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I recently sold my Koetsu Rosewood Signature on audiogon and just got a troubling email from the new owner.
His complaints are that:
1) No mounting hardware
2) Brush marks on bottom of cartridge from stylus "many" cleanings
3) Two different screws secured it in the Koetsu box
4) No paperwork is included
5) His dynavector cartridge sounds "newer"
I pictured everything included in my sale but accidentally listed "no box or manual included" under audiogon. He wanted it even without a box and made me an offer of $200 less than asking for the reason that I didn't have an original box. This was cleared up that I did in fact have the box pictured in the sale...
There were some brush marks under the cartridge, but that is normal for a cartridge with ~300 hours and not something I hid from him.
I did use two different screws to mount it in the box which got it to him safely... Yes one was silver and one was slightly darker, but I mean, come on--they weren't Koetsu specific, they're 10 cent screws!
No paper work was included, but it wasn't promised and I'm not even sure what Koetsu bundles. I bought this from a widow, and she gave me everything pertaining to the cartridge she could locate from her late husband.
He has a Dynavector XV-1S and says it sounds "newer". The two cartridges are on such polar ends of the sonic spectrum that I don't even know what this means.
He wants his money back, but I feel like his reasons are silly. Not to mention I spent the money replacing the cartridge. If he said "you promised me X and delivered Y" it would be one thing, but under these circumstances, I don't want to refund him anything.
At the same time, I have perfect feedback and don't want to jeopardize over something irrational.
Follow Ups:
A lot of people took interest in this thread, so I figured I'd let you guys know how it played out.
I'm a pushover. I know I didn't have to and from the bulk of the opinions here, I probably shouldn't have, but I offered him a partial refund of $250 in the event a SoundSmith retip should become necessary and he accepted and we will part as friends.
The principal of the matter wasn't worth potentially tainting my feedback. Especially now while I'm rolling cartridges to try and find a winner.
Thanks for the input guys.
I would bet between $25 to $50 max
My opinion of you, (for what it is worth), has truly gone downhill because of all this. You used to seem to be a fairly nice person, who had some legitimate points to make about audio equipment and music in general. Now, I am not so sure you are a nice person. (And because of that, your opinions will mean less to me.)
You seem to be nagging at this guy for selling a secondhand cartridge, who is in a dispute with a buyer. (He even went out of his way to try to see if he was in the wrong, by posting about it here - and most of us seem to think he is in the right, albeit not you and a few others.)
You certainly have a right to an opinion, and you've expressed it, multiple times in fact. You seem to be going way overboard in trying to attack this guy for whatever reason. (Do you have a reason? Are you the buyer? Do you think he took advantage of the widow? I'd like to know why you are hounding him so much.)
Just thought you should know that you are doing yourself no favor in pursuing this matter to this extent, at least IMHO.
I never worry about others opinions. I do and am who i am, a smarmy witch!!!
Who has my Red Shoes? And where is that DOG?
Whatever someone thinks of me.. that opinion is certainly wrong. Opinions are based on tiny unrelated bits of information that usually represent only a tiny fraction of the truth. Other folks use these opinions to limit the scope of the reality around them, to 'pidgeonhole' their thoughts into bite size, digestable chunks they can be snug and happy with.
Some folks spend thier entire lives cultivating a "persona" (the opinion they have of themselves they want the world to think of them).
I do not. i just do whatever the hell I do. And i could care less what you, or anyone "THINKS" of me. I HOPE you DO think 'less' of me.. Damn I am a ratty smelly bitch, who can write a mean note, and make a few "witty" remarks. If you think I am some sort of professional nice person.. HAH you are F%*kin' crazy.!
nt
.
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
.
Regards,
Todd
The examples Audiogon uses to help determine ratings include those for Electronics, Speakers, and Turntable [sic] but it's not clear how they would be applied to a cartridge. In the case of a rating of 8/10:
8/10 - Very good - Perfect front face, 1 minor flaw on top or side is acceptable.
This item has seen some use, but still appears perfect from the front .
Electronics may have 1 or 2 minor scratches (max 1/2" long, very thin) on the top plate or the sides of electronics, but again, the front must be perfect.
So if the Koetsu Rosewood Signature in question does have a perfect front face with only minor scratches on the sides and works normally otherwise, than the rating makes sense. Sort of. Seems that there should be a category for Phono Cartridges to better describe their condition and rating.
Tom
I am puzzled that there are significant brush marks at the bottom, which may bring in question number of hours and force someone used to clean it. You statement as being perfect is not fortunate, if you rated something as 8/10. But at the same time it is rated 8/10 so that is what he got. Did he send you picture of brush marks?
