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I had a HiFi cabinet made up recently to accommodate my collection of turntables.Centrepiece is the yet unsurpassed grease bearing Garrard 301 in a slate plinth with an SME3012.
Finally figured how to post pictures with higher resolution!
BK
The four together
The main player
The classic combination
The modern contender
The alternative view
The full system
Edits: 06/16/09Follow Ups:
System pictures of the day - now uploaded in higher resolution!See above!
BK
Edits: 06/16/09
I had a PT Export for 14 years and would still have it today if I had the room. It was replaced by a 301 and went to my brother where it keeps company with my old Fons CQ30, which was replaced by a 401.
That's a hell of a system you have there.
so my system is high class too, eh?
if(a)
if(b) x=y;
else x=z;
......
2 gray grease brg 301's, a Shindo'd white, desireable tonearms on them all and a Pink Triangle PTToo. And there is that Grado tonearm. What a cool collection. And that's just the vinyl spinning gear.
Congrats on a gorgeous looking vintage system.
-Steve
No-one has mentioned your PT TOO so far...How much improvement did you hear with Mark's PSU for the motor? Does it have an AC or DC motor?
How would you characterise the differences in sound between the Pink Triangle and the vintage decks?
Alex
Edits: 06/16/09
Hi,The PT TOO is a very interesting turntable.
When I got it originally it was a complete dog. The motor was noisy and the bearing was worn. After spending a lot of time tracking down replacements, I got it running, and I was really surprised at the phenomenal stereo imaging and the soundstage which seemed very wide. I still didn't have it running at the correct speed though. It has an AC synchronous motor, in theory these run at the correct speed, but in reality, they don't.
The belt tension is a big factor in fine tuning of the speed. You can fiddle around with different belts, and each one will provide a different speed, but this method is hit and miss. Mark Kelly's PSU cracked the problem finally, and I could get the turntable to rune exactly at 33.33 RPM. As a result of my experiments with different belts, I came to the conclusion that speed adjustment for a turntable with a synchronous motor is a critical feature that is usually absent. Mark got it right by including this feature from the outset. The other improvement that the PSU brought was that the motor was now completely silent - as silent as an Origin Live Ultra DC motor that I also have.
I don't think I have optimised this turntable to the fullest extent. I want to try it with a different arm at some stage. An SME IV or an SME V might be ideal, or a Helius Orion that I picked up recently. The Grado arm might look better on a Garrard 301!
However, I would say that the PT TOO is a very good sounding turntable particularly when you're in the mood for some fast and pacey rock and pop music.
BK
Edits: 06/16/09
Yes, I always found the speed and speed stability in my PT TOO to be very sensitive to several aspects of setup, and the deck was also sensitive to ageing belts.
You may be interested in my experience with the Funk Firm's upgrades to my Pink - they turn it into quite a different machine entirely. I know Mark has his own projects with similar DC motor control systems to Funk's K-Drive, but putting the motor on the subchassis and then using two extra pulleys really improve the stability.
Alex
I've basically given up on DC motors, too noisy and unstable.
Mark Kelly
That sounds like the bitter voice of experience...
Do you really find AC motors quiet enough, once you have sorted the supply? Would you consider putting a synchronous motor on a suspended subchassis, Pink-style?
The latest version of my Funk Firm upgrade (with the motor now an Airpax 9904-120-1810, and with a tweaked controller), is sounding very fine now, and the occasional arbitrary speed shifts that I reported on the Vinyl Engine forum seem to be a thing of the past.
Alex
As it stands and depending on the motor, I can usually get AC motors to be quieter than DC.
I can alwys get better precision in all other aspects from AC. I have a workaround for the major causes of noise and stability in DC that I'd like to try but not enough time or resources to do the work.
I wouldn't copy anything Funk Firm does, Arthur's ideas are his ideas.
Mark Kelly
Hi,
I read your excellent review and was thinking of going down that road in the future. I may look at upgrading the PT TOO later. It certainly benefited significantly from a new bearing, and a silent motor and an accurate power supply!
Best regards,
BK
Hi Brian
Am I right in thinking the Shindo mods are on the "modern contender"?
What's the platter on the main player? The polished finish doesn't look like the standard Garrard unit but the dimensions look similar.
Mark Kelly
Hi Mark,Yes, that's the Shindo platter on the "Modern Contender".
I uploaded high resolution pictures to my gallery - see link.
Here's another shot of the turntable with the Shindo platter. The Shindo platter is very well designed: the top surface is more-or-less flat there a very slight label recess in the centre. Over a diameter of 293mm it is machined to a depth ~3mm which accomodates a thick mat. When the mat is fitted, the surface represents a good interface for the majority of my records. A lot of platters and mats seem to feature very deep label recesses; I often wonder did the designers of these take the touble to look at a few records before they finalised the design. If they had they would have found that a deep label recess does not improve the contact between the record and the plater, and that moreover, a deep recess rules out the possibility of using a clamp, as the record just bows up at the edges when the clamp is placed over the spindle.
