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Behringer A 500 rebuild revisited

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Posted on May 11, 2014 at 01:42:21
electrovert
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Canada
Joined: April 7, 2009
Well it's been 9 years since I posted on my rework of this amp. After heavy abuse they all faded away gracefully. But I had such a big pile of them and had invested so much time and effort the first time around I couldn't toss them. Well I went back in and found some new tricks. The last of which came to me in the shower this morning...any way. The short version is to replace the large caps with an array of 20x 470uF/100V HE type caps, and add 10x (same) across the bridge. It's not a Krell but it is freank'n fantastic. I used some hobby shop copper sheet cut into strips for the busses and pure silver wire to get it into the PCB holes.

If any one is interested in going though this long and hazards process I can fill in more blanks. The addition of the array across the bridge is to stiffen up the bass. This amp always sounded slappy IMHO. The larger array handles the ripple amps inherent in this grounded collector topology. Which is to say the capacitors form a center tap for the speak output and there by act act as a capacitor coupled amp (every note has to pass through these caps). Adding the caps post bridge makes it more like a convention amp power supply. Now the "off cycle output cap is recharged more consistently.

Any way how does it sound. Well "perfect" is an exaggeration, especially given the audience here and the subjective nature of the thing. But I've been tinkering forever, and know what I like. Clean vocals that don't wander around. Bass that reveal the drums like your doing a sound check. I haven't had a good enough source, or speakers to confirm if the top end is without smearing...But I'm going to check that later today. But so far it is behaving very well. Even into a 4 ohm load. I haven't scoped the output and don't have a dummy load to see when she really clips now, but from listening test so far she has more legs than the meters on the front would have you believe.

I was concern that moving the caps off the PCB would soften the slam, but it plenty stiff. Any way if you have one of these amps and a big bag of caps and load of patience you might be (pleasantly) surprised at what can come of it. I took a couple pictures if any one is interested.

Previous mods included quality volume pots, NL4 connectors, and pure silver output wire

Well to follow up. Did some A/B and brought in some young professional ears...and it's coming up lacking...just not as smooth and creamy with something missing in the middle...maybe a bit harsh. So it's back to the drawing board...or the capacitor store...Solen has a deal on poly caps so I ordered a sac of them. If the dip is around 2-3kHz 20+uF should bolster the transmission. Solen has 30uF/250V for $4.13 so with a little luck these can fill/smooth out the response. I'll cheat and put them on the parking spots of the OEM caps, saving me pulling off the heat sink.

A partial/possible schematic shows up here. If it's correct it does look like a QSC offering

Last follow up...clearly marked on the QSC schematic is ripple null. The power supply is tracked by summing it with the negative feed back and feeding it into the front end...case closed.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1527237/objective-device-testing-anything-electronic-or-electro-machanical

Happy listening

Cyber1

 

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RE: Behringer A 500 rebuild revisited, posted on May 27, 2014 at 15:41:31
electrovert
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Canada
Joined: April 7, 2009
Well this just in... we have a winner. Here is the recipe. 1 Berhinger A500, 2 high quality pots, 60x 470uF/100V HE electrolytic, 6x 30uF/250V & 2x 2.2uF/250V polypropylene, some copper sheeting, pure silver 22 gauge wire. You replace the large OEM caps with an 10x 470uF/100V, 15uF/250UF, and 2.2UF/250 for each one. 10X 470uF and 15uF/250V cross the bridge +/- swap out the volume pots. Optional replace the output binding posts with NL4 twist lock connectors. I also replace the output twisted wires with pure silver, biwired soldered to the PCB to the NL4. I solder bridged >off< the bridging amp switch. (As this type off output doesn't really bridge that will. It might now. One other thing to try is switching the 120/220 to 220 and connecting 240VAC to it. This should make full use of the transformer primary windings and boost the rail ~10%. If your running a stack of them real hard might save a bit of power.

What does it sound like. Well better than a Bryston B4...but only 180W into 8. Super tight bottom. No current liming mushy bottom. Stiff and extended. Mids are clean full and revealing. If the program has edge it is present. If it is smooth it is smooth. The noise floor is none existent. If you like running your power amp wide open this is the noise floor for you.

Was it fun to do...not really. Finished cost more than doubled the amps cost. Maybe $800 total including the $230 I originally paid for the amp.

