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New Rules: Reviewer reference recordings.

70.95.249.62
Posted on October 5, 2009 at 08:23:06
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 New Rules:

I here by put forth a motion to ban any use of the following recordings in reviews by Stereophile writers:

Any Chesky recording...especially Area 31 (lets move on)

Any Anne-Sophie Mutter recording (done to death)

The Attention Screen Merkin Hall (enough already!)

Any Jennifer Warnes (especially Famous Blue Raincoat)

This is not a comment of the quality of the music itself, that to the personal taste of the reviewer...I'm just TIRED of hearing about them.

PS. Kudos to Wes Phillips for mentioning Olu Dara. Great artist.

PS. Mikey has Mike Bloomfield in heavy rotation. Take that Dudley man.
RE: New Rules: Reviewer reference recordings., posted on October 15, 2009 at 11:07:34
tfrazeur
Audiophile

Posts: 15
Location: Indianapolis
Joined: April 11, 2005
 Wow, I can't believe I just lost about 15-20 minutes of my life reading through this thread. I think a lot of the problem is we take our hi-fi's and music way too seriously, damn, it is supposed to be fun! Tim

Yes, all tiresome, annoying things–like your screen name., posted on October 7, 2009 at 07:30:51
shamburg
Audiophile

Posts: 266
Joined: June 26, 2002
 nt

Actually, your lack of NT in the subject line bothers me more--NT, posted on October 7, 2009 at 15:51:38
lancelot
Audiophile

Posts: 1232
Joined: March 23, 2001
 NT

RE: Yes, all tiresome, annoying things–like your screen name., posted on October 7, 2009 at 12:48:40
lord addleford
Audiophile

Posts: 336
Location: new england
Joined: July 5, 2005
Contributor
  Since: April 11, 2006
 wtf. sh made a valid point re the demo music. below, sircom basically restated sh's point with a slightly different spin/perspective and jim austin responded, civilly, as always to the substance of as's question. p
ok- sh aint your cuupa. get over it. you could always take the ever so radical approach and ignore him. he aint gonna change. he is far from the malevolent poster you make him out to be.

RE: Yes, all tiresome, annoying things–like your screen name., posted on October 8, 2009 at 13:13:09
Bruce from DC
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 actually, with the sub-thread that Sircom started, the whole thing turned out to be quite valuable and informative.

Ya' just never know how these things are going to turn out!


Down with this sort of thing!, posted on October 7, 2009 at 05:56:57
Alan Sircom
Reviewer

Posts: 57
Location: London
Joined: May 27, 2009
 I often hear industry types saying there are no new audiophiles. Well, perhaps if we played music made after those putative new audiophiles were born, we might just entice a new generation of music lovers into the audiophile clubhouse. Perhaps, if we allowed these young people (and by 'young people', I'm pretty much lumping together everyone under retirement age) to play the music they want to hear in the ways they want to hear it, we wouldn't have an audio industry hoping for mild winters, because a cold snap might take out 5% of the client-base.

I spent the weekend walking the rooms of the RMAF. Although there were good sounds from some rooms, had I been there as a 'civilian' based purely on the music, I would have walked away from the show saying "most of this audiophile stuff is just too old for me". And I'm in my mid-40s.

Some are already wise to this. If you speak to the people making things like Sonos, their biggest rivals are Logitech and Apple TV, not audiophile companies (I think in the case of some audiophile companies, their biggest rivals are Arthrotec and Lipitor). And if you get a demonstration of a Sonos or Logitech box, they have a selection of everything on tap; they will play Patricia Barber and they will play the Fleet Foxes, depending on what you ask for.

Realistically, I should be walking into some audio demos where I find the music challenging because I am too old for it. I covered every room in the RMAF and the only heard music made by people younger than me in less than 10 rooms. I'm sure (well, I hope) there was more, but not much more. Kudos then to the guy demonstrating the new PMC Fact 8 loudspeakers with tracks from The Black Keys 'Attack and Release' album.

Last point. It's 19 years since SRV died in a helicopter crash. The guy was a fantastic guitarist, but there have been other fantastic guitarists since. Next year, we should all gather round and ceremonially throw a Stratocaster through a woodchipper and speak no more of Tin Pan F&%in' Alley.

Whose with me?

Yours, one of the assholes propping up the bar in Denver and trying to stop this industry dying of progeria,


-
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus magazine, from cold, windy and wet Englandshire
RE: Down with this sort of thing!, posted on October 7, 2009 at 13:03:43
John Atkinson
Reviewer

Posts: 1900
Location: New York
Joined: November 24, 2003
 >perhaps if we played music made after those putative new audiophiles were born, we
>might just entice a new generation of music lovers into the audiophile clubhouse.

A good point, Alan,But if you caught one of my seminars on "The Loudness Wars" at
RMAF, you would have heard how so much modern music is recorded so badly as not
to benefit from playback on a high-end audio system. The louder you play a good
recording, the more there is to hear. But with so many modern recordings, there is
nothing more to be heard by increasing the volume.

There are exceptions - Lateralus by Tool, from a few years back, was a true high-end
recording. But so much new stuff is sonically compromised, even when the music
soars.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
ORLY?, posted on October 20, 2009 at 20:18:15
Steven R. Rochlin
Reviewer

Posts: 1165
Joined: April 5, 2000
 At the RMAF i gave up on commercially available music other than what Peter McGrath had and my own recording. The Wilson room Peter was in had the best sounding room at the show, with many other systems falling a bit short to a few sounding utterly lackluster but hey that's show conditions.

Peter is always great and it was fun to hear the usual production piano recording he did that is released to the public versus a much more realistic sounding version he had using Grado custom mics. Sadly, the public will never hear the 'real' recording and only be 'blessed' with that typical piano sound that is expected.

Oh well.

Young kids are great! Bring on the commercial music of your fave band to shows. Remember when i wore tied dye shirts and had a nose ring, gauge ear rings... Yeah, young kids love music and buy stuff too :) Of course they might also listen to music others do not. To each their own. One guy i know loves Swedish melodic death metal. Sounds like noise to me, though he loves it. Blue Raincoat sounds like death warmed over yet again one last time to me (like Cher's 'final/farewell' tour that lasted forever).

BTW: if i EVER have to be subjected to Blue Raincoat or some other soulless rubbish again i swear it'll be POSTAL time.

Enjoy(ing) **the Music** (The Flower Kings "The Truth Will Set You Free". Not a great recording, yet excellent music. Will play Epica "Cry For The Moon" next. John, Epica may make you run for cover above 100dB :) ),

Steven R. Rochlin

NOTE: My comments do not reflect those of other reviewers on Enjoy the Music.com. My personal musical preferences NEVER limit other reviewers on the site. To each their own and it's all good as we each have different preferences, am simply stating my own. If you love Blue Raincoat good for you and that's cool by me, it is simply something i'd rather stick sharp objects into my ear drums instead. Now back to enjoying the music :)

Darn, took so long to post this am now playing Godsmack "Whatever" They really rocked during CES about 8 years ago at the Hard Rock.

"so much modern music is recorded so badly as not to benefit from playback on a high-end audio system. ", posted on October 8, 2009 at 07:34:55
Wendell Narrod
Audiophile

Posts: 7966
Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: June 2, 2000
 John, may we infer from your statement that folks who listen to a majority of modern music (rock, hip-hip, or ?) shouldn't bother with a quality system?


-Wendell
Stereophile and the "The Loudness Wars", posted on October 7, 2009 at 17:25:45
Metralla
Audiophile

Posts: 6413
Location: San Jose, California
Joined: January 30, 2001
 I appreciated reading the report of your seminar, and although you are probably preaching to the choir in many cases, there is nothing wrong with reinforcing the point. This has been a topic of much discussion on a number of fora, and it does not appear that a lot of progress has been made. In my own case, I've almost given up buying new CDs and purchase mainly early issues on the used market.

But isn't there something you can do in the public arena, outside of a seminar at a friendly Audio Fest?

Let's say the preeminent hifi magazine in the US presented a petition, signed by the 50 top hifi companies in the country, to the major labels to cut back on the compression and limiting?

How about you collate a list from your reviewing staff of the 100 top CDs that have a decent dynamic range? How about listing 20 dodos and shaming the record companies.

When a remaster comes out, and is reviewed by Stereophile, please compare the dynamic range with the original, and if it's been futzed with significantly, then say so. It appears to me that all remasters get the good housekeeping seal of approval from Stereophile, whether they advance the art or not, particularly in this area. I don't recall a negative review.

