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Michael Fremer has posted a comparison between the two tables on his website and on YouTube. I posted a link below to his website. He also just posted another comparison with different music. He is not giving away which turntable is which at this point. Both tables are fitted with the same cartridge.
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I strongly prefer the first recording (which shows the SL1200 playing). If this actually turns out to be the Technics I'm buying one!
Whichever table is second has serious pitch issues which I find quite annoying on this track - sounds faulty. The decays and how sound projects into space also sound comparatively lacklustre compared to the first.
The sound of the drum on the first track also has far more realistic timbre and definition.
System Details
Wow, completly opposite from what i heard , did not hear speed issues with any of the tables too and BTW , small to some is a landslide to others , it was not difficult for me to hear a difference between the two , i guess its down to listening preferences as oppose to no difference.
Edits: 02/06/17
Wow, that's interesting - can I ask what you listened through?
FWIW, I played the video file back via my usual listening setup. Mac Mini > Grace m920 dac/pre > Focal Utopia headphones or Halcro mc30 > Harbeth m30.1 speakers. I've spent a bit of effort optimising the Mac for streaming music.
I guess if I were listening to the recording via an el-cheapo laptop with built speakers the differences would be harder to discern - but I actually haven't tried that.
System Details
Interesting you did not hear any groove noise, did you read my original post ? there was also substantial rumble from both tables , i found the amount of bandwidth available interesting, well considering it was u boob ..
Regards
I don't play my speakers with the the grilles removed - they're designed for correct balance with grills fitted - so I have no idea about relative woofer movement.I never said I didn't hear groove noise from both tables(?) - this is vinyl after all - but it certainly didn't factor in my preference. Regardless of any relative groove noise/woofer movement I found the first table decidedly better for the reasons stated.
EDIT: FWIW I've since listened Fremer's second set of recordings - Natania Davrath, Songs of the Auvergne - and don't hear the pitch issues revealed by the first recording. I preferred the second for it's smoothness and control on vocal sustain and relaxed nature - however if I heard the first without reference to the second, I'd say it sounded quite good.
I have this recording, so when I finally get my Graham arm back into service I'll be keen to spin it for comparison.
System Details
Edits: 02/06/17
Thanks for posting , i can only wish Fremer will do the comparison again with Music ...
Ok ,
Apparently MF uploaded a new file , his version of Vocals , haven't had a chance to download those files for Comparisons as yet. Directly from the U toob video of his original post , i found the 1200 to not be as good as the continuum, not close really , both had about the same rumble effect on the woofers ( based on woofer oscillations) but the continium had way less groove noise , better texture and attack , better Prat ...
FWIW ....
With the first sample recordings, I too thought I noticed a difference in "groove noise" between one cut and the other. But I did not know which turntable was which; has he now revealed that information? More importantly, why should one turntable reveal less or more groove noise than the other? Such a finding could be due to the differences between the two different tonearms or even an artifact of not mounting the cartridge with exactly the same error margins in one case vs the other. But I find it hard to blame the turntable, per se, for a difference in groove noise.
I tried to concentrate on timing and pitch, regardless of S/N ratio. I did not hear much difference in those two parameters.
Yes i would put tracking noise down to tonearm/alignment or combination of , also not sure if MF needle drops were done with his system going at listening levels , doing or not doing so could have had a more pronounced outcome ....
Regards
Edits: 02/06/17
I am a bit disappointed that Mr Fremer chose that particular type of music for the comparison, all other things being equal, which they are not. That stuff is typical hi-fi show demo material, full of tinkly percussion that makes most equipment sound pretty darn good. I hope he will repeat the experiment using (1) orchestral pieces, and (2) vocals, especially vocals done by very well known vocalists with whom most of us might be familiar. Either genre would be much more telling.
That said, I heard no differences that would compel me to choose one over the other.
I was glad to hear Mr Fremer say that anyone who thinks the new Technics is naught but a re-hash of the original SL1200 is way off base, by which he was inferring that the new SL1200G is much superior to the old. Based on what I know about it, I think it must be so.
nt
I can't believe how many people are complaining about this. Can we not have any fun with this hobby? Does everything have to be peer reviewed and measured before it's accepted?
