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I've long been frustrated by listening to mono LPs with a stereo cartridge on my VPI HRX/3D arm 'table. I'd hear what seemed to me like false stereo. I'd hear what sounded like smearing of the aural image across the soundstage, particularly on sibilants. No matter what I did regarding tracking force, antiskate, or azimuth, these issues never resolved. So when VPI's HW announced on the firm's forum that he had a gently used 12" 3D armwand for sale, I jumped on it. He recommended Ortofon's Qunitet White mono MC cartridge, which I bought from a European vendor on EBay. Well, all I can say is that for a grand total of $1250, I have a brand new insight into about 20% of my record collection. No more sibilant spitting on Louis Armstrong's vocals. No more vague pseudo-stereo imaging. And the best part is that the arm/cartridge combo is giving me lovely instrumental timbres, right out of the box. I could get used to this mono thing, particularly the enhanced sense of depth that some mono LPs seem to present. Good stuff!
Follow Ups:
Any comments on the AT 33 Mono, specifically as it relates to the wiring diagram at the bottom of the linked page (click on features!). Is it more of a "true mono" cartridge than the Quintet?Thinking of doing a mono setup and I'm torn between the AT and the Ortofon.
Edits: 09/03/16
When I had a dealer set up my stereo cartridge, he checked all the settings by playing a mono record (without using the mono switch on the preamp). In particular, he was listening for a rock solid central image with no smeared sibilants. When he got that right, he was satisfied.
This was the second dealer I had do it; the first one screwed up the installation badly enough that the cartridge had to be sent back for repair. I'm not saying that a mono carriage would not have made the record sound better, but am just bringing up another point of information.
The cartridge is a van den Hul Frog, on a very old Well Tempered turntable. I think the result are very good, especially in terms of imaging, focus, and depth. But I mostly listen to stereo.
The path to heaven is subtle.
We've had some lively discussions of this topic. I cannot help but think that if a "mono" cartridge is derived from a stereo cartridge design, as may be the case for the Quintet, then it is quite likely that the mono output signal was derived by internally bridging the L and R channel outputs. This is no different from using a line or phono stage with a "Mono" switch. It is quite difficult to get accurate information on how various mono cartridges were configured. Some of them are "true" mono for sure, e.g., the Miyajimas and some of those older Ortofons and EMTs. Some others are stereo cartridges with bridged outputs. If your preamplifier has no mono switch, then you'd need a mono cartridge for sure. Further, using the mono switch should give all the same benefits as using a mono cartridge, so far as I can figure out. I do have such a preamp, and I do perceive the great benefit of using it when playing a mono LP, such that I have not yet pulled the trigger on buying a mono cartridge. I am curious whether using both a "legitimate" mono cartridge AND the mono switch on my preamplifier would produce greater benefits than using only one or the other.
Yes the topic has been discussed at length and the nay-sayers generally admit they have never actually tried a true mono cartridge.
Mono records played with a stereo cartridge, summed or not, can sound amazing. But a far cry from the true magic that is contained in the grooves.
I always demonstrate at shows with a mono cartridge, Miyajima Zero. A table with the same arm for both cartridges so we buck the arm/table out as a possible source of difference. Miyajima stereo cartridge, take your pick. Start with the stereo cartridge then switch to the mono.
I don't recall a time when anyone in the room did not agree the mono cartridge is significantly better, night-and-day actually. Always a blast!!!
A skeptic here until I heard a true mono cartridge. No turning back after hearing the difference.
You write, "Mono records played with a stereo cartridge, summed or not, can sound amazing." That is certainly NOT my position. I think there is very much to gain by at least using a preamplifier with a mono mode, if one is going to play mono LPs with a stereo cartridge. I don't think the difference between replay in stereo vs mono mode is trivial in this situation. However, I do not know of a theoretical basis for saying a priori that stereo cartridge/mono mode is inferior to using a mono cartridge that was built by internally bridging L and R channels of what originally was a stereo cartridge. The question in my mind is whether there is still more gold to be mined, if one uses BOTH a mono cartridge AND in mono mode. And if I ever do purchase a mono cartridge, it will be a Miyajima, probably; we are going to Japan in October.
I don't think you understand my position. Perhaps I did a poor job of explaining
There are some folks that have claimed there is no difference playing a mono record using a stereo cartridge versus a true mono cartridge. Their line of thinking may or may not include using a mono switch on the preamp with the stereo cartridge. IME these people make these kind claims without having actually tried a true mono cartridge.