Say you gave some space in your magazine to referring to the Web site http://www.dynamicrange.de and showed your support of their efforts.



Regards,
Geoff
RE: Stereophile and the "The Loudness Wars", posted on October 8, 2009 at 13:11:20
Bruce from DC
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 Great sentiments, Geoff, with which I concur completely.

However, everyone in the production chain must also account for the limitations of playback systems and playback environments. For example, unless your car is very quiet, playing back wide dynamic classical music can be a challenge. Likewise, the limitations of the I-pod/MP3 playback chain may also drive artists/producers to limit dynamic range.

Sure, one solution is to produce an "audiophile" and an "MP3" version of the same recording, but there's a cost to that.

Even for us gray-hairs, there is some disappointment in the recording decisions that were made during the production of the classics of our youth -- for example, the absolutely muddy mix of "Born to Run" or the deliberate 60-hz high pass of all of the Motown recordings (one of the pleasures of the recent "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" recording is hearing the Funk Brothers play all of that music on an unrestricted recording; after all, if Motown is about anything, it's about bass!).

But the common denominator to all of this is that music -- any kind of music -- sounds more alive on a good reproducing system. The younger folks are at least as capable of getting that as we over-the-hill types . . . they just need to hear their music being played, not "ours."
RE: Stereophile and the "The Loudness Wars", posted on October 7, 2009 at 17:50:13
John Atkinson
Reviewer

Posts: 1900
Location: New York
Joined: November 24, 2003
 >But isn't there something you can do in the public arena, outside of a seminar at a
>friendly Audio Fest?

You make good points. The problem is that the few remaining staff at major record
labels know nothing about music or sound quality. But there is hope at indie labels
and particularly when it comes to vinyl releases.

>Say you gave some space in your magazine to referring to the Web site
>http://www.dynamicrange.de and showed your support of their efforts.

I do so in the "As We See It" essay in the November issue of Stereophile, which
should be dropping in your mailbox within the next few days.


John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
RE: Down with this sort of thing!, posted on October 7, 2009 at 15:32:48
Alan Sircom
Reviewer

Posts: 57
Location: London
Joined: May 27, 2009
 I agree; I'm all too aware of the Loudness Wars shockwave. And I'm also aware of the quality of Tool albums (it's a pity 10,000 isn't HDCD, but it's still pretty good).

Have you ever heard Tool at an audio show? Or Mastodon, Biffy Clyro, The Raconteurs or any one of the bands that don't play by the loudness rules? How many of those demonstrating even have these albums to hand?

We've always cherry-picked our way through modern music to find the demo albums among the badly-recorded, especially in contemporary music. It's why Famous Blue Raincoat made it to the demo room and Licensed to Ill (from the same year) didn't. Unfortunately, most of us stopped cherry-picking some years ago.

My big problem is that the contemporary music we demonstrate and discuss in reviews is often far from contemporary. The home theater people know this; they still have the 'classics' on hand, but will find a few new demo blu-ray discs every season.


-
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus magazine, from cold, windy and wet Englandshire
RE: Down with this sort of thing!, posted on October 7, 2009 at 15:19:01
Peter Breuninger
Reviewer

Posts: 292
Joined: August 28, 2002
 John, this is precisely the point. Today's popular music is compressed to such an excessive level that the better the system-the worse it sounds. I've often thought that with the newsstand space we command that every issue's cover have a big skull and crossbones against compression. It sure would attract attention. Since I've gone computer front end I've been ripping and comparing various recordings with side by side track comparisons (for the past three years). Example; the RVG Jazz reissues vs. the original CDs. Say, Eric Dolphy, Out to Lunch. I play back to back tracks or snippets and the new reissues are 30% or more louder plus the images are flattened and the air is diminished. It's amazing how even our purist music can no longer escape the A&R departments loudness wars. It's a shame. How can we get young people to hear what the highend industry delivers if their recordings sound worse on our uber systems. This is the real problem. I don't believe for a minute that young listeners are too distracted by other media and life endeavors to not give high end a chance. It's like we know how bad the (today's) music sounds and we stick our heads in the sand and hope no one notices it. Shame on us.

Peter Breuninger
I want to keep this short and sweet, so where do I begin?, posted on October 7, 2009 at 10:43:25
Bruce Kendall
Dealer

Posts: 26637
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Contributor
  Since: February 4, 2005
 I'll start with the important stuff. I'm glad to hear that you and some of your audio buddies have chosen to spend some time holding down the fort in the bar(s) at audio shows. That was a job I was proud to hold for many years until some pesky little health issues forced me to hang up my shot glasses a couple years ago. I was worried that no one would take up the cause! Naturally, my tongue is in my cheek, but only a little bit. That is one aspect of the show experience I will always miss. It was fun subjecting various types of tequila, bourbon and vodka to taste tests with a bunch of friends I hadn't seen in awhile.

As for the music in the demo rooms. The good people manning those rooms are in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. It doesn't matter what they put on, someone is going to be annoyed. The best they can hope for is to bring a selection of software that a broad spectrum of show attendees will like and are familiar with. Do you really think the people who are in those rooms for 10 hours every day enjoy listening to SRV, Norah Jones, Diana Kralll, etc. over and over and over again? Of course not.

As you went from room to room at RMAF you may have noticed that many people were running around with a pack of CDs or albums under their arms. No, they didn't just buy that stuff at the used music store down the street.....they brought it so that it can be played in the demo rooms. I'm sure you'll find most show hosts to be not only receptive, but enthusiastic about putting on music that you brought along. Try it next time.

But what if you left your albums or CDs in the car, or, heaven forbid, the airline somehow lost your piece of baggage that had that stuff in it? Hopefully some of the friends you are meeting up with brought some music, but if not, all is not lost. Go to the Zu room and look for Casey. He'll help you get rid of those same-old-music blues in no time.



RE: I want to keep this short and sweet, so where do I begin?, posted on October 7, 2009 at 16:40:08
Alan Sircom
Reviewer

Posts: 57
Location: London
Joined: May 27, 2009
 I should really give up the bar proppage. After several evenings of bacchanalian excess, I end up with "la crise de foie".

Yep, the Peachtree/Zu room was an oasis of catholic music tastes. And yes, I've done enough demos to know that if I want a full room, Norah Jones and SRV put 'bums on seats' (using the English vernacular).

The point I'm making (and probably not that well) is that we should embrace music from today, otherwise we are never going to reach today's music buying generation. I don't think "if you build it, they will come" applies, but "if you don't, they won't" certainly does.
-
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus magazine, from cold, windy and wet Englandshire
I think you're missing the point, posted on October 7, 2009 at 09:13:08
Jim Austin
Reviewer

Posts: 491
Location: Northern New England
Joined: November 8, 2007
 As you know, the question was about the recordings used in reviews by Stereophile writers. My perspective is perhaps unique, since I'm one of the few people in this industry who has been at it for less than 10 years. I don't share the long, distinguished history, or own 5 copies of all those audiophile chestnuts. I sold off my considerable LP collection when I was in graduate school. I needed money to buy food and beer. I'm about your age, btw.

My tastes are idiosyncratic, and I don't think I've ever used an audiophile warhorse in a review. Yet if I want to do my job as a reviewer, I'm going to turn to recordings I know well and that have real sonic potential. Not much out there these days that matches that description.

I can certainly see the advantages for an editor in cultivating a 'hip' image among young people. But in my experience--which inevitably is limited--today's recording and mastering engineers aren't exactly giving us a lot to choose from when it comes to good-sounding recordings. Even the best respected folks in the industry--Was, and my Portland neighbor Bob Ludwig--have released some bad-sounding recordings in recent years. No doubt there are some diamonds in the rough on the shelves of my local independent CD store (though its LP, DVD, and game racks are expanding as the CD area shrinks). Anyone want to recommend a recent contemporary, popular recording that has musical value and is very well-recorded? I'll go out and buy it today and give it a spin.

And I would read with interest a record-review section in a hi fi magazine that took this kind of approach: Evaluating currently popular--or at least current and widely available--music for musical AND SOUND quality. It's a great idea, reviewing music that a younger, typically non-audiophile crowd enjoys but drawing attention to its sonic merit, raising awareness of that issue among younger readers, presumably, and exposing audiophiles to good new music. I guess all the major mags do this to some extent, but it seems to me that when the review is of something from a currently popular artist, the question of the recording quality is played down in those reviews. That's probably because there's not much to say, unless it's bad.