In any case what you could offer is to tell him to send it to Soundsmith for checkup.
-If they find it damaged you refund the money, pay for the checkup and take cartridge back.
-If they find it NOT damaged but stylus worn, you pay for the checkup and offer to either take cartridge back or work with buyer on re-tip cost .
-If they find it is good with normal wear, he pays for the checkups and gets the cartridge.
If he refuses the above, he has no case, except it is obvious that he has case of "buyers remorse".
which is perfectly understandable, since he already has a better cartidge, and downgraded, (for whatever reason), to a cartridge that is not as good as what he already has. (Perhaps he wanted a backup or he broke his Dynavector and was hoping the Koetsu was an over-achiever.)
(FYI, the statement made above regarding the relative merits of each cartridge are based upon my own experience, since I used to own the Koestu Rosewood Signature, and now own the Dynavector XV-1S.)
Regarding the points raised by the buyer:
1) No mounting hardware.
Koetsu does not supply any.
2) Brush marks on bottom of cartridge from stylus "many" cleanings.
True, the cartridge is not perfect, but with 300 hours on it, and being that you are the second owner, and brush marks will NOT affect the sound, this should not be relevant. (And since the brush marks are on the bottom, nobody will see them.)
3) Two different screws secured it in the Koetsu box.
As long as it was securely fastened to the box, this should not matter.
4) No paperwork is included.
Koetsu does not provide any paper work.
(I've bought new a Koetsu, and there is none.)
5) His dynavector cartridge sounds "newer".
It is not that it sounds newer, it is that it sounds better, (IMHO anyway - see above.) The XV-1S retails for $5250 and the Rosewood Signature retails for $3,700. Why would the buyer expect it to sound better?
As far as I can see, you sold a second hand cartridge, and it works fine.
(The fact that it might be difficult to mount is Koetsu's fault, not yours. He is supposed to research that and know that in advance.)
And as far as Viridian calling you a liar, don't worry about that either. He is an idiot, and the words of an idiot mean nothing.
Thanks for taking the time to break things down for me. I will let him know that the 'missing items' are not actually missing.
He really doesn't seem too concerned over the brush marks--it was just a qualm. He wrote me today and was a lot more rationale and cool headed in his last email and agreed to spend some time trying to get it sounding right next weekend.
I think his gripe is with inner grove distortion he's getting. He's using a tone arm which is probably too light (Graham 2.2) with a really low compliance cartridge. I had a similar mismatch in my setup and had to really pile on the dampening on my tone arm to make it sound right, but even so this wasn't optimal and the signature ultimately wasn't for me.
No problem, and glad to be of assistance.
Hey, you should let him know that the Rosewood signature likes to have about 1.9 - 2.0 grams of VTF. I seem to recall that it also liked to have the tail down just slightly, for the VTA. (But it has been a few years since I had that cartridge, so I could be mistaken.)
Also, he should know that while the treble response is pretty well extended and refined, but it is not quite as refined, and especially not nearly as well extended as a Dynavector XV-1S. (But it is enjoyable nonetheless, and a pretty decent treble response all in all.)
The Mid-range is very lush, and if you like the Koetsu sound, is tough to give up. (I like it myself, and while I liked the mid-range of cartridges such as the Benz Micro Glider and the Shelter 90X, the Koetsu had a mid-range that was truly enjoyable. It just plain makes music! The Dynavector XV-1S has a great mid-range, but it is not lush either.)
However, the bass response is probably where he is having the most trouble with the Koetsu. The Koetsu bass response is adequate, but not great by any means. It tends to be somewhat loose, and not real deep either. (It is the weak point of all the Koetsu cartridges, especially the non-platinum ones, IMHO.) If he desires great bass response, he'll need to look elsewhere. (Shelter has great bass response and is a better bang for the buck than the Koetsu, or even the Dynavector. Its weak point is the noise floor is not Koetsu, or Dynavector, deep and dark. The XV-1S has a great bass response too.)
The sound staging and imaging of the Koetsu was very, very good, and close enough to the XV-1S that it should not be the major problem he is having.
I truly think the problem he is having is that he is comparing the Rosewood Signature, a very good cartridge, to the XV-1S, a great cartridge, (I would give the Rosewood Signature a Stereophile grade of a "B+", whereas the XV-1S cartridge is a solid "A", (and maybe even an "A+".) The Dynavector XV-1S is the best cartridge I have ever heard, and while I have heard some that sound nearly as good, (for double the money), none have really surpassed it, IMHO.