Fremer was just having fun, as there are many people interested in the Technics, including me. And yes, Youtube audio isn't great, but you can definitely hear differences between the two tables. Would it be better to hear them in person, of course, but how many people here know anyone who has a Caliburn? Is it definitive, no, but it's just a easy way of giving people a taste of what the table sounds like. I for one welcome these types of videos and appreciated him doing it.
Why some people here are so angry is beyond me. Just enjoy it. It was a quick little time waster if you're interested in hearing a comparison between two tables.
+1!
This stuff is supposed to be fun and entertaining.
nt
..and if that includes these rips, great.My point was simply that, to my ear, the distortions of the encoding and decoding of the music swamps any meaningful differences and reduces the whole thing to an intellectual exercise in that I am unable to differentiate the differences caused by the difference in turntables and those that are artifacts of the processing. Please note that I said, "to my ear".
But it's rather presumptuous to think that just because someone sees no value in something that they are angry. Or that they are not open to others benefitting from it.
And to disagree with the usefulness of the files is not complaining, it is simply an observation regarding their utility. To reduce dissent to complaining and anger really misses the point. Or perhaps this is an ad hominem argument on your part where everyone that dissents is, in fact, an angry complainer. Works well with our current culture for sure.
Edits: 02/03/17
Succinct and well put.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
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"E Burres Stigano?"
nt
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
It's BS to degrade an interesting and entertaining listening experiment. I don't understand the negativity either. I think it's fun to do this sort of thing and I commend Michael Fremer for his efforts in promoting vinyl comparisons via digital recording. More power to you, Michael!
Best regards,
John Elison
John, you have to understand. AUDIOPHILES EAT THEIR YOUNG!!!
I don't consider it negative to question or challenge the premise of the challenge. The appeal would depend very much on the individual's taste in music and understanding of experiment design and how someone interprets the purpose of the challenge. The implication was that he considered the 1200G to be extraordinary value for money that punches well above its price class which I firmly believe. After all there is absolutely nothing in the Continuum that justifies its price tag from an engineering perspective.
The question has to be asked then, as an engineer, what you think the experiment is/was that makes it so interesting? Entertaining perhaps if you like his choice of music and just want to hear a Fremer Needle drop in Glorious Digital, but beyond proving the law of diminishing returns I don't quite see what makes it so interesting? It might pique curiousity perhaps.
The Continuum wasn't paired with the manufacturers arm, but with another 3rd party arm - probably because the effective mass was a more sensible match to the Lyra. Beyond that, you are only testing the consistency of setup. It appears that he may have used the Technics geometry given the cartridge position in the headshell, so the alignments were likely different which would already have a bias favouring one setup over the other depending on the track position on the record. Irrespective of whether with the material chosen and the position on the record this would have been audible or not, the experiment is simply ill-defined based on the original premise of the challenge presented by Fremer. In fact I think he might have gained more amusement out of seeing the long list of opinions on which sounded better and why. Now THAT I did find entertaining! It would be the same for the Master Of Wine that I know who often gets people coming up to him gushing forth their opinions of a particularly wine in an attempt to impress and not realising that his reference level is so far out of their league that their comments are almost comical. Being the consummate gentleman that he is, he just politely encourages them to continue to enjoy their hobby! I'm sure this is the same for MF.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
You are a curious mixture of inconsistencies! One minute the pedant, the next the Fan Boy. Oh well, such is life as you say.
BTW the VM series of AT cartridges have appeared now on eBay. The 760SLC price is a little less than the Japanese RRP so this price seems about what one might expect. It will take some time for the price to come down based on the pattern of discounting that occurs in Japan.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
I wonder why they won't ship to the United States. Oh, well. Such is life! ;-)
Edits: 02/04/17
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
I think what's annoying to me are those on his site that that profess to hear dramatic differences between the two, spouting typical audiophile terms and seemingly so sure of themselves. Perhaps many of us so called audiophiles have more confidence in our powers of discrimination than are warranted. To me, tests like this bring out the crazies in droves. I know I don't have to subscribe to this nonsense; I should really know better.
Interesting because I find it odd that you don't hear significant differences between the 2 tables - even if it's just the obvious pitch issues of the second table.
