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I may have used a bit too much fluid but I'll get the hang of it. I want a more controllable squirt bottle with finer flow. This was a one-step cleaning. I plan to buy some deionized water for rinse next time.
What do you think? Am I doing anything grossly wrong? Video link below. Thanks.
Follow Ups:
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Hi, you might glean some tips from the DiscDoctor instructions for using a RCM.
My tips;
1)The vacuum wand can easily do more damage than good if you allow debris to accumulate on the underside. After every two sides or so I pick up the tube and brush it off against my shirt (assuming it's the typical soft cotton polo and clean).
2)Pick up spare arm tube as well and alternate them, particularly using one for very dirty records and the other for most fairly clean records.
3)Clean the applicator brush (the one supplied by VPI with the RCM) every once in a while. The bristle ends eventually get clogged with a sludge of dust and fluid.
4)Pick up a record cleaning pad from Disc Doctor and apply the pad towards the end of the vacumm process. This helps pick up fine dust not picked up by the RCM and some of the remaining fluid.
distilled water next to the machine and swirl the brush in the bowl after every use. I eventually change out the distilled water in the bowl as well.
Cleaning the pads thoroughly on the VPI wand is not easy to me, and this is one area where the Nitty Gritty machines have an big advantage.
Cleaning the vacuum wand on the 16.5 is no harder than the way you clean your brushes. Hard to say when the wand needs cleaning in any instance, due to the variety of filth found on records, but when I start seeing a small line of crud on one of the protective strips, I simply take the wand over to the sink, rinse with tap water, do a final rinse with distilled, pat dry with a paper towel, and back on the machine it goes.
No time is wasted, as I'll do this while I'm letting a cleaner soak-sit on the record.
IMO, I don't feel it is quite so critical to have to rinse clean the wand with ultra high purity rinse waters. Firstly, I don't like seeing such waters like AIVS Pure Water Rinse just going down the drain, and second, the next time that wand is used, it again is going back onto another dirty record.
I, like many others, dedicate a entire seperate vacuum wand assembly for the rinse step only. This, IMO is an advantage that the nitty gritty cannot do. Takes two seconds to swap out
While I have not yet used, or seen one, I understand VPI now markets a Delrin Vacuum Wand for all their machines. I haven't read about any various sizes, just one, for LPs. Comes with a lifetime warrantee against breakage, and is no doubt the last Wand one would ever have to buy.
In a conversation with Mike at VPI, I had suggested that they maybe could now also come out with replaceable protective strips for all their wands, and Mike said they will seriously consider such for the future.
Mark
It took you less time to clean one side than it does for me to just vacuum the fluid away.
___
If it really were "all about the music," we'd just use iPods and be done with it.
I've found that the best RCM results are obtained when you proceed as though you don't have the machine.RCMs don't clean records. The fluids and brushes do all the work.
If the dirt isn't first worked into solution, no amount of vacuuming will remove it. Once it's in solution, repeated (R.O., deionized or distilled) water rinsing will take care of the rest as well as any vacuum. It just takes a few extra minutes per side.
The RCM should be treated as an optional time saver that can be used to shorten the repetitious water rinse cycle, but if you can't thoroughly clean an LP without an RCM, there's a very good chance that it won't be clean with the machine.
FWIW, I use roughly 1/20 as much fluid as you did in the video. Five or six drops of properly diluted DD fluid on a slightly damp DD brush are all it takes for the majority of used LPs I encounter.
Edits: 03/07/11 03/07/11
.
Something else that I do differently is to initially spread the fluid during one or two rotations. I then stop the machine and gently scrub one quarter of the record with a back and forth motion. I continue this start and stop with brushing until one full revolution. After cleaning both sides in this way and vacuuming, I proceed with a rinse cycle using the same procedure. I may someday break my on-off switch, but I feel that cleaning is more complete with this procedure.
Opus 104
Good lord. That doesn't sound right. Is that really how much those things cost? I noticed these ones which use a different type of plastic for much, much less than that. Not picking on you by any means, that just sounds crazy to me.
for two bottles, and I even thought that was expensive. However, my little city no longer has a laboratory supplies store, so I had to order on-line.
Okay Fred, do your thing . . . . Ha!
But I found some other similar wash bottles. What happens sometimes is a particular product is no longer available and it somehow gets incorrectly and ridiculously priced on Amazon.
I took note of some of your suggestions and I'm getting better results.
