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In Reply to: RE: Tonearm for Denon DL-103R posted by Alanpiga on November 26, 2009 at 09:11:31
I can tell you that the 103R bored the hell out of me in my Linn Ittock. Heavier is better, and I didn't think that the Ittock was a particularly dainty tonearm.
Prehistoric 4-Channel Lizard
Follow Ups:
Was it the 103R itself or the 103R combined with the Linn Ittock tonearm that was boring? Did you end up finding a good tonearm for the 103R or did you ditch the 103R for another cartridge? What did you end up with? Thanks.
A 103R with a Naim ARO, dynamically compressed and sounded just bleh. ( same with the 103 )
It must be due to ARO being too light ( as Ittok ) for the cartridge, perhaps.
LOL ... I just answered your first post, and then you deleted it so my reply was discarded. Anyway ...
I had a Linn Asak installed since I bought the turntable, but I wanted a change. I bought into all of the 103R postings and tried one. It wasn't bad per se, just boring ... no dynamics and absolutely no detail. I know that a lot of guys worship them though, so I put it down to its match-up with the Ittock.
I would never ditch the tonearm (unless I bought a better Linn arm for my LP-12), so I did a trade through the Asylum Classifieds with another Inmate. He loves my old DL-103R (so I am sure it was the tonearm matching), and I am extremely pleased with the Grace F-10L (high-compliance low output MC) that he traded for it.
I had always liked the Grace F-9E MM cartridge (before you could no longer get stylii), so I took a chance on the moving coil. It is wonderful. I am using a Clearaudio Balance (low output MC only) phono stage, connected to a Bryston BP-26 with balanced Cardas Neutral Reference interconnects.
Prehistoric 4-Channel Lizard
...I was trying to be more clear so I revised my post and didn't realize you were replying to it about the same time. ;-)
Thanks for the clarification. I'm always curious and decided to do some searching for Grace cartridges but couldn't find any at the usual popular places like MusicDirect, Acousticsounds, LPGear, Needle Doctor, etc.
I like the 103R but that doesn't mean I won't be trying something else in the future so I'll file Grace away as a possibility.
I think it is about 30 years old, but it is pretty much brand new.
Prehistoric 4-Channel Lizard
I sold my shelter 501 and 901, plus a Koetsu Rosewood once I dialed in the 103R/103 on heavy mass tonearm and never look back. There's no substitute! Sure it will work on medium mass tonearm, but once you reach the 24 and above tonearm mass, currently running ~> 26 gms on all my TT's with 103/103R it is a different animal.regards and Happy Thanksgiving!
Abe
DIY, all the time!
Edits: 11/26/09
So the Cartridge Database says the published compliance is at 100Hz and will be higher at 10Hz. But doesn't say how much higher.
Does anybody know?
The Dl103R, at a compliance of 5, would need a very heavy tonearm for sure. Heavier than your talking about.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Hi Tre',
See post of another member above (link below).
I thought the reason why we try to figure out the right cart to tonearm matching is to avoid the rumble (low freq) that the system will pick up if there's a considerable mismatch? Am I wrong with this?
Rumble figures aside, I am just saying that in my experience the Denon 103 series sound much better when using a heavy arm than with a mid mass (14 or lower) tonearm. In fact, when I posted this before, someone commented that using a heavier arm on a 103 is like "polishing a turd" (show's you how much intelligence and education of the person where it came from). I am just stating my observation that work well in my system the way I prefer the sound in my system, nothing else.
In my case, using 5 as the compliance figure on a 103(8.5 grams) with 11.6 grams headshell plus fastener weight and 16 gms tonearm mass (Schick 12 for example), the figure comes out to be 11.8347 Hz and 8.82 Hz at compliance of 9. Either one gets me close to 8-12 Hz range as preferred by many. I use wood shells for my 103's and that increases the 8.5 gms weight of the cart, and IIRC, the resonant freq is about 10-ish for the combo.
regards
Happy Thanksgiving!
Abe
DIY, all the time!
"I thought the reason why we try to figure out the right cart to tonearm matching is to avoid the rumble (low freq) that the system will pick up if there's a considerable mismatch? Am I wrong with this?"
