Old Believers.

RE: Old , posted on May 2, 2012 at 07:09:06
Kloss Manufacturer Posts: 820 Location: WI Joined: January 25, 2012	Why get rid of anything where old enough to start hoarding just go with it...Lps, Cds, DVDs, DVDA, SACD, tapes, CED, Laser disc, VHS, Beta, Down loads. I say pile away.

RE: Old Believers., posted on May 2, 2012 at 08:36:36
DrChaos Audiophile Posts: 1028 Location: San Diego Joined: July 13, 2009	isn't vinyl new tech? who's shilling for shellac?

I take it that "Old Believers" is the whiskey you've been drinkling this fine morning?, posted on May 2, 2012 at 08:49:38
Enophile Audiophile Posts: 24344 Location: Northern Californistan Joined: October 15, 2005 Contributor Since: August 5, 2012	;D Barkeep! A double round of Old Believers for my good friend Sam, here!

"Old Believers" were characters in Mussorgsky's opera "Khovanshchina.", posted on May 2, 2012 at 09:48:26

John Marks
Industry Professional

Posts: 3630
Joined: April 23, 2000

"Old Believers" (Starovery) were, in Russian history, a group opposed to Peter the Great's Westernizing reforms, including but not limited to how many fingers to use while making the Sign of the Cross (two for OBs, three for Westernizers, if you were curious) and large beards on priests.

The Old Believers were suppressed mercilessly, often by locking them in their churches and burning the churches to the ground. Which they would, as most of them were wooden.

At some point (I am not an expert on this, just an educated layperson) Peter the Great relented to the point where he allowed priests who went along with the rest of the reforms to pay a tax for the privilege of having a large beard. The priests were given a token or medallion to show they had paid the tax, and some still exist today.

These things I learned from Boris Goldovsky, who was a huge influence on me.

JM

Well, then, Sam's "Burn them at the stake" and "vaporize them...in vinyl" comments are historically imprecise., posted on May 2, 2012 at 09:55:52
Enophile Audiophile Posts: 24344 Location: Northern Californistan Joined: October 15, 2005 Contributor Since: August 5, 2012	:D

burn sam in a vat of, posted on May 2, 2012 at 18:43:18
hifitommy Audiophile Posts: 12280 Location: shaky sylmar calif, orig from buffalo ny Joined: June 9, 2000	ARMOR-ALL! ...regards...tr

I’ll leave the analog/digital debate for others. That said..., posted on May 3, 2012 at 08:56:14

regmac
Audiophile

Posts: 4343
Joined: April 7, 2002

initially things looked promising for vinyl and digital. Telarc's first 4-5 digital recordings (released on vinyl) were unqualified successes according to almost everyone—even audiophiles. Admittedly, later digital-to-vinyl efforts from Telarc were not so successful. Yet Telarc’s early releases would seem to put the lie to the vinyl purists insistence that it’s not enough to listen to vinyl, but that the recording itself must be "pure analog."

I’ve compared Telarc’s rendering of Stravinsky’s Firebird Suite to Sheffield Labs' version on numerous occasions and always prefer the former.

Firebird..., posted on May 3, 2012 at 11:11:49

mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 28824
Location: SF Bay Area
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Contributor
Since: December 28, 2003

...but aren't they also two different conductors and orchestras?

Comparing apples and oranges.

I, too, prefer the ASO recording.

I recall some years ago debating analog vs digital on a different newsgroup and talking about the limitations of early digital recordings.

My newsgroup nemesis would always bring up Dire Straits, "Love over Gold" and excellent early CD.

He would claim it wasn't the fault of the digital recordings.

*Boiled in MD 20-20 while listening to Loretta Linn. , posted on May 3, 2012 at 12:05:28**
mr grits	.

RE: I’ll leave the analog/digital debate for others. That said..., posted on May 3, 2012 at 14:10:12

Tony Lauck
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Location: Vermont
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"Telarc's first 4-5 digital recordings (released on vinyl) were unqualified successes according to almost everyone—even audiophiles."

Not all the audiophiles.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue4/johnsen.htm

I prefer the former, too :), posted on May 3, 2012 at 14:55:51

E-Stat
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Since: April 5, 2002

But then, I am biased as I participated in a very minor way to that recording. It was just enjoyable to be there during the two days of taping. The air conditioning was off the entire time and Shaw could be seen with a towel around his neck. The usual acoustic shell panels were rolled back and out of the way.

I remember Shaw giving the clarinet player fits between takes of the solo in the Borodin piece. He eventually delivered a wonderful performance.

Is the TT named Loretta?..., posted on May 3, 2012 at 16:22:06
musetap Audiophile Posts: 11218 Location: San Francisco Joined: July 8, 2003 Contributor Since: January 28, 2004	If so, the vintage vinyl circle-thing could remain unbroken. "Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure

Vaporizing vixens vituperatively verily vengfully violate volatile vintage vinyl vat vapors , posted on May 4, 2012 at 20:31:19
Elizabeth Audiophile Posts: 10069 Location: Great Lakes Region Joined: December 20, 2000	.

RE: I’ll leave the analog/digital debate for others. That said..., posted on May 4, 2012 at 20:31:58
josh358 Industry Professional Posts: 8480 Joined: February 9, 2010 Contributor Since: February 3, 2012	:-) They never sounded right to me, and at some point, I learned why -- the converters used in the Soundstream recorder had missing codes. Ouch.

Vindication via voluptuous vocabulary vacates vexing volition vacuum , posted on May 4, 2012 at 22:06:56
Elizabeth Audiophile Posts: 10069 Location: Great Lakes Region Joined: December 20, 2000	.

