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Stereophile John A summation of LM loudspeaker

99.111.118.190

Posted on December 11, 2016 at 06:46:18



The LM tweeters a copy of WE 597A this transducer was designed to cover the range of theater sound tracks at the time its limit is designed in and not a design limit of all horn designs. Many horn tweeters exist that have far greater extension like fostexs t500amk2 and t900a. You have BE designs from radan many others exist. While you are right about size in fully horn loaded systems the need to be a 5 way is a bit off and many 3 way horns though giant exist that cover ranges from 40hz-35khz. With horn design you have so many compromises to make sell-able products that most horns are hamstrung. Horns match best with horns size in horns maters. With stereophile and horns you guys are so newbie that its kind of sad at least we have Art dipping a toe in. Horn loudspeakers are one of the most historically important designs horn loading is become near common place in tweeters. Face it horns are modern are a very viable option in loudspeakers and can do what other designs can not. This alone justifies a more open attitude to horn exploration.

 

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Short version ... They don't know Jack nt, posted on December 11, 2016 at 07:42:11
bjh
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.


 

RE: , posted on December 11, 2016 at 07:48:48
Pretty sure both art and john know a bit more than they come across knowing in print. And it has been refreshing to see a bit of coverage of horn systems and a more open mind towards them.

 

RE: , posted on December 11, 2016 at 08:22:53
bjh
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They spent their careers marching in an opposite direction.

The audio press is in no small part reason for the ubiquitous diminutive high-WAF, no internal volume (nuclear blast worthy internal bracing), overpriced junk that passed for a Hi-End speakers these days.



 

What is this about?, posted on December 11, 2016 at 15:59:22
PAR
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I see nothing that has anything to do with JA or Stereophile. I don't know who wrote the text posted but English appears to be at best a second or even third language.

 

Who "They"? n/t, posted on December 11, 2016 at 16:01:44
PAR
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n/t

 

how about contributing something useful? , posted on December 11, 2016 at 18:31:05
If that is possible for you without rude smartassery.

 

Is that a quote?, posted on December 11, 2016 at 20:42:09
mkuller
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...if so, how about quotation marks and a link to the source.

 

How's this then?, posted on December 12, 2016 at 03:01:06
PAR
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I am not the only reader of this thread to have believed that your original posting referred to a review of the louspeaker that you pictured.

The Stereophile review was actually of the speaker that I picture here which is from Auditorium 23. Use of the model's name in the subject line or anywhere in the posting so as to relate it to an actual Stereophile review and follow up would have assisted.

May I also suggest that acronyms are best used when likely to be familiar to most readers. "LM" means Line Magnetic I discover. I think that less confusion would have resulted from use of the full name of this (generally) not particularly well known Chinese brand when referring, for example, to the compression unit for this loudspeaker's treble. Otherwise readers may go off (as I did) on a wild goose chase looking for details of a brand actually called LM.



 

RE: How's this then?, posted on December 12, 2016 at 05:44:57
Sorry thought most who read stereophile and reply to comments about steophile would understand that they just reviewed the LM loudspeaker. And I only see you have problems with that so I end with happy listening

 

no, posted on December 12, 2016 at 05:45:42
its not

 

Then what does your OP subject line refer to? (nt), posted on December 12, 2016 at 08:19:12
mkuller
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(nt)

 

RE: Then what does your OP subject line refer to? (nt), posted on December 12, 2016 at 08:30:58
JA follow up in Stereophile mag on the Line Magnetic review

 

Rant... Another post where stuff is posted with NO explanation, no discussion in op post. so folks whine., posted on December 12, 2016 at 13:30:47

NO.
So here was a mismash of part of something with no connection. Just floating pool of 'something' which would / could be interesting if any sort of explanation or discussion was given. What ? Too lazy?

I also was WTF is this post about. But way more who cares...
I just thought I would piss in the pool after reading back and forth whining.. Hell, I'll add more whining.

 

I wrongfully assumed people read the stereophile article about the Line magnetic horn, posted on December 12, 2016 at 18:18:07



Since this is a forum were one would discuss things that are mostly in recently printed media I thought John A and LM might have meaning. But I assumed wrong. I do wonder why others post reply's in this forum that is mostly about recent media without being up on any recent media....And mostly to try to be insulting....So I end this thread since you guys are honestly no fun at all, good luck and happy whatever you do.....

 

Short version ..., posted on December 12, 2016 at 22:02:32
bjh
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Go read a Shakespeare Insulter


 

Sorry Kloss but there is no review in Stereophile of the Line Magnetic Horn per se, posted on December 13, 2016 at 10:32:28
PAR
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This us why we did not know what your OP was about. The review ( follow up)is of the Auditorium 23 Hommage Cinema Loudspeaker.

The Line Magnetic units appear by name only in the second paragraph in a description of drive units employed. JA does not really review the drive units themselves beyond how they are employed in the design where he finds that " superb midrange horn is taken both too low and too high in frequency". At least for his tastes.

Referring to this as a Line Magnetic review is like referring to a Wilson Audio review as a SEAS or Scanspeak review (or whoever makes their drivers).

 

RE: Sorry Kloss but there is no review in Stereophile of the Line Magnetic Horn per se, posted on December 13, 2016 at 16:25:40
John Atkinson
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>The review (follow up) is of the Auditorium 23 Hommage Cinema Loudspeaker.