BTW, if he would like some help in setting up the Koetsu, feel free to contact me, and I will give you my email address, and I'd be glad to help him out. (Or, better yet, have him contact Brian Hartsell, at The Analog Room, (a stereo store in San Jose, California - (408) 971-6158
), as he is the Koetsu guru of the U.S.A., IMHO anyway.
Good Luck!
I wrote to him asking him to spend a bit more time trying to dial it in and even if he doesn't like its sound, once he has verified it operates as it should, that he can re-sell it with a clear conscience.
He replied to my email sounding a lot more agreeable:
"I admit I was a very frustrated yesterday but I don't understand why it started out sounding ok on saturday after I first installed it and yesterday the more I played it the worst it sounded. The last record I played I couldn't stand listening to the end of it becuase it sounded so bad."
This I find confusing too. I don't see how it goes from being set up and sounding as it should to sounding poor 24 hours later unless SOME variable changed in that time. I also wasn't present to cause that change... whatever it may have been.
nt
Did you first check to see if his pants were on fire before you went this far?
...the buyer is not the "liar" ...not that I am calling him one as we don't have enough information to be throwing that word around in the first place.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it
Edits: 03/29/10
in his post above says, "There were some brush marks under the cartridge, but that is normal for a cartridge with ~300 hours and not something I hid from him." Both are mutually exclusive.Additionally, when I asked him about how he rated the cartridge, further down the page, he said, "here is the meat of the ad..", and proceded to leave out that sentence.
He called his integrity into question by his own posts.
This does not preclude the possibility that the buyer is a liar, or that he is just unhappy with what is a functioning cartridge.
Edits: 03/29/10 03/29/10
It indeed sounds perfectly and I didn't even recall the brush marks on it as they were invisible when mounted and never stuck out in my memory as anything significant.
I added that comment because my photos made the cartridge appeared very dark, almost ebony colored which didn't look right.
Your attack on my integrity is rude and uncalled for.
If it was represented accurately.
This is yet another example of neurotic audiophile cheapness.
Sorry, but if you want new and perfect and return privileges, BUY NEW FROM A DEALER YOU TRUST!!!!
I have many transactions on A-Gon, I have never expected anything to be perfect, but everything has worked fine.
I'd tell him to get it setup from a professional, if he doesn't like it, sell it, and move on....
Brush marks on bottom of cartridge? Two different screws holding it in the box? That's just stupid.
I suspect the guy is an asshat and just doesn't like the cartridge as well as he thought he would, or he regrets spending the money.
He should keep the cartridge and you should keep the money & sleep well. If he doesn't want it he can always re-sell it.
Cheers,
Bobbo :-)
If the cartridge works perfectly then as far as I can see that is all that matters.
I hope you enjoy your new purchase.
BH
Audiogon basically states that unless "both parties" agree to leave negative feedback, that none will be left.
(Yeah, like that is going to happen!)
This is one of the few areas that Ebay is superior to Audiogon, IMHO.
Keep the money and move on.
I read the responses and it still comes down to whether you want to have this problem hanging over your head. Sometimes is is a more direct solution to just bite the bullitt and take the dammed thing back.
You cannot predict how reasonable, experienced or what expectations a buyer may have. For whatever reasons you have found what looks like an unreasonable person who is no longer interested in the cartridge.
As such they have no hesitation about claiming their money should be refunded and could possibly be making up problems to force their position. If you stick to your guns you could win but would it feel like a win to you?
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
my take is pretty simple. He has the cart, you have the money, the worst that can happen now is negative feedback (for both as you have this option too). If it's the only negative among all the rest positive, it will have ZERO effect on future transactions. If what you did was fair and appropriate, move on.
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
Being 'impartial" ?? I have to say it can go either way. i have put in my two cents in on a lot of Audiogon disputes.. and hearing what you have to say, and seeing the ad. I just have to side with one of you
Clearly the guy is straight up disapointed. He was READING YOUR WORDS, not the numerical rating. When you said perfect, he assumed perfect. 'OK, so the 8/10 means it is not perfect. You're covered.
The quibbles..?? You clearly say the cart was a bitch to set up. he does not like the sound (and I would guess is not willing to shower loving attention on setting it up.) he has made up his mind that HE GOT SCREWED. He was UNAWARE that it was a bitch to dial in. YOU KNEW it was a bitch to dial in, but did not say so. (perhaps legally you are not required to tell your experience with the cart, but an expensive device like this one.. ?Is it normal? to have a lot of trouble?
For that reason alone, I would say give him his money back. If it was not your intention to mislead him, then HIS lacking your knowledge that the particular cart you sold him would be HARD to set up, was YOUR mistake.