I leave the record stationary now as I apply the fluid. I'm also using the brush mostly to spread the fluid over the record rather than scrub it. And finally, I'm not letting the vacuum run for more than 2 or 3 revolutions.
I still need to get another brush, a more controllable squirt bottle, some sleeves, and maybe deionized water.
I know it's not rocket science and even with my little mistakes along the way, the records are significantly more clean than I've ever been able to get them before. And they sound pretty good too!
Thanks for your help!
ear protection.Other than that, the process will become very natural in no time. Do you notice a difference in playback? My diy rcm made a big difference. Congratz on the new component!
Edits: 03/07/11
...I've always applied the fluid while the record is stopped. I apply it in a straight line across the record, then place my brush (pre-moistened) behind the line and then turn the machine on.
Works for me, but since no one else mentioned it, maybe I'm alone on that.
Anyhow, enjoy it Abe. A very worthwhile investment that will make listening more enjoyable.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Dean
Agreed, I only apply enough solvent to maintain an elongated puddle in front of my CF Brush as the LP moves, and I've found that every bit as effective
as literally flooding the side, and I'm extremely leery of any solvent that
spreads itself across the record surface as it's essentially gelded as far as it's ability to actually lift and suspend effectively with it's surface tension diffused, but apparently many folks feel if it'doesn't flow across the record then the solvent is ineffective.
Regards Ferd
...push the puddle.
The fluid reacts differently on different records. On most I just push the puddle, but on some it spreads out and floods the record, even though my process is identical.
Never figured out why that is but always assumed it had something to do with the surface of the record and what it may have previously been cleaned with.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Nitty Gritty Pure 2, an alcohol based cleaner, spreads over the LP surface easily. I've found both to work well.
Opus 104
Each to his own, but I remain leery of alcohol based solvents as to
the possibility of the alcohol leeching out the accumulated Vinyl Plasticizers and lubricants leaving a drier groove and subsequent increased record and stylus wear.
Regards Ferd
a record probably once in my lifetime. I am thinking that this one time good cleaning with 5% alcohol will probably not harm the record. If I were to go crazy and wash the record frequently with alcohol, then I probably would cause damage.
One of Disc Doctor's cleaning fluids does use n-propanol(see Stereophile March 1997, pg. 61), and evidently one of Nitty Gritty's fluids also contains alcohol.
I also use sporicidin enzyme(pic) before any other record cleaning fluid, if I feel that the surface indicates mildew growth. Hard to tell though, so I usually treat very dirty records with enzyme all the time.
IIRC, Pure 2 is only 5% alcohol. Doubt Nitty Gritty would sell a cleaner that damaged LPs.
Opus 104
There are also many different forms of alcohol and you're right 5% isn't much
Regards Ferd
.
First, congratulations on the 16.5, Abe!
Some observations...
1. I use a little less fluid than you. You'll get the feel for it, but I try to use just enough to wet the entire surface of the record, and no more. Any time I get that extra fluid in the lower LH corner (as you did) I know I've used too much.
2. You may find that really grungy records will require a two step process, and you may want to invest in a second brush. (And don't forget to label them!)
3. Yes, too much drying may result in excess static electricity on the LP, but I've found that to be dependent on the relative humidity in the space. I keep my Zerostat next to my 16.5, and I use it before I remove the LP from the machine.
4. When the vacuum noise becomes an issue, or when the motor overheats and doesn't spin (both common occurrences), the archives have some good tips.
5. Be careful when closing the lid so that you don't overstress the vacuum wand and cause it to break (ask me how I know about this sometime). (And why they can't make the wand lower, or the sides of the unit higher, so that the lid doesn't hit the wand, is beyond me). If I'm going to leave the wand in place (if it's relatively dry/I've only cleaned an LP or two) I push mine down a bit just as I'm closing the lid, otherwise I remove it from the machine entirely.
6. Enjoy!
Jim
Congrats on the purchase Abe.I didn't seem to notice too much fluid being applied when I watched, but I notice you have AIVS cleaners on hand.
I did note that the VPI fluid seemed a bit ineffective of sheeting on the record, and that is typical. If you have the AIVS enzymatic, or AIVS #15, it will be better to start with those cleaners first.
In fact after you see-hear how well the AIVS goods work, you probably won't ever use the VPI Cleaner.
Apply those cleaners, and fully cover the record's surface. then once that is done, give those cleaners a few minutes to work first, and then begin a mild scrub routine, without any undue pressure placed upon the record. Then vacuum, and go to the next step.