My review (follow up) is now posted on-line at the link below.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

 

Hmmmmmm.....I read JA's review, posted on December 13, 2016 at 20:04:27
Ross
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And it is largely positive. He states that the lack of HF extension was a problem for him, but he praised LF extension, midrange and low treble clarity, dynamics and scale. He noted a lack of distortion, though he did not measure distortion. I read the review as positive with caveats, and I felt I a gained an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the design. Isn't that the purpose of a review ?

 

RE: Sorry Kloss but there is no review in Stereophile of the Line Magnetic Horn per se, posted on December 14, 2016 at 20:27:26
bwaslo
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Excellent technical review, John. I'm not an audio magazine reader usually, but that was worth reading (the technical measurement work, that is).
_

Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html

Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/

SmallSyns:-->http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-s

 

RE: Sorry Kloss but there is no review in Stereophile of the Line Magnetic Horn per se, posted on December 15, 2016 at 04:41:30
John Atkinson
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>Excellent technical review, John. I'm not an audio magazine reader
>usually, but that was worth reading (the technical measurement work,
>that is).

Thank you.

>Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/

And I'll certainly check out this page.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

 

RE: Auditorium 23 Hommage Cinema Loudspeaker, posted on December 15, 2016 at 08:46:31
Paul Eizik
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A very fair and informative review follow up by John Atkinson, which is surprisingly enthusiastic coming from someone who has said "..I'm suspicious of horn loaded designs". Also surprising is the reference to J. Gordon Holt's "jump factor" in the context of a horn speaker. Recently an old anti-horn rant by JGH was re-printed in Stereophile where he expressed his opinion that horn listeners needed horns to compensate for their hearing loss. It's a good thing they don't install tachometers on graves.

Paul

 

RE: Hmmmmmm.....I read JA's review, posted on December 15, 2016 at 19:14:10
A.Wayne
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It's the worst measurements i have ever seen on any product, anywhere, if these are indeed good sounding speakers, then we can all throw away the science, all testing rigs and less stick to mind numbing absolute Sound reviews only.


SMH

 

RE: Sorry Kloss but there is no review in Stereophile of the Line Magnetic Horn per se, posted on December 15, 2016 at 19:20:25
A.Wayne
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I'm sure it had good Timbre John ...... :)

 

RE: Hmmmmmm.....I read JA's review, posted on December 16, 2016 at 02:37:26
thetubeguy1954
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Oh no another audiophile who believes measurements & specs tell the absolute truth about an audio component's sound. IMHO reviews done by subjectivist audiophiles such as Harry Pearson, Art Dudley and/or Anthony Cordesman are some of the most accurate descriptions of what an audio component will sound like when you go and listen to it. They are certainly more accurate than any review I've ever read from any of the measurements & specs reviewers such as Julian Hirsch, Tom Nosaine and/or Peter Aczel.

A.Wayne, I have a 40W/ch, 845-based, integrated, SET amp that I'll guarantee you two things about it:

1) It won't measure as well as 99.9% of solid-state gear.
2) It will sound better ---{by "better" I mean it sounds more like a live, unamplified sax, piano, drum, guitar, singer etc. would sound}--- than 99.9% of solid-state gear.

Don't forget the quote used in this same issue of Stereophile that JA's review came from: "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." With audio it would be better stated as "Not everything that matters can be measured, and not everything that can be measured matters." Truer words in audio have never been spoken.

Now go back and read Art Dudley's review of the exact same speakers JA just reviewed in Stereophile. After you've done that, try and listen to the speakers they both reviewed. If you ever do get a chance to hear those speakers, PLEASE come back and create a post telling us which review you believe more accurately described the sound of those speakers you heard, ok? Good luck and good listening to you...





Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: I wrongfully assumed people read the stereophile article about the Line magnetic horn, posted on December 16, 2016 at 02:44:28
thetubeguy1954
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C'mon John there are plenty of members, myself being one of them, who read your post(s) and enjoyed reading what you had/have to say. Don't let another member who even states "I just thought I would piss in the pool after reading back and forth whining.. ruin what you had to say. Ok my friend?


Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Sorry Kloss but there is no review in Stereophile of the Line Magnetic Horn per se, posted on December 16, 2016 at 02:51:41
thetubeguy1954
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Hi Par as you yourself stated the drivers and horns used in those Auditorium 23 Hommage Cinema Loudspeakers were made by Line Magnetic! Hence when JA started making negative comments about the tweeter being used in these wonderful horn speakers, he was essentially reviewing the Line Magnetic driver/horn combo. I felt Kloss was quite clear about that within his post or at least that was quite clear to me...




Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: How's this then?, posted on December 16, 2016 at 03:00:48
thetubeguy1954
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WOW! If you thought Kloss' picture of an Altec horn speaker with what I believe is the Fostex T900a "super-tweeter" added in, was the Auditorium 23 speaker reviewed in Stereophile. Then you and all the others who believed that should become A LOT more familiar with the history of some of best known (Altec-Lansing) horn speakers ever used in audio. This post, IMHO embarrassed your lack of audio knowledge, not Kloss. The worst part is I would have considered this knowledge to be something ANYONE who knew ANYTHING, at all, about horn speakers would have readily known...


Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

I'm Curious..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 03:03:13
thetubeguy1954
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How many people here thought Kloss' photo of the large, black, Altec speakers with a Fostex super-tweeter added on, was actually the Auditorium 23 speakers reviewed in Stereophile? If you believed that PLEASE post below saying so, OK?



Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Sorry Kloss but there is no review in Stereophile of the Line Magnetic Horn per se, posted on December 16, 2016 at 03:57:53
PAR
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Actually JA makes no comment that I could read as a criticism of the Line Magnetic tweeter. He measures it (just facts). He does criticise certain aspects of the loudspeaker designer's implementation of the Line Magnetic drivers but that is not criticism of the units in their own right.