I've no problem with contemporary music. In recent years I've enjoyed artists as diverse as the Decemberists and The Coup, to name just two very different artists (though I've enjoyed "Picaresque" and "Pick a Bigger Weapon" far more than any of their other discs). I like punk, jazz, and classical, and the cleverest of other genres. But I AM selective, and there's always much more that I don't like. Selectivity is something you've got to expect among audiophiles. And it's a fact that if I want a recording that's going to sound really good, I'm far better off browsing the jazz section at my local used LP shop that I am choosing something off the shrinking new-releases shelf at my local independent CD store. (Most of the space is now given over to DVDs.)

Another issue: Would you really ask a manufacturer to go into a show and play music that the majority of attendees and potential customers won't like? I'd love to see manufacturers seeking the young crowd, but they're stuck with the people who come to the show.

Sure, I'm with you. I'll show up for the guitar-shredding ceremony (though I have to say that sounds SO-O-O-O 1970's ;-). And I wish you the best of luck. But what you've written above sounds more like a marketing pitch than a serious manifesto.

Respectfully,

Jim Austin (the 'other' JA)
http://www.jazz-etc.com
RE: I think you're missing the point, posted on October 7, 2009 at 19:35:29
Alan Sircom
Reviewer

Posts: 57
Location: London
Joined: May 27, 2009
 Hi Jim,

No, it's not developing a 'hip' image and not a marketing pitch. If I were planning a hip image, I'd be surfing Spotify and listing a bunch of nowbiter bands than almost no-one's ever heard of to add cred points. I'm genuinely concerned that we are writing off yet another generation because we are all kicking at an open door.

I agree that you have to play to the audience you've got. There's no point in playing Pantera at a fair lick to a group of classical enthusiasts, or vice versa. But I think in narrowing our musical perspective, we are increasingly playing to an ever-smaller crowd. It's a vicious circle - play music that a certain group of audiophiles like at the expense of the wider group of music lovers, so you have to play increasingly audiophile music.

And I don't mean every demonstration should only include Beyoncé and Lady GaGa tracks. I'm just worried that there's precious little music being demonstrated from the 21st Century.

There's another issue at play. If music today is increasingly a casualty of the loudness war, we are not the generation that's going to change things. The only way for this to happen is to engender anger in the generation who buys music in large quantities. And I feel the only way that's going to happen is if they hear the alternatives; a good modern recording played through a decent system, compared to a compressed one.

It doesn't matter what age you are, if you play Metallica's Death Magnetic and play Mastodon's Crack the Skye back to back on a good system, you'll start asking questions why Metallica sounds that bad. If you do the same on an iPod through the standard earphones and at so-so bit rates, you might not notice the differences. Now if everyone my age shouts about this, it can and will be dismissed as "grumpy old git speak", but if every 19 year old does the same thing, maybe there will be a change.






-
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus magazine, from cold, windy and wet Englandshire
RE: I think you're missing the point, posted on October 9, 2009 at 22:04:16
mpw
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Joined: November 30, 2000
 just wondering why you want to try to "change" anyone. the people
who like good music along with good sound will naturally gravitate
towards high-end equipment.

I think that the first criteria about playing
any music is that you like it. liking it includes liking the sound of the
recording and not necessarily in audiophile terminology. However if the sound of the recording detracts from liking of the music then there is a problem. regardless, i don't want to listen to music that i dislike no matter how great it might sound.

Michael
I am not trying to change anyone, posted on October 10, 2009 at 10:51:39
Alan Sircom
Reviewer

Posts: 57
Location: London
Joined: May 27, 2009
 You are absolutely right, "people who like good music along with good sound will naturally gravitate toward high-end equipment." But the problem is unlike almost any time in the past, we as audiophiles have disconnected from the current generation of music lovers.

The idea of this new generation of people turning up to an event with a pouch of CDs is absurd, because they might not use CD in the first place. This does not mean they listen to lo-fi MP3s, but simply means they get their music in CD quality (and beyond) online. So, what happens if a guy walks into a demonstration that he likes the sound of and pulls out his iPhone or a thumb drive and asks if he can play a track? In many cases, the answer is 'no'... and the music available has next to no resonance with him.

If we are ever to make such a person appreciate what good audio can do for them, we need to accommodate their musical demands, either by making provision for their music carrying format or by doing what we always used to - selecting the best 'now' music.

In short, what I'm saying we need to add to the audiophile's musical canon on a regular basis. Each year, a few mainstream recordings worthy of demonstration should make the grade and a few older ones should be sidelined.

What is so wrong with that?
-
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus magazine, from cold, windy and wet Englandshire
RE: I am not trying to change anyone, posted on October 10, 2009 at 18:58:46
mpw
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Joined: November 30, 2000
 thanks Alan for the response.

But it is not a crusade to get the younger
generation into listening to high-end audio is it?!
how did you become interested in high quality sound? For myself I have
always listened to music tried to appreciate 'good' music. In the early
80's i would pick up TAS and Stereophile and learn quite a bit about
components and brand names etc. I had an interest in music.

maybe the younger generation is satisfied with Ipods,Mp3's and even Cd's
as giving them enough quality to enjoy the music. if that is the case then fine. The people who want higher quality will discover it like the rest of us.

Demo rooms at audio shows should not 'dumb down' the music just to entice
the young people to listening to their equipment.

Yes, reviewers should be on the look out for newer music that is
worthy of the review process. However, a buyer wanting to demo a product at a dealers store should be able to choose the music to play.

One way the young are getting interested in high-end audio is via
vinyl. The young are discovering great music by buying used LP's. Then
they start to compare these LP's with their cd's and mp3's and they
think maybe my cd's and mp3's don't sound so great. Another venue
is buying Vintage equipment. One can buy used high-end audio for very
reasonable prices. Check all the activity on the vinyl and vintage aslyum boards.

In short there are other ways of getting the young interested in high-end
audio then just getting them to listen and wanting them to buy expensive equipment that they cannot afford anyway.

I would like it if Stereophile and Hi-FI News had a monthly vintage
audio section.

Michael
RE: I am not trying to change anyone, posted on October 11, 2009 at 02:50:11
Alan Sircom
Reviewer

Posts: 57
Location: London
Joined: May 27, 2009
 Although I inherited a surprisingly good system when I was very young, but it was too large to survive the divorce of my parents and the subsequent move to a far smaller house. So, in reality I got into audio using the same route through which many of my peers got into audio; I sneakily played my discs on the system of an audiophile parent of a high school buddy. I found that Trans Europe Express by Kraftwerk sounded a lot better when played through a good system and that you could play it far louder. I was sold. Which is why at college I was the guy with the Dual, the NAD and the Wharfedale system and I had a steady stream of stoners trying not to fall off my floor listening to Yes and Pink Floyd albums. On several occasions, I was one of the stoners (and I did inhale).

This was about the time of the Rise of the Walkman and I had many fellow students look scornfully at my 'Dad stuff' system next to their music on the move, who ended up buying their own 'Dad stuff' system after listening to mine. I've met people I was at college with who stuck firmly to their Walkmans at the time, but on the basis of hearing my system knew there was more out there and five or even 10 years later ended up buying a decent system themselves, because that experience was stored away somewhere. Would they have bought a decent system if the first time they experienced one was when they were in their 30s? Perhaps, perhaps not.

Remember that this was when 'the younger generation' was playing music that hi-fi buffs of the time considered 'unlistenable' and of 'no appreciable audio quality' - bands like The Fall and The Clash, and over-produced early 1980s acts like Spandau Ballet. Some of the more fusty parts of the business felt 'hi-fi' should be the preserve of the classical music enthusiast alone (this was a kind of perversion of the late John Crabbe's enthusiasms as editor of Hi-Fi News through the 1970s). Irrespective of this, young people kept buying good audio, because they could hear how their Fall, Clash and Spandau albums sounded through those rare 'good' systems. And they sounded better too.

Now compare this to today. There may be no simple way for someone who downloads their music to play it through an audiophile system. This is not 'fine'... it means those who are young enough to be passionate enough to be into music miss out on the 'hook' that might set them on the path to hearing better sound. This ultimately means we run the risk of losing yet another generation of potential music lovers, mostly through inertia.

I'm not saying demo rooms at audio shows should be dumbed down, but those running the demos should be aware that there has been good, well-recorded music written since 1987 and some of it was not recorded by Diana Krall. These don't have to be 'dumbed down' either - what's 'dumbed down' about Lambchop, for example?

You are absolutely right that a "a buyer wanting to demo a product at a dealers store should be able to choose the music to play". And by ignoring anything recorded recently, we are systematically failing to do that for most people under the age of 40. The industry is already facing a demographic time-bomb by not addressing the download generation; by failing to play music that someone who's into todays music might want to hear is merely lighting the fuse.

