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If you need such "display routines" to confirm personal patriotism, then so be it...

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In Reply to: RE: Red Skelton Its amazing what he knew back then in 1969 posted by Michael Samra on November 07, 2009 at 03:02:45

It's probably simply a question of differing cultural characteristics, but I found such glutinous self-indulgent self-congratulatory display thoroughly distasteful...

But then, I've always wondered just how much of a keen patriotism likely to be so inbuilt into the personalities of most folk that it would never need be questioned would actually need(!) to be obviously displayed, and if so, quite why that might be the case... :o)

In the US, for whatever reason(!), an apparent need to make some obvious routine display of Disney-style "patriotism" does seem to be curiously widespread amongst that culture... :o)

Bill.

Follow Ups:

RE: If you need such "display routines" to confirm personal patriotism, then so be it... - tomservo 07:55:08 11/07/09 (12)
Hi

I am not sure if understanding this better is of interest but to do that, one needs to have more of a perspective.
That was in the VietNam era where our country was torn apart with disagreement, to a degree most couldn’t relate to now relative to the “Sand wars”.

There were the anti war faction of which I was one, having an unpicked draft lottery number that year.
Then there were most adult Americans, people, many of which had served in WWII and parents of the protesters / cannon fodder.
They essentially couldn’t believe our country would ever send our soldiers off to war if it wasn’t genuinely needed militarily.
This sentiment still rings strongly in many of the patriotic, a feeling that the government wouldn’t betray them so they stand unquestioning or refusing to examine the details.
Even the government recognizes this problematic "truth" issue and has recently put retired military personal on the list of likely troublemakers who need to be disarmed should “the worst” come to pass and martial law imposed.
This from the government that was above all to flow from the people to the government and not from the government to the people.

The point though is “Red” was an entertainer my grandparents loved, getting bent out of shape because you have viewed a traditionally minded video he made 40 years ago, using it as some projection of the current and future, seems to be more like the "Disney style" imagineering to me.
- "martial law imposed": and just how likely do you think THAT is? - dave c 18:51:57 11/07/09 (0)
  The closest anyone has seen on US soil would be what? Post-Katrina situations apart... is was introduced then to stop looting wasn't it?
  If you are trying to up the fear factor, you have probably succeeded only to the extent people think it is worth being afraid of YOU.
  Your descriptions of "patriotism" sounds closer to blind obedience and reinforce the image of you as North Korean in outlook.
  
  Edits: 11/07/09
- "This sentiment still rings strongly in many of the patriotic... - castironandtubes 12:13:38 11/07/09 (8)
  ...a feeling that the government wouldn’t betray them so they stand unquestioning or refusing to examine the details."
  
  Well, I have never come across such a person (ever), your premise is a little outlandish in my experience.
  
  Dave
  - RE: "This sentiment still rings strongly in many of the patriotic... - tomservo 13:07:47 11/07/09 (1)
    "Well, I have never come across such a person (ever), your premise is a little outlandish in my experience"
    
    Were you in jeopardy of going to Vietnam, have a lottery number?
    You ever march in a peace protest where the cops used tear gas?
    You live through that at all?
    
    "outlandish in my experience", that i can imagine.
    - That has absolutely nothing to do with the quote that I used. nt - castironandtubes 13:28:17 11/07/09 (0)
  - but it describes him to a tee tuning in to Pox News ... - dave c 12:21:50 11/07/09 (5)
    ... or any of the nutjob lobbyists sending him emails.
    The blind parrot pasting of them that we see here every day, not just from this one blighted inmate, but from all those of a winger tendency is an exact fit.
    It's like there is a parallel universe and he just appears from it through a rip in the fabric of reality and then gets scared and runs for home...
    
    "MMMMUUUMMMMMMMMMMY!"
    - Here we go, Dave... - Dave Mester 15:59:58 11/07/09 (0)
      There is a television channel which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a person in everlasting ignorance, and that is Pox News.
      
