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Manny's rig (update)

64.125.77.18
Posted on May 21, 2007 at 09:19:31
Tmij
Audiophile

Posts: 24
Joined: May 19, 2004
 Going through major upgrades these past few months, Manny's system (previously posted here) finally sounds more balanced and "settled in". Previously identified issues-- insufficient power with his Tri integrated amplifier, the older Beyma tweeter not matching the character of the wideband driver, and, listening nearfield, the wideband driver's tendency to shout (in the Lowther-sense but with a different resonant character) can be distracting.

So, while I had taken pictures during previous visits, we both knew his sound was still a "work-in-progress." Having said that, regardless how minutely incremental the improvement, Manuel always took care of the other essentials :)

Now, here's where its at-- starting with these 300B amps from the Triode Company of Japan. The parallel single-ended TRV-M300SE puts out 20wpc, output tubes upgraded to Emission Labs--

For a linestage, Manuel chose a limited edition TRV-4SE from the same company and retubed with $400 worth of choice recommendations from our favorite local guru.

Then the Beyma tweeters were upgraded to the Bastanis Gemini--

But instead of using the prescribed wood retaining rings to "dipolize" the dome (click pic below to read 6moons review)--

Manuel carefully dremel'd the tweeter's plastic back-cover and reused the same part to hold the voice-coil/dome assembly in place--

A Comparatively minor tweak, the improvement was still noticeable with this bubinga armpod on the Shelter cart/Origin arm--

All problems solved, Manuel's system enjoys a well-extended yet even tonal balance, shout all gone, with probably the most immersive and enveloping soundscape I've ever heard!

Thanks for reading!
RE: Manny's rig (update), posted on May 21, 2007 at 13:35:02
Robert Bastani
Manufacturer

Posts: 227
Location: Germany
Joined: November 12, 2004
Contributor
  Since: October 7, 2004
 Hi,

i remember this face - one day i saw it in the morning, i am not shure when it was and the name of the person but i am shure i felt very bad...

Thank you for your update, very nice!

It could be an additional big benefit for the clarity of sound when you bridge the volume- pot of the power- amps, also you could ask a tube- specialist who knows the design of your power- amps if it is possible to simply remove one power- tube each for low level- listening, i know paralleled designs which sound much better in SE- mode and in this case easy adding the second power- tube offers unlimited dynamics with the Prometheus open baffles. Always be careful with high voltages of tube- amps!

Regards
Robert Bastani
RE: Manny's rig (update), posted on May 22, 2007 at 00:35:41
driguy
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Joined: June 18, 2002
 Nice looking setup! Those amps CAN be run with just one of the output tubes in place. The amps must have the power shut off first though. The sound really opens up! We did this in their (Triode Company) room at last years RMAF. You can double check this with Santy Oropel at Twin Audio. I will forward you his email if you wish. You can have the best of both worlds this way.
I can make a couple of Bubinga horns for you if you wish. I like them better than the plywood ones. Also, the retaining rings shown are to hold the entire tweeter assembly in, not the tweeter dome. I make little wooden clips for that purpose. Nice job on the project. I do not know much about your analog setup but I know those amps and the preamp. The entire rig must sound really great.
BTW, it looks as though you have the fabric screen still installed over the tweeter face. Have you tried it without it yet?

RE: Manny's rig (update), posted on May 22, 2007 at 08:18:36
Tmij
Audiophile

Posts: 24
Joined: May 19, 2004
 Thanks for the kind words, on behalf of Manuel, who's not much of an internet surfer. He also did buy the Tri's from Sandy so they know each other and I'll suggest he run them with one tube.

As for the Bubinga horns, please email Manny here, he might consider that as well as your suggestion to remove the fabric screen from the front of the tweeter.
RE: Manny's rig (update), posted on May 22, 2007 at 08:24:16
Tmij
Audiophile

Posts: 24
Joined: May 19, 2004
 Thanks for the recommendations, Robert, hope we get a chance to treat you one day to the Filipino version of Spanferkel ;)

RE: Manny's rig (update), posted on May 25, 2007 at 05:05:12
Jogi
Audiophile

Posts: 36
Location: cologne
Joined: April 12, 2005
 Hi,

interesting post!
I'm a fan of open baffle sound and was tempted by the Prometheus since some time, but I couldn't afford a new set. So when I had the chance to get a used pair ( or better say: fully burnt in! ) I took the plunge.
Listened to Saba Greencones in OB before and was again and again captured by the magic they can radiate, but also a bit annoyed by the shouting and the lack in lower freq.
And now, with the Prometheus (Beyma and Thommessen ), there is of course more bass, soundstage, dynamics, resolution, but as you said, also to my ears the tweeter is not matching, and the magic is gone, and also the bass is " boxy" sounding compared to the rest.
So I'm a bit disappointed right now, because I find myself sitting in front of TV instead of listening to music!
Could you tell something about the new tweeter and what you did to the widebands to reduce the shouting? Although in my case they don't shout too much, its more of a slightly congested ( resonances? ) sound with a lack of "colours" and expression.
How to get back the magic?

Thanks for the nice pics!