Yes he does find the (measurable) lack of upper frequency energy not to his personal taste but modifies this comment by pointing out that Art Dudley did not find this a problem. IMO JA is entitled to report what he heard. In fact he concludes most positively " You should give this speaker a listen - just to experince what is posssible from a classic compression horn driver loaded with a horn".

You obviously ( from your isgnature) have a dog in the fight as a horn/SE triode afficionado So I understand yor sensitivity (sorry about the pun)to JA's comments. However they do seem to me to be rational and balanced. My view ? I would love to hear this speaker as the SE/horn aspect of this hobby offers so much. Sadly my physical surroundings make the installation of a horn system with adequate bass response largely impractical, hence my choice of a direct radiator design. Given other constraints however ...

 

RE: How's this then?, posted on December 16, 2016 at 04:15:03
PAR
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I think that if you read my posts you will see that I didn't confuse the Altec design with the auditorium speaker. That's why I posted a picture of the Auditorium speaker.

I do, however, express puzzlement of The OP's use of the picture of the Altec as it has no relevance to the subject under discussion and to that extent was misleading.

BTW, I have quite a reasonable knowledge of the history of horn louspeakers having built, when younger, Voice of the Theatre types ( albeit using Vitavox mid horns) and designs with Electrovoice drivers. I have also comparatively recently heard and been impressed by Westrex cinema designs from 1926 demonstrated by Silbatone as per my picture.

 

RE: I'm Curious..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 05:24:06
Dave_K
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I read Kloss' original post and had no idea what he was talking about.

The title refers to a Line Magnetic loudspeaker. Hmm... I wasn't aware that Line Magnetic made loudspeakers. And it turns out they don't.

And that picture of a vintage theater speaker. Hmm... I don't think Line Magnetic made that. And surely if Stereophile had reviewed that I would have remembered.

So I moved on.

Thanks to PAR for investigating and revealing that Kloss is referring to an Auditorium 23 loudspeaker that uses a LM driver. If not for PAR's posts, we would not have a clue what Kloss was talking about. Even after PAR's revelation, Kloss continues to refer to this a LM loudspeaker. He never mentions Auditorium 23 in his OP or any of his responses, doesn't provide a link or further explanation, and acts surprised that nobody could read his mind.

 

If you read Stereophile (and I normally don't, but some guy left one laying around at the gym)..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 06:40:12
Ivan303
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then you would have been SHOCKED to read that Stereophile actually reviewed a serious HORN SPEAKER!!!

And not just any horn speaker, but one with WE replica drivers (mid and tweet, IIRC).

As this happens far less frequently than a full eclipse of the sun here in foggy San Francisco, you would have certainly remembered it.

So when KLOSS mentioned a Horn Speaker review in the same post as Stereophile, I was able to extrapolate to Art's review of the horn speaker in question.

Having read that review, which was very positive, and JA's measurements, and being aware that many GREAT sounding speaker systems, including horns and electrostats, measure for crap, I still had no idea what he was ranting about.





 

RE: I'm Curious..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 08:08:57
thetubeguy1954
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Dave I believe Kloss, like myself, just assumed Audio Asylum members were more knowledgeable than many apparently are. I understood Kloss' post as written and knew exactly what he was talking about. In fact I was shocked to learn anyone here didn't recognize an Altec speaker when they saw one!


I'm listening to: Just A Little Lovin by Shelby Lynn







Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

+1...(nt), posted on December 16, 2016 at 08:12:45
mkuller
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(nt)

 

RE: I'm Curious..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 08:14:20
mkuller
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...picture looked like an Altec but no mention of that.

 

RE: If you read Stereophile (and I normally don't, but some guy left one laying around at the gym)..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 08:14:46
thetubeguy1954
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Hi Ivan,

Well at least you read both Art's and JA's reviews and already knew that they had reviewed a "heaven forbid" horn speaker! Now tell me you also knew that was an Altec speaker in John's OP and I'll know there's still some knowledgeable members here <<<< said tongue-in-cheek.


I'm listening to: Just A Little Lovin by Shelby Lynn




Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: I'm Curious..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 08:18:31
thetubeguy1954
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Hi mkuller,

Yes that's absolutely true. But, as I've said before. I believe John just assumed people here knew a little about audio history and would recognize, what I believe are, but might be wrong, one of the largest versions of Altec's VOTT speakers.


I'm listening to: Just A Little Lovin by Shelby Lynn




Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: I'm Curious..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 10:06:49
Dave_K
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Which Altec speaker? It looks similar to, or inspired by, a VOTT A4, but that's not quite it. Could it be a DIY effort, a semi-clone?

But supposing I had recognized it, I don't see how that would have helped make the connection to the A23 review. It wouldn't have been that hard for Kloss to simply name the speaker he's referring to, or provide a link or an explanation.

 

Line Magnetic does make speakers..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 10:46:18
kootenay
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The attached photo is from our local Line Magnetic dealer. He said that the speakers were constructed and spec'd by Line Magnetic based on his own taste parameters. The LM field coil speakers were driven with the top of the line Line Magnetic equipment as seen on the photo, which include the field coil power supply on the foreground between the two speakers.

How does it sound? IMHO, they sounded like music, very visceral and the presence of its presentation reminds me a lot like the Wilson Alexandria speakers of which he does carry as well. He also has the KEF Blade speakers for comparison as well.

Here's another LM field coil speakers that were reviewed in 2012 http://www.dagogo.com/line-magnetic-audio-lm-755i-field-coil-speaker-review

BTW, he's asking $65,000 for the pair.