I really hope the first recording (showing the Technics) is actually the SL1200 - it sounds so much better to me - but I doubt this will end up being the case.
System Details
Paul-
I actually don't find this exercise as much fun as others apparently do. I guess I listened just out of curiosity but really couldn't distinguish much of a difference. Perhaps some are just more sensitive to pitch changes. (My hearing is good for my age- just had it checked last year).
To me, a test like this, trying to detect small differences in sound is just another example of the obsession of so called audiophiles, many of whom I have no doubt have more confidence in their discriminatory powers than is probably justified. For those who enjoy it, indulge to your heart's content. I'd rather listen to music.
I didn't find the exercise a chore - after all it only takes a few minutes of your time.
What would be great fun - and a massive win for sanity over excess - is if the first table is actually the Technics.
As stated elsewhere I didn't find the differences to be what I consider small - and the gap between the two widened with repeated listening.
In regard to the choice of 'music', I suspect Fremer chose this track to expose deficiencies - which I think it has done rather well.
System Details
> ...and the gap between the two widened with repeated listening.
This is unusual, but I noticed the same thing. Usually, two components begin to sound more alike the more you repeat an A/B listening comparison, but I noticed the same thing you noticed. They both sounded more unlike each other the longer I repeated the test. Strange, but interesting!
Best regards,
John Elison
The beauty of it is you can do this test AND listen to music, at the same time. However, for me, after a few bars, this particular piece of music became repetitive and uninteresting, just a bunch of percussion instruments playing around.
I've got to go back, though, and find out whether I can hear the "obvious pitch differences" between turntables 1 and 2. I may have been snoozing by the time the second turntable came on to the recording.
nt
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Favorite album of recent times, beautiful and completely mesmerizing: The Revolutionary Army of the Infant Jesus - Beauty Will Save the World
It's absolute BS...
I'm not sure what he is trying to prove here beyond the law of diminishing returns and cartridge arm/match.
If he is using the same cartridge in both arms then he has the big issue of variability in alignment. Secondly whether he has opted for the standard Technics alignment (which it would appear so given the position of the cartridge in the headshell) and how he achieves that compared to whatever he used for the SAT arm. If he used the L-gauge then he can be anything up to 0.5mm off in overhang and at least 0.5° off in offset not necessarily due to his ability to align in the gauge, but due to arm tolerances.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
You think Fremer didn't install the cart on the Technics correctly?
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
Very possibly.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
I seriously doubt that. Fremer is extremely competent regarding cartridge set-up.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
If Fremer mounted the SAT Arm in accordance with its intended alignment geometry, it will produce seriously high inner groove distortion. The SAT tonearm will not perform well on grooves with radii smaller than 73-mm. I've never seen an alignment quite like it. Effective length is 235-mm with a mounting distance of 212.2-mm and offset of 26.1-degrees.
.
I would recommend a more normal alignment with a mounting distance of 217.4-mm and offset of 23.4-degrees. This produces slightly higher levels of tracking error distortion on middle and outer grooves, but it allows good performance on inner grooves from 60-mm to 73-mm. The original alignment is designed for LPs that do not have any inner grooves.
It's not about whether he is "competent" or not. I'm sure he has his routine down pat and can do it in his sleep. The issue is what sort of repeatability he can achieve and what accuracy he can achieve. I don't doubt he can achieve reasonable precision given that we know he uses a USB microscope to measure SRA. I would also be curious whether he has validated and verified the arm positioning and dimensional accuracy himself and whether has used an independent tool to set the alignment on the Technics or whether he is relying on the L-gauge. If he has used the L-gauge then his alignment accuracy is heavily dependent on the accuracy with which both the arm was centred in the plinth and whether he has verified the tonearm dimensions. You may not have done the process study, but I can tell you having disassembled and measured up several of my Technics arms for rewiring purposes that there are variances in the total length and offset angle, which, if not taken into account, make the L-gauge a rather inaccurate tool. There is a big difference between accuracy and precision.