Final result was worth the trip but that's because I can now sit back and forget how much work it was. All connections where quadrupled 22 gauge Teflon insulated pure silver wire. The cap arrays were bussed on stripes of heavy gauge copper sheeting taped together with Kapton tape and then siliconed into place. This takes awhile to strip and solder together. A big old soldering gun is required to build the arrays before you cook the caps.

I have two or three more amps to do now and then I can leave this project forever.

I hope someone find this useful. It takes this marginal device up to where you can actually enjoy it. Ran some NS10M Studio monitors full blast and despite the high SPL nothing sounded strained. Had the golden ears in it passed! Yippy.

Happy listening.

 

RE: Behringer A 500 rebuild revisited, posted on May 28, 2014 at 04:02:20
electrovert
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Canada
Joined: April 7, 2009
I just wanted to post while the "results" are still fresh in my mind. So the point of note was with the NS10M studio monitors the bass was "greater" then even noted before. On B&W 805 Matrix it wasn't the stand out feature. What did stand out was the image exceeded the width of the speaker placement. Now I've had these speakers a long time and used them on many different amps/sources but I don't recall ever having the image/sound stage exceed the width of there placement. I infer/guess that using four interconnect wires has created a multipath. It does not seem to be detrimental. Female vocals are centered and but large. I won't/can't say they are not focused. They just seen to be large. Certainly not a point source. Just seem large. Nothing shifts around. I think a really small cap stuck right on the PCB (one per OEM cap position) will extend the top end (for dogs) but nothing other than that. The sound was drier than I expected. Engaging / clean / full but dry. The content really drives the result. I was using 24/96 tracks >DAC>AMP. I will try a different DAC to see if there is a difference.

 

RE: Behringer A 500 rebuild revisited, posted on May 30, 2014 at 00:26:16
electrovert
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Canada
Joined: April 7, 2009



Here are the caps and how they were arranged.

 

RE: Behringer A 500 rebuild revisited, posted on May 30, 2014 at 00:29:31
electrovert
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Canada
Joined: April 7, 2009



Here is where they connect

 

RE: Behringer A 500 rebuild revisited, posted on May 30, 2014 at 00:34:57
electrovert
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Canada
Joined: April 7, 2009



Here they are snuggled in. I added a pair of tinny caps 0.082uF just to give it a little more "air". Haven't listen to it yet but this is other wise a rap. (note this picture doesn't show the pair of 15uF/250V polys across the OEM cap positions. But if you look at the other pictures you will see how they are attached

The quick an dirty improvement is a poly across the bridge, and the OEM caps.

Happy listening.

 

" Finished cost more than doubled the amps cost. Maybe $800 total including the $230 I originally paid ", posted on May 30, 2014 at 01:20:09
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks for reporting your very interesting project
I am particularly interested owning an A500 myself as well.
I understand that the mods are very beneficial ... but i wonder now if this is a recommendable path to follow.
I mean 800 USD could buy a very good used power amp, better that the Behringer, a cheap unit by design.
It is true that the A500 having the input pots could work as a one input integrated, avoiding the need of a line preamp
Actually i was indeed thinking to replace these pots with something better and use it as an integrated.
But i will read your posts with interest
Thanks again.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Finished cost more than doubled the amps cost. Maybe $800 total including the $230 I originally paid ", posted on May 30, 2014 at 04:22:34
electrovert
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Canada
Joined: April 7, 2009



Yup $800 is insane! But break that down.

$230 for an amp we both own.

$40> 470uF/100V (HE type)/ 10 000 hour / 105C / 1.7 ripple amps $0.67@Digikey

$25 >30uF/250V polys $4.13 Solen On sale hurry before I buy them all

$15 sheet of copper ~12"x 6" as thick as you can solder too (used 350Watt gun)

Now that's $80 sound better

So if you have the rest...that's not so much...as for the pots...well you can do it in software up stream for ~free.

I would recommend pure silver wire...I know it sounds audio pile snobby but using 22 gauge quad wired expanded the sound stage and increase the detail...that's IMHO. Just keep every thing practically short and all the same length. If you have the wire...if not as big as will fit into the OEM CAP holes. Fine stranded copper not tinned 105C preferred.

My way was about 8 hour of labor. If you have never taken this amp apart you may want to consider getting spare lid and side screws as these are sometimes factory striped...

If you have any more questions let me know.