Jogi

RE: Manny's rig (update), posted on May 25, 2007 at 07:06:30
Robert Bastani
Manufacturer

Posts: 227
Location: Germany
Joined: November 12, 2004
Contributor
  Since: October 7, 2004
 Hi Jogi,

there are many satisfied customers using Prometheus MKI with the Beyma- tweeter. I expect the message of the original post is that probably every other tweeter "mismatches" in comparison to the Gemini- tweeter... You also write about "boxy" sound from the woofers - i wonder because you are a German customer and i can`t remember that i have been in contact with you before. Please note that all Bastanis- customers get full support from my side, even on used speakers. There was never a big number of used Prometheus available on the market, some very few exemplars only - but there were a couple of "Prometheus lookalike" fake- speakers offered on German Ebay some time ago using Beyma tweeters, Thommessen plate- amps and 12"- drivers from EM standard- catalogue for the baffles and the woofers.
In case that you have bought a used original Bastanis Prometheus you are welcome and get full support, then please mail me the dimensions of the room, placement of the baffles and the woofers, also please forward me full informations about your electronics and cables, with this informations i can imagine what`s wrong.

Regards
Robert Bastani
RE: Manny's rig (update), posted on May 25, 2007 at 13:01:26
Jogi
Audiophile

Posts: 36
Location: cologne
Joined: April 12, 2005
 Hello Robert,

thanks for your fast reply, and for offering support! I'll give you a call next week-

Ciao,

Jogi

RE: Manny's rig (update), posted on June 4, 2007 at 11:06:45
Domenico
 Hi Jogi,
if you can`t mend the sound of the widebands after talking to Robert, you can try to varnish the widebands with C37. I don`t had the feeling that my widebands shouted, but whan i heard a womans voice i desired a liitle more "melt" we say in germany :-)
So i tryed the C37 finish and i was surprised about the result. The complete statement seemed to be more harmonious.The clearnes and intelligibility of voice and text meliorated.But be care, don`t use to much of the finish because if you do so, it`s possible that you loose dynamic. So try it two times with thinner, and one time pure. Than wait wait wait and wait for minimum 6 to 8 weeks. I be shure that you will be enthused. Than i heard about the new tweeter from Robert. I tryed them. What shell i say ? It`s the best sound, together with the varnished widebands, that i heard since long time. About the Bass : I use dipole Bass with the Behringer aktive frequency controller. Two Thommessen in bypass (one each box). It`s not so, that the dipoles reaching the "BUM" of the original once, but speed and control of the Bass in my room it`s phenomenal.
One question : You are Jogi from http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/ ??
So long, inform us about your progress !!

Best regards
Domenico

RE: Manny's rig (update), posted on June 8, 2007 at 15:19:53
Jogi
Audiophile

Posts: 36
Location: cologne
Joined: April 12, 2005
 Hi Domenico,

I used C37 already with different speakers and electronics, and I like it.
But the main problem with my Prometheus is the tweeter, it produces a metallic sound, which is annoying after a short time.Maybe one of them isn't working correct, because I changed the tweeters for 50 year old Saba papercones I had at hand, and it's far better. Much more musical, but they should be a little louder and there seems to be a dip between 6-and 8000 HZ.
But I can hear now whats possible!
I didn't reach Robert yet, but will try next week again.
And the bass is becoming better and better, maybe they weren't used for a longer time and needed some time to burn in a second time.
But I'm planning the same you did; dipole subs.
But first the Tweeters!

Thanks for your response,

Cheers,
Jogi

P.S.: I'm not that Jogi

RE: Manny's rig (update), posted on June 8, 2007 at 19:38:54
Domenico
 Hi Jogi,
can i ask you whish lodspeaker cable you use ? Before i changed to the new tweeter i used a Black and White cable because it seems to be better in room information and clearence than my Acoustic Balance Yellow. After useing the new tweeter with the black and white cable the sound was verry bad. The tweeter was nervously and annoyingly. I tryed to put resistors in series etc. etc.because i thought that the tweeter was to loud. Without succsess. Than i tryed my old good Acoustic Balance cable. Now the sound was much better,harmonic and without any nervious parts.I can hear music for many houres (my maximum listening time was 13 houres)without having any fatigue.
Every time i wanted to switch off the music,i said to myself : OK, this one Title and than i go to sleep....and than this one title...... and so on :-))
This is what is Prometheus for. To have fun on music !!!!!

BR Domenico

PS: If you try another Sub, try the Behringer aktive frequency controller :-)

RE: Manny's rig (update), posted on June 9, 2007 at 04:10:33
Jogi
Audiophile

Posts: 36
Location: cologne
Joined: April 12, 2005
 Hi,

I tried some cables, one flat copper, silver solid core and an Ortofon litz, the annoyance stays with all of them more or less. My amps should be fine, Ladydays with all upgrades and Mullard tubes and TVC, source is a good turntable wth tube preamp.
Now with the vintage tweeter I don't hear a tweeter at all, maybe because its a paper cone having the same character as the wideband.And because of the dip, which makes everything more forgiving. Its just a bit too low SPL, but now I can, as you say , listen for hours without becoming tired. Funny enough I can hear more details in all frequencies now, maybe because its all more relaxed.

Thanks for your interest!

and cheers,

Jogi

p.S. 13 hours is not bad!!

RE: Manny's rig (update), posted on June 13, 2007 at 09:14:14
Jogi
Audiophile

Posts: 36
Location: cologne
Joined: April 12, 2005
 Hello again,

last update: I found the reason for the unpleasant sound! The diffraction thing in the middle of the Beyma tweeter was loose; I fixed it and voila - much better everything.
The metallic sound is gone, especially piano sounds way more relaxed.
Also I spoke to Robert, and I'll gonna try out some other things to make things perfect.
What a pity that the airforce tweeter is out of reach, financially...

Cheers,and happy listening

Jogi

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