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In Reply to: I'd Try DrP across C1+ Excel Spread Sheet posted by VoltSecond on January 21, 2007 at 14:50:58:
Thanks VS,That was very interresting to see the difference when the tank is damped. I thought that might be a problem, but I wasn't sure how everything interracts in that type of circuit. One question though, Mike says that the Hi Ni bcp-16 has over 2500H of inductance compared to the 750H you used, which when put into the spread sheet, if I am using it right, would give me a series resistor of 79.5k along with the .66u cap. Is this one of those times where in practice there is a certain point where it doesn't matter if the value is higher?
As an aside, I was origionally going to use your delay circuit, and then had boards made up for it using 1200v schottkeys. Then I read your post on the bottlehead forum about the necessary voltage for safety and decided it would be easier to just use a 5u4 than get new boards with stacked uf4007s and one schottkey. My question is, do you know if that circuit would work in the seduction? Or should I just save them for another project?
The DrP resistor isn't very sensitive to its value. 75K to 82K should work. If you want lower peaking, the DrP capacitor has to be about 1 u instead of .66U. The damping with .66u should be good enough.I don't have the current seduction schematic so I can't answer. I built one of the proto-runs which was different than the production runs.
Play safe and play longer! Don't be an "OUCH!" casualty.
Unplug it, discharge it and measure it (twice) before you touch it.. . .Oh!. . .Remember: Modifying things voids their warranty.
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Hello VS and van of monks:I just simulated some parameters with VS version2.G
here were my "inputs"
r plate tube 7000 ohms
r load 990Kohms
L primary xfmr 2500 henries
R primary DCR 4000 ohms
C parafeed .5uf (half a mic)
L choke 250 henries
R choke DCR 1000 ohms
C DrP 1uf (one mic)
R DrP 75000 ohmsand got output peaking of .22db (point 22 db) at about 5 or so hertz.
My Strategy:on purpose I used a plate choke (as opposed to CCS) and kept it's nominal L at about 1/10th the L used in the sim of the grid choke.
For DrP cap size I used Voltsec's guidance of 2 times blocking cap size.
For DrP resistance I used 75K figuring it was more than ten times the value of r sub p.
Another thought: cool as VS calculator is.... and it is a GREAT tool... it still may not capture reality... it may overstate the resonance problem since we are not incorporating the impedance (i.e., losses) of the iron core of the grid choke. So bear this in mind... at least preliminarily.The issue of resonances is one of them hot-potato issues... and ya want to drop it or get it out of your hand as quick as you can. Yet... another issue (that at least I think relevant) is the question of... taking a horrid resonance say at five hertz (which is two octaves below 20 hertz) we still need to (or should?) ask... how will this resonance be excited? Do we have program material that will excite a 5 hertz resonance? If your playing cd's... rarely will there be much material recorded below what... 40 hertz or so? I, too love to crunch the numbers and VS's calculator is godsend (and thanks also goes to
gianluca and the nice gentleman from NY who got the ball rolling initially)... but... we still need to use these programs with a bit of reserve or caution. Use them as tools and use them to learn the relationships that exist... changing numbers and variables around can give good insight into the workings or tendencies of the circuit taken as a whole... but... for those blessed with good test equip... scoping the circuit and looking at the actual behaviour may yet be the best way to do the final tuning.
and one last general question: would an alternative to DrP be to use a high pass filter on the input of the amp? Or would (could?) the slope of an filter be sufficient to keep the amp from "producing" the resonance???
The following is not criticism of Parafeed, it is a discussion of how to avoid POTENTIAL problems using Parafeed. Any, and I do mean any, circuit has trade offs and options. I like having options.The DrP (Damped Resonance Parafeed) capacitor needs to be equal to or larger than the Parafeed capacitor. 1X is quite useful, 5X is usually the point of diminishing returns.
DrP is an option I hope more people come to appreciate.
The DrP resistor is a function of the square root of ( Lprimary/ Cparafeed ) and the ratio of the DrP cap / Parafeed cap. The DrP resistor has little to do with the plate resistance of the tube. The DrP calculator in the excel spreadsheet assumes no help from the DCR of the transformer or the plate resistance of the tube.
Peaking can occur in any lightly loaded LC tank.
…The plate resistance of the tube,
…the DCR of the primary of the transformer,
…the reflected load resistance and
…the core loss of the Parafeed transformer will reduce the Q peaking at low frequencies in a Parafeed.I would not add series resistance to the primary of the transformer or add resistance to plate of the tube to reduce with ringing because it will
…hurt the damping factor,
…could reduced the gain of the stage and
…cause high frequency roll off.Parafeed gain peaking only really occurs in very lightly loaded outputs like preamps and driver stages. This peaking can be a good thing, a bad thing or neither. We can add resistance across the output to help damp Parafeed ringing. This resistance can
…Reduce gain,
…make the tube work harder and/or
…change the sound of the tube.
The core loss of the output transformer (and plate choke) help damp the Parafeed LC tank. Unfortunately, I don't have a rule of thumb for the core loss at this point. The core loss at 5Hz can be greatly different from the core loss at 60 and 1000 Hz regardless of the manufacture of the transformer. I’d rather not use core loss for this damping because I want to minimize core loss for sonic reasons.DrP is a way to add damping with the only draw back I see so far being added cost.
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Thoughts on 1-20 Hz gain peaking issues:Because the “5 Hz” gain peaking can be excited by B+ and grid conduction, rolling off the gain of previous stages does not completely remove the risk of having problems.
1-20 Hz is a problem area with LPs
1-20 Hz could be a problem with bias recovery from repetitive clipping (either at the drive tube or forward biasing the grid of a tube on the output of the Parafeed stage.) Asymmetrical clipping is usually worse than symmetrical clipping.
1-20 Hz can be a problem with 115V line modulation. I've seen a 3 Hz B+ ripple I can't explain. Line dips and peaks could cause large excursions in the bias point. Plug a 500W lamp in to the same outlet as the amp to check for problems when the lamp is turned on and off.
1-20 Hz could be a problem with motor boating between tube stages.
IF there are more than one gain stage in a system, make sure if there is peaking that the peaking does not occur at the same frequency. Three 15 dB peaks at 5 Hz gives a total system peak of 45 dB. With multiple stages and amps, either split the frequencies where the peaks occur an octave apart or damp the peaking some how.
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Other notesBecause of the DrP resistor in series with the DrP capacitor, the Parafeed capacitor shorts out the sound of the DrP cap at almost all frequencies. This means the DrP cap can be a slightly lower grade than the Parafeed capacitor. I happen to like metal foil capacitors. I could use a metal foil (film and foil) capacitor for the Parafeed capacitor and then use a metalized cap for the DrP cap.
Note: Mike has asked for permission to post the spreadsheet in his magnetics library. After we're done tweaking the spreadsheet, I'm going to let Mike put a copy in his library.
Play safe and play longer! Don't be an "OUCH!" casualty.
Unplug it, discharge it and measure it (twice) before you touch it.. . .Oh!. . .Remember: Modifying things voids their warranty.
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