As for his test, it is not clear if he is trying to compare the "package" which includes the manufacturer recommended alignment or whether he is trying to compare the actual "decks" themselves in terms of pitch stability, vibration isolation etc etc. If the latter, then he should have chosen the identical alignment for both decks.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
The first track sounds best to me and I believe it is the Continuum. The second track has a lot of groove noise and pitch issues. I don't know if the pitch control on the Technics is reason for the pitch issues but the control lever it is not set at "zero" but instead a notch or two below zero. I hear a slow wah, wah on the second cut, perhaps due to the pitch control setting? Regardless, I prefer the first cut but wonder if the Technics pitch control is a factor. Anyone?
Regards,
Doug Olsen
A man can never have too many turntables or LP's 🎼
You obviously don't own a Technics SL-1200. The pitch control has to be set at zero in order for the light next to it to be on. If it were set anywhere other than zero, the light would be off. The light indicates the speed is quartz locked at 45-rpm. You can prove this to yourself by timing platter revolutions.
Best regards,
John Elison
OK, OK, I do own an SL1200 M5g and obviously don't know exactly how the pitch control works because my good buddie, Alex Peychev of APL HiFi disabled it in addition to placing the power supply outboard among a couple other mods. I will check mine to see if at zero, the light is on. If not I'll have another Scotch and forget all about it. :-)
Regards,
Doug Olsen
A man can never have too many turntables or LP's 🎼
Scientific...No! Entertaining....Yes! It's just a hobby, enjoy.
Fremer does this stuff all the time. It's good for his blog business.
And even though we know the whole thing is a sham, many of us cannot resist listening.
Of course, one cannot evaluate two such very different turntables via less than max'd out digital distillation of their sound(s). Moreover, even if the digitized versions were revealing, one would want to evaluate any two turntables, or any other two pieces of equipment, over a long period of time in one's own system. Anyway, for those fretting about the cost of the Caliburn, I think it's now out of production. But maybe not. But maybe it wouldn't make any difference, either way.
This is such bs. Try listening to YouTube videos of super expensive guitars vs reasonably priced guitars and you'd come to the same conclusion, that the cheaper one is basically as good.... until of course you were in the room with them and the cheaper one sounded like crap next to the other.
Fremer is a fucking troll.
It's not BS; it's fun! It's also good to know that you don't need to spend one hundred and fifty thousand dollars on a turntable to have a nice sounding high-end system. Furthermore, you obviously know nothing about digital recordings if you think they are not capable of revealing the sound of vinyl. I've been making digital recordings of vinyl since 1991 and I can tell you from experience that they are very accurate and representative of vinyl. In fact, YouTube can also provide exceptional sound quality if you use a streamer like my Oppo BDP-105D and play it through a high-end audio system.
Best regards,
John Elison
Totally agree. Wonderful description.
I would excuse myself from judging Fremer because I have not met him.
Not to open up a whole other issue, but I don't think your characterization of Fremer is entirely fair. As I understand the term, a troll tries to sow discord on the internet by posting inflammatory remarks and upsetting people. Except for his occasional and often out of place vitriolic attacks on people who insult or disparage him, I don't think that his main intent is to upset people. For me, at least, his website including his reviews of hardware and discs have been very helpful through the years. Furthermore, he has a sense of humor and can be self-effacing at times. I'm troubled by the fact that on forums like this, it's so easy to attack someone facelessly and demeaningly. If you don't like him, fine. But calling him names, to my mind, accomplishes nothing.
I met Michael Fremer at a NJ record fair and the guy could not have been more affable and encouraging about our hobby. That's a lot more than I can say about many other records collectors I've run into at these affairs..
nt
Agree on Fremer.
-Wendell
I fully agree, Fremer is a troll. But what else would you expect from somebody who drives a Saab and is proud of it?
Oh, and BTW, I understand that Fremer cashed in his 401k in order to be able to buy that Caliburn.
Cheers,
Al
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
these exercises seem like so much intellectual masturbation on Mr. Fremer's part.
...it won't make a bit of difference, but would be more audiofoolish.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
.
Continue to chuckle at the use of Youtube to present the differences between esoteric analogue audio. Even if downloadable digital files were available, the discombobulation of the signal is devastating and permanently encoded into the experience - not to mention the huge numbers of variable wrapped into it all.
What's the point?!
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Sure beats listening to music.
