say Naim is wrong in their conclusions, but I just miss the old Naim. The old Naim that may have been behind the times but at least they had some principles.

I sound like an old fart and I'm not even 30. Sigh...

RE: Naim's first DAC..., posted on November 6, 2009 at 00:47:41

Timbo

Naim's reluctance to recommend or support DACs historically was because of the unavoidable jitter that a transport-DAC combination introduces.
With the new DAC Naim have found a way round this - by reading the datastream into a memory buffer and then very accurately clocking it out to the convertor chips.
So I think the 'lemmings' comment was a bit on the harsh side. I suggest you have a read of the white paper:

http://www.naim-audio.com/download/Naim_DAC_White_Paper_Aug

For goodness sake., posted on August 31, 2009 at 16:32:39
jusbe Audiophile Posts: 2822 Location: Yorkshire Joined: April 4, 2000	Give me a break. Do you even own any of their gear? Times change. Things change. People change. Naim is doing what it must to remain in the game. big j "...only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."

RE: For goodness sake., posted on August 31, 2009 at 17:36:20

Vik
Audiophile

Posts: 1031
Location: Rochester, NY
Joined: January 1, 2002

Nope! Most tube systems always made Naim sound...affected. The 282 looks neat though.

What you call progress I call marketing to rope in new suckers. When you keep changing the marketing gibberish it becomes patently obvious your just just shilling new gear and not really making improvements. Naim had a mission statement of sort back in the day. Now, they are just another hi-fi company. Boring!

LOOK! Our NEW and IMPROVED NAIT!! It was just "upgraded" a few years ago but we've once again pushed the state of the art of audio research to offer you new found improvements. Buy it and you can have the opportunity to hear the true improvements in our upgraded Flatcap power supply.

It just gets old and Naim isn't alone in this particular type of marketing bull. I have to applaud Naim, and frankly can't blame them, for still being in business. Their products maintain their resale because they have created a legion of lemmings that think every new upgrade will get people closer to the music. I mean come on, how many chances do they get to get it right? Naim is a business. A business out to get your money and as much of it as they can. At least Naim used to be better at hiding the fact with a consistent approach.

Coming next from NAIM, [insert whatever typical audio drivel that amounts to progress i.e. cable elevators, interconnect gunk that improves PRAT, caps for unused DIN inputs, upgraded pucks for the transports yada yada yada] Buy it now!

Gimme me a break. The emperor not only doesn't have clothes he has jumped the shark.

Still love to hear the DAC though!
Emjoy,
Vik

LOL! (nt), posted on August 31, 2009 at 17:02:54
kuma Audiophile Posts: 5085 Joined: July 8, 2001	.

More surprise coming..., posted on August 30, 2009 at 18:02:50
kuma Audiophile Posts: 5085 Joined: July 8, 2001	All of their X series CD players are now equipped with a digital out.

I cant believe it, posted on August 30, 2009 at 11:20:44
audioengr Manufacturer Posts: 4088 Location: Oregon Joined: April 12, 2001	Another Mfg claiming zero jitter. This is impossible. The engineers need to have a talk with the marketing guys....

RE: I cant believe it, posted on September 1, 2009 at 15:28:45

rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2529
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005

They don't either. There is clearly a disconnect between marketing and engineering. Wow, that's a surprise...

I read the zero jitter claim on the link and in the 'audio adviser' catalog on the toilet tank, but their whitepaper isn't quite so bold. I like the strategy. I suppose that there is a possibility of ground bounce modulating the output optoisolator a little but I bet they did the implementation well.

As Hermanesqe said, what they are claiming is good isolation, not zero jitter.

Rick

I don't see where they made that claim, posted on August 31, 2009 at 22:17:25
hermanesque	Did you read just the article that Naim didn't write or the white paper that they did. The latter says "This eliminates jitter caused by S/PDIF." I don't see anywhere in the white paper where they claim the DAC has zero jitter.

RE: I don't see where they made that claim, posted on September 1, 2009 at 14:08:30
Zozo Audiophile Posts: 526 Location: Europe Joined: November 25, 2002	I don't want to be difficult, but online dictionaries say: "eliminate:get rid off, remove". This (to the average reader) means leaving nothing, i.e. zero.

I don't follow what you are saying, posted on September 1, 2009 at 17:40:38
hermanesque	Naim never said the device had zero jitter, they said it eliminated jitter induced from the spdif input, .something completely different than saying it had no jitter. So I don't understand your point..

"The First Jitter-Free DAC from Naim", posted on September 2, 2009 at 05:20:06

Plinko
Audiophile

Posts: 1359
Location: N East, USA
Joined: July 21, 2005

I'm sure the white paper is more accurate than the new/marketing or am I missing something?

Naim News

I sent an email and asked it about and they said they were going to update the news release, posted on September 2, 2009 at 09:46:44
hermanesque	so it doesn't say "jitter free DAC." It appears whoever said it looks like the marketing team is out of touch with the engineering team was correct

I had not seen the Naim press release which does claim jitter free, /nt, posted on September 2, 2009 at 07:50:24
hermanesque	nt

Maybe Naim mean you don't have to pay for the jitter - it comes free with the DAC? [nt], posted on September 2, 2009 at 08:36:52
chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com Reviewer Posts: 10208 Location: Lancashire. Joined: January 21, 2001	nt Today is a gift - that's why it's called the Present. Best Regards, Chris Redmond.