The rebirth of the LP among the young is an exciting trend, but I'm not convinced it necessarily leads to a new generation of audiophiles either. If you view the stats closely (not easy if you are a 'civilian', I grant you) the hardware sales are largely predicated on low-rent USB turntables. They don't compare and find MP3 lacking; they squirt LP into one of many programs that 'tidies up' LP and then store it as an MP3 file. LP is just a hipster way of plundering old music in thrift stores, and it looks cool to collect. Meanwhile the increase in LP sales is mostly premium 180g and beyond audiophile pressings to those a couple of generations older.




-
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus magazine, from cold, windy and wet Englandshire
RE: I am not trying to change anyone, posted on October 12, 2009 at 08:14:12
mpw
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Joined: November 30, 2000
 Yes, Alan all your points are valid and well taken. Your story of how you got into high-end audio is one variation of a typical travel that all us have taken. My college days were in the 70's when lots of students had the now vintage SS receivers (Marantz, Pioneer, Harman Kardon etc.) and speakers like KLH, Advent etc. i don't remember anyone having a 'real' high-end system and no one was using a tube based system. I had the HK 330c, with advents and a Dual TT. Yes, we did play all the classic rock
stuff, folk and jazz records that i wished I owned today (records and system were stolen at the University many times). Also I did inhale with my fellow stoners!

Looking back on those times I wish that I had some audio 'mentor' to guide
me towards more interesting components which i later discovered in the 80's and still discovering today. I think that it is a little bit intimating walking into a high-end audio store as a 'newbie'. I still feel that intimation, like i am walking into some sacred place. One step towards helping the new generation would be to have Dealers showrooms more user friendly and educational. Weekly or monthly seminars on how systems are put together would be very helpful to the newbie and also with
the added benefit of getting them thinking about how components sound together as an overall system. These newbies would become customers in the future.

I still believe that the used audio market is where new and experienced audiophiles can learn a lot and experiment with different components in an affordable way.

As a side not note: i do read British high-end mags, own British: speakers (B&W, Rogers), TT (Linn, Rega, Dual). I did attend as a grad student University of Essex! and grew up in the Boston, Ma. area.

Anyway lets all enjoy the music and spread the word that good sound does make a difference!

Michael
OK, so help me out here, posted on October 8, 2009 at 07:57:30
Jim Austin
Reviewer

Posts: 491
Location: Northern New England
Joined: November 8, 2007
 How 'bout providing a list of reference-quality recordings with good, recent music that young people are listening to today? I'll buy them, listen, and see if they're suitable for reviews, IMO.

Jim
http://www.jazz-etc.com
RE: OK, so help me out here, posted on October 8, 2009 at 12:39:44
Alan Sircom
Reviewer

Posts: 57
Location: London
Joined: May 27, 2009
 No Problems, here 10 relatively recent good ones:

The Raconteurs - Consolers of the Lonely
Biffy Clyro - Puzzle
Mastodon - Crack the Skye
Radiohead - In Rainbows
Jason Mraz - We Sing, We Dance, We Steal Things
Rodrigo Y Gabriella - Rodrigo Y Gabriella
Feist - Let It Die
John Mayer - Continuum
Amy Winehouse - Frank
Ray LaMontagne - Til The Sun Turns Black

You could also add Melody Gardot - My One and Only Thrill - if you still want girl jazz singer sounds that are current and chartworthy.

-
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus magazine, from cold, windy and wet Englandshire
RE: OK, so help me out here, posted on October 8, 2009 at 16:22:42
Peter Breuninger
Reviewer

Posts: 292
Joined: August 28, 2002
 My 16 year old knows nothing of these!

Peter

RE: OK, so help me out here, posted on October 9, 2009 at 01:11:18
Alan Sircom
Reviewer

Posts: 57
Location: London
Joined: May 27, 2009
 The problem with music for 16 year olds is it's very country-specific. Pixie Lott and Dizzee Rascal may be huge here in the UK, but have nothing going on in the US.

That said, I do like 'She Wolf' by Shakira and that's pretty international, but my reasons for liking that track have nothing whatsoever to do with audiophile sensibilities. She's intriguingly bendy in the video.

And my point wasn't to unleash a bunch of teenypop records on audiophiles, but to try and re-introduce music that a new generation of audiophiles (as in, those under 35) might already own or want to own.

We should be listening to the dealers. They are at the coal face, asking people to bring in music should expose them to a huge collection of diverse music that works. When I was working in a dealer in London, my musical interests blossomed, being exposed to the likes of Cheb Khaled, Ali Farka Toure, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and Malkit Singh. I'd love to hear what people are bringing into dealers today.
-
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus magazine, from cold, windy and wet Englandshire
RE: OK, so help me out here, posted on October 9, 2009 at 22:06:12
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Allen:

Very, very cool reference to some excellent North African and Eastern music. One of my favorite genres. I'm impressed. Not bad for a 40 something Brit.

My concert obsession is Tinariwen. I discovered them at a Robert Plant concert in 2005. Now throw in Oumou Sangare, Amadou and Miriam, and you got something.

I also love the stuff Michael Brook did with Nusrat.

Shakira? Her hips for SURE don't lie. My goodness. Not crazy about the new single though.

RE: I think you're missing the point, posted on October 7, 2009 at 12:56:57
John Atkinson
Reviewer

Posts: 1900
Location: New York
Joined: November 24, 2003
 >Would you really ask a manufacturer to go into a show and play music that the
>majority of attendees and potential customers won't like? I'd love to see
>manufacturers seeking the young crowd, but they're stuck with the people who
>come to the show.

I am reminded of a room at a Stereophile Show a few years back where someone
played a NiN cut. The room emptied, not only of old farts like me, who prefer Diana
Krall and Jennifer Warnes to Trent Reznor, but also of GenXers. :-)

On the other hand, I remember the late Peter Snell also emptying a room with Act One
of the Montserrat Caballe Tosca in the early 1980s.


John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
RE: I think you're missing the point, posted on October 7, 2009 at 14:40:53
paul.bolin1@gmail.com
Reviewer

Posts: 5
Location: Minnesota
Joined: September 29, 2009
 A few years ago at a Stereophile show, I asked Steve Davis, then of Hi-Fi Farm, if he would mind playing one of my K-Pop girl group CDs. Steve threw it into the player and cranked it WAAY up. He loved it and so did I. The look on the face of a well-known writer for another magazine, when he walked into the room, was priceless. No, it wasn't HP.

The recording more people have asked me about more than any other when I have played it at shows is Zero 7's "Simple Things." I think that qualifies as relatively hip and/or esoteric. Kruder & Dorfmeister usually gets peoples' attention too.

Paul Bolin
Editor-at-Large
TheAudioBeat.com
"Hydrogen is not the most common element in the universe. STUPIDITY is the most common element in the universe." Frank Zappa
RE: I think you're missing the point, posted on October 7, 2009 at 10:29:06
ScottZ
Audiophile

Posts: 407
Location: NorCal
Joined: April 21, 2005
 "I'm going to turn to recordings I know well and that have real sonic potential. Not much out there these days that matches that description."

I get the impression that you're not looking very hard. Generally, I agree that most popular recordings today sound horrible, but there are exceptions. As you know, vinyl LPs are becoming ever more popular among young folks. A parellel trend is artists who use vintage (sometimes tube) recording equipment, M. Ward and the Brian Jonestown Massacre to name a couple. So there are younger people who do care about sound quality. These are budding audiophiles. Where do they turn to get more information on audiophile matters? Certainly not Stereophile or TAS. I can't imagine a more alienating experience for a twenty-something than opening the pages of these audiophile magazines. IMO the best way to shift the masses toward caring about sound quality is to have popular hip music magazines/webzines such as Pitchfork, Spin and Paste start addressing the sound quality of the albums they review and featuring reviews of quality affordable audio gear. I'm not hopeful that will happen. The masses will probably go down the road of loud, compressed digital recordings while a very small number of audiophiles enjoy something better.

