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Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus

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Posted on August 25, 2008 at 14:23:45
doughter
Audiophile

Posts: 92
Location: Ontario
Joined: January 2, 2006
 I have been using the Jupiter Beeswax the last couple of years and thought I would try a different cap for the sake of change. So I'm thinking maybe the Mundorf SIO, Jensen PIO or one of the new the new Duelund's but I'm hoping I don't lose the huge soundstage that the Beeswax provides.

So I'm wondering if others might have tried different caps and how they compared.

RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on September 1, 2008 at 03:33:19
Clive
Reviewer

Posts: 286
Joined: June 2, 2004
 I've used Obliggato and Jupiter caps on my Altas. I then discovered that Robert has just started having his own capacitors made, I'm building a kit for a relative so I borrowed the new capactors and tried them. Interestingly the new capacitors are slightly higher value (1.24uF). I believe that other capacitors tried in similar values sounded harsh but the new capacitors acheive the difficult balance of being both smooth and detailed.

I use a particular Diana Krall track to check sibilance, it's quite a mean track in terms of vocals. My fear was that it would be worse with the higher value capacitor. It is better! And the treble is smooth and detailed, more fleshed out too (ie more body or presence). I've been using the new capacitors for a few weeks now and am very happy with them, I won't be swapping them out. A great result.

RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on September 1, 2008 at 04:35:59
doughter
Audiophile

Posts: 92
Location: Ontario
Joined: January 2, 2006
 Clive I did not know Robert is making his own caps. From your comments I will have to include them among the others I'm considering. Not sure if anyone who is changing out caps should now be using 1.25uf.
RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on September 1, 2008 at 04:43:04
Clive
Reviewer

Posts: 286
Joined: June 2, 2004
 I've tried 1.22uF in the past with Jupiters, it added way too much treble, Robert's capacitors somehow work, he must have a secret something in the capacitors.

I'm guessing that 1uF would be correct for anything other than Roberts caps. Maybe Robert can comment.

RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on August 30, 2008 at 01:28:34
b.
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: south africa
Joined: February 21, 2006
 Cant help with the caps, sorry. But I do wonder if more tonal density is to be found in the last octave, would have thought it's more in the range of the widebander, what you reckon?

Dont doubt you on your amps. Anyone else looking for density though and I'd recommend a home trial of the Red Wine Audio 30.2. Also, for a CDP (and dont laugh) the old Sony PS1 does pretty well in this regard.

cheers
B.

RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on August 29, 2008 at 16:33:03
driguy
Audiophile

Posts: 172
Joined: June 18, 2002
 The Jupiter's are remarkably good even for the money. I have not tried any others except for the Dueland's. They are better than the Jupiter's but the differences only became apparent when the rest of the system was very revealing. Depending on your system, there may be ways of improving the sound for the same or less money. The Dueland's have a more "airy" high end which if anything will improve your soundstage. Sorry to be a little inconclusive but without hearing your system it would be hard to say.
Tony

RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on August 29, 2008 at 17:48:22
doughter
Audiophile

Posts: 92
Location: Ontario
Joined: January 2, 2006
 Tony thanks for that comparison with the duelunds. Wow I can't imagine the high's being anymore airier and the soundstage bigger than with the Jupiters.

I guess if I find anything lacking it is maybe what Steve Marsh wrote when he reviewed the Prometheus at 6moons and said that in general open baffel speakers have "less weight or density to the image".

So I was hoping to somehow improve in that department. I am allready running probably one of the most thick sounding amps in a first gen Cary 300bse monos and the 6sn7 Dehavilland pre I have is also along the same lines. Add to it a Cal tube Dac and I think I can rule out these components creating the issue I speak of. Having said that most CD's in general sound thin to me and when I once had an optimum vinyl set up there was less of this issue so Cd's don't help things.

So I thought maybe one of the oil caps might help but really isn't the cap just a high pass for the tweeter and hence does not have an effect on the fullranger?

RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on August 30, 2008 at 19:45:48
driguy
Audiophile

Posts: 172
Joined: June 18, 2002
 The lack of image density vs. a box speaker will always be there. If one is used to listening to an open baffle or a panel speaker (Maggies) or an electrostatic I think they would all have this in common. That being said, the "less dense" (IMO less midbass accentuation i.e. bass slam, UGH!)sound is due to a flatter in room response and obviously greater area for the image to occupy.
Yes, the Cary gear is known to be a little dark and it is. In the last few years that I have had these speakers, (now I have Atlas) I have found that the more you open up the sound the more you can actually sense the bass! Less is more in this case. If you do a search in a few spots here on AA about room tuning you will run across threads having to due with this subject. The darkness of your amps and possibly your other gear have actually decreased the ability of the system to show the full range of the speakers. Nothing will mess up imaging or the sense of realism more than too much bass especially at the crossover point to the subs. Try backing off on the crossover point (or raising it) and see how the image will just collapse with more bass. I guess I am saying that IMO getting gear that is "darker" or more "ripe" is going in the wrong direction. I wish you could hear what a change in the other direction would lead to. If you are in New Mexico or close by you are welcome to come by and hear for yourself. If you want a taste of what real clarity can do change out whatever Cary has as coupling caps to a Mundorf Silver/Oil or V-Cap Teflons. If you look at my other posts in other forums you will see my write-ups about changes I have made over the last couple of years in my other gear. That will give you an idea of what I look for in a system. That way you can get a sense of where I lean. It's kind of looking at a music reviewers past reviews to see if they agree with your general likes and dislikes. BTW, with the Cary's I would NOT spend money on the Duelund caps. My 2 cents.
Regards,
Tony

RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on August 31, 2008 at 04:24:01
doughter
Audiophile

Posts: 92
Location: Ontario
Joined: January 2, 2006
 I hear you on backing off the crossover point and actually have had them around 10:30 for some time with great results.