And some folks even go further claiming mono is not very good to begin with so why bother with any of this?
Mono records while nice sounding with stereo cartridges, summed or not, fall far short of the same mono records played with a true mono cartridge. Mono switches on a preamp with a stereo cartridge are not the same thing. Stereo cartridges internally summed are not the same thing.
If one is looking for the best performance of mono discs they will be using a true mono cartridge.
Besides the previously mentioned Myajima, please provide the names of other true mono cartridges, if you will.
I'm planning to add a second turntable and cartridge for mono, but lack this information and I'd really like to avoid one of the summed stereo cartridges.
I thought a true mono cartridge has no compliance in the vertical and would tear up a stereo record.
Is this true of a modern, so called "true mono cartridge"?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
that a true mono cartridge might damage a stereo LP, but this thread is all about and only about playing mono LPs, so far as I can tell. The issue is whether a stereo cartridge used with the mono mode switch on a preamplifier can deliver all that mono has to offer, or not.
Lew, this is from a thread in a different forum that I think you were a part of.
"A true mono cartridge generates signal from horizontal motion, only. A stereo cartridge modified to become a mono cartridge will still respond to vertical motion. Why is this an important distinction? Even though a modified cartridge is supposed to suppress vertical signal by summing, bridging, coil alignment, etc it is still there."
So my question is whether of not a modern "mono" cartridge responds to vertical motion in any way?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"A true mono cartridge has only one coil and is designed to respond to lateral signals only. It does not respond to vertical signals. A stereo cartridge strapped or otherwise manipulated to become a mono cartridge still responds to vertical signals. The introduction of the vertical signal causes distortion and phase anomolies that are not fully canceled by summing the 2 signals. The anomolies are audible. That is why many consider a true mono cartridge (one coil only) to be superior to a stereo cartridge adapted to mono.
The Denon 102 is a unique cartridge. It has only one coil, thus only generates signal from lateral modulations, but the stylus has vertical compliance, ie- it responds to vertical grooves in the record. However no signal is created or generated from the vertical grooves. The cartridge was produced by Denon in the 60's for Japanese AM radio stations. The inclusion of vertical stylus compliance allowed the stations to play stereo records with a mono cartridge and not damage the grooves."
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Thanks for quoting me !
Best,
Ross
You're welcome.
Thank you for writing it.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
was with trying to find out from reading manufacturer blurbs whether their "mono" cartridges are built the way you describe, such that they are not capable of responding to vertical deflection of the stylus, or not. This is why I quoted the Ortofon website, which on one hand defines what a "true mono" cartridge should do, and on the other hand tells us that one of their "true mono" cartridges (the Quintet Mono) is a stereo cartridge where the two channels are strapped internally.As far as I can tell a "mono"cartridge that is derived from a stereo cartridge by internal bridging of the two channels WILL be capable of responding to vertical movement in the groove; it depends upon phase cancellation effects to get rid of such voltages before outputting them, and it really should be no different from using a mono mode switch on a preamplifier. This may or may not be OK for getting the most out of a mono LP, which is another question.
And yada yada
Edits: 08/28/16
Ortofon has a wide range of true mono cartridges. (see link.) There is also the Denon 102 and a few AT cartridges. Do a search. Much has been posted on the Vinyl Asylum.
Dave
It's a perfect example of the confusion around this issue. Note that the Quintet Mono is on the page with other so-called "true mono" cartridges marketed by Ortofon. But if you read the blurb under the Quintet heading, here is one paragraph:
"Quintet Mono uses a strapped output to deliver the same output signal from both sets of pole pins. This effectively eliminates the need for mono-specific equipment, making it possible to enjoy true mono reproduction on any stereo playback system."
To me this says quite obviously that the Quintet Mono is a stereo cartridge wherein the two channels are "strapped". Yet Ortofon refers to it on its list of
"true mono" cartridges, the heading for which states that "true mono" is superior to using a stereo cartridge plus mono switch OR a stereo cartridge that is internally strapped, because those two options will respond to vertical deflection of the stylus tip caused by narrowing grooves or by dust/dirt in grooves. This is why I never took the plunge back when I was considering the purchase of a mono cartridge. I could not wade through the BS.
I do know that Miyajima started from the ground up to design and build a true mono cartridge that has no capacity for stereo.
I have the Ortofon Quintet Mono. It is listed in the "True Mono" link you provided. But on the "Read More" page for Quintet Mono itself it says:
"Quintet Mono uses a strapped output to deliver the same output signal from both sets of pole pins."