Here are just a few notable contemporary pop/rock recordings with excellent sound quality (vinyl format only, unless noted otherwise):

Sigur Ros, Takk (OOP but will be reissued on vinyl this month. It's as good as anything out there)
Beck, Sea Change (vinyl and sacd)
Ryan Adams, Heartbreaker (vinyl and sacd; his other albums generally sound good)
Flaming Lips, Yoshimi Vs. The Pink Robots (dvd-a)
The Raconteurs, Consolers of the Lonely (Jack White of the White Stripes usually puts out fine sounding albums on vinyl)
John Vanderslice, Pixel Revolution
RE: I think you're missing the point, posted on October 7, 2009 at 10:36:46
Jim Austin
Reviewer

Posts: 491
Location: Northern New England
Joined: November 8, 2007
 >>I get the impression that you're not looking very hard. <<

That's a fair assessment. It's hard, and expensive, to find new music that sounds good and is good. As you acknowledge, the odds aren't great if you just grab a new release off the shelf. And there aren't many venues out there talking about the sound quality of new music.

I appreciate the recommendations. There are some artists on that list that just aren't for me, but there are also some I'll pursue. Much appreciated.

Jim
http://www.jazz-etc.com
Whaaa?, posted on October 7, 2009 at 09:58:05
powermatic
Audiophile

Posts: 5600
Location: central oregon
Joined: November 24, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2008
 "...I would read with interest a record-review section in a hi fi magazine that took this kind of approach: Evaluating currently popular--or at least current and widely available--music for musical AND SOUND quality."

Fremer uses this methodology for record reviews in 'Tracking Angle'. Granted, many of his reviews are for reissues, but he also listens to new/obscure music.

"Anyone want to recommend a recent contemporary, popular recording that has musical value and is very well-recorded? I'll go out and buy it today and give it a spin."

Sure-that's not really a problem, but for a start try anything by 'The White Stripes' (or for that matter, any of J. Whites spinoff bands) or if you're into that whole female vocalist thing, and want to (hopefully) move away from Diana Krall, anything by 'Cat Power'.

This is assuming your system has the capability to play LPs, since that's my standard, and dare I say, 'reference'. As a professional reviewer, I'd imagine it does. Right?



"dammit"
RE: Whaaa?, posted on October 7, 2009 at 10:06:30
Jim Austin
Reviewer

Posts: 491
Location: Northern New England
Joined: November 8, 2007
 >>Fremer uses this methodology for record reviews in 'Tracking Angle'. Granted, many of his reviews are for reissues, but he also listens to new/obscure music.<<

I have read and enjoyed many of his reviews in "Tracking Angle," and they have led to a few purchases.

>>Sure-that's not really a problem, but for a start try anything by 'The White Stripes' (or for that matter, any of J. Whites spinoff bands)'<<

I owned one White Stripes CD for a while, but I think I sold it (still have it on iTunes, however. I thought it was OK. Never bought any LPs, however. I was looking for a particular Raconteurs LP a while back at local stores--don't recall which LP--but couldn't find it. I'll have another look/listen.

>>or if you're into that whole female vocalist thing, and want to (hopefully) move away from Diana Krall, anything by 'Cat Power'.<<

I own a couple of those, too. I rather like "We Are Free" in certain moods...

>>This is assuming your system has the capability to play LPs, since that's my standard, and dare I say, 'reference'. As a professional reviewer, I'd imagine it does. Right?<<

Of course. But are you implying that I should write off pop CD's for sound quality? Yes, I know they tend to be more dynamically compressed, despite the theoretically superior dynamic range. Just making sure I'm reading you right.

Thanks,
Jim


http://www.jazz-etc.com
"But are you implying that I should write off pop CD's for sound quality?", posted on October 7, 2009 at 10:22:45
powermatic
Audiophile

Posts: 5600
Location: central oregon
Joined: November 24, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2008
 Nope. In fact, if you want to have new releases, you can't ignore CDs, since even with the 'renaissance' in LPs the vast majority of music is available in digital form only. Just saying that for me, LPs are as a general rule sonically superior, and thus my sonic standard. Hence, my recommendations may not impress if you are digital-only.







"dammit"
Not trying to corner you or anything, posted on October 7, 2009 at 13:08:53
Jim Austin
Reviewer

Posts: 491
Location: Northern New England
Joined: November 8, 2007
 but you just helped me make my point. The vast majority of new releases are on CD, and your sonic standard is LP. There's not much more to say.

Jim
http://www.jazz-etc.com
RE: Not trying to corner you or anything, posted on October 8, 2009 at 18:36:59
powermatic
Audiophile

Posts: 5600
Location: central oregon
Joined: November 24, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2008
 Didn't realize you had made a request for 'cd only'. Well, in matter of fact, you didn't. You asked for a modern pop recording of high sonic quality, and I gave you (more than) one, of many, many out there in Music Land.

That being said, since I rarely read 'Stereophile' reviews any longer, I'm out of practice at 'reading between the lines'. I'd guess that's where the problem lies.

vaya con dios



"dammit"
RE: I think you're missing the point, posted on October 7, 2009 at 09:41:17
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: November 22, 2003
 "I wish you the best of luck. But what you've written above sounds more like a marketing pitch than a serious manifesto."

Fat old men make the biggest splash ... the new kid on the block must, of necessity, opt for something different!

LOL
Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
Conversing with yourself?, posted on October 7, 2009 at 09:44:22
Jim Austin
Reviewer

Posts: 491
Location: Northern New England
Joined: November 8, 2007
 I feel you're trying to make a point here. But I have no idea what it is.

- Jim, who, for what it's worth, isn't fat.
http://www.jazz-etc.com
"We're Plastic But We Still Have Fun", posted on October 7, 2009 at 09:06:09
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: November 22, 2003
 I'll pass, sorry.

LOL

Actually I just bought a CD for my daughter (13) last night, her favorite band, Tokio Hotel, the rabid fans of whom have been suffering badly the long wait for the new CD, basically their second release after hitting it big.

So we get home, I go off to the gym and return to find she has brought a cheap portable radio/CD played down into the living room and has just finished listening to the full CD.

Now the thing is this is not your typical "Porn Pop" act ... e.g. wanna take a ride on your disco stick, etc. ... rather a not half bad solid rocking band (yeah "band" actually applies). I heard them live in Montreal last summer when taking her (and her sister) to see them. There's not much lead guitar but the fellow on rhythm guitar is so damn good it hardly matters!

Anyway the new effort has that groping about, let's experiment appeal ... something that Paolo Nutini took to ridiculous extremes on his recent similar effort (sadly, as the first was/is excellent) ... but there are a few numbers that are faithful to what they really are all about (and I expect will return to on their next).

I cranked one, "Human Connect To Human", and boy those lads can rock! The songwriting is rather weak (part of that experimenting seems to have been to place more emphasis on the music, less on the lyrics), and the truth is it really demands being cranked, but my daughter's first comment when I first expressed surprise that she hadn't used the stereo was telling ... "I hate it when you play it so loud" ... I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
So...how do you explain, posted on October 7, 2009 at 07:20:01
mt10425
Audiophile

Posts: 1211
Location: midwest
Joined: January 23, 2004
Contributor
  Since: March 7, 2009
 all of the "old" rock and roll currently being marketed to young buyers of "Rock Band" or "Guitar Hero" for various computer game consoles? The popularity is over the top.



"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
RE: So...how do you explain, posted on October 7, 2009 at 16:00:20
Alan Sircom
Reviewer

Posts: 57
Location: London
Joined: May 27, 2009
 Rock Band and Guitar Hero are the ideal tools for turning people on to listening to music through a system. I know, I've done it.

Or at least, I tried to. Having given someone a one-second conversion to being an audiophile thanks to playing Guitar Hero on something other than TV speakers, one guy tried to buy a system and was met with incredulity and scorn because they wanted to enjoy Guitar Hero instead of playing CDs.

If kids are playing Aerosmith through Rock Band, then get them to play Aerosmith through Rock Band on a good system. Then play them Aerosmith on CD or vinyl. Then play them the Rolling Stones. Pretty soon, you've got a new generation of audiophiles.

And I don't recall Diana Krall tracks on Guitar Hero.
-
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus magazine, from cold, windy and wet Englandshire
Ah, New Music! I propose:, posted on October 7, 2009 at 05:14:02
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 8435
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 1. Spike Jones, "Der Fuehrer's Face", a 1942 classic
2. The Pinkey Lee Show Theme Song, and
3. Tom Lehrer, The Old Dope Peddler.

Great music...Better than much of what i heard at RMAF
"What did the Romans ever do for us?"
Ban sultry females doing..., posted on October 6, 2009 at 15:51:38
Tacoleg
Audiophile

Posts: 51
Joined: February 10, 2004
 ...pseudo jazz standards w/ small ensambles; it is so ubiquitous and out of step w/ real music. My guess is any system ahould be able to play Verve amd BLue Note recordings, however flawed they are, as well as ABKO Stones, Apple Beatles, Deutsche Gramophone, David Geffen alt. The point is this is common ground. Of course we can all get more esoteric...