      ------
    - RE: but it describes him to a tee tuning in to Pox News ... - tomservo 13:10:39 11/07/09 (3)
      Dave, your as humorous as you are off the mark, but at times, your at the edge of paranoia too.
      - "as humorous as you are off the mark": what does that mean? - dave c 13:40:00 11/07/09 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: but it describes him to a tee tuning in to Pox News ... posted by tomservo on November 07, 2009 at 13:10:39
        
        Surely humour needs to be accurate to be funny, so if you think I am inaccurate surely I can't be funny at the same time?
        Is it more paranoia inducing to be standing outside Winger County looking in or inside looking out?
        
        RE: "as humorous as you are off the mark": what does that mean? - tomservo 15:20:25 11/07/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "as humorous as you are off the mark": what does that mean? posted by dave c on November 07, 2009 at 13:40:00
        
        "Surely humour needs to be accurate to be funny, so if you think I am inaccurate surely I can't be funny at the same time?"
        
        Gosh no, what about Monty Python?
        
        "Is it more paranoia inducing to be standing outside Winger County looking in or inside looking out?"
        
        I would guess being outside, if it makes one actually believe there are a tenth as many websites passing things around to the workers as you often allude to.
        Rather, you might be sensing America's core as some sinister movement, last breakdown i saw put America at about 36% conservative, about 40% moderate and about 20% liberal, some percentage of these folks vote.
        
        "Gosh no, what about Monty Python?": MP was "inaccurate"? In what way? - dave c 15:50:43 11/07/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "as humorous as you are off the mark": what does that mean? posted by tomservo on November 07, 2009 at 15:20:25
        
        So by your figures (unsourced) 1/3 of America describes itself as "conservative".
        Rather different to the image displayed in the endless repetition of lobbyist derived opinions which leads people to the believe that to fit in they should be somewhat wingerish.
        And we know that, despite their differences, Americans have a deep desire to fit in, to be conformist.
        That is the message of claiming to speak for the "silent majority"... middle America...
- What are "Sand Wars"? Is this another winger word to describe some foreign peoples?nt - dave c 11:50:47 11/07/09 (0)
  bleep
- Pse. see my response below to J-PMatt... nt. - feet's too big 09:08:45 11/07/09 (0)
  NT.
RE: If you need such "display routines" to confirm personal patriotism, then so be it... - J-PMatt@Comcast.Net 07:27:40 11/07/09 (4)
but I found such glutinous self-indulgent self-congratulatory display thoroughly distasteful..."

I found a lucid and clarifing interpretation of the American Pledge of Allegiance, outstanding in helping all Americans recognize the spirit and intent of the pledge so that it's words do not become stale and lose their meaning, but instead infuse those who invoke it with an appreciation for it's intent, as well as encouraging contemplation of the responsiblity all Americans have to one another, our unique freedoms and just how this nation works.

"But then, I've always wondered just how much of a keen patriotism likely to be so inbuilt into the personalities of most folk that it would never need be questioned would actually need(!) to be obviously displayed, and if so, quite why that might be the case... :o)"

To answer that, you would need to research who Red Skelton was, what was the nature of his TV show, the times in which it was produced and what the USA was going through when that particular episode was produced.

"In the US, for whatever reason(!), an apparent need to make some obvious routine display of Disney-style "patriotism" does seem to be curiously widespread amongst that culture... :o)"

Unfortuntaely Bill, you have displayed (yet again) a profound ignorance of America and in doing so, you have (routinely) insulted the American people. Once an American leaves High School, there aren't many situations where acknowledging and sharing a public devotion to our nation is called for. Also, you make the considerable and incredibly exaggerated leap of commenting on one individual out of nations of hundreds of millions "publically displaying" his devotion to our country 50 years ago, to projecting that onto all of us 50 years later. Your own participation here at the WC where you probably have more contact with Americans than in any other circumstance of your life should clearly illustrate the opposite of your findings.