During initial steps, you don;t have to knock yourself out with removal of fluids. It will be the very last step that will be important.
As others have said, two revolutions should do it. Make sure you always keep that hose clamp shut while using the machine.
The large bottles are a bit of a pain to deal with over the machine.
If you have a Sally Beauty Supply, or other beauty supply store in your area, they will carry smaller suitable plastic bottles to dispense your cleaners from. I got some with the snap cap on top, and they are fine. About a $1.30 each. Mark
Edits: 03/07/11
I use Disc Doctor brush that I put about 4 or 5 drops of the DD fluid and scrub back and forth vigorously. One revolution of vac and then I put a liberal amount of distilled H2O for a rinse with one revolution for vac. Usually a one time cleaning is enough. It usually takes one play or two before record really sounds quiet. The salesman I bought the VPI RCM from also scrubbed vigorously.
If your record is cleaned properly it should play quiet on the first play. Does your stylus have any crud on it after you play a record after cleaning?
I do it all in the name of music!!!
I don't find that to be the case, at least not if I'm running a fine line stylus and particularly with records a PO has previously cleaned with DIY solvents where much or even most of the films and some particulates were never lifted and removed but rather combined to form a more resistant matrix lower in the groove where it may take 2 or even three subsequent plays for the stylus to abrade and dredge out all those vestiges, another inmate I think A#1 referred to this as "knocking out the rocks and burnishing the groove" and why I've always felt a post play CF Brushing to whisk off that crap is essential.Regards Ferd
Edits: 03/07/11
That is why good brushes are needed to work the solvent into the grooves and loosen any debris that is there...once the brushes and solution has had a chance to do their jobs a rinse and suction should remove all the crud and or film from the grooves. If there is film and particulates left on the record or in the grooves, then the record was not properly cleaned. I have a fine line Ortofon OM30 and I manually clean my records and I scrub vigorously and rinse twice and I have no such issues.
I do it all in the name of music!!!
I've found the vigorous (ruba dub dub)scrubbing thing is ultimately a fairly destructive and counterproductive process, and I hardly think I'm alone in that understanding, I'm fairly certain Brian Wetzel(RRL)Doug Deacon and others in the know feel the same way.
Regards Ferd
others in the know disagree with others in the know. From the DD instructions: "For more effective cleaning, over 30 sec, Gently scrub 1/3 of the groove at a time, with a back & forth motion and then remove fluid." The key word may be gently. My point is that there are obviously many methods that work for cleaning vinyl. Maybe there isn't just one way and maybe it isn't really rocket science.
Agreed, I think the operand term there is "Gently", I personally would never even consider engaging in any sort of vigorous scrubbing unless the LP has already undergone a wet clean/ vac. cycle and had the abrasives component removed, even then I'm skeptical of the value of scrubbing
but I'm fairly certain the the DD Solvents and the RRL I primarily use
have their differences.
Regards Ferd
I now use RRL cleaners with the DD brushes. I prefer the RRL fluids, but either works. The DD brushes actually feel like they get down into the grooves in that they tend to follow the circular path. I may be fooling myself about the bristles actually getting into the grooves, but they do follow the grooves.
If a record is filthy, I hand wash it in the sink running plain tap water over it and gently spong the majority of the grime away prior to using my method. I agree that I wouldn't scrub a filthy record with the DD brushs if grit were present. I also wouldn't want to contaminate my brushes or the felt on the pick up tube with filth. The difference in the condition of different records calls for different steps and techniques.
I still use my old Watts record cleaning brushes for some of my cleaning steps. I always thought the Watt's brush was in the groove by way the brush was grabbed while brushing. However, the Disc Doctor/MoFi brushes are grabbed by the grooves with even more force than the Watt's brush even when gently brushing.
I also pre-wash my dirtiest records just as you do by brushing the record with a soft, 3 inch, nylon, paint brush under running water from the kitchen sink faucet. I then pour distilled water over the pre-washed record and let the record dry in a 60's record rack(pic). I protect the record label during this pre-wash with the Groovmaster Label Protector(pic).
I also use the DD type pads as well as the CF Brush depending on the record/ job at hand or the mood I'm in, if I'm just doing a few records I avoid the pads as it takes a fair amount of solvent to dampen them.I've also heard the Listener select Osage Brush is reputed to be excellent just haven't gotten around to trying one yet.