Well played, sir.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
The opinions as to which is the superior recording seem to be evenly divided. Granted, this is only a YouTube clip but for me it clearly calls to mind the notion of diminishing returns past a certain price point. Also, it's stunning how short our aural memory is; the fact that even with such short clips, many had to go back and listen again to try to discern what they actually heard. Really, if you have to try so hard to find the differences in the two clips, maybe we should just conclude it's a fool's errand. Here are two turntables, one hugely expensive, one much more affordable with different tonearms and the same cartridge, and there is no consensus as to which offers the best sound.I'd be willing to bet that the same result would be obtained even under live conditions if the tables were shielded from view. Perhaps if any valid conclusion can be reached, it is that people prefer or think they prefer a certain sound.
And I love how sure some of the listeners are of themselves, how authoritative their musings: "better by a huge margin. Cleaner more realistic leading edges, air between the instruments, more solidity in the instruments, better decay, more realistic soundstage depth, and more musically compelling." All this from a short digital clip!
This is one reason I sold my expensive Acustic Raven turntable and bought a Rega RP6. Because, when I was truly honest with myself, I really had to strain to hear a difference between the sound produced by each. And I'm still not sure which was superior!
Edits: 02/01/17 02/01/17
i'd love to know what phono preamp you were using for the comparison between the Raven and RP6? I've done a lot of table comparisons and it's usually pretty easy in the room to choose which one I prefer-- notice I'm not saying which is better :)
Maybe I'm wrong......only listening through my iPad speaker but the tracks from the first test seem to be in the same order as the second test. #1 first test is the same front end as #1 in the second test, etc..... Also, it seems I'm hearing a bit of speed inconsistencies in the second table. However, I can't make critical listening analysis through an iPad but my guess is that #1 is the 1200 and #2 is the Caliburn.
Edits: 02/01/17
Tomorrow I can take a more serious listen.
Download the hi-rez files to get a better idea. I didn't. But the way I see it is this; If I have to spend over a hundred thousand dollars to get the marginally better sound of the Caliburn, then I would much rather get the 1200G and have 146,000 bucks left over to travel the world and listen to live music. I say 146k because I read a few articles that have the current price of a Continuum at somewhere in that range, I'm hoping that includes an arm, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't. :o
What you say makes sense for people like you and me (I guess). However I suspect that the kind of guy who has 146K to spend on a turntable probably has enough disposable financial resources not to care whether it's 146K or even 246K, especially those in the Far East market where price paid is a measure of the owner's status often irrespective of other factors.
nt
I said NT/.
Makes sense that most folks dropping 6 figures on anything that isn't a house will have a different concept of money. When you're using it to keep score then yeah, the exhorbitant price is probably one of the top three positives. In fact in order of importance it's likely "looks, price, performance" with the top two being way more important than the third. Kind of like the sterling silver Audis some Arabian oil sheiks drive around in.
Since I haven't discovered any bubbling crude in my backyard despite shooting at some food I am glad the SL can compete with something worth over 100k.
So, I listen to it on my office system: Modded Celestion SL6S and Peachtree iDecco. Yes, it is a desk top system and not my reference but in near field it does a very good job and much better than most desk top systems.
Anyway, I'm sticking to what I posted earlier. The second sample, to my ears, is more enjoyable. I get a better sense of depth and width, as well as, it presents the instruments in a more organic manner. The first sample is more sterile, a bit harder sounding and over all less enjoyable.
The difference to these ears is not subtle and would justify preferring one over the other every time.
Now whether I picked the Coliburn or the 1200 is a different matter. I think the second is the Coliburn, as I think I could hear slight speed inconsistencies and pitch wavering. However, that did not change my preference for the second sample.
If I have it backwards, well, Mike should sell his Coliburn and buy the 1200. At least for playing back this track.
Wow, I just listened to the vocal sample and have to say that I enjoyed the first track more. The second track seemed to have a bit of a cloud over the sound and also the arm did not seem to track as well, as it sounded like there was some issues in some points.
So, I can't tell you which table is which, but rather, on this sample I preferred the first track.
Now, whether the second track of the first sample is the same table as the first track of the second sample is another story.
I guess we just have to see how it shakes down.
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