RE: Old Believers., posted on May 5, 2012 at 13:46:59
tmsorosk Audiophile Posts: 1412 Location: Sprucegrove Ab. Joined: October 31, 2010	Seems a bit harsh.

RE: Old Believers., posted on May 5, 2012 at 19:07:16
BubbaMike Audiophile Posts: 316 Location: Left Coast of the USA Joined: January 4, 2002	Forget the Old Believers and what about the Doukhobors? When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it. ~ Bernard Bailey

RE: Firebird..., posted on May 6, 2012 at 13:06:53

regmac
Audiophile

Posts: 4343
Joined: April 7, 2002

“...but aren't they also two different conductors and orchestras? Comparing apples and oranges.”

Obviously. But that’s usually the case when arriving at a *personal* preference. I prefer Randy Dunn’s big, tannic (when young) Howell Mountain Cabernet Sauvignon to Silver Oak’s softer style. Different winemakers and vineyards resulting in *my* preference for Dunn’s approach. It’s called discrimination and people do it all the time when making personal choices.

My point about the early Telarc recordings is that to my ears they captured the essence of the hall and revealed a three dimensional aspect that was missing from most labels. I suspect this had much to do with recording technique and little to do with conductor, interpretation or orchestra. Again, Telarc's early recordings conveyed a convincing realism that was not evident on other labels. So it’s not as though the digital format is lacking in that respect.

Perhaps TAS said it best: “Stravinsky, Firebird. Atlanta, Shaw. Telarc (CD and SACD) A durably exciting Firebird, captured in vivid, dynamic stereo. Way back in the late 1970’s, Telarc was getting digital right before everyone else started getting it wrong.”

http://www.avguide.com/article/best-audiophile-label-recordings-classical-tas-197?page=3

I’ve always been curious as to why *classical* digital recordings failed to improve given Telarc’s promising start some 30-35 years ago. I think I understand why pop and other genres have failed: loudness wars, mixing consoles, lack of dynamic range, etc. But why do you suppose “everyone else started getting it wrong” after Telarc’s auspicious start? Or do you think TAS’s assessment is too severe and some digital recordings have gotten it right during the intervening years?

I'd be curious to read your thoughts and the thoughts of others regarding this issue.

RE: Firebird..., posted on May 7, 2012 at 09:07:06

Botanico92007
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: San Diego
Joined: March 15, 2006

Well, I've puzzled over this too. When Telarc did its first digital recordings, producer Robert Woods and sound engineer Jack Renner got most things right for classical recording. They copied the Mercury technique of minimalist 3-mike recording with wide open dynamics, no spot miking, and natural reverberation. They also chose the Soundstream digital recording process which was superior to the Sony system, which was adopted by most others. They also had a good understanding of the art of getting what they wanted to capture. In a sense it was the "perfect storm" with a positive outcome.

Telarc's first digital recording, The Cleveland Symphonic Winds, created a sensation. Yet I remember that Harry Pearson in TAS had reservations which he had difficulty articulating. Thus began the continuing discussion about the differences between digital and analog sound.

More than 30 years on engineers are still struggling to get it right. We now have much improved digital recording and playback with SACD and hi-rez downloading trying to fill the gap. At the same time there has been a mainstream trend to low-rez.

There are some good digital recordings out there, but certainly not in the numbers that I would have expected. I am frequently disappointed with new recordings. And when I listen to an old 2-track tape or one of the new Tape Project tapes, I shake my head and ask myself what happened.

Perfect storms don't come along very often.

RE: Firebird..., posted on May 7, 2012 at 09:07:23

Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 10393
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
Since: February 24, 2009

"I've always been curious as to why *classical* digital recordings failed to improve given Telarc's promising start some 30-35 years ago."

44.1 CD sampling rate is too low, and all the early 44/16 recorders did not use correct dither. Stockham used 50 kHz and correct (TPDF) dither which was a trade secret for some years. In addition I have heard it said that Soundstream converters were hand tweaked before each use.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: Firebird..., posted on May 7, 2012 at 13:35:19
josh358 Industry Professional Posts: 8480 Joined: February 9, 2010 Contributor Since: February 3, 2012	As you say, the early Sony digital recorders were dreadful. So was the Soundstream, just less so. But the main difference here I think is the relatively purist technique. Commercial recordings are destroyed with multimiking, close miking, EQ, and compression. This is not, I think, a shortcoming of the recording engineers so much as something imposed from above.

I don't think it's flammable.(nt), posted on May 11, 2012 at 09:19:19
samtellig Reviewer Posts: 976 Joined: May 22, 2000	(nt)

Vivacious, albeit vexious vixen voices vow to vacate vinylphobe.(nt), posted on May 11, 2012 at 09:23:15
samtellig Reviewer Posts: 976 Joined: May 22, 2000	(nt)

dam, posted on May 11, 2012 at 11:27:42
hifitommy Audiophile Posts: 12280 Location: shaky sylmar calif, orig from buffalo ny Joined: June 9, 2000	SAM. i thought it was. ...regards...tr

Verily! , posted on May 11, 2012 at 15:39:35
Elizabeth Audiophile Posts: 10069 Location: Great Lakes Region Joined: December 20, 2000	Vengful vexed vixen vinyl vendetta views vacated, verily!

Aren't you? .(nt), posted on May 12, 2012 at 14:47:11
Kal Rubinson Reviewer Posts: 9377 Joined: June 5, 2002

And lets not forget, posted on May 14, 2012 at 21:21:41
vinyl survivor Audiophile Posts: 825 Location: Southeastern US Joined: November 28, 2007	all the fake reverb added to many recordings!

Critic's Corner

Old Believers.

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