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In Reply to: RE: A fully tweaked up Lenco.. posted by marc-homeslice on July 22, 2016 at 08:07:43
Well, I have no doubt that a balls-to-the wall DIY Lenco effort such as described could be competitive with anything but I'd call that a new design with some Lenco parts in it.It would cost more than a modest 301 setup to reproduce, aside from requiring time, research, work, and some skills and knowledge, plus serious motivation.
I wish two things: That Lenco did a super uncompromised model (from today's standpoint) and that I had one!
I stand by my recommendation of the 301 as an expensive but great semi-turnkey/usable stock and non-problematic idler motor unit.
I play with a lot of turntables and still love the way the Garrard integrates and layers stuff. Maybe a bit more restrained than a few idlers I have on hand, but it really creates a sense of excitement and anticipation to my ear. My favorite of all time.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Edits: 07/22/16Follow Ups:
I'd love to have a Garrard.. but the cost of the initial deck.. especially a 301 in good shape is what? Maybe a 1k USD? And you'd be working up a sweet arm anf plinth for it just like a top notch build on something like a Lenco.
The original poster lives in Europe I believe. The cost of a 50 hz. donor machine, a
ptp plate, a new overbuilt bearing, a new or refirbished idler assembly would cost a good bit less than that.. it's got a more gradual upgrade path and the initial buy in is less.. and the performance is close to or equivalent.
That's all i'm trying to say. And.. there are a TON of diy builds and builders to aid the assent of your turntable.
If I had the bread.. i'd own at least a 301 and a 401 myself. Have a nice one.. either way.. always good to see someone newly interested in the big idlers. :)
I understand. I am on Lenco Heaven and know many of the Euro Lenco guys personally.I bought a Bogen/Lenco B52 so I can hang with them in true lenco comradeship.
I feel the pain of 301 pricing but being in the elite hi-fi manufacturer community, I recognize that a lot of folks world wide would be happy to pop $2k on a motor unit. I'd want a TT and a nice used car for $2k! Only kidding but not by much.
I can see a $2k 301 as a FAR better deal than some of the wacko space program tables being sold for huge cash. Go to the Munich show and there are 100 expensive TT makers, like one per buyer.
For me, a 301 was a lifetime purchase. I had mine for 30 years as my main table while dozens cane and went. Definitely got my $50 out of it.
I am a huge fan of DIY and even lean toward the ghetto fabulous aesthetic a bit. I spend some cash but appreciate the concept of spending less for top results and enjoyment on DIY philosophical grounds.
Here's my latest project: RoK T12H with Karmadon silicone-damped arm from the Ukraine. Cost me about $900 including yellow hot rod paint, but the arm was new ($450). I'm proud of this bad-ass offbeat project!
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Edits: 07/22/16
Gotta love a neat RoK build! Is that a huge motor peeking below the top plate? And that arm!
Nice to see someone who is involved with something as utterly droolworthy as Silbatone stuff loving a Garrard and playing w idler builds. Makes sense in a fabulous "they don't build em like this anymore" symetry.. but i'd think you could maybe barter for any kind've deck you'd like. :)
Silbatone gear, while musically excellent and super-interesting technologically, is too fancy for me. I only have one old Silbatone 300B amp.I try to DIY everything I can, but I am getting lazy as I approach AARP age.
I get to hear a number of very expensive modern TTs in the Silbatone halls and elsewhere in my travels, and I'll take a 301 or RoK for myself. One of the other Silbatone guys uses a 301 though.
I can't say I am a high-end guy at all. Select upscale vintage and DIY are what interests me. Old idler TTs straddle these interests.
For the high end crowd, 301s are basically like FREE. Only $2k. Cheap.
Such people exist, 1000s in Seoul alone, but every day more and more are learning the lesson that new, fancy, and expensive does not equate to good.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Edits: 07/22/16
Someone above said:
"Such people exist, 1000s in Seoul alone, but every day more and more are learning the lesson that new, fancy, and expensive does not equate to good."
This is true of many things in life. But with these turntables, though many new turntables are poor, a great modern turntable will humble, even embarrass, these turntables.
Really nice to use like a 57 Chevy, enjoying nostalgia, vintage look and feel, but they don't stand up to one of the great (admittedly few are in that category) modern turntables. And, let's face it, that only makes sense if we pull ourselves out of the wishful (and admittedly attractive) dream world.
A great anything from any era is going to be pretty good.There were not many great turntables in the past, and I wonder how many are truly great today. It is hard to know this. I suspect not many make the grade, despite impressive looks and arcane design.
There are many highly ambitious TTs, that is for sure. Some are rather self-embarassing in this respect. Gold plated Mercedes for Sheiks.