============================
Put yourself in his shoes. He buys an expensive cart that is supposed to be a gem. He gets it.. grumbles it's NOT as spiffy as he imagined a $3000. cart should be that is called LIKE NEW,(EVEN THOUGH THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE) then mounts it and it sucks.(THIS IS THE ISSUE: YOU KNEW IT WAS VERY HARD TO DIAL IN, AND DID NOT TELL IN THE AD) MAN I would be screaming bloody murder.
IMO this is what i would write if it came up as an AudiogoN dispute. I would have to vote 100% in favor of the buyer to refund the money and take back the cart.
Very sorry.
If I were you, I would send him this whole post, tell him you are sorry you did not mention the difficulty dialinng in the cart. That he should try more, but if he does not want to because he is soured on it, you WILL take it back.
My $0.02 paid in full.
Elizabeth, I agree with you.
Back in the pre-internet days of Walt Bender and Lennice Werth's Audiomart (think eBay for high end audio, with listings typed on a typewriter, photo-copied, and sent out through the mail) they had a simple policy: the buyer will be satisfied or the deal gets un-done.
I think that's still a good way to operate, even though it puts sellers at the mercy of buyers who don't read carefully, don't know what they're doing, or are just plain flakes.
I'd take it back, mix myself a Hendrick's martini to soften the annoyance, and move on. The odds are pretty good that the next buyer will just love the cartridge, and who knows - (s)he might even become a friend.
WW
There is NO substitute for the live performance.
nt
yes.
nt
I had a difficult time setting it up due to a few factors:
1) compliance mis match for my tone arm which required me to pile on dampening
2) very finichy old fashion well tempered arm is difficult as hell to work with
3) limited experience in setup
Through the guidance of fellow asylumers I stayed patient and got it running properly.
I don't see what I was supposed to 'disclose' there.
I have no quibbles with you wanting to disagree with my call. I just tried to weigh the issues, and saw one point i felt was not brought up between the two of you, that could sway the balance. If a cartridge (I have never owned a more than 1K expensive cart) of this caliber is usually hard, difficult, 'a bitch' to set up, and the buyer 'should have known' it was difficult to set up, then I apologize. But I think normally a cart is just a cart, and normal setup should be good.
Disclosure is needed in any transaction.
In housing , for example, most states have laws that full disclosure is manditory, and if a problem existed, and not disclosed, the seller is fully liable. This tough law is because homes cost hundreds of thousands, and hiding a $50,0000 flaw needs redress.
Here we are dealing with a far smaller amount. But I think it has a bearing. Again, if your judgement differs, you are perfectly free to ignore my advice. i would just mention then that it then is clear (to me) you have no intenton of refunding the dudes money and taking back the cartride. You were just looking for validation of you desire to keep the money, and get approval from your peers.
I don't see your analogy as to real property disclosures as applicable here. We aren't talking about latent defects in a product, we're talking about something that was difficult for me to setup, but was ultimately set up fine.
Also don't forget any lawyer worth a crap advises his clients to make no such disclosures when selling a property and to simply look at the 'penalty' as a transactional cost. In NY its $500.
As for your statement: "You were just looking for validation of you desire to keep the money, and get approval from your peers."
I do desire to keep the money--actually to speak correctly, the money was already spent replacing the cartridge I sold. My feeling is that I did nothing wrong and do not want to refund anything. I'm not an assh*le peddling broken gear, but I don't want to soil my feedback on principal alone as I buy and sell a lot.
i guess in Ney York you just go with the money, and the truth can go to hell. Stating you just go with such legal advice ("it only costs $500. and the lawyers say ..hide it')( paraphrased) because you can save a bundle of money.. is one more reason to question your motives.
I'm stating I am an attorney and I advise my clients against making representations with potentially significant consequences.
I don't say this often, but I really don't like you.
..
.
I always read your posts with the anticipation I'll learn something worthwhile and new. I have a question or two about the housing analogy. Full disclosure laws are aimed at building flaws (which you mentioned) which affect livability or safety. I don't see how a couple of scratches on the bottom of the cart qualifies as a flaw affecting performance. Also, if I'm looking to buy a previously lived in house, unless stated by the current owners that it has a number of new upgrades such as paint, I'd assume some maintenance might be needed. If the same seller doesn't mention that the rooms are kinda small and that the king-size bed, two dressers and three chairs I own might not fit comfortably in a bedroom, are they being dishonest?