We want the resonance frequency of the compliance/mass system to be above the warp tones (4-6) and below the music (20). So that neither will set it off. Most say between 8 and 12.
If we are at 10Hz we are one octave above the warp tones and one octave below the music.
If the compliance of the cartridge is really 9 then a tonearm + headshell + mounting hardware mass of 20 and a stock dl103r weight of 8.5 grams, a tonearm of 20 grams gets us there.
That's 20 grams for the tone arm, headshell and mounting hardware.
We would need a 40 gram tonearm + headshell + mounting hardware if the compliance was really 5 to get the same system resonance frequency.
In the end, it's whatever works for you.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Strange enough to me. In my system, yes, Shelter 501 and Koetsu Rosewood may be possible. But apparently not a Shelter 901 when comparing to my DL-103SA(or DL-103R?!) assuming all carts are all original and in good shape:)Just curious, what other rigs you have in your system?
What would be your favorite music genre?Best regards
Dan
Remember there are a lot of people around the world, who are suffering from poverty and diseases, in need of our help. Please save some for them, find any reliable organizations and donate to them.
Edits: 11/26/09
To name a few I can still remember:
Linkwitz Orion Plus, ATI 6012, Supratek Preamp (Current)
MLTL base Fostex 167E (current)
Bozak Rhapsody and Concert Grand (sold it last year!)
Magnepan (1.6Qr x2), Martin Logan Aerius, Aeons, Ascents - All gone now!
SET base 2A3/45 driving OB Altec 604-8G (current)
Amps I had: Threshold S500, S250 Odyssey Mono Blocks, MR RM200, Cary V12
CJ MV 60SE and Premier 9.
Frankly, can't remember all the gears that had come and gone from my listening room anymore.
I listen to 80's pop (about 300 records and counting so far), have a collection of 40;s, 50's and 60's Jazz. Also rock (ACDC, Scorpions, Pink Floyd Jetro Tull, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heap, Iron Maiden, etc.). Have 28 Music Matters Jazz releases not counting AP records and Classis Jazz releases (Jazz probably about 1500 records). Classical is probably around 100 records or so. Also have several hundreds of CD's as well of different genres..
To me, if we are splitting hairs, I like the Shelter 501 much better than the 901. But to my preference, I can get the same satisfaction running Denon 103 series. So I figure, what's the point of keeping the carts un-use while if I really like too, I can get the same one in the use market easily. Besides, I think I am moving to classic Ortofon SPU's before buying any other cartridge manufactured today. I do not know, but I subscribed to the old thinking that every thing else in audio was figured out many years ago, at least that's what my experience led me to believe after falling over and over again from the fast moving merry go round of audio upgrades due to the "flavor of the month" raves that I encountered.
To each his own.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Abe
DIY, all the time!
Hi, Abe,
It seems our systems, approaches, music genres are pretty much different. Some of your audio rigs, if ever existed, are hard to find in Hong Kong now. My LP collection could not be regarded as HUGE as comparing to some of the folks here in VA. Over 70-80% of them are Classical or instrumental Jazz, the rest belongs to Pop/Rock/others. Classical seem growing faster and faster than the others;)
We shouldn't be surprised now to find we would have such different results on those MC carts. We should also recommend VA inmates to take a closer look at one's system profile when one recommends an item for others. As far as I know, there are no such things ever as "perfect design" nor "best product for all systems", etc. Even the best of the best audio products are still very much "system and taste dependent", right?
Happy thanksgiving!!!
Best regards
Dan
Remember there are a lot of people around the world, who are suffering from poverty and diseases, in need of our help. Please save some for them, find any reliable organizations and donate to them.
Heavy is good with the 103/103R. I have a FR64fx tonearm and I'm running an aluminum body on the DL103R plus a heavier headshell.
It's not quite as dynamic as my Decca Gold, but the 103R in a heavy arm has the same overall character. Easier to align and use, too.
Pete
Does anyone know who makes a heavy arm anymore. That may be why I didn't care for my DL103R so much......
Thomas Schick - his arm is a great match for the 103R.
Pete
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