As others have said below..., posted on October 6, 2009 at 15:11:00
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 15929
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 28, 2003
 ...it's important for a reveiwer to use recordings he's very familiar with to determine the sonic signature of a component.

Some of these will be recordings you mentioned because they are very well recorded and show the DUT's qualities fairly quickly and easily.

And in writing a review, it's important he use recordings *his readers* are familiar with so they can understand what he's trying to communicate about the sound and even try it at home.

It's not the equipment reviewer's responsibility to introduce you to new music or to validate your musical tastes.

Try M2D4.

Some reviewers/writers throw in something current or esoteric to show you how cool and with-it they are.

You're tired of hearing about those recordings?

I think you're not understanding the point of musical references in equipment reviews.

Kind of self-focused aren't you?
RE: As others have said below..., posted on October 7, 2009 at 02:09:40
hifimercer
Industry Professional

Posts: 109
Location: No. California
Joined: April 28, 2005
 "It's not the equipment reviewer's responsibility to introduce you to new music or to validate your musical tastes."


wow,

I'm just diggin seeing Kullers response-
so I thought I'd drop my 2-cents in

to this Hi-cyber-Fi nutbag

when I'm reviewing gear I actually talk about the music I listen to as part of the reviewing experience! I'm describing how the system is sounding, via the sound of the music!!! and perhaps my readers haven't heard the music I'm listening to, and perhaps I get to share about music as well.


They have voiced appreciation for it, so whats up your ass.

It's all about the music, its what drew us here (most of us).
It's what drew Mr. Holt in, and Harry Pearson,
and being a confessed music addict - I'm proud to try and turn people onto other music too.

Geez - glad you weren't at RMAF, as it might have been too
Positive for you

or if you were, yeah that was us, the assholes at the bar in the atrium having a good time. You should try it sometime.


mike mercer




Bandsofthebay.com
Positive Feedback Online
Trash Menagerie
Earbuzz.com
I used to try to mention music I was listening to..., posted on October 7, 2009 at 09:49:27
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 15929
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 28, 2003
 ...in my reviews as well.

Always something classical, but lots of new rock/pop, too. I was the first to mention Shawn Colvin, for example, after her first album.

The poster is just trolling to get a response.

Mike Mercer, meet Mike Kuller......., posted on October 7, 2009 at 09:13:31
Bruce Kendall
Dealer

Posts: 26637
Location: SoCal
Joined: February 4, 2005
Contributor
  Since: February 4, 2005
 Mr. Kuller used to write for TAS.



Thanks, we are acquainted...(nt), posted on October 7, 2009 at 09:41:04
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 15929
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 28, 2003
 (nt)

I know we're acquainted, I was talking about you and....., posted on October 7, 2009 at 10:45:17
Bruce Kendall
Dealer

Posts: 26637
Location: SoCal
Joined: February 4, 2005
Contributor
  Since: February 4, 2005
 oops. ;~)



RE: Mike and I know each other, posted on October 10, 2009 at 12:46:40
hifimercer
Industry Professional

Posts: 109
Location: No. California
Joined: April 28, 2005
 Mike and I know each other.

but thanX



Bandsofthebay.com
Positive Feedback Online
Trash Menagerie
Earbuzz.com
that's a pretty low brow attitude., posted on October 7, 2009 at 05:54:07
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 9503
Location: shaky sylmar calif, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 especially for a "professional". i would be embarrassed to have YOU on my staff were i an editor or publisher.

i haven't read any reviews by you but i cant imagine them to be of high quality.


...regards...tr

RE: that's a pretty low brow attitude., posted on October 10, 2009 at 12:50:25
hifimercer
Industry Professional

Posts: 109
Location: No. California
Joined: April 28, 2005
 Low Brow??

look at what I was responding to.

Some of you need to relax, enjoy life a bit.

Bandsofthebay.com
Positive Feedback Online
Trash Menagerie
Earbuzz.com
RE: As others have said below..., posted on October 6, 2009 at 17:24:14
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 This reply was a nice attempt to supply some sort of zinger, and to appear on some high perch, educating the clueless poster.

The problem is when you make an argument that looks pretty on paper, but is laughable on the face of it, you lose me.

So the reason Attention Screen, Chesky, and other recordings are reference are because the reviewer's readers are "familiar" them.

And that is because Attention Screen has sold a million copies of their cd from the Stereophile website. And there is a Chesky disc in every single Stereophile reader's collection? Uh huh.

I must have posted around 5 times that I am NOT looking for new musical recommendations. I just cannot believe the average middle aged plus plus reviewer has only a dozen or so "reference" recordings. I my self can pull over 200 or more recordings out of collection of 4000 cds and reel to reels that I can use. Don't excuse intellectual laziness with serving the reader.

RE: New Rules: Reviewer reference recordings., posted on October 6, 2009 at 12:23:35
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 If anyone wants a good laugh, check out the JA's Stereophile blog about RMAF...he mentions one of the displays playing Diana Krall..then exclaims "I love Diana Krall". All good and well.

Someone posted a follow up comment blasting JA and claiming he no longer has any credibility since announcing his enjoyment of her music.

http://blog.stereophile.com/rmaf2009/i_hate_when_that_happens/

Someone please spank this child and send him off to bed without supper., posted on October 6, 2009 at 13:22:14
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: November 22, 2003
 Thanks in advance.
Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
You're taking petty to a new level. -nt, posted on October 6, 2009 at 12:45:32
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 1500
Joined: August 9, 2001
 nt

RE: You're taking petty to a new level. -nt, posted on October 6, 2009 at 12:51:01
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Either I'm not a good communicator, or you are just thick. Is anyone home?

I was trying to illustrate petty. JA was insulted for his musical taste.

The original intent of my post was to have reviewers consider using a broader range of music in their reviews. Using the same dozen recordings serves the reader poorly, is boring, and ultimately makes the reviewer's job monotonous.

Is it any wonder that certain well known components and speaker are highly touted when they are being reviewed with test tones and "recordings" instead of with music?

So it's wrong when JA's musical taste is insulted, but OK for you to insult Art Dudley's musical taste?, posted on October 6, 2009 at 17:44:58
Rob Doorack
Audiophile

Posts: 4706
Joined: May 26, 2000
 Logical consistency doesn't appear to be one of your strengths.

I note that your creepy fixation on Mr. Dudley continues with this thread. I expect that you will soon progress to trying to film him through hotel door peepholes.

RE: So it's wrong when JA's musical taste is insulted, but OK for you to insult Art Dudley's musical taste?, posted on October 6, 2009 at 17:49:33
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Yet another silly attempt to appear on intellectual high ground by distorting prior posts.

I have NEVER insulted Mr. Dudley's musical tastes. I have ripped HIS insulting of other people's tastes.

Not even a good try buddy.

"I have NEVER insulted Mr. Dudley's musical tastes.", posted on October 6, 2009 at 19:38:59
Rob Doorack
Audiophile

Posts: 4706
Joined: May 26, 2000
 Really? Then let me refresh your memory with but one citation from your sordid history. On September 22 you posted "an 'intellectual outsider' like Dudley should stick to his weepy operas." That sure looks like a comment on his taste in music to me.

RE: You're taking petty to a new level. -nt, posted on October 6, 2009 at 14:43:39
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 1500
Joined: August 9, 2001
 "Either I'm not a good communicator, or you are just thick. Is anyone home?"

Give an example of how your musical discretions have any bearing on the outcome of a review. If you don't think this is all about you, you're being thick at best or delusional in the worst case.
RE: You're taking petty to a new level. -nt, posted on October 6, 2009 at 13:59:11
astralnavigator
Audiophile

Posts: 570
Location: North York, Ontario
Joined: June 28, 2009
 my sense is that a lot of reviewers have gotten to the point where they are either sick of music or have gone so far off the audiophile deep end that they only listen to systems, and so with those few recordings designed to give them all sorts of their favored 'cues'.

There's a chain here all the way to retail - the reviewers are 'evaluating' with the same narrow range of chi-chi audiohile recordings, usually of the female/candlelight/soft jazz/standards variety, the retailers are playing them to potential buyers, who are in the "Stereophile" and "TAS" demographic also prone to, and buying in to, that mindset.

Personally, I prefer to evaluate potential purchases using both common variety recordings as well as below average recordings sonically. My belief is that any high end system can make Jacintha and Krall sound nice. But what they do with a turd is far more indicative.