What does this mean? Is it "True Mono" (compliance in only one direction) or not?
rlindsa
I emailed Ortofon support and got a nice response. I'm seeking their permission to post here; also invited them to post here directly if they prefer.
rlindsa
Ortofon gave me permission to post this.My question to them:
"I have a Quintet Mono and love it. So this is not a complaint, but just a question for clarification.
On your website (http://www.ortofon.com/hifi/cartridges-ranges/true-mono), you discuss True Mono cartridges. On that website, you say: "Another significant advantage of using a mono cartridge to play mono records is the absence of response to vertical movement. This means that a mono cartridge is essentially impervious to the pinching effect which comes into action when the stylus is pushed vertically upward in very narrow grooves. In addition, the response to dust, dirt and wear will be reduced substantially as the vertical component will not be heard. The final result will be a much more clean and noiseless reproduction of the mono record. These effects simply cannot be achieved merely by the use of a mono switch." From that, I assume you mean that a True Mono cartridge does not respond to movement in the vertical direction.
"Later on the same page, you identify the MC Quintet Mono as a True Mono cartridge. But on the "Read More" site for the Quintet, it says "Quintet Mono uses a strapped output to deliver the same output signal from both sets of pole pins." I'm confused by that statement. Some people claim that statement means the Quintet Mono is NOT a True Mono cartridge. Put more simply, does the Quintet Mono respond at all to vertical movement?
"Thanks in advance."
Their response:"There is no contradiction between the statements on our website.
"Our true mono cartridges detect the lateral signal only: true mono means the cartridge uses a strapped output to deliver the same output signal from both sets of pole pins (positive phase of the output signal corresponds to either outer or inner groove wall and the negative phase of the signal of course to the other groove wall). This eliminates the need for mono-specific equipment and makes it possible to enjoy true mono reproduction on any stereo playback system. There is only one signal out and this is on both pair of terminals for convenience since - again - most people have stereo equipment and need signal for both channels.
"Quintet Mono is a true mono cartridge."
rlindsa
Edits: 08/30/16
The context of "strapped" seems to have been the confusion here. Thanks for the clarification!
Dave
will post what they say.
rlindsa
I guess you need to be careful!Dave
Edits: 08/28/16
It looks like I'm going to opt for a Denon DL-102.
I'd like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread for their input!
a stereo cartridge adapted for mono. Vertical response will be present, but theoretically canceled by summing the output from both sides of the cartridge to create a single output signal.
In practice the vertical component does not fully cancel out, and introduces distortion and phase anomalies that are audible.
Very few real mono cartridges available. Lots of cartridges adapted for mono however.
I mentioned this contradiction in my post above your response to Crazy Dave.
Sorry I can't help the only mono cartridges I have played with are the Miyajima. The Zero and Premium BE. Miyajima does have more affordable mono's versus the Zero/Premium BE. I believe the importer has a Miyajima mono in the ~$650 range.
I also have the Quintet Mono cartridge (in my case, on a JMW 10.5i arm) and think it is wonderful. I disconnected one of the outputs from the cartridge, so I only get get sound from one speaker (unless I engage the Sum switch on my pre-amp). It's a fantastic cartridge.The Beatles in Mono blows me away, as do most of the mono jazz recordings I have.
rlindsa
Edits: 08/26/16
Nice to hear that you have revitalized your mono collection.
Would you care to tell which eBay dealer you sourced the cartridge from?
Thakker gmbh & co. Kg. Shipped promptly and the cartridge is great. They offered the lowest price by far.
Wouldn't it be even more proper if you listened to just one speaker system?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I don't know about what the most "proper" thing in mono playback might be but some of us enjoy the comb-filtering effects when playing a mono recording on a stereo speaker system.
Why didn't I think of that! I could have saved so much money! ;)
I meant in addition to using a mono cartridge.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"No more sibilant spitting on Louis Armstrong's vocals"
I've scored both copies of Ella & Louis(I & again)
bin diving earlier this year.
Great to almost minty period Verve pre MGM mono presses. While I can get lost in th music, I always thought my cart alignment was off of something, which was driving me nuts!
Louie's vocals are sometimes spitty through the ART 9.
If I ever see a used 3D, I just may grab it, get a mono cart, and put in on the stock arm as a dedicated go to.
I was blasting "Stomping at the Savoy"(Again) minutes before reading this thread This tune is such a rockin cut. Easy to imagine Louis and Ella having a great time recording it.
My collection of Divas-Ella,Billie... include some period monos. One of these days I will break down and get a mono cart.
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