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
If the previous owner knew it was hard to use the product, (more so than usual) it goes to fitness, as the new owner will now have a product that is hard to use, and will either have to lie about it when selling it, and face the same gauntlet as the current seller, or tell the truth and have the product be greatly devalued.
So I think the current owner has a case for the product being not as advertised.
As for your rooms example, that is a red herring case. i think it would be more in the line difficulty in setting up disclosure: When the owner calls set up a bitch, he discloses that to us.. he did not disclose that to the buyer in the ad.
A proper analogy for the house would be say the garage door is extremely hard to use, taking hours to enter or exit via this door. finding that the door is nearly impossible to set correctly, and theprior owner knew this, the buyer would sue.
If it takes you hours to exit your garage, it's not an undisclosed character flaw...the door is BROKEN. No one has indicated there's anything mechanically defective with this cart.
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
...as this is stuff folks already know.
Some speakers can be a bitch to dial in and simply will not work their best in some rooms. Some amps can't be paired with some speakers. Some carts don't work well on some arms. Some arms don't work well on certain tables. Some tables don't work well on certain stands. There are no guarantees that what you buy is going to work to your satisfaction and be wholly synergistic with your system, even if the item is in absolute perfect working order.
This is one of the reasons Audiogon exists ...because lots of folks end up with stuff that didn't work for them as well as they would have liked.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom : Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it
The difference is in whether we are engaged in a kind of trickery, where we can say just enough to sell the item, OR, are we engaged in a hobby, where we are selling items to fellow hobbyists whom we want to be happy with the product we are selling.
If the first type of sale, then of course we do not have to say anything beyond the absolute minimum. If we are doing the seond, then it behooves us to be as accurate and informative as possible.
I respectfully disagree.
I just googled "Koetsu Rosewood Signature", and read the first three results. The Stereophile review, Needle Doctor site, and the 10 Audio review. In neither review, nor on the Needle Doctor sales page does it say anything about "the cart [sic] was a bitch to set up". Both reviews rave about the sound quality though.
I've never been able to afford to drop this kind of coin on a cartridge. I have read enough magazine reviews and Asylum posts to understand that almost any expensive cartridge isn't a Kenner close-'n-play. It's going to take a quality arm and a lot of dialing in to get it to perform its best.
If Needle Doctor is selling this cartridge for a list price of $3700 and makes no mention of difficulty of set-up, why should Gopher2K or any Audiogon seller, for that matter, be held to a higher standard? The necessity for precise set-up is a given, and is no reason to expect a refund.
Just a heads up, in case you don't know. If you want to jump in head first, you should check the depth you are jumping into.. it saves getting bruises...
The actual comment from the seller comes in the section below
========================================================================
He responded to my email now he says it's dirstoring (sic) Gopher2K18:06:47
=====================================
It sounds as if Fred J18:25:03
================================
Well he says Gopher2K18:28:36
=================================
In the lines of "Well he says"
"I'll admit I had a bitch of a time setting the cartridge up"
Did you bother to actually read these posts?
Instead of jumping on me, you might be less embarassed right about now.
Your opinion is yours to have. i gave what I thought over, very carefully and reached my own conclusion. That it does not agree with you (for whatever reason, is YOUR problem, not mine. Your using all caps means "shouting" and I could give a rat's ass about your opinion because of the manner of your presentation.)
Edits: 03/29/10
Umm, that all caps "shouting" sentence was copied and pasted from YOUR post.
Or did you not bother to read what you wrote, and how you wrote it?
My point was to say that I "respectfully" disagree with your take that the seller omitted an important fact regarding this cartridge, that it takes work to make it perform at its best.
For some reason you have taken a difference of opinion as a personal attack. That certainly was not my intent.
at its best."
Which may well be a characteristic of THIS particular cartridge, but not typical of the Koetsu Rosewood in general.
Are Koetsu Rosewood cartridges know to be finicky?
On the plus side, the seller was honest to state that he was the second owner and anyone who decided to purchase the cartridge had to know there was some risk as to the original owners wife knowing exactly how many hours were on the cartridge.
Seems like about every cartridge for sale on A'Gon has either 'less than 100' or 'less than 50' hours on it!
How may here would trust their wife to evaluate the hours on any given cartridge in our vast inventories? =:-0
.
In the future, when directly quoting from posts by Elizabeth, have the common courtesy to transcribe her words to a style she finds less objectionable.
By transcribing the text from the body of the post to the header, you change the meaning of the caps.
Do you notice this, or do you just ignore such stuff?
I couldn't agree more. I'd go even further:
Note to self: Do not even think about responding to one of Elizabeth's posts.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
If it had brush marks on it, you need to refund his money, as you did not accuratly describe the cartridge..."looks and performs perfectly"
would not include anything other than a "perfectly" looking cartridge...used or not, it was not described accurately.