In fairness to reviewers, they know their demographic, and cater to it well - they use recordings that their guys use too.

This guy makes me miss georgelouis, posted on October 5, 2009 at 17:11:27
geoff
Audiophile

Posts: 549
Joined: April 5, 2000
 well maybe not.

Okay, let's just not get CRAZY!, posted on October 7, 2009 at 20:12:46
keith_d
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Joined: June 15, 2002
 Although it's a wee bit fun.

Never thought I'd say this, but I, posted on October 6, 2009 at 07:17:28
powermatic
Audiophile

Posts: 5600
Location: central oregon
Joined: November 24, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2008
 am starting to miss 'georgelouis', and 'Teresa' and 'George Mann', and even, God Strike Me Down, 'Clarke Johnsen', along with the rest of the wacko squad. I realize they're annoying as hell, but they also tend to add some color to a pretty bland palette-think of them as the lone single-wide trailer in the planned residential neighborhood. The mods seem to be trying to make AA the blog equivalent of The Truman Show.

All's not lost, however-we've still, so far, got 'Wellfed'.



"dammit"
I dare say, posted on October 6, 2009 at 08:34:29
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: November 22, 2003
 the feeling is hardly widely shared!
Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
Agree. Like missing an ingrown toenail. nt, posted on October 6, 2009 at 08:57:19
Rick W
Audiophile

Posts: 6107
Joined: October 3, 2001
 nt

RE: This guy makes me miss georgelouis, posted on October 5, 2009 at 19:47:10
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Mr. Polarity? Nah. He was one trick pony like Theresa.

RE: This guy makes me miss georgelouis, posted on October 9, 2009 at 00:37:39
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2529
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "Mr. Polarity? Nah. He was one trick pony like Theresa."

But it was a very valuable trick. Would that every poster had one.

Polarity switches good. SACD's good. Gotta keep it simple. They're right...

The subject in the subject wasn't.

Rick

Or even RBNG, ..., posted on October 5, 2009 at 18:53:04
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: November 22, 2003
 who was at least marginally less annoying and at a certain level knew he was being a nuisance (a level of awareness sadly lacking in the new puppy).

:)
Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
He's back....as Bob.Wire, posted on October 6, 2009 at 04:46:00
robert young
Audiophile

Posts: 2226
Location: new york
Joined: October 19, 2003
Contributor
  Since: July 13, 2004
 over on Propheads. How pathetic is that?

Hmmmmm....., posted on October 6, 2009 at 10:13:25
Bruce Kendall
Dealer

Posts: 26637
Location: SoCal
Joined: February 4, 2005
Contributor
  Since: February 4, 2005
 Good catch.



And he's run away again., posted on October 7, 2009 at 15:14:19
robert young
Audiophile

Posts: 2226
Location: new york
Joined: October 19, 2003
Contributor
  Since: July 13, 2004
 It'll be interesting to see his next attempted personality transfusion. Or maybe he's back at Hydrogen regaling the gang with stories of his hi-jinx at AA.....

LOL..., posted on October 6, 2009 at 08:33:20
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: November 22, 2003
 Can't keep a good zealot down it appears... but if true is funnier still as he was only under a one month ban, thus no need to come back under a new identity.

:)
Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
And it seems he's gone already., posted on October 7, 2009 at 15:12:26
robert young
Audiophile

Posts: 2226
Location: new york
Joined: October 19, 2003
Contributor
  Since: July 13, 2004
 Pathetic.

RE: New Rules: Reviewer reference recordings., posted on October 5, 2009 at 15:12:13
Bruce from DC
Bored Member

Posts: 18019
Location: U.S. Capital
Joined: October 13, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 Well, they used to use "Love Scenes" (Diana Krall), "Keb Mo'" and "Joshua Judges Ruth."

So the rotation list does move on . . . I guess not fast enough for you.


RE: New Rules: Reviewer reference recordings., posted on October 5, 2009 at 16:50:02
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Good point. By the way, it's contagious. I went to hear some Wilson Sophias about a year ago at a dealer and they would not play anything else but Diana Krall. I actually like her, but in small doses.

They told me a customer of theirs had a bought an incredibly expensive system from them, but would only play 2 or 3 cds, one of them being Krall. His children actually threatened to destroy the system if he played the disc one more time.

"They told me a customer had a bought an incredibly expensive system, but would only play 2 or 3 cds", posted on October 6, 2009 at 17:17:09
Metralla
Audiophile

Posts: 6413
Location: San Jose, California
Joined: January 30, 2001
 They told me a customer of theirs had a bought an incredibly expensive system from them, but would only play 2 or 3 cds, one of them being Krall. His children actually threatened to destroy the system if he played the disc one more time.

and I suppose you believed them. You must have, since you are repeating the story here.

Regards,
Geoff
RE: "They told me a customer had a bought an incredibly expensive system, but would only play 2 or 3 cds", posted on October 6, 2009 at 17:25:45
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 I have a full investigative team working on getting to the bottom of it.

The same team that is looking for Obama's birth certificate.

What the hell is wrong with you?

"What the hell is wrong with you? ", posted on October 7, 2009 at 16:52:53
Metralla
Audiophile

Posts: 6413
Location: San Jose, California
Joined: January 30, 2001
 You do have a temper, lad.

Keep listening to those stories - they are all you have.

Regards,
Geoff
RE: New Rules: Reviewer reference recordings., posted on October 6, 2009 at 05:57:57
Jim Austin
Reviewer

Posts: 491
Location: Northern New England
Joined: November 8, 2007
 >>Good point. By the way, it's contagious. I went to hear some Wilson Sophias about a year ago at a dealer and they would not play anything else but Diana Krall.<<

The dealer should have informed you: Those speakers only play Krall. If you want to listen to another artist, you'll have to get different speakers.

Jim
http://www.jazz-etc.com
RE: New Rules: Reviewer reference recordings., posted on October 6, 2009 at 07:04:55
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Is that something Dave Wilson programmed into the crossover? :)

I would say something but then I'd have to endure some dumbass snot-nosed reply so ... nevermind. nt, posted on October 5, 2009 at 13:56:25
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: November 22, 2003
 .
Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
RE: I would say something but then I'd have to endure some dumbass snot-nosed reply so ... nevermind. nt, posted on October 5, 2009 at 16:47:10
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Not really. Unless your post is a put down, insulting, or idiotic, just like the turd who posted earlier.

I'm goint to presume that this is a serious post..., posted on October 5, 2009 at 13:36:47
Jim Austin
Reviewer

Posts: 491
Location: Northern New England
Joined: November 8, 2007
 ...and provide an actual answer.

There's a serious problem in audio reviewing: Unless you know what a recording sounds like, how can you use it to determine what the system sounds like? A system that makes a crap recording sound like live music might be performing miracles, but it's not truly "high fidelity".

But if you have a particular recording that you find particularly revealing of certain aspects of a system's performance, and that you've heard on MANY different systems so that you've got a good idea of what it ought to sound like...well, that's a far sharper reviewer's tool than a recording one of your readers might like better but that you've only heard once or twice.

And if, like JA or JM, you've got recordings you made yourself, first hearing the performances live and then striving, with meticulous work and hard listening, to capture as much of that live sound as possible in a recording...well, then you've got an even bigger advantage: You REALLY know what that recording sounds like, how it relates to live sound, so you can begin to take the true measure of that audio system.

Reliable reviews require well-known source material.

Jim Austin
http://www.jazz-etc.com
RE: I'm goint to presume that this is a serious post..., posted on October 8, 2009 at 00:51:28
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 6143
Joined: August 8, 2001
 How do you know what you think you know about a recording is correct. The fact that the new system plays it a bit differently than you expect or even prefer may in fact be the system telling you the truth and all of the other ones you auditioned the recording on were actually wrong. The ear adjusts to the sound of things - and if you listen to the same speaker for a decade it becomes a trusty old pair of shoes or a comfy old chair even if it is screwing up your posture slowly.

I play music I like to listen to when I conduct reviews. I try to put myself in the average consumer mode. I want all my music to sound good - if it all sounds good on my system it all should sound good on the review piece. Problem is "good" is a little bit of a soft term. So I try to compartmentalize it to genre - if I listen to AC/DC or Aerosmith - what is the expectation one would have for that music. If I listen to Sarah McLachlan or Colbie Cailatt or Sade or Jackson Browne or Miles Davis or Tupac what will people hope for when listening to that. If people listen to Beethoven's 5th - what should the system bring to the table and on it goes.