If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)

 

RE: Hmmmmmm.....I read JA's review, posted on December 16, 2016 at 11:01:05
Dave_K
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They don't look so good in JA's standard suite of measurements, but the in-room frequency response measurement looks pretty respectable considering it's Art's room. Except in the top octave.

Their in-room response is compared with the Wilson Duette, and the Wilson looks worse everywhere except the top and bottom octaves. Art's Devore O/96 also looks worse except in the top octave.

I'm curious to know what it is about Art's room that gives every loudspeaker a humpback whale in-room response curve. And how does he manage to listen around it.

 

RE: If you read Stereophile (and I normally don't, but some guy left one laying around at the gym)..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 13:14:46
A.Wayne
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Obvious , based on such a clueless retort and no ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones ..

 

RE: Hmmmmmm.....I read JA's review, posted on December 16, 2016 at 13:19:06
A.Wayne
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Lol., respectable , steady as she goes dave .... :)

 

JA's review, this is a 50K speaker ...... , posted on December 16, 2016 at 13:56:34
A.Wayne
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John's editorial responsibility is to explain what he measures , to gloss over such egregious measurements without a proper explanation is beyond the pale IMO.

Subjectively liking the sonics of a product is one thing, there is a product for everyone's taste , maybe this product is an enigma, but by not calling it for what it is, after measuring, John is playing right into the hands of the misinformed regarding measurements meaning nothing.

For starters, it has a tweeter that doesn't tweet, A discontinuity between drivers (no coherency) and limited bass ( timbre).

I guess if it was for grammatical errors or wrong font size, SP would be blasted and John scalded :)

"Conclusions
I could live with the Hommage Cinema's low frequencies, even though they're not in the same class as those offered by speakers from Magico, Wilson, or YGA; but, unlike Art, I couldn't live with that lack of top-octave energy." - JA

Understatement of the year .... The imp/phase graph is one for the ages thou ....

 

RE:"ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones", posted on December 16, 2016 at 19:26:56
Ivan303
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Which one are those?

The 'bad ones'.

Are those the ones whose manufacturer has been reluctant to send examples to Stereophile for review because JA insists on 'measuring' them?






 

RE: I'm Curious..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 21:26:07
RGA
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I think the problem with the OP's post is simply that a lot of people here and Stereophile readers (and probably 4/5 of their staff are not very familiar with horn speakers of this ilk. And that is perfectly understandable since the vast majority of dealers (especially in the west) do not carry large horns where makers essentially take various drivers (from various companies like Line Magnetic) and then put it all together and sell it under their own label. It's kind of like all the brands that buy a lowther stick it in a cabinet and sell it under their own label.

Kloss probably needed to help most of the readers out here because the massive horns or even the relatively normal sized ones like the Auditorium are just are not mainstream enough in America.

Dave - they actually make a lot of different loudspeakers - Art Dudley and Jack Roberts reviewed the same Line Magnetic loudspeaker. And that one isn't even the good ones.

Pictured is an all line Magnetic system including their speakers. But they make several other speakers on top of this one.

 

RE: I'm Curious..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 21:27:59
RGA
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Here is another LM system

 

RE: I'm Curious..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 21:30:13
RGA
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And another. They are considerably bigger than some think I believe. They also OEM for several brands that probably would not like it spread around. Some big award winning amps that say they are made in the US and Italy - really they're not.

 

Already knew it wasn't - he's posted pics of his work before , posted on December 17, 2016 at 06:03:07
E-Stat
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Remember the one with the girl standing next to the woofer?

 

RE:"ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones", posted on December 17, 2016 at 08:20:31
A.Wayne
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Johnny is lazy , he refuses to drag them outside and measure at the requires 2-3 M to capture the panel ..

BTW any opinion on the LM graph posted ..? if you have any info /data on ESL's please to post it up for discussion ...


Regards

 

Maggies aren't ESLs...(nt), posted on December 17, 2016 at 10:18:43
mkuller
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(nt)

 

RE:"ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones", posted on December 17, 2016 at 11:44:00
SpotcheckBilly12345
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John lives in Brooklyn. I wouldn't be surprised if he's reluctant to "drag them outside" for fear of being mugged and having them wind up in one of those "clubs". ;-)

Cheers,
SB

 

Knew better (he's used that pic before) but still didn't understand where he was coming from..., posted on December 17, 2016 at 14:10:05
musetap
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  Since:
January 28, 2004
apart from deep left field, quite possibly in a country foreign from mine.

I read Critic's corner more than Stereophile (which I don't read) or, seldom.



"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure




 

RE: I'm Curious..., posted on December 17, 2016 at 16:38:12
91derlust
Audiophile

Posts: 442
Joined: December 25, 2014
Kloss can be cryptic, but I generally understood what he was on about. I didn't mistake the speakers either; although was not entirely sure why the reference to JA - I don't read Stereophile, excepting Art's column on occasion - but guessed correctly. I have appreciated Kloss' contributions to AA.

That said, I frequent the high efficiency forum, run GPA duplexes with SET amps... By contrast, many folks hanging out in Critics inhabit a more "broad appeal", marketing-driven(?) audio world. The devices under discussion are not exactly a part of their world and Kloss can be a challenge to follow at times: I can understand them thinking this Kloss fellow was off his meds.