Rick
It's all about the music!
Edits: 03/29/10
and it's not perfect. You owe him the money
if something works as expected (works perfectly) and doesn't have any visual flaws that affect performance (such as a bent cantilever), then "perfect" is usable. "Perfect doesn't mean New".
"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
sorry, but when something is described as "looks perfect" and it has brush marks, which, then that is not an accurate description, and the Audiogon staff will side with the buyer, as they should.
I don't understand how it would have brush marks, as I have never had such on any cartridge I have owned...the brush contacts the stylus/cantilever, if pushing so hard as to scratch the bottom of the cartridge, then this is not normal either...
Rick
It's all about the music!
More than a few years ago I had a guy buy a tuner from me listed on Audiogon. Then, 10 days after he received it he called to say it was damaged in shipping.
I told him, as listed in the ad, that I was not responsible for damage during shipping. The tuner was wrapped in bubble wrap, double boxed and photographed before shipping. The item was insured for just over the purchase price. He refused to file a claim stating that they "always reject them" and insisted on shipping it back to me for "inspection".
He sent it back to me without notice after I told him I wouldn't accept it. Noticing no damage to the outer box I did accept it. There was no damage to either the inner box or outer box.
After a lengthly phone conversation he suggested I send him a refund since I had the tuner in my possession. After I flat out refused he suggested that I "repair" the tuner at my expense. The front of the tuner was smashed, with the tuning knob shaft bent and the glass broken, also the corners on the faceplate were bent.
The tuner as shipped from me was in pristine condition.
I told him that it didn't look like the damage happened in shipping and there was no damage to either box.
Finally, after weeks of dealing with this tired, lonesome loser, I simply tossed the tuner in the garbage and wrote it off as a lesson learned. Audio buyers are probably the worst kind of people to deal with, some if not most, live at home, they think you should have a Walmart return policy, are constantly looking for something better, even if they just bought from you and most suffer buyer's remorse immediately after buying something (from you).
Sold a Rawson built gainclone to a guy on the West Coast. It was single boxed, but with enough packaging material to survive the trip.
When it arrived he refused it as damaged saying it was crushed in and the whole face plate was bent due to my failure to double box.
When UPS returned it to me, one corner of the cardboard was bent so you could see slightly through a small seam. The unit inside was mint. I told my seller and he asked me to take pictures, test it and if all was right ship it back to him at my expense.
I told him I had no problem testing and taking pictures, but would not pay shipping twice when it shipped from me to him back to me without sustaining damage. He demanded his money back as the price he paid was 'shipped'.
It was a small transaction and I didn't want the headache, so I just gifted the amp to my brother, refunded the a-hole and asked him not to reply to my future ads.
First, a question. What did you numerically grade the cartridge at on the Audiogon grading scale? This would address any cosmetic issues, such as the brush marks and screws. As far as the printed insert, you said that it did not have a manual so this point is moot.
You may just want to try a preemptive strike and open an Audiogon dispute. They will dispassionately listen to both sides and make a decision. They may tell you to give him his money back, or not. If you feel comfortable in being on the right side of the transaction, this may work for you. Generally, putting it in their hands will also prevent negative feedback from being left. I have been there and was treated quite equitably.
By that I mean, doesn't the recipient of Positive or Negative feedback need to agree to the feedback received for it to be posted?
If the recipient doesn't agree to negative feedback, can't he just ignore it and it never gets posted?
This was the meat of my information:
"It was acquired by me about 5 months ago in the purchase of a true music lover's former system. The prior owner unfortunately passed away, but his widow who sold it to me informed me that he had limited time to enjoy it (health) and that it had at most around 250 hours.
I have used it for less than an additional 50 hours myself.
Its an absolutely beautiful cartridge, but I think I want to go a slightly different route."
nt
you added something else, and it annoys me when Audiogon sellers try to modify the grading in this manner; do you want to share what you added right along with the grading? (the ad is still available for viewing on Audiogon)
Apparently you're the Koetsu Rosewood Signature's buyer, no ?
What? You expected
Bill the Cat . . . Ack! Pfttt!
Elicit some very emotional responses, I'm thinking that Gopher and Viridian
should at the very least meet at sunrise on the Village green, Swords or Flintlocks, perhaps make it a tag team event with Shovelhead and Elizabeth entering the fray as well ;-)
Edits: 03/29/10
See the parties wear hundreds of small thick skinned ballons. each get a firehose. They separate, turn and fire, The one with any ballons left is allowed to live... the other is sent to a 7-11.. where they are forced to eat Little Debbie" stuff until death occurs. (Or we all run out of money).