 

RE: " Finished cost more than doubled the amps cost. Maybe $800 total including the $230 I originally paid ", posted on May 30, 2014 at 04:35:26
electrovert
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Canada
Joined: April 7, 2009



here is a better picture

 

RE: " Finished cost more than doubled the amps cost. Maybe $800 total including the $230 I originally paid ", posted on May 30, 2014 at 10:23:01
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi, thanks a lot for the very interesting advice
And i forgot to congratulate you for the great job you did
Honestly i have very poor skills and i could only think of very simple mods
But i am sure that a cap upgrade can be very beneficial
I have noticed that very little space is available on the pcb ... as usual i would say.
But i am very doubtful about the original ones ... cannot be very good.
Let me think about it ... and in case i will ask you for advice.
I am worried to ruin everything (already happened(.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Finished cost more than doubled the amps cost. Maybe $800 total including the $230 I originally paid ", posted on May 30, 2014 at 15:31:57
electrovert
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Canada
Joined: April 7, 2009
Well the last pass with the golden ear crowd pointed to the little caps be way to much. So they are gone. Personally I think a pinch more "air" would be truer. But Have reach the limit of the monitor speakers for accuracy. It's close enough to come down to speakers and personal preference.

That's about it.

Happy listening.

 

RE: " Finished cost more than doubled the amps cost. Maybe $800 total including the $230 I originally paid ", posted on May 31, 2014 at 23:28:03
electrovert
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Canada
Joined: April 7, 2009



If you want to easy into it. Try untwisting the speaker output leads. It's on a glued down connector at the center of the PCB.

If you can solder try bridging the +/- on the bridge with any cap rated 100V...mind the polarity! Even 30uF will make an audible improvement.

In the photo see where the red and black wires are. Put your cap across there. It can be done without removing the PCB. Just don't have any solder bloopos or you're nuked!

I should put a disclaimer in. Something like no user serviceable parts inside. Contact a reputable technician to risk their life. Dangers of all manners of hazards await those who open Pandora's box. Not excluding a long painful sounding life. The author takes no responsibilities for use or misuse of this information. And what Clint Eastwood said "A man has to know his limitations" but that goes for anyone with a screw driver!

The long term reliability/stability of this mod has not yet been proven.
I'll get back to you in another nine years.

Happy listening

It's time to move on to the next padded cell. I think I hear screaming...

 

RE: " Finished cost more than doubled the amps cost. Maybe $800 total including the $230 I originally paid ", posted on June 2, 2014 at 18:22:56
electrovert
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Canada
Joined: April 7, 2009
I wanted to make point. This whole journey has taught me a lot about the importance of the power supply. If the input signal only enhances or retards flow in the output transistors then the supply must be completely regulated to get an accurate output signal...Therefore negative feedback becomes critical to correct not only the errors in the gain path but also the fluctuations in the supply. Since most amps employ a fixed percentage of output as feedback...a broadband low impedance supply should reduce the resultant work done in feedback to correct the supply fluctuations. Put another way. If there is a finite resolution then removing supply regulation from the feedback loop should leave more detail in the signal. That's what I hear in the resultant signal from this modded amp. The lesson is we have counted on negative feed back to solve all our problems, and it's not up to the task.

Maybe the biggest reason tube amps have a different sound is because of the nature of there power supplies.

Someday someone will build a high resolution power DAC amp and negative feedback can be retired.

Happy listening

 

RE: " Finished cost more than doubled the amps cost. Maybe $800 total including the $230 I originally paid ", posted on June 6, 2014 at 02:12:24
electrovert
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Canada
Joined: April 7, 2009
Sorry to keep flogging this horse...But here is a thought. A typical supply gets topped up at 120Hz. So if the output signal is 1.2 KHz the the stored charge in the caps have to deliver ~10 times and the output transistors have to compensate as they sag.

If I understand how the A500 works adding the bridge array allows them to supply current to the output while recharging the off cycle coupling cap array every signal zero crossing. The bridge array still only recharges at 120Hz, and only replaces what the peak rectified signal off the bridge and transformer was doing (OEM) but it does it with a much more constant source of energy. Thus boucey bottom turns to slam and veiled midrange turns to smooth silk.

IMHO I just got the them Y-corded in and bi-wired Bi-amped out. I wish I had done this nine years ago. They are really playing out of there league. again IMHO.

Another observation is that the extra stored charge puts a strain on the power supply during power up...You can hear the power transformer buzz on units without the thermistor. Not a big fan of this form of in rush current limiting but...in this case works just fine. Power cycling before the caps have discharged will put a little thump into your speakers...! So the fancy solution would be a timing relay that step starts with a resistor and shorts or opens the output. But the $210 DigiKey wants for a quality relay is to steep for this project.

Happy listening.

 

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