I've also heard the actual AQ CF brushes are reputed to use some sort of a Lacquer on the CF Bristles which supposedly eventually breaks down and contaminates the subsequent records it used on after that, some forks say it requires re-cleaning those records, go figure.
At any rate I now just use the cheaper knock off AQ type CF Brushes as apparently they don't use the lacquer AQ does.Regards Ferd
Edits: 03/07/11
That is what I do and I believe were the instructions that came with my DD brushes years ago. Scrub lightly with back and forth motions - RCM off, then vacuum. I use one brush for cleaning fluid and a separate one for the rinse.
on the brush to spread the fluid over the LP surface. In other words, light pressure is all that's needed. Also, Rick W is correct on vacuuming. 2-3 revolutions is sufficient to pick up the solution. More than that can induce static, especially in dry, winter conditions. You will soon realize that a vacuum RCM should hae been one of your first major equipment purchases. I certainly did in 1981 when I bought my first one.
Opus 104
Most record cleaners recommend applying the cleaning fluid to the brush and not directly to the surface of the record. To do that you will need something like this.
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73897
Nitty Gritty recommends either method of applying fluid either to the brush or to the record.
Many folks here also suggest spreading the fluid on the record and letting it soak for a couple minutes before starting the brushing sequence. This makes common sense to me just from my experiences letting some dishes soak in the sink, if they have food that really adheres to the plate.
I've been spreading some home brew cleaning fluids on my used 50 cent or $1 vinyl lately, letting it soak (couple of minutes) with good results.
My best vinyl gets cleaned with premium fluids.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
-- Albert Einstein
That is about how much fluid I use, and that is how it looks.
Perhaps I am more ambidexterous than some, but I keep my brushes and fluids on the left side of the RCM, since I apply the fluid and brushes with my left wrist braced on the left edge of the RCM, similar to where your wrist was with the brace. Just a bit of ergonomics there. I change the vacuum pick up tubes, and run the switches with my right hand.
Grats on the purchase, you will never look at a used record the same.
Abe
I've never used the VPI fluid, but with Audio Intelligent or RRL etc.
less fluid works just as effectively, and the same goes for the brush pressure with the RRL I use a CF Brush and apply little or no pressure
as the point is to get the solvent deep in the groove, scrubbing / pressure is unnecessary or even undesirable.
Beyond that my only suggestion would be to find a Mpingo Wood clamp to
replace the stock VPI one for added subtle nuance ;-)
Congratulations on a cool new toy, your collection will thank you.
Regards Ferd
Serious grunge should already have been cleaned off the record prior to using the 16.5. The brush is really just to spread the liquid. No need for pressure or angling the brush.
It also seemed to me that you had the vacuum on kinda long. 3 revolutions is enough with my 16.5. Sometimes longer imparts static.
Anyway, congrats! A 16.5 is a wise investment. Happy spinning.
I'm no expert - simply following what my record store guy showed me, but that's pretty much what I do. Can't see how much pressure you're putting on the brush, but I vary mine. Maybe a little bit more pressure and a few more revs on a very dirty record, but never so much I feel like I might damage the record.
I also keep a dry cloth nearby to wipe any splashes off the label, then, as suggested here, put the record into a new plastic inner sleeve.
Some people suggest an extra mat for the first go when the other side is dirty, then remove once the newly cleaned side is down.
Welcome to the club - it has changed my life and the kinds of records I will now pick up.
"The overall bestselling vinyl album in 2010 was the Beatles' Abbey Road — which of course was originally released in 1969." - Rolling Stone
Abe I started out with the VPI brush, tried Nitty Gritty brushes and now use Last applicators. I found that with the Last applicators it requires a lot less fluid to moisten the applicator and secondly I end up useing less fluid on the record and it is rare now that I have any spillage useing this method. I can't say if there is any real difference but I felt that the VPI brush bristles might be harsher than needed and the Last applicators are a much softer material. I also purchased a second VPI wand to use with the AIVS pure water rinse, I use the AIVS three step fluids and I'm very pleased with the results.
I use the AIVS system too with a dose of OLLY's as a first step sometimes. One thing that SEEMS to make a difference is the height of the suction wand over the record. I have mine set so they just don't touch the record. Fluid removal is still excellent but I am noticing less needle contamination as well as reduced clicks/pops during even the first playback. Maybe less contamination? I have a different VPI brush and wand for each step. 5 wands/brushes in all but my results are very good.
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