Lethal dose of some of that Corporate artificially reprocessed stimulated faux food type products :-0When I get the munchies and fall prey to some of that stuff
I've learned to avoid reading the ingredients, as when I have, I end up sincerely wishing I'd never taken that couple of years of College chemistry ,YIKES !One of the ingredients of Baco's bacon bits is Titanium Dioxide, I actually called the companies consumer affairs 1-800 # and after an interminable period of being on hold and being switched between various departments, I ended up being informed that the Titanium Dioxide is added to make the product more crunchy ;-)
Kind Regards Ferd
Edits: 03/29/10
Gopher2K invited comment and the AudioGon listing is still there for the world to see.
The cartridge is indeed 8/10 by just about any measure, however the 8/10 would appear to be NOT limited to 'estimated' (second owner, who knows for sure?) hours but due to some minor cosmetic issues which 'perfect' would seem to NOT adequately describe.
JMHO and all that. If it were me, I'd take it back, send it off to SS for a new $350 tip and it would likely sound better than new!
you should do whatever you think is the right thing. should you choose to not refund the money then be prepared to lose your audiogon membership. i had a very similar situation a few years ago where a buyer claimed i had altered a benz micro cartridge - of course i hadnt, and when i refused to refund him they cancelled my membership - oh, and i had perfect feedback from about 100 transactions...
Were you allowed to create a new membership?
I've got like 90 positive transactions since 2003 and don't want to lose my account over crap. Were you at least given the opportunity to plead your case?
Unlikely.
In my case I was banned from A'gon for leaving negative feedback for an institutional seller who shipped me 2 demo amps after I had asked repeatedly if they were new or demo and was told "new". He took them back but I was out shipping costs both ways. Grrrrr!
No chance for appeal, all e-mails ignored.
and cares less for the little guy/gal.
They monitor the chat board and kill any threads that in the LEAST criticize one of the commercial sellers.
If you are in a dispute with someone who puts money in A'Gon's bank account, you lose!
It's automatic!
If you were less than forthcoming, offer him a refund.
-Wendell
The best comment so far (all are very, very good) has been to offer to take it back as long as it arrives in the same condition it was sent.
Or, go to the grocery store and get him one of the above items.
There is no such thing as too many records.
There is just too little room for them!
it becomes necessary. If Audiogon cancels anyones account without due process they should hear about it. Let them review the opinions here.
Regards,
Doug Olsen
A man can never have too many turntables.
Do you suppose maybe he is asking for a refund because he plans to send you a worn-out or damaged cartridge of the same model? Then he keeps your cartridge and gets his money back?
of clues from nit picking to liking the Dynavector better. Some have said it is buyers remorse, many say no refund - definitely yes and yes!
I would not offer a refund. I would suggest that he can re-sell the cartridge if he is "not happy with how it sounds". That discounts his nit picks and implies, without directly saying so, you believe he simply is just not pleased with the sound of the Koetsu. That is not your fault!!
You are not a dealer offering auditions in the home and I don't think the buyer in this case has grounds to ask to return the cartridge for a refund. He undermined his "campaign" with a list of, at best, marginal and trivial points and thus has no credible argument in my opinion.
I don't believe you have any obligation to this buyer.
Regards,
Doug Olsen
A man can never have too many turntables.
Man, that is really getting anal about things.
He was a really nice guy to talk to through the transaction and I'm not looking to "screw him" but what he says isn't my experience with it.
He is saying the cartridge is distorting and that he thinks it has more hours on it than I advertised. He seems to think it needs a rebuild internally and that it is not stylus wear that is the culprit...
I did have some difficulty dialing in the cartridge at first--some of you may remember it drove me crazy for 2 weeks, but I've been listening to it sounding perfectly w/o distortion at about 2.15grams for the last few months as I deliberated as to whether Koetsu's sound was for me or if I should buy another cartridge.
You stated you had trouble dialing it in but then you say that you set tracking force at 2.15 grams during the 5 months you owned it. Koetsu recommends 1.8-2.0 grams. You probably felt it necessary to overdue it in order to obtain better tracking but in doing so heard bloated bass and recessed upper frequency response. Koetsu's aren't the best trackers to begin (I own 2 myself) with and coupled with excessive VTF, the cartridge suspension is probably a bit more worn than the hours stated.
You're dealing with a very neurotic individual, I have a close friend like this, I don't think he's ever bought anything where he didn't come down with a case of buyers remorse.