The Shindo mat is very heavy, and might be formed from some form of lead composite with canvas backing on both sides. The mat dampens any resonance in the platter.
The lip of the record just makes contact with the outer rim of the platter, and when an appropriate clamp is used (the SME locking style clamp is ideal for this) the record makes very good contact with the platter. With this arrangement I can play moderately warped records so that they are flat on both sides - gravity clamps are only good to flatten the convex side of a record.
In the picture you can see the black washer from the SME clamp, and a paper strobe disc which was supplied by Martin Bastin along with his hand held strobe (The "Zapper" as he calls it)
The Shindo bearing is about 15cm or 16cm deep, so it needs to be partnered with a turntable in a correspondingly deep plinth. It comprises a long shaft sitting on top of a large ball bearing. I'm not sure about materials used. The bearing is lubricated with a combination of grease and oil. When the spindle settles in the bearing (which takes an hour or so) the surface tension forms a lock, so that the spindle can't be removed easily.
The arm is an SME V with an Audio Technica AT33PTG cartridge, and the plinth is made from stacked layers of MDF in the style of the Martin Bastin plinth with rubber feet for decoupling.I think this combination works very well.
The difference between the two turntables is interesting - will put some thoughts together on that subject later.
BK
Edits: 06/16/09 06/16/09 06/16/09
I have the idea from somewhere that it is a Barium loaded polymer, this being a standard material in industrial acoustics. That's not to suggest that Shindo san is just using a standard material, he obviously has a depth of fabrication expertise available that puts the rest of us to shame.
That austenitic cast iron platter is a work of industrial art. I believe Schopper is doing a Thorens platter in similar material but everyone else has looked at the production costs and run away.
Mark Kelly
That might be it, your knowledge of materials well surpasses mine.
I forgot to mention that the platter on the main player is the original 301 platter.
The paint was flaking from the rim of the platter, and I just couldn't live with it. Particularly as there didn't seem to be any way to stabilise the flaking. So I carefully removed the paint using a mixture of elbow grease, fingernails, a metal polish and a bag full of cotton rags. The final result worked well, it came up to a dull brushed shine, which matches the appearance of the rest of the turntable. The paint on the top surface of the platter was not affected, and the finish on the chassis looks good - the one or two war wounds on the face plates add to the look!
I knew when I embarked on this project that I might be damaging a collectable item, but when I see the finished product, I have no remaining doubts about taking that step.
The other grey 301 the "Classic Combination" is completely original. It's the closest to mint that I've seen for a grey hammertone finish 301.
Best regards,
BK
housepet in a box ©
The nicest Slatedeck I have seen, congrats. I is the combo I will make next after the TD 124 and Lenco, with single layer 10cm. thick Slate from Ardennes. The armboard will be slate TD 124 to compare 3 decks with same tonearm. Your 301 Hammergray looks gorgeous, BRAVO !
Best and I really would like to listen to your system one day ...
Jean.
Would be interested in your comparison and contrasts of the Main Player vis a vis the Modern Contender, and to a lesser degree the Clissic Combination.
hint - its behind the turntables (center). ; )
I thought that was the new DIY version of RPG Diffusors - just pull 1 of every 5 out halfway and you have your diffusor wall. It's modular, and you can buy the parts cheap at garage sales
:^P
that's a large collection of neatly stacked beer coasters :-)
*
I'm drawn to the Rogers LS3/5A's. I still have a pair I bought new in 1978. What are the bass modules? They don't look like the Satterberg's which I ran for a while.
Very Nice!
Are those original 15 ohm Rogers LS3/5a's? Lucky you if they are. I've owned several iterations of LS3/5a's and, IMHO, none have surpassed these. Congrats on the stunning ttbles!
Actually, what look like bass units in the pictures are my main units, a pair of Tannoy Turnberry HE speakers. The LS3/5a are a second pair of speakers for late night listening - when I don't want to annoy my neighbours with the low bass of the Tannoys!
The LS3/5a speakers do produce a big sound all the same!
BK
nt
Nice collection of tables you have there.
One question for you .....You have the speakers further back then the tables, do you bring the speakers out into the room more when you listen ?
Good idea, but sounds like too much hassle.
The speakers look further back in the picture, in reality they are flush with the brick face of the fireplace which is directly behind the turntables.
BK
Hi Brian,
That's a real nice setup you have there.
If you want to load larger pictures, you can do so in your picture gallery. Anytime you use the "Upload Image" function in the message window, the pictures are downsized.
Very nice system!
Best regards,
John Elison
I uploaded the pictures to my gallery, but I couldn't get the links to work!!
Strange!
BK
That's strange because the links work for me.
Very nice pictures, by the way. What camera are you using? I probably need a new one. ;-)
I'm using a Nikon D200 with an 18-200mm lens. The best camera I've ever owned!
So what's the trick to posting the pictures? When I put the links into the text of the post they came up as broken picture links!