RE: I don't see where they made that claim, posted on September 1, 2009 at 10:10:24

chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com
Reviewer

Posts: 10208
Location: Lancashire.
Joined: January 21, 2001

"Did you read just the article that Naim didn't write or the white paper that they did."

Not sure about What Hi-Fi, but if I write a review it generally gets sent to the manufacturer first to correct any technical gaffs.

If the reviewer had read the white paper there's no way he'd be claiming zero jitter for the DAC, so more likely he read a press release which may have been designed to be...ambiguous on jitter.

I could be completely wrong however!

Today is a gift - that's why it's called the Present.

Best Regards,
Chris Redmond.

It's different in the UK, posted on September 1, 2009 at 22:24:41

Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 4320
Joined: August 1, 2001

>>if I write a review it generally gets sent to the manufacturer first to correct any technical gaffs. <<

They don't do that with the UK magazines. Beats me why not.

One mag reviewed our CD player and half the review complained about how the remote had not direct track access. Turned out that we had changed that two years prior but the importer mistakenly sent a demo unit with an old remote.

One e-mail would have straightened things out, but I guess that is too much work for some of those guys....

RE: It's different in the UK, posted on September 2, 2009 at 03:02:19

Alan Sircom
Reviewer

Posts: 57
Location: London
Joined: May 27, 2009

Some of us do, some of us don't submit reviews for fact-checking. I've worked on magazines that do and magazines that don't.

One of the reasons why those that don't, don't, is because of problems you would receive if the review is not exactly a rave. Because we sell on newsstand and have to chase exclusives, we tend to work to shorter lead-times in the UK than the US and we don't have as many 'work in progress' products that can be put in place if the manufacturer or distributor decides to throw their toys out of the pram.

Manufacturers have pulled 'broken' products after seeing a review, only to refuse to resubmit a replacement sample afterward. One ex-manufacturer approved the copy, only to have the boss countermand that approval and threaten legal action if the review was published on the day the magazine was supposed to go to the printers.

I'd prefer to submit product reviews for fact checking and often do just that. But this has left me with problems on more than one occasion.

-
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus magazine, from cold, windy and wet Englandshire

The newsstand sales seem to make a difference, posted on September 2, 2009 at 18:14:53

Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 4320
Joined: August 1, 2001

There is also more of an emphasis on getting an exclusive than in the US.

However, the system implemented by Stereophile (by a Brit, no less!) seems to work well. And Hi-Fi+ always treated us fairly and let us fact-check copy before it went to press also.

When all goes well, there's no cause for complaint. I think a lot of it boils down to the individual reviewer. David Allcock reviewed our phono stage for Hi-Fi News and did a superlative job. I think a lot of that was because he was genuinely impressed with the product and wanted find out more about it and our company and ended up doing a lot of research.

And there have been other occasions where the lack of fact-checking left us in a lurch. Part of the problem is finding quality writers. All I can say is that there is no surplus of those in any part of the world that I've encountered. Some of them seem to be paid by the piece and crank them out as quickly as possible....

Cheers,
Charles Hansen

RE: It's different in the UK, posted on September 2, 2009 at 08:35:25

chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com
Reviewer

Posts: 10208
Location: Lancashire.
Joined: January 21, 2001

Could there not be an agreement that when the manufacturer submits a product for review, he is giving permission for the review to published?

Of course I can appreciate that anything less than a rave review nowadays will be looked on by a manufacturer as being almost negative, but they shouldn't be able to pull the plug on any review if a draft is sent to them to correct any technical errors.

At the end of the day the manufacturers need the press as much as the press need them.

Today is a gift - that's why it's called the Present.

Best Regards,
Chris Redmond.

RE: It's different in the UK, posted on September 2, 2009 at 11:52:17

Alan Sircom
Reviewer

Posts: 57
Location: London
Joined: May 27, 2009

Problem is, like an embargo, such a document has no formal legal standing. If the manufacturer wants to rid themselves of a problem review by playing the 'broken' card, they are within their rights to do so. And if a magazine were to run a review having been informed the product was broken (even if that was not the case) all manner of nasties would ensue.

-
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus magazine, from cold, windy and wet Englandshire

Did you not notice the asterisk?, posted on August 31, 2009 at 11:07:25
keith_d Audiophile Posts: 931 Joined: June 15, 2002	And then mouse type: "*When not plugged into the mains." Legal made them.

RE: I cant believe it, posted on August 31, 2009 at 08:32:02

Sunya
Audiophile

Posts: 386
Joined: July 11, 2007

Here is their White Paper

Naim Dac

RE: I cant believe it, posted on August 30, 2009 at 14:45:12
chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com Reviewer Posts: 10208 Location: Lancashire. Joined: January 21, 2001	"And yes, the company has tested it, and measured the 300+kHz signal coming out of the analogue outputs!" That's me sold on it then - I always find 192kHz severely lacking in resolution so this is the answer to my dreams. If anyone is wondering, yes I'm being facetious. Today is a gift - that's why it's called the Present. Best Regards, Chris Redmond.

LMAO!, posted on August 30, 2009 at 15:18:59
Squonk Audiophile Posts: 1682 Location: Indianapolis Joined: August 17, 2005	300kHz? Yeah, for pussies. I'm waiting for 2mHz.

Would the Pace-Car help Naim with it's claim?, posted on August 30, 2009 at 13:47:41
howard Audiophile Posts: 2255 Location: No. California Joined: December 31, 1999	nt

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