Cheers,
91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE:"ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones", posted on December 17, 2016 at 18:29:10
bwaslo
Manufacturer

Posts: 215
Location: Portland, OR USA
Joined: September 10, 2006
see link to measurements of Quad ESL63
_

Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html

Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/

SmallSyns:-->http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-s

 

RE:"ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones", posted on December 17, 2016 at 18:31:29
bwaslo
Manufacturer

Posts: 215
Location: Portland, OR USA
Joined: September 10, 2006
And more ESL measurements here....
_

Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html

Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/

SmallSyns:-->http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-s

 

RE: Stereophile John A summation of LM loudspeaker, posted on December 17, 2016 at 19:13:05
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 6396
Joined: June 3, 2006

I like Mr Kloss' post. He has explained why the LM tweeter has limited range. Also feels Stereophile not too exposed to Horns. Likes Art's interest in Horns. According to Mr Kloss Horns are the greatest. Being a great DIY man to whom a lot of inmates write for advice, Mr Kloss pictures speakers as an extension of the drivers, hence calling by the name Line Magnetic. He does not care for the commercial names I guess.

Bill

 

RE:"ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones", posted on December 17, 2016 at 19:38:36
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 34803
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - San Francisco
Joined: February 26, 2001
"All I can say is that the reasons for this speaker's undoubtedly superb sound quality are not readily apparent from its measurements. I hope to explore this subject in more depth in a follow-up."

Surprise, surprise.



 

RE: How's this then?, posted on December 17, 2016 at 19:54:26
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 332
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
That speaker in the Silbatone exhibit is a second generation WE system called the Mirrophonic Model 2 from 1934. This one is based on the 594A driver rather than the earlier 555 driver which the A23 speaker uses in replica form.

Mirrophonic systems are the direct ancestor of Altec VOT systems. Horn or "lens" front-loaded, open baffle 18" field coil woofers, multicellular horns, with 300hz crossovers typical.

In general, the earlier WE 555 driver was used in wide range horns from 80-6kc without any crossover. Such horns include the 12A/13A, 16A, and the iconic 15A, none of which are tiny.

The A23 implementation is an attempt to fashion a domestically acceptable package based on the copy 555 driver and, as such, foregoes the wide response capability of the driver to meet packaging requirements.

YouTube vids exist of each of the above-mentioned wide-range horns demonstrated at the Munich show as an ongoing educational outreach program of Silbatone. We take an ancient WE system every year as a reality check on the latest high-end efforts.

Keith Aschenbrenner of Auditorium 23 is a perennial visitor to our WE demos. He is a very knowledgeable guy and well-known super maniac, so the reviewed speaker comes from somebody who knows and understands the historical territory quite well.

I do not get the impression that JA or Art are WE specialists, but they are doing a lot better than the TAS writer who reported on our CES exhibit as a "Westinghouse" horn speaker then went on to write the chapter in the TAS speaker book about Western Electric...or so I am told, having never actually seen the volume in question. I am afraid to look!

I can't speak to the relative quality of the Line Magnetic reproductions or the A23 implementations, but the WE original theater systems and especially that Mirrophonic M2 system are among the very best speakers I ever heard.

This is a totally different class of gear from high end consumer stuff. Engineered and built to an exceedingly high standard that stands today, despite the fact that these artifacts date from the stone age of electrical reproduction. The 555 driver is 90 year old technology!

Sadly, the Mirrophonic M2 is for a 3000 seat theater and will not fit through the door in most homes, including mine...but when properly set up, it is the best loudspeaker system I know.


------------------------------

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE:"ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones", posted on December 18, 2016 at 10:12:39
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2293
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011

Your Point ...?

Well apart from John's consistent inconsistencies , the 989 measurements are Superb compared to the LM Loudspeaker, especially measuring them at 50" .


LOL :)

 

RE:"ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones", posted on December 18, 2016 at 10:30:44
bwaslo
Manufacturer

Posts: 215
Location: Portland, OR USA
Joined: September 10, 2006
My Point:
"if you have any info /data on ESL's please to post it up for discussion ..."
Forgotten already?

_

Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html

Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/

SmallSyns:-->http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-s

 

Good point, posted on December 18, 2016 at 12:39:13
Ross
Audiophile

Posts: 1268
Joined: January 24, 2000
I have also noticed that speakers measured in JA's room tend to measure very closely to each other, with only minor variations and consistent HF rolloff.

Yet most of them sound quite different to the ear.

Interesting.

 

:-) /n, posted on December 18, 2016 at 14:21:42
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 34803
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - San Francisco
Joined: February 26, 2001
n



 

Right you are...., posted on December 18, 2016 at 16:00:22
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 34803
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - San Francisco
Joined: February 26, 2001
if Magnapan is the 'panel' speaker whose manufacturer wouldn't send product to Stereophile for review for fear of the possible measurements?

Didn't recall what speaker it was.

Anyone who wants to send me a free pair of Sound Labs big panels for free, I'll take them and give a crap how they measure. Same with Quad 57's for that matter.

And those 'Line Magnetic' horns which would sound pretty good with my 300B SET amps I'm betting.. ;-)




 

RE:"ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones", posted on December 19, 2016 at 05:28:08
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2293
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
Thanks for posting the links " for discussion " ..... :)


Any thoughts ...??

Regards

 

RE: Good point, but not really that close ... , posted on December 19, 2016 at 05:39:16
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2293
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
In Actuality the WA and LM are not really that close and will sound differently if you look at the braodband difference , john is using alot of smoothing . Looking at the impedance and sensitivity differences between them also tells me they would sound very different and require a much different approach when selecting amplification for best results, producing a different perspective all together ...

The LM will produce good jump ( better) on selective recordings .....


Regards

 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 19, 2016 at 05:50:32
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2293
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
Horns , large or small don't sell well here for some reason...