After a few years of reading your posts, your "routine displays" of negative criticism regarding any obvious and straightforward fondness for America by Americans, as well as Americans preferring American Beer (served ice cold as opposed to piss warm), American Sports (where a 7th inning stretch is preferred to a tea break) and American Movies (where determined men with normal hair speak less and act more as opposed to men in powdered wigs just sitting around gratuitously engaging in verbal masturbation) now seems more a robotic and programmed response on your part than an honest and organic reaction to something you simply don't like. Perhaps you've made things simple and easy for yourself by deciding, and apparently quite some time ago, to just not like or respect the things American people do. Perhaps it's an intellectual, political or even CULTURAL fashion statement of sorts among those who consider themselves well to do Brits to mindlessly make "glutinous self-indulgent self-congratulatory displays" of despising America. Or as we call it in America-a circle jerk.

Naturally, whilst writing this, I naturally decided that this is all I have to naturally say about this unnatural matter and have naturally decided to let you have the last word whilst I attend to domestic matters this afternoon. I hope you are enjoying your week end, and wish to pass on this tidbit that I am watching the whole of "Fawlty Towers" tonight and tomorrow night on DVD, which was given to me yesterday by of all things-an Englishman, who calls my humble nation his home and wishes to remain here, living just a few short miles from the City of Brotherly Love. I'll ask him to say hello to Billy Penn for you.
- "there aren't many situations where acknowledging and sharing a public devotion to our nation is called for." - castironandtubes 12:31:09 11/07/09 (0)
  ? Speak for yourself, but I disagree.
  
  Making some kind of outward statement of "devotion" is as meaningful to the actual devotion as saying "I love you" is to a relationship (after a guy gets home from cheating on his wife). Talk is cheap.
  
  On the other hand, taking an interest in what is going on in the country and taking an active role in shaping the direction of it is something that requires frequent attention, and much care and devotion.
  
  Feets' verbosity aside, his comments have nothing to do with the fact that he is located somewhere else, and your dismissal of them on that account is rather weak.
  
  Dave
- You're evidently feeling a tad sensitive... - feet's too big 08:21:38 11/07/09 (0)
  I commented as a direct response to the posting as presented by Michael Samra, which implied a current topical relevance of the observations made in the 1969 recording...
  
  I simply made an overall comment on a - to my mind decidedly curious - apparent expectation from some folk (including certain inmates?) that a person's patriotism should be prominently apparent and declared to others (and perhaps risking being targeted as not being patriotic if he or she does not?), rather than patriotism simply being a personal characteristic that could, and should, be taken as read... :o)
  
  Whether from personal sensitivity or other motivation, you have clearly made various other patently unjustified assumptions concerning my actions and motives... Further comment from myself would naturally be inappropriate except perhaps to make the straightforward observation that whilst I certainly actively like many Americans, I feel no obligation whatsoever to like all indicated aspects of American culture... :o)
  
  I hope you enjoyed the Fawlty Towers sketches... :o)
  
  Bill.
- RE: If you need such "display routines" to confirm personal patriotism, then so be it... - jimmycj 08:05:44 11/07/09 (0)
  You mean the one the republicans spat out wrongly while yet giving that moron bachman more press time the other day
- RE: If you need such "display routines" to confirm personal patriotism, then so be it... - tomservo 07:58:14 11/07/09 (0)
  I am watching the whole of "Fawlty Towers"
  
  Loved that show (fan of Monty python too), poor Manuel haha.
  Ever seen Brazil ?
Try again... - bjh 06:43:08 11/07/09 (10)
"But then, I've always wondered just how much of a keen patriotism likely to be so inbuilt into the personalities of most folk that it would never need be questioned would actually need(!) to be obviously displayed, and if so, quite why that might be the case... :o)"

That seems so thoroughly convoluted as to be justifiably classified as illiterate.

Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
- I sympathise if you find your attention-span to be inadequate... :o) nt. - feet's too big 07:00:03 11/07/09 (9)
  NT.
  - Since you seem satisfied with your half-literate babbling I'll leave it at that. However - bjh 08:02:55 11/07/09 (8)
    perhaps you can comment on relative merits of the tendency to public displays of patriotism by Americans v. that form of public expression common amongst the citizens of your country, public drunkenness.
    
    Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
    - We can naturally only speak from our own perceptions... :o) - feet's too big 08:46:19 11/07/09 (7)
      I, and presumably other Brits, would have to think long and hard to recall the last time individuals were seen being publicly under the influence of either drink or drugs... :o)
      
      In my case, I recall seeing a group (an "office Christmas party"?) being a tad "under the influence" about four years ago...
      
      No doubt there will be many other instances that might equally apply in the UK or in other countries, but as to how far drink and drugs may be viewed as a particular local problem, it probably primarily depends where one happens to live and the people with whom one mixes... :o)
      
      Do you drink much?... :o)
      
      Bill.
      - You're such a transparent twit... - bjh 09:34:45 11/07/09 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: We can naturally only speak from our own perceptions... :o) posted by feet's too big on November 07, 2009 at 08:46:19
        
        but no doubt you'd deny relying on "own perceptions".
        
        Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
        
        And you're such a transparently incompetent troll... :o) - feet's too big 09:47:54 11/07/09 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You're such a transparent twit... posted by bjh on November 07, 2009 at 09:34:45
        
        Apart from noting that your perverse incompetence routinely generates a sad smile, further comment is naturally superfluous... :o)
        
        Bill.
        
        " Apart from noting that your perverse incompetence routinely generates a sad smile" Well yeah ... - bjh 10:43:57 11/07/09 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: And you're such a transparently incompetent troll... :o) posted by feet's too big on November 07, 2009 at 09:47:54
        
        but with Wendy and Sox both absent I guess that explains the departure from routine.
        
        LOL
        
        Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
        
        Bearing in mind the Queensland and NSW floods I naturally hope for confirmation that our Oz inmates are OK... - feet's too big 11:01:53 11/07/09 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: " Apart from noting that your perverse incompetence routinely generates a sad smile" Well yeah ... posted by bjh on November 07, 2009 at 10:43:57
        
        Quite how you might suppose that such unrelated matters might significantly influence perceptions and forum responses to other inmates only you are likely to be able to hazard some sort of informed suggestion... :o)
        
        Keep taking the tablets... They may eventually generate at least some sort of improvement... :o)
        
        Bill.
        
        Errrr... if there are QLD floods, they haven't told us! - dave c 12:26:43 11/07/09 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Bearing in mind the Queensland and NSW floods I naturally hope for confirmation that our Oz inmates are OK... posted by feet's too big on November 07, 2009 at 11:01:53
        
        NSW is copping it and Soxie seems to have gone quiet...
        
        Glad to hear that you are OK... - feet's too big 13:52:00 11/07/09 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Errrr... if there are QLD floods, they haven't told us! posted by dave c on November 07, 2009 at 12:26:43
        
        I was sure that a report read yesterday mentioned Queensland and NSW as being affected, but if Queensland is unaffected then I'm naturally delighted...
        
        Soxie's continued silence remains somewhat unsettling...
        
        Bill.
        
        As fra as I am aware it hasn't rained on my parade for several days - dave c 14:49:17 11/07/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Glad to hear that you are OK... posted by feet's too big on November 07, 2009 at 13:52:00
        
        There is something moving in off the ocean and the forecast is for rain later today.
        Down south (sort off... maybe 400km/250 miles) they are having all sorts of trouble.
        As we are in the middle stages of spring...ok, it's the 3rd month of spring... we are moving into the wet season.
        Water restrictions will, with luck, come off and hopefully the rain will be spread out and not cause too much flooding.
        You will probably have noticed over the past few years we are flipflopping from drought to flood within a few hundred kilometres on a regular basis.
        We need a bit of a socialised water supply to even things out whilst leaving something in the rivers.
        Weather change we can believe in!
RE: If you need such "display routines" to confirm personal patriotism, then so be it... - Cleantimestream 04:54:05 11/07/09 (0)
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
- Mark Twain, Notebook, 1904
"The Sound of One Hand Clapping is Crashing by Design" HKM

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