BK
If you are logged-in as yourself (What? You've never logged-in as someone else?) you may not be able to directly load your pictures to posts. What I've always had to do is open two tabs in Mozilla, go to my AA gallery in both (one as a "guest" or not logged-in) and the other as "me" (logged-in), and in the tab where I am not logged-in I right click, save the link from Properties, and copy to the text of the other tab I mean to post from (my logged-in tab). Oh, and note I post directly to the text using HTML, not to the image/URL spaces available below, as posting them there results in automatic resizing.
Clear as mud?
Jim
I don't know what the trick is. When I log into my picture gallery there is a link underneath all my pictures that provides the correct html code to insert into my message. Of course, I couldn't log into your picture gallery so I had to right click on each of your pictures and then click on "Properties" in order to find the URL address. I copied the address and put in into the text of my message with the correct html code as follows:[img src="http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=42398&f=DSC_2024_LR.jpg"]
Of course, the square brackets "[ ]" would be replaced by angle brackers " < > " in the actual message.
If you can get it to work, you can edit your original message and replace the pictures.
Good luck,
John Elison
Edits: 06/16/09
OK got it, I was attaching the wrong URL - Thanks.
Will have to brush the dust off the SME V for the next lot of pictures!!
BK
Hi Brian,
It appears that you like the Denon DL-103R as much as I do. I've been playing mine for over two years and it is showing some wear. I recently bought a DL-103SA from a guy on eBay who sells at a reasonable price. I haven't mounted it yet, but it sure looks nice. I'm thinking about buying another one so I will have one in each of my two turntables.
Best regards,
John Elison
Others I've heard are better in some ways, it definitely benefits from a re-tip, but all in all, it does a good job, produces a full bodied sound, lacks the fizzle and pop of some other MCs and is available at a perfectly reasonnable price.
Best regards,
BK
Low rez picture depicting hi-rez system ;)
Did you design that when you designed your plinth?
How much does it weigh and could the mfr make another? Or Another 5?
The clamp is made of graphite, and weighs 500g.
I had it made up by an ebayer who was selling graphite accessories a few years ago. However, I think he has packed up his cottage industry.
Something heavier might be a better option.
I saw this one on ebay recently which looks interesting.
BK
I saw that one. I'd love something which had more size than the stainless steel, and perhaps slightly more mass. Love the matte black too.
And also would love about 5 of them.
Looking at your excellent new rack gives me some ideas - I have a similar "problem" of multiple tables (even after I get rid of some). I have been thinking of something along similar lines, but would really like to have a 'frame with fascia' in which I could mount a vibraplane-type platform. Given the weight I am dealing with (the lightest of 4-5 tables in stock form is about 80lbs, I am thinking of re-plinthing one or two in a high-mass plinth, and the isolation platforms are heavy too (also 60-80lbs), I expect I have to go steel frame with wood cladding, or two racks.
I also considered a metal frame with timbre shelves, and then finally plumped for an all-timbre rack. It made the design easier.
Initially, I was concerned that it wouldn't take the weight, but the cabinet maker assured me that there would be no problem. Incidentally, the timbre is Mahogany.
BK
Someone posted this link here not too long ago.
I think. Those products look gorgeous. Do you know anyone who has used particularly those high mass copper mats? I wonder how they would affect function of the servo mechanisms in direct-drive tts, like your SL-1200 or my SP10 Mk2.
Hi Lew,
I don't know anyone who has used them. Someone posted this link a week or so ago and I bookmarked the website because it looked interesting. I don't see why a copper mat would cause problems for a direct drive turntable, though.
Best regards,
John Elison
it's the possibly excessive mass. The servo is tuned to a specific mass of platter. Probably there is some margin for variation, but if the mass is much higher than specified, the response of the servo might become sluggish. Conversely, if the mass is markedly reduced, the system could oscillate. The question is whether these heavy copper mats, which add about 50% of mass to, for example, my SP10 platter, would cause such problems. I guess trial and error is the only way to know. There was/is a nice thread on diyaudio regarding construction of a motor controller for the SP10 in which this subject was broached.
In that connection, I recently saw an SP10 MkII for sale that was said to sport a MkIII platter or a platter of similar mass to that of a MKIII! That could not be a good thing, since the MkIII platter weighs more than 20 lbs and the MkII was designed for its 6-8 lb platter.
I hadn't thought about that aspect. I guess I don't really know that much about direct drive turntables, but I'm glad you made me aware of that. It would be the moment-of-inertia that would cause problems, so a peripheral ring would definitely not be a good idea. I doubt that a spindle weight would cause any problems to speak of and that's all I use.
Thanks for the information.
Best Regards,
John Elison
I don't really know how right or wrong I am on this, meaning I don't know how one would calculate the upper or lower limits of tolerance in deviating from the weight of the standard platter. My guess is it would depend upon the torque of the motor but also on the servo mechanism itself. Maybe Mark could shed some light. In the photos on that website, it seems they ARE showing their platter on an SL-1200, in at least one instance. Yes, the ring weight could be especially problematic, unless it's made of lightweight material. I am using an SAEC ss-300 mat on my SP10. It weighs about a pound more than the stock rubber mat, and I detect no audible problem.
I know they work damn good on the idlers specifically Lenco's
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