 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 19, 2016 at 06:06:08
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10053
Joined: August 8, 2001
They used to - Klipsch, Altec, JBL and the king daddy Western Electric.

Good horns are BIIIIG and Expensive. And like it or not the middle class is shrinking - more options for younger people to spend their money (home theater and video games and smartphones).

I wonder how often you have been out to Hong Kong or China or South Korea to hear some of the big horns?

 

RE: Stereophile John A summation of LM loudspeaker, posted on December 19, 2016 at 06:47:00
morricab
Reviewer

Posts: 8417
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
I have no doubt that this speaker sounds far more even and correct at a distance of 3-4 meters rather than 50 inches! The in-room response is pretty good up to 8khz. That said, I think they could have worked a bit more on proper physical alignment from a time perspective. I would like to see the step response at 3-4 meters.

Now I have heard the real we 597a and it doesn't have the extension of a modern tweeter, which was fine for the material of the time. The lack of air is probably a valid comment.

The most valid measurement for this speaker, IMO, is the in-room response for a more true indicator of what to expect at least for tonal evenness but definitely not the low distortion and dynamic aliveness such a speaker brings.

 

RE:"ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones", posted on December 19, 2016 at 06:51:16
Dave_K
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Posts: 996
Joined: September 30, 2014
Contributor
  Since:
December 0, 0000
I've auditioned the modern Quad ESLs a couple of times and to me they sound just like they measure, with a dished out midrange and mid-bass hump. They have great clarity, but they're not what I would call neutral.

 

RE: If you read Stereophile (and I normally don't, but some guy left one laying around at the gym)..., posted on December 19, 2016 at 07:05:07
Dave_K
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Posts: 996
Joined: September 30, 2014
Contributor
  Since:
December 0, 0000
Martin Logan seems to measure reasonably well:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/martinlogan-montis-loudspeaker-measurements

http://www.stereophile.com/content/martinlogan-prodigy-loudspeaker-measurements

There's an interference pattern in the high frequencies which results from measuring a large radiating surface in the near field, but you won't hear that.

 

RE: JA's review, this is a 50K speaker ...... , posted on December 19, 2016 at 07:41:23
Dave_K
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The near field pseudo-anechoic measurements are pretty awful. The woofer frequency responses in Figure 2 look pretty bad, and that tweeter really should have a HPF on it. But I think it's a futile exercise trying to coherently sum the near field responses of a couple of horns and a couple of dynamic drivers, so I don't think Figure 3 says much at all. Same for Figure 7, because the relative arrival times are very different in the near field vs. the far field.

With a loudspeaker like this, I'm more interested in how everything comes together (or not) in the far field. And from approximately 60 Hz to 8 KHz, the in-room measurements look better than many others in Art's room.

 

Best sounding Quad 57's were at RMAF in 2015...., posted on December 19, 2016 at 08:48:23
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 34803
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - San Francisco
Joined: February 26, 2001

Put together by Dave Slagle.

He removes the step-up transformer and builds in two PP el-34/6B4G power amps with x-over built into the small signal chain in the amp and two step-up/output transformers, one PP amp drives the treble panel while the other drives the two mid panels.

They finally had to ask me to leave as I spent most of the 3 day show in the room listening to what was about the best I have ever heard and electrostatic speaker sound.





 

RE: Best sounding Quad 57's were at RMAF in 2015...., posted on December 19, 2016 at 10:06:47
Dave_K
Audiophile

Posts: 996
Joined: September 30, 2014
Contributor
  Since:
December 0, 0000
I would have liked to hear that. I've only heard the 57s once, but liked them a lot.

I would also be curious to hear the modern Quad ESLs again, in a bigger room, to see if the bass balance improves with distance. I heard the 988s at a dealer in a long wall setup, listening almost near field i.e. 2-2.5m away, and the mid-bass was very prominent. Then the 2812s in a hotel room. I'm guessing the amount of dipole cancellation in the bass is very placement sensitive.

 

RE: Best sounding Quad 57's were at RMAF in 2015...., posted on December 19, 2016 at 10:29:07
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2293
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
Interesting setup , i would love to hear them ....

 

RE: Stereophile John A summation of LM loudspeaker, posted on December 19, 2016 at 10:31:05
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2293
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
Wait , what ! Tonal evenness from the in room response , surely u Jest .... :)

 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 19, 2016 at 10:37:48
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2293
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
Maybe Horns will come back with the Middle Class .... :)


IMO Horns stop being a big seller in the 70's , i owned my last one in 79 and have only seen them sporadically during the 80/90's and not until very recently have i heard one worthwhile and always at the other end of a good SET ...

No SET , no sound .... With SET , Serious ....

 

RE:"ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones", posted on December 19, 2016 at 10:55:46
bwaslo
Manufacturer

Posts: 215
Location: Portland, OR USA
Joined: September 10, 2006
Not really. I was just responding to the request.

Though I don't buy the "measurements are meaningless" stuff. Just that the measurements of most importance probably arent the ones people obsess over... like radiation pattern and room coupling are probably about 10x more important than response flatness, and impedance is mostly irrelevant with most amps and in-home sane listening levels.

No treble is still no treble, though, unless all hf hearing ability is shot. Balance is something ears can adapt to but a (basically) missing octave probably isn't.
_

Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html

Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/

SmallSyns:-->http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-s

 

He didn't show at this year's RMAF..., posted on December 19, 2016 at 12:01:23
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 34803
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - San Francisco
Joined: February 26, 2001
which was a mess due to ongoing remodel of the Marriott Hotel which has been the RMAF home these many years.