Chances are if you tell him to return the Koetsu in the condition he received it you'll cheerfully refund his money, he'll change his mind
and want to keep it.
If you get a chance have him explain what newer cartridges actually sound like ?
Regards Ferd
it isn't the signature, but instead distortion.
I'll admit I had a bitch of a time setting the cartridge up on Well Tempered Arms, but I've been using it happily for months with all distortion dialed out tracking just a hair over the manufacturers recommended VTF.
Lets not forget that the buyer may have messed up the cart.
when he installed it. If you are confident that it was in good condition when you sent it to him. Don't have any remorse. Just tell him there was no problem till he received it. Another thing there are some people that just want to try something and if it doesn't meet there expectations they want to return it. I live in a area where there are no audio dealers. So there is no opportunity to listen to anything. When I purchase something online and I don't like it I don't blame the seller. I just sell it to someone who mite like it. That is the risk of buying online......
What cart are you using now?
I have a Sound Smith "The Voice" sitting on my coffee table that I'm deciding what to do with as its ultra high compliance rather than high.
to one with a compliance of 40x10-6cm/Dyne?
Granted the 5 might not be real as some Japanese cartridges are rated for compliance at 100 Hz...
If I understand correctly the Koetsu is a low compliance cartridge and the Well Tempered arm is quite a light arm.
Not surprised you didn't like it.
One thing I would do is save your ad or take a screen shot for future reference concerning your description. Also save all emails sent and received.
I hope that you get it worked out.
Regards,
Todd
Yep, I've got everything in gmail and I'm gonna print my page from the office tomorrow.
This crap is frustrating. I'm sitting here with this on my mind instead of enjoying my scarce time to actually listen to music on a Sunday night.
AudioGon has a 1 to 10 rating system. If you rated the catridge an 8 or less I think you're covered for the brush marks, in any case I think you are in the right. Also, AudioGon has arbitration to examine an unjustified rating. If the facts are as you say, I think even if you got a negative you have a strong case for getting it changed. Sounds like you are dealing with buyer's remorse---He doesn't like the sound in his system, but that is the risk of buying used and unheard. I don't think you should take a return or give any additional compensation. Don't forget you also have the threat of leaving a negative rating.
he got it for $200.00 less than someone would have paid?your worried about feedback in the long run it wont make much difference if you sell is my guess. I hate feedback I buy all the time & stopped messing with it years ago.
I will do it if I get an email close to the 3 months are up to post. then I guess he needs it.
I think I have 100% with 1000s of transactions. so in my case it dont matter but I dont like to sell anyway. I dont know anything about the cart but it sounds like buyers remorse using neg to get even. sorry
mch dvd-a mch sacd & blu-ray concerts rule.
I don't think any of the reasons he gave you merits a refund. I wouldn't do it.
Sounds like buyers remorse... an absolute no win!
Brian
It sounds like buyers remorse to me too. He simply doesn't like the way it sounds and wishes he had not bought it. None of his "issues" are worthy of a refund.
Don't worry about the feedback. Be polite, be respectful, but tell him no refund.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom : Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it
that the OP resolve the nit picking BS with the buyer... you know Federal Express new screws and whatever else from NeedleDoctor or where ever, just knock as many things off of his list as possible. Leave him with "i like my dynavector better"
Brian
He has mounting screws and doesn't need more...
As for the hardware, does anyone know if Koetsu includes anything? A little screwdriver or whatever?
I don't have any paper documentation and unfortunately the prior owner is deceased so I don't think retrieving anything is an option.
Not sure what else I can do.
nt
reelsmith's axiom : Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it
is number 5. He prefers the sound of another cart. I wouldn't refund anything. You are allowed to comment on negative feedback, right? I've not sold on a'gon.
What? You expected
Bill the Cat . . . Ack! Pfttt!
Some buyers don't seem to understand. When buying something used it is used not new. Some expect you to list every nick. There is such a thing as wear and tear. From the buyers perspective some sellers call a piece in great condition when it isn't. The battle goes on between buyers and sellers.....
I mean, if I advertise the cartridge as having 10 hours and it arrives with a stylus that looks like its seen a thousand hours worth of wear, that is one thing.
But to say his current Dynavector 'sounds newer' just makes no sense to me...
" But to say his current Dynavector 'sounds newer' just makes no sense to me... "
Tell him he needs to get his electrolyte balance in order, some Seriquel
perhaps ;-)
What kind of cartridge is a Seriquel? hehehe......
Rolls off just about every frequency, the only Psychiatric Cartridge
that rolls off more is the Thorazine Haldol Cocktail reference special ;-)
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