I actually had another pair of Cary's with about $1200 worth of parts mods including the Mundorfs SIO and yes they were somewhat better but the density issue was still there. Actually the stock Cary's match up better than all other amps I have used (well, except for driver grip which 845's in push pull were with but the mids were annoying on the Prometheus). Don't get me wrong as I have been very happy with the Prometheus the last two years I have owned them but as you know with this hobby one is always trying to improve on sound.

Tony I do wonder if the Atlas helps with image density. Also would be interested if you feel there are any negatives with the introduction of a second full ranger (aside from requiring more space around the speaker) as it gets further away from the advantages of the whole point source sound realizing that with separate tweeters and bass it is not really a single point source speaker to begin with.

RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on September 1, 2008 at 16:57:17
driguy
Audiophile

Posts: 172
Joined: June 18, 2002
 If you are even thinking of going to the Atlas setup it is a no brainer. Most people have a problem because they have time and money invested in a single driver baffle. The Atlas setup (IMO) will give you the following: Better dynamics, less distortion, and yes, a larger, denser presentation of the music. Depending on your room size, the original 12" driver subs should be sufficient. The only downside is the cost of the driver and reworking the baffles. Also, your amp must be able to run a 16 ohm load. Most can without a problem but you will get less power due to the impedance mismatch (assuming no 16 ohm taps). I use an Emission Labs 300b XLS to get some of the power back. I just set my cathode current to 107mA using an adjustable resistor. Oh, BTW, if you are using a mesh plate 300b that is giving you a lusher presentation than a solid plate at the expense of detail, accuracy, openness, and even soundstage. Depends on what you are really looking for.
Regards
Tony

RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on September 2, 2008 at 16:45:48
doughter
Audiophile

Posts: 92
Location: Ontario
Joined: January 2, 2006
 Tony I'm using newer Western 300bs.

It sounds like adding a second driver might do it for me. I'm also thinking of buying a Tone Tubby hemp alnico driver to see how it compares in open baffle.

The 16 ohm is not possible but maybe they could be wired differently. I have tried 16 ohm with other amps and it gave me too much treble and not enough meat.

RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on September 3, 2008 at 13:20:53
driguy
Audiophile

Posts: 172
Joined: June 18, 2002
 Your amp can probably take the 16 ohm speakers without a problem. The only other option is to wire in parallel which will give you a 4 ohm speaker. My amps did not like that at all but YMMV. You will get less output but the bass will actually be a little tighter in most cases (at 16 ohms into an 8 ohm tap).
Those tubes are pretty nice from what I have read and heard but they will take quite a bit more cathode current than a mesh plate and will probably sound a bit better when driven harder that is assuming that you are still running at about 68mA or so. If your amp is self biasing their website notes that you can run up to 100mA safely. Elsewhere on AA you can get ideas as to the sound with increased current.
If you get the Tone Tubbies I would get the treated ones and the 16 ohm units as you can parallel those to get a nice 8 ohm speaker. You may have to lower the crossover point a bit in case the TT's don't go quite as high in their response. The tweeters can go much lower than 10kHZ. Go to Audiocircle.com and tap into the open baffle forum if you haven't already.
Best of luck.
Tony

RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on September 5, 2008 at 01:53:59
doughter
Audiophile

Posts: 92
Location: Ontario
Joined: January 2, 2006
 Thanks for the tips.

RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on September 1, 2008 at 03:46:01
Clive
Reviewer

Posts: 286
Joined: June 2, 2004
 I've spent a lot of time playing with a room analyzer, my subwoofer placement and settings. My experience may not apply to your room but here's what I found:

I used to have the crossover at 10:30 or 11:00 (on the previous plate amps, not the current SAM2s). The analysis mic and software showed that I had a hole at the integration point between subs and main baffles. It's easier to setup the subs this way because you can whack up the bass level to get great deep bass but I was missing upper-bass as a consequence. I now have the crossover at about 2:00 and the level much lower. This excites room modes far less and lets me hear whole bass lines that I'd been missing, timing is better too as my troublesome room modes are pretty much fixed. The graphs I have for the bass response are really quite good now.

I'm also trying digital eq on just the bass feed on my now optimized subs, this really is the icing on the cake.

RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on September 1, 2008 at 04:45:04
doughter
Audiophile

Posts: 92
Location: Ontario
Joined: January 2, 2006
 I have a behringer EQ (collecting dust) that I tried separately on the bass but I think it was messing up the sound somehow. I think I should buy the mic for it and do my own room analysis.

I found that turning up the crossover point did ruin the imaging somewhat as Robert has written about but I'll try your low volume method tonight and see how it sounds.
RE: Any experiences with different caps in the Prometheus, posted on September 1, 2008 at 04:55:25
Clive
Reviewer

Posts: 286
Joined: June 2, 2004
 The XTZ mic & analysis software allows me to much more accurately understand the bass response than the Behringer does. It think it's vital to have a good sub setup before using the Behringer. Also Behringer recommend not using the RTA below 100Hz because it's not accurate (for some rooms), I'm guessing this is due to room modes and because they only use a single mic position.

I found that when the subs are setup to not have a hole at the sub to main baffle integration point, setting the sub level becomes incredibly sensitive. 1mm either way kills or floods the bass.

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