I am sure it would be WAY out of my price range but if you think about it, using the output transformer of a PP amp to drive the panel directly rather than stepping down in the amp then stepping up again in speaker makes all of the sense in the world. Bi-amping just adds icing to the cake.





 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 19, 2016 at 16:52:42
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10053
Joined: August 8, 2001
Ha - so in other words they won't be coming back.

One day business will learn that the more people who have no money the more people can't buy anything that they're selling. Henry Ford knew that his employees needed to be able to make enough money to pay rent, buy food, clothe their kids, and have enough money left over to buy his cars.

A Good SET and a good horn - I love. It would be nice if regular people could afford it.

 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 19, 2016 at 17:37:30
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2293
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
Regular people bought Klipsch or built their own and no , Horns will never be main stream...

 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 20, 2016 at 04:24:42
morricab
Reviewer

Posts: 8417
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
Why do you think that is the case? One theory would be that the horns are so revealing that the flaws of most other designs laid bare.

I heard a horn SS setup one year in Munich. It was still listenable but the potential of that speaker was clearly untapped as evidenced the next year when they had big SET monos on them.

Class A PP triode can also work quite well with horns, so not just SET but SET is preferred I would say.

They also make electrostats sound better but there are obviously more matching issues with that type of speaker.

 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 20, 2016 at 04:32:26
morricab
Reviewer

Posts: 8417
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
Horns were always for the masses...just not to own at home. All those WE speakers and amps were strictly professional use in PA and movie theaters. Only recently did the idea come to buy up old ones and put them at home. Same for the Altec VOTT systems. Only later did they make more domestic friendly systems and they were never full horn.

Klipsch for a long time made one of the few true horns for domestic use and it is rather large despite being a folded horn. It has flaws but most haven't heard it with a good SET.

 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 20, 2016 at 08:58:24
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2293
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
In the 70's i had a VOTT in my home :) , the first Klipsh i ever heard was their folded horn when i was 15ys old, playing thru Marantz toobs, even then it was rare to see them, my neighbor had that one , i may have heard that model only 5 times in over 40 yrs, so still not common to see.

Back in the early 70's it was not unusual to see horns in homes, but they were still not main stream , the masses bought regular type box speakers , most of us with horns moved to stats in the early 80's and later apogee's , Panel speakers were the rage during the 80's , Horns disappeared off the radar completely until recently.

Personally i could never get over their coloration and honk , even today. The best ones are better with timbre, but still some honk, I'm sure some philes find Honk to be dynamics , but it sounds unusual and unnatural to to me. In that case i prefer large scale ribbons and dynamic speakers, they have to be large and multi -driver to get the thd down on dynamics, philes buying 70,80,150,400K single point source drivers looks like madness to me , big speaker small sound compressed dynamics in the mid-high area. I can see someone living with one of those jumping to horns..

Horns really , really sound good to me on SET's and SET's only and only if the SET is driving everything, the magic with SET's is the bass/midbass area , they get this right compared to most amplfiers, this is where they have their jump, listen to a speaker system not setup for an SET amp and it's sounds wrong and bi-amping is the worst , as it kills the SET advantage. SET coupled to class-D = most wrong ..

On acoustic instruments , Horns can be the best, they capture the percussive energy in the mids/high better than other speaker types, if what you listen to, is mostly acoustic instruments and small ensembles , et al, then very hard to beat a top horn SET combination..

A good horn and a 5 watt SET can do the deal.

Recently a dealer who sells horn speakers, also mentioned to me they are a hard sell here in the states. The Surge in audio during the 70/80's went away when non audiophiles stop buying and went into HT. Asia is much more into 2 ch and has been for at least 3-4 decades now.

Sales there is a must ...




Regards..

 

RE:"ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones", posted on December 20, 2016 at 09:10:14
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2293
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
"No treble is still no treble, though, unless all hf hearing ability is shot. Balance is something ears can adapt to but a (basically) missing octave probably isn't." - bwaslo


Less also not forget no "Bass" .... :)


PS: I'm sure John will not be back on this one ... :)


Regards

 

I stand corrected, posted on December 20, 2016 at 10:36:17
Dave_K
Audiophile

Posts: 996
Joined: September 30, 2014
Contributor
  Since:
December 0, 0000
I had checked the products link on the LM importer's home page and didn't see any loudspeakers, just drivers. So I didn't realize they made loudspeaker systems.

 

Stereophile, posted on December 20, 2016 at 11:01:28
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 23796
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
April 5, 2002
reviewed both the 1.6 and 3.6 back in the day. Even JA acknowledges that his testing methodology fails with large dipolars:

"As I have written before in these pages, measuring physically large speakers with in-room quasi-anechoic techniques is in some ways a fruitless task. The usual assumption, that the measuring microphone is very much farther away than the largest dimension of the speaker being measured, is clearly wrong."

Clearly wrong.

And yet, he seemed to really like the latest Martin-Logan hybrids in the latest issue. :)

 

Wait..., posted on December 20, 2016 at 12:31:02
kootenay
Audiophile

Posts: 5824
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: October 16, 2007
Contributor
  Since:
April 6, 2008
Until you listen to it as the horns don't honk at all. I know what the use of having them eh!. Perhaps this has do with the field coil driver's design.

The overall sonic character is different than say Klipsch and JBL horn loaded speakers that I've listened to in the past.


If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)

 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 20, 2016 at 12:56:06
Ross
Audiophile

Posts: 1268
Joined: January 24, 2000
You can trace the decline of domestic horn sales in the US and Europe against the increase in domestic sales of high power SS amps over the same time.