One can glean which recordings have a compressed sound, which have stunted dynamics, which are thin sounding and seem to lack body, which are just plain bright, which are over processed. Can a system that softens the bright recording still retain a good recording's impeccable treble resolution - that's the key or is the system over hyping the treble of both recordings - making the brighter one excessively bright while the good recording goes less noticed as being tipped up because it's such a good recording.

I think

Familiar recordings., posted on October 6, 2009 at 18:21:29
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 7558
Joined: June 20, 2000
 Not being a reviewer, I don't have to worry about whether other people are likely to have the CDs I use. So, I can use recordings I like, and since it's great music, I don't really get tired of it--but then I don't audition equipment as often as reviewers do.

Using the same recordings provides for consistency. For consistency, I have been using a Denon 1985/86 Classical Sampler for over 20 years to audition equipment, along with other recordings, of course. Some of the sampler's tracks tell me very quickly some of the major things I want to know about speakers.

"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
I'm tyically, posted on October 6, 2009 at 04:50:33
mt10425
Audiophile

Posts: 1211
Location: midwest
Joined: January 23, 2004
Contributor
  Since: March 7, 2009
 reading Stereophile or other mags while listening to LPs. My ears and eye perk up when the reviewer mentions some tunes that I actually own. I generally play mine so I might compare what the reviewer heard against my own system. I sometimes hear that sound that stands out for the reviewer, sometimes not, it's fun nontheless. When the reviewer consistently uses the same music (which I may have no interest in listening to), I generally continue reading the review with less interest. I completely understand the need to review with familiar tunes, I simply wish more reviewers (like Fremer) would expand the playlist.



"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
Exactly!!!, posted on October 5, 2009 at 19:55:05
Myles B. Astor
Reviewer

Posts: 147
Location: New York City, NY
Joined: April 12, 2000
 And do you think that we enjoy hearing the same recordings over and over again? :) Burns me out real quick playing a dozen or two lps out of 8000.
Myles B. Astor
RE: I'm goint to presume that this is a serious post..., posted on October 5, 2009 at 16:45:40
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Actually Jim, you make some very valid points.

I totally understand the need for reference recordings that a reviewer knows intimately. There is no doubt that is an important component of a review. But given the average age of the Stereophile review staff, they must have many references they can pull off the shelf. With any decent collection, surely they don't have to use recordings they have hear just a few times.

And yes, a recording you have made your self, like JA and John Marks is helpful, to a point.



We all run around with the same few discs when as consumers we audition equipment. Myself included. The problem is, after the 100th time hear the same few tracks, you lose objectivity and start listening to the "recording" and not the music. That leads to bad buying decisions.

Again, excellent post, and much appreciated for the reviewer point of view.
Agreed., posted on October 5, 2009 at 16:38:29
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 7158
Joined: June 5, 2002
 I often use some of the recordings mentioned but only because they are familiar to me and to many readers and not because I like the music.

Kal

You have every reason to be fed up, Mr. Harbeth!, posted on October 5, 2009 at 12:37:10
Bruce Kendall
Dealer

Posts: 26637
Location: SoCal
Joined: February 4, 2005
Contributor
  Since: February 4, 2005
 Why is it taking so long for people to implement your recommendations? Why on Earth would anyone resist making those changes? After all, you have made it so abundantly clear that those actions would make you happy. The only excuse I can come up with is that everyone is waiting for some kind of signal or sign that your list is complete. After all, it would only make sense to hold off until they have a complete and final list of all of the music that needs to banished forever, and reviewers or columnists who need to be reassigned to cover blizzards in Antarctica for the rest of their lives.

I suspect that by now you have learned to cope with the slow and mediocre performance that is so prevalent these days. Pathetic, isn't it?

Do you know what you need? You need a personal assistant! A personal assistant would be a wonderful addition to your life. You could instruct your assistant to get the mail and take a Magic Marker to your audio magazines to block out references to music you abhor, and use an Exacto knife to to remove articles and reviews that were written by people who have no business writing about audio. I'm sure you are a man of many interests, so there is probably work to be done on other magazines you receive. Like National Geographic. How many damned articles on Egypt or the Middle East do they have to publish?

But your assistant could do much, much more than that. Like organizing and bundling last year's newspapers so they can be stacked in the hall with the rest of your collection, or making runs to the store for another box of wine. The possibilities are endless.

But you hang in there and keep the faith. Eventually people will come around to the fact that this is all about you. Until then, have a nice day!



lol t, posted on October 7, 2009 at 20:14:29
keith_d
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Joined: June 15, 2002
 .

RE: Holy SH-- - F Yeah, posted on October 7, 2009 at 02:13:45
hifimercer
Industry Professional

Posts: 109
Location: No. California
Joined: April 28, 2005
 This was simply Brilliant
Wonderfully executed.






SMMMAACCCK


peace,


mike mercer





Bandsofthebay.com
Positive Feedback Online
Trash Menagerie
Earbuzz.com
Brilliant, posted on October 6, 2009 at 17:14:02
Metralla
Audiophile

Posts: 6413
Location: San Jose, California
Joined: January 30, 2001
 That was well done.

Regards,
Geoff
LOL! (nt), posted on October 5, 2009 at 15:06:32
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 15929
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 28, 2003
 (nt)

RE: You have every reason to be fed up, Mr. Harbeth!, posted on October 5, 2009 at 12:50:39
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Actually, a personal assistant is a wonderful suggestion. On the To Do List.

One thing you obviously got wrong, if you actually bothered to read the post, was that its not an issue of music I approve of or not. Unlike certain columnists, I don't make absurd remarks about musical tastes....it's just I'm exercising my right to rib lazy reviewers who use the same 5 or 6 albums in their reviews. I'm a paying customer, and last time I checked, I have every right to voice an opinion.

If you want to know what happens to companies that ignore their customers
see GM, Wamu, Sears, and um, Stereophile. Bankruptcy lawyers and Investment Bankers put one more Maserati in the garage due to all the paper shuffling during Chapter 11.
RE:Wamu-Bad allegory., posted on October 9, 2009 at 00:58:28
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2529
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 Wamu failed because they gave their customers what they wanted.

What good is a reviewer that switches music? It's iffy enough relying on memory without changing the stimuli.

Rick

The ultimate troll., posted on October 5, 2009 at 12:11:07
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 7491
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: March 18, 2003
 Time to get a life.

I resent that, posted on October 7, 2009 at 20:15:37
keith_d
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Joined: June 15, 2002
 Now go back to your Charlie Sheen sitcom and consider the error of your ways.

This one does know how to get a lot of replies, however.

RE: The ultimate troll., posted on October 5, 2009 at 12:14:48
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Pull my finger. Just had a big bean burrito.

What a coincidence, you also just posted a bean burrito! ;), posted on October 5, 2009 at 12:47:46
Enophile
Audiophile

Posts: 7139
Location: Las Vegas
Joined: October 15, 2005
 Thanks for the straight line!

In all seriousness, your job as a reader is to sort amongst the reviewers and use all the data available to you to decide whether or not they have a point of view you that will keep you reading, or that you feel relates to your take on the hobby.

If it's a reviewer's job to lob you music recommendations, fine.

If a reviewer uses one reference recording and evolves all his/her comparative opinion on that one recording, then that's fine, as well.

That being said, I can relate to your disdain for recordings named for furry cock coverings and those terribly monotonous female vocals audiophiles seem to love so dearly, but I wouldn't go so far as to make "New Rules!"

Also, you left out too many: Amanda McBroom, Patricia Barber, Eva Cassidy, Diana Krall....your list of insipid female vocalists falls well short of giving you rule making credibility.

(Joke post, not intending to flame you. Just playing with the subject matter. I took your intent in starting the thread as being light hearted!)

Heh heh, you said Merkin.
RE: What a coincidence, you also just posted a bean burrito! ;), posted on October 5, 2009 at 13:00:56
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Actually, just to repeat, I am not looking for musical recommendations, but if they are embedded in a review, that is fine. And to repeat again, I have no issues with a reviewer's listening preferences...just give me some variety!

Thanks for the reply.

How does he find time to listen to his Spendor or Harbeth?(nt), posted on October 5, 2009 at 11:55:12
samtellig
Reviewer

Posts: 695
Joined: May 22, 2000
 (nt)

RE: How does he find time to listen to his Spendor or Harbeth?(nt), posted on October 5, 2009 at 12:12:56
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Multitasking!

RE: New Rules: Reviewer reference recordings., posted on October 5, 2009 at 09:29:24
Wendell Narrod
Audiophile

Posts: 7966
Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: June 2, 2000
 You have too much time on your hands. :-)


-Wendell

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