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In Reply to: RE: Technics SL-1200G vs Continum Caliburn & SAT Arm posted by vinyl survivor on February 01, 2017 at 17:19:14
I can't believe how many people are complaining about this. Can we not have any fun with this hobby? Does everything have to be peer reviewed and measured before it's accepted?
Fremer was just having fun, as there are many people interested in the Technics, including me. And yes, Youtube audio isn't great, but you can definitely hear differences between the two tables. Would it be better to hear them in person, of course, but how many people here know anyone who has a Caliburn? Is it definitive, no, but it's just a easy way of giving people a taste of what the table sounds like. I for one welcome these types of videos and appreciated him doing it.
Why some people here are so angry is beyond me. Just enjoy it. It was a quick little time waster if you're interested in hearing a comparison between two tables.
Follow Ups:
+1!
This stuff is supposed to be fun and entertaining.
nt
..and if that includes these rips, great.My point was simply that, to my ear, the distortions of the encoding and decoding of the music swamps any meaningful differences and reduces the whole thing to an intellectual exercise in that I am unable to differentiate the differences caused by the difference in turntables and those that are artifacts of the processing. Please note that I said, "to my ear".
But it's rather presumptuous to think that just because someone sees no value in something that they are angry. Or that they are not open to others benefitting from it.
And to disagree with the usefulness of the files is not complaining, it is simply an observation regarding their utility. To reduce dissent to complaining and anger really misses the point. Or perhaps this is an ad hominem argument on your part where everyone that dissents is, in fact, an angry complainer. Works well with our current culture for sure.
Edits: 02/03/17
Succinct and well put.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
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"E Burres Stigano?"
nt
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
It's BS to degrade an interesting and entertaining listening experiment. I don't understand the negativity either. I think it's fun to do this sort of thing and I commend Michael Fremer for his efforts in promoting vinyl comparisons via digital recording. More power to you, Michael!
Best regards,
John Elison
John, you have to understand. AUDIOPHILES EAT THEIR YOUNG!!!
I don't consider it negative to question or challenge the premise of the challenge. The appeal would depend very much on the individual's taste in music and understanding of experiment design and how someone interprets the purpose of the challenge. The implication was that he considered the 1200G to be extraordinary value for money that punches well above its price class which I firmly believe. After all there is absolutely nothing in the Continuum that justifies its price tag from an engineering perspective.
The question has to be asked then, as an engineer, what you think the experiment is/was that makes it so interesting? Entertaining perhaps if you like his choice of music and just want to hear a Fremer Needle drop in Glorious Digital, but beyond proving the law of diminishing returns I don't quite see what makes it so interesting? It might pique curiousity perhaps.
The Continuum wasn't paired with the manufacturers arm, but with another 3rd party arm - probably because the effective mass was a more sensible match to the Lyra. Beyond that, you are only testing the consistency of setup. It appears that he may have used the Technics geometry given the cartridge position in the headshell, so the alignments were likely different which would already have a bias favouring one setup over the other depending on the track position on the record. Irrespective of whether with the material chosen and the position on the record this would have been audible or not, the experiment is simply ill-defined based on the original premise of the challenge presented by Fremer. In fact I think he might have gained more amusement out of seeing the long list of opinions on which sounded better and why. Now THAT I did find entertaining! It would be the same for the Master Of Wine that I know who often gets people coming up to him gushing forth their opinions of a particularly wine in an attempt to impress and not realising that his reference level is so far out of their league that their comments are almost comical. Being the consummate gentleman that he is, he just politely encourages them to continue to enjoy their hobby! I'm sure this is the same for MF.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
You are a curious mixture of inconsistencies! One minute the pedant, the next the Fan Boy. Oh well, such is life as you say.
BTW the VM series of AT cartridges have appeared now on eBay. The 760SLC price is a little less than the Japanese RRP so this price seems about what one might expect. It will take some time for the price to come down based on the pattern of discounting that occurs in Japan.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
I wonder why they won't ship to the United States. Oh, well. Such is life! ;-)
Edits: 02/04/17
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
I think what's annoying to me are those on his site that that profess to hear dramatic differences between the two, spouting typical audiophile terms and seemingly so sure of themselves. Perhaps many of us so called audiophiles have more confidence in our powers of discrimination than are warranted. To me, tests like this bring out the crazies in droves. I know I don't have to subscribe to this nonsense; I should really know better.
Interesting because I find it odd that you don't hear significant differences between the 2 tables - even if it's just the obvious pitch issues of the second table.
I really hope the first recording (showing the Technics) is actually the SL1200 - it sounds so much better to me - but I doubt this will end up being the case.
System Details
Paul-
I actually don't find this exercise as much fun as others apparently do. I guess I listened just out of curiosity but really couldn't distinguish much of a difference. Perhaps some are just more sensitive to pitch changes. (My hearing is good for my age- just had it checked last year).
To me, a test like this, trying to detect small differences in sound is just another example of the obsession of so called audiophiles, many of whom I have no doubt have more confidence in their discriminatory powers than is probably justified. For those who enjoy it, indulge to your heart's content. I'd rather listen to music.
I didn't find the exercise a chore - after all it only takes a few minutes of your time.
What would be great fun - and a massive win for sanity over excess - is if the first table is actually the Technics.
As stated elsewhere I didn't find the differences to be what I consider small - and the gap between the two widened with repeated listening.
In regard to the choice of 'music', I suspect Fremer chose this track to expose deficiencies - which I think it has done rather well.
System Details
> ...and the gap between the two widened with repeated listening.
This is unusual, but I noticed the same thing. Usually, two components begin to sound more alike the more you repeat an A/B listening comparison, but I noticed the same thing you noticed. They both sounded more unlike each other the longer I repeated the test. Strange, but interesting!
Best regards,
John Elison
The beauty of it is you can do this test AND listen to music, at the same time. However, for me, after a few bars, this particular piece of music became repetitive and uninteresting, just a bunch of percussion instruments playing around.
I've got to go back, though, and find out whether I can hear the "obvious pitch differences" between turntables 1 and 2. I may have been snoozing by the time the second turntable came on to the recording.
nt
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Favorite album of recent times, beautiful and completely mesmerizing: The Revolutionary Army of the Infant Jesus - Beauty Will Save the World
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