SS was better than tubes. More power, less heat, less space. With more power available, all of a sudden listeners did not need 2 big horn boxes to achieve high SPL and deep bass in home.

Smaller always is better. Average size of a suburban home from the 50's to the early 80's was less than 2000 sqft.

Asia never abandoned tubes and began to embrace Altec, JBL and WE horns and tube amps in the early mid 70's. Search online for pictures of Asian audiophiles using theater horns in their systems. Many are installed into spaces barely larger than a US master bedroom. Size doesn't matter, only the sound. We have other priorities in the west....

 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 21, 2016 at 05:48:36
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10053
Joined: August 8, 2001
It doesn't help that emasculated reviewers who are not allowed to have a speaker with anything larger than a 4 inch woofer in 18X40 living room because the wife will beat them continually tout LS-3/5a and other completely dynamically inept speakers as things we should spend $2,000 on.

But hey if you buy two sets and an equally wimpy center channel - it can all be saved with a big fat sub the wife can use as a coffee table. Let's face it - horn speakers are typically hideous to look at. Big speakers are well big and by extension ugly. There's a reason those stupid little Bose cubes sell so well. And hey you can always try to convince yourself it's good. It's just funny to see rooms here in Hong Kong with ridiculously massive Tannoys or JBLS while it is also ridiculous to see the average US home with a Totem Model One as the main speaker. It's just so weird.

But here is something I notice living in HK...and it is only anecdotal to people I have personally met - but my co-teacher and I were talking about stereos (reviewing and such) and I asked her if she had a system - Sure - a B&W loudspeakers, A Naim amplifier etc. Another woman has Sennheiser HD 600s, and an OPPO headphone amp. I mean this is not uncommon - women are into music here and they value it. Classical and jazz aren't relegated to one shelf in a CD selling shops. I have gone to the dealer where the wife is taking an active role in the listening and buying decisions. And they were listening to Einstein and Audio Note back to back. I shared the couch and she was mentioning very relevant aspects to the sound.

I almost never saw that in the west.

I think it's also too hard a sell for dealers - it's easier to sell mainstream heavily advertised stuff and simple concepts. It obviously works in all sorts of parameters in society - sell them easy to grasp things: More watts is better (like megapixels), more features is better (new technology is always best), and lots of baffle-gab on the technological advancements that a Wave Radio is better than a million dollar theater.

I had to check I wasn't in the twilight zone - the three of us agree that A good SET on a Good Horn is awesome? Wow.

Merry Christmas!

 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 21, 2016 at 11:29:41
morricab
Reviewer

Posts: 8417
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
Time to buck up then and get some horns to go with your LM 219...something like a LM WE replica system perhaps??

 

I was so looking forward to, posted on December 21, 2016 at 11:54:34
BRab
Audiophile

Posts: 773
Joined: January 28, 2002
moving on from psychoacoustics. Be careful what you wish for.

 

:-) -nt, posted on December 21, 2016 at 15:17:47
Jim Treanor
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Posts: 1764
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: June 1, 2003
Contributor
  Since:
April 28, 2015
.


Jim
http://jimtranr.com

 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 21, 2016 at 20:12:19
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10053
Joined: August 8, 2001
Nope I live in Hong Kong - the apartment won't fit a horn. I just bought new AN E/Spx HE Alnico Hemp speakers for myself for Christmas. You can see them in the thread posted on Steve Hoffman's forum as he owns the exact same pair. This is the most money I have ever spent on an audio component - I had to sell my AN J/Spe but fortunately I paid $2500 for them in 2004 and sold them for $2900 in 2016. And you wonder why I am a fan.

Consider that back then for the same $2500 I could have purchased the Reference 3a MM De Capo - I saw a set in Hong Kong selling for $650 in perfect shape.


But when I eventually move to a larger space - Horns will be on the list - that may be ten years so a lot can happen from now until then.

It's off to Melbourne for Christmas and New Years - let bygones be bygones and all that.

My post is on page 4

 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 21, 2016 at 20:33:38
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2293
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
You bought another AN speaker , I'm shocked , maybe in 10 yrs AN will have Horns ... :)

 

RE: I'm Curious... The West and Horns ... , posted on December 21, 2016 at 23:14:19
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10053
Joined: August 8, 2001
Well I had the choice of buying what I like or buying what other people like. I would not think that that would shock anyone.

 

If I were to purchase a horn..., posted on December 28, 2016 at 19:44:04
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 23796
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
April 5, 2002
It would be one that doesn't honk, always sound like "Winchester Cathedral" or sound like a collection of dissimilar parts. Like a Danley SH60 where all frequencies radiate from the same mouth with consistent directivity.

 

RE: If I were to purchase a horn..., posted on December 29, 2016 at 09:05:59
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2293
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
Perfect for when on the golf course .... :)

 

The west, posted on January 3, 2017 at 01:32:21
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10053
Joined: August 8, 2001
doesn't get the top LM stuff.

 

RE: Stereophile John A summation of LM loudspeaker, posted on January 3, 2017 at 08:14:34
Inmate51
Audiophile

Posts: 8614
Joined: July 6, 2005
My old (and he IS getting old) loudspeaker mentor John Meyer (meyersound.com) is a horn expert, but even he uses bass reflex for the low end, partly because large horns are impractical even for many touring systems.

While Kloss is a vintage horn addict, and that's all fine, he can get better bass in a smaller package with bass reflex.

Large bass horns for movie theaters is one thing, but large bass horns in a home living room... not so much.

:)

 

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