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In Reply to: RE: Classic arms jelco, sme or grace posted by raya on January 19, 2017 at 09:02:25
I would go with the SME,parts are readily available if needed. I would stay away from the Grace because of the oddball tonearm cable that is hard to find if needed.
And the Jelco is fine but not in the classic category that you are looking for.
Follow Ups:
wywires will MAKE you a cable for that arm. just tell Alex that hifitommy sent you.
info@wywires.com
...regards...tr
Grace is a 5 pin male cable.....easy to find and I've made them before. No problem there. Does that change your mind?
No it doesn't. Years ago I've owned the Grace 707and 747. I guess I just like SME arms better. Why did you include the Jelco? I've also owned a MMT and Audioquest arm which was made by Jelco and I didn't think they were any ball of fire!
But that's just my opinion,others might disagree!
I owned an MMT too, back in the day. It's not even in the same league as the 750 (I have two of them, beat out my VPI JMW arm very audibly).
Really! That is a high praise for a Grace. Have you played with a 940?
Oops, I misunderstood you. You were referring to the Jelco. I've heard from many great reports. Have use used the 12 inch version?
No, I have the 9"version (750D) on a modded Empire TT and a 10" (750E) on a MUCH modded Lenco.
The Grace g940 is a unipivot and much different animal than their gimbal arms. It was also designed by Mr. Ikeda and shares a lot with his other designs. The limitation of the 3009 series ii is a minus but it looks so cool. The Jelco might be a steal in the 12 inch version.
The
I'm not sure what limitations you're referring to relative to SME tonearms. I've owned a couple of SME Series II tonearms and I always thought they were very good. There is no question they are the easiest to align accurately because of their sliding base. I liked my SME III better and now I own the SME V, which is awesome. However, if your goal is to look vintage, the SME Series II plays the part better than the other two and it's a good performer to boot. The main problem is that older SME arms tend to be overly expensive.
Jelco is probably the best value because it's the most reasonably priced, although I don't know the cost of Grace tonearms. I've never liked Grace because of their oddball alignment. I guess I don't like tonearm manufacturers who don't understand tonearm geometry.
Good luck,
John Elison
The 3009 arms are relatively affordable and usually at the same price as the other two arms mentioned.
Most responses here have so far not been overwhelmingly in favor of the 3009 but I'll take yours as a positive, John.
Thanks.
For a "classic recreation" I am very much in favor of SME 3009 tonearms over the other two brands you selected. I just think they have the "classic" look more-so than the others. However, for optimal performance, I much prefer the SME V, IV, and 300 Series tonearms above all others. Those are my favorites.
Best regards,
John Elison
I really like the look of the 3009 but not the iii series. Although the series iii is ugly and would difficult for me to I'ive with.
Also, the more I think about it I'm leaning now toward using a modded and tricked out Denon 103 and if I do, that pretty much rules out the sme.
What is it that Grace didn't understand about geometry. I'm surprised that Mr. Ikeda was clueless about tonearm geometry as he has an excellent reputation for making a great arm.
It appears that Grace didn't understand where the alignment null-points should be placed for optimal performance. Like you, I also find it surprising that so many tonearm manufacturers don't seem to understand pivotal tonearm geometry. However, it's often fairly easy to alter key alignment parameters to compensate for a less than optimal design.
Best regards,
John Elison
Where should they be.?
> Where should they be.?
Exactly! Grace doesn't seem to know. Each Grace model seems to place them in different locations.
Vinyl engine has the instruction manual with what Grace says you should do for set up.
They tell you where they should be. Where do you say they should be for the 940?
Grace tells you effective length, offset angle, and overhang or mounting distance. These parameters define the geometry of their tonearms. The alignment null-points can be easily calculated and they are published in the Vinyl Engine's tonearm database .
The 940 has alignment null-point radii of 66.8-mm and 103.1-mm. This would be the optimal alignment for a phonograph record whose innermost and outermost modulated groove radii are 62.3-mm and 116.1-mm respectively. Since all 12-inch LPs begin their music at an outer groove radius of 146-mm, the outer groove area will have excessive distortion with this alignment. The other Grace geometries are equally absurd.
Best regards,
John Elison
John,
Would changing the overhangs and or spindle distance improve the distortion numbers? If so, what would you recommend?
I'm going to be installing the arm and would like to get it right out of the gate.
Thanks for your time and thoughts?
Ray
I would recommend using a pivot-to-spindle mounting distance of 219.5-mm and aligning your Grace tonearm for null-points of 66.00-mm and 120.89-mm. It would look like this:
.
.
Thanks a million for the graphs and charts. The visual really brings it home. Now off to drill my arm board and set up.
Edits: 02/07/17
Thanks John. This information will come in handy, since I've decided to go with the 940, which I will be trick out a bit.
I'm going to save a 12 inch Jelco for a different project.
BTW what would u recommend?
What would I recommend about what?
Null points
I prefer the null-points that minimize tracking error distortion within the modulated groove envelope.
Which appear to be the ones in the chart above? However, I thought you said that Grace had it wrong and these appear to be calabrated using Grace's measurements. Helped if I'm reading things wrong.
Thanks.
> Which appear to be the ones in the chart above?
Sorry! I don't see a chart. However, if you look at the Vinyl Engine's tonearm database, it shows the alignment null-points for Grace tonearms. They all appear to me to be absurd alignments relative to modern 12-inch LPs.
I have written hundreds if not thousands of posts in this Vinyl Asylum about tonearm geometry and alignment so it shouldn't be hard for you find my philosophy of proper tonearm alignment. I adhere to the same alignment philosophy as SME and Graham as well as many other manufacturers who understand tonearm geometry. However, there appears to be more tonearm manufacturers who don't understand tonearm geometry than those who do. It's unfortunate, but true.
You might want to read Brian Kearns' Treatise on Cartridge Alignment, Part 1 and Part 2 as well as some of the original technical papers at the link below.
Good luck,
John Elison
Will do, thanks.
I have a 707 and I think it works well with high compliance cartridges, such as Shure and ADC, but it would not be my choice for a MC cartridge that puts a lot of energy back in the cartridge. Also, the cuing and VTA adjustment is primitive. In general, the Jelco is a better arm, but the choice of cartridge would effect that decision.
Dave
I'm not sure what you mean by, "No, it doesn't". If you are referring to the cable, it is most certainly a 5 pin male. I currently have this tone arm and have also made more than a few cables for it using a 5 pin Cardas DIN.
Yes, it is 5-pin male on both my 707 and 704.
Dave
You asked if it changed my mind and I replied no it doesn't.
Got you. Thanks.
I had no problem replacing the Grace cable. There were multiple versions available online.
While I probably have heard the other tonearms, I've only owned the Grace, for something like 35 years now. It is playing right now, on my 35 year old Rega "Don't let the sun go down on me..."
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