And why do any of us need (or deserve) GREAT? Am I The Great Khan? Are you the King?
Taking stock of my lot in life, I would say I need a "very good" setup and I can be satisfied with "OK," especially on a temporary experimental research basis, knowing I have a very good TT in reserve.
My personal 301 with Schick 12" and an SPU or a DL103 I would call "very good"...good enough for me. Really excellent on jazz, blues, and Funkadelic.
At the Munich Show we had Frank Schroeder playing an antique Neumann TT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6vY7oTdql8
THAT is a great TT!!
And Schick spinning wax on a 301. Sounded like angels from above to my ear. Anything I can actively enjoy at a show 12 hours a day for a week is notable in my book
We were not embarrassed. We were proud of the sound. I'd call it top notch analog.
Playing worn old records on a Rek o Kut T12H TOTL 1953 or a stock Lenco is quite OK as a musical experience. I did this Saturday night, played all four sides of a beat copy of Jimmy Reed at Carnegie Hall on Veejay with a Pickering conical. Drank a few IPAs and had a great time all by myself.
I played "Nina at the Village Gate" on Colpix. Love the music but the pressing is totally unlistenable on most good turntables. Icy and nasty. With a fat elliptical in a junkbox Pickering XV-15 on a Rek-o-Kut B12H, it sounded very good.
This is what audio is all about, I thought to myself while entertained by this plebeian activity.
The ones who should be embarrassed are the rich dopes who pop $100k on a monster TT then lay back thinking they have the BEST.
There is no such thing!!
I know many who have abandoned modern TTs for better vintage tables because they prefer what they do. I know people who have collections of great vintage TTs and mostly use a fancy modern one.
Good modern belt drives are quieter, can be more detailed, might be more 3-D but whether they are more satisfying than an old idler wheel table is an open question that one can only answer for themselves.
In my mind, "embarassment" and "dream world" apply to those who unthinkingly accept that "new, expensive, and well-reviewed" are the keys to the heavenly kingdom.
Having been around the audio business for a long while, I guess one could say I am a well-developed cynical optimist. I think a lot of low to mid priced gear is just fine for listening to music and the majority of super high end stuff is for the mullets. Rich mullets.
Most people who make sweeping claims such as "modern beats vintage" or "vintage is always better" have not seriously made the comparison themselves. They are siding with what they like on philosophical or techno-aesthetic grounds. The world is too complicated and granular for such vast pronouncements.
One must evaluate specifics...this specific unit in this system playing the LPs that person likes. An answer arrived at through that empirical process can not be wrong.
There is much to be embarrassed about in high end audio, but a listener finding the appropriate technology to achieve comfort, enjoyment and pride in their systems is not one of them, regardless of which devices they end up with, or their age and market value.
So, horn kid, I do not buy your assertions. I need more details and a better sense of the criteria and experiences you are bringing to the dialogue to even evaluate what you are trying to say.
If you are saying that a nice modern table will beat an unrestored old clunker on a flimsy plywood plinth with a junky old 1960 tonearm with corroded headshell wires, I might agree just to beat a hasty retreat.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Edits: 08/08/16
--
I left this discussion with a sense that I was not giving the Lenco proper respect, so I pulled out my B62/L70 and put a new M44-7 on it to give it a listen. I was using an antique M3D that was on the TT when I got it.
A stock L70 is very good indeed, although the spring-loaded arm is bizarre and flaky, I rebuilt mine and put new bearings in it and still rarely get exactly the same stylus pressure reading twice in succession.
And with the non adjustable mounting position in the headshell, depart from conical styli at your own risk. DL103 might be as high end as one can go with this arm, cartridge wise.
As forum discussion led me to expect, the Shure M44-7 works real well in the L70 and presents a natural and more sophisticated than expected frame. Musical sophistication not audiophile sophistication. Not top detail and HF sparkle but lots of dynamic shadings and tonal textures. Great old record playing machine that doesn't emphasize vinyl noise.
I only know this stock Lenco model but it does sound liquid, compelling, and alive. Has the fluidity of a TD124 with more solidity of foundation and a bit more dynamic snap than I remember from the Thorens, but it has been a long while. Definitely a good mechanical base, shared among all Lenco models.
Too bad there are few alternative arms that will plug right in given the 233mm mounting radius. Can't even change the shoebox-sized headshell because the mount (and color code!) are totally non-conventional.
No, it isn't 301/Schick good on a cost-no-object head to head basis, not to me, but for a couple hundred bucks, Lenco has to be on the recommended list despite a litany of quirks and challenges.
With a couple thousand discretionary bills in the budget, I recommend the legendary 301 over the L70!
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
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