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Hi all,
New member here so please bear with me. And apologies if this thread is in the wrong section. So I've had my analog rig for around 3 years now. I am quite pleased with its performance, but I know it can sound better. Any suggestions on any other components to add to this system to make this thing hum better? Note that I use the Feickert Protractor to calibrate by set up. Even after spending so much $ on this system, I still call myself a novice in this space so any suggestion/s would be excellent!
Here's my components:
Turntable - VPI Classic 2
Cartridge - Ortofon 2M Black
Speakers - DeVore Fidelity Gibbon 88 Floorstanders
Amp - Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum Integrated Amp w/KT120 tubes
Interconnects - Audioquest Colorado
Speaker Cables - Audioquest Rockefeller
Console - Box Furniture Co. Rack
Follow Ups:
This is my observation.
Your write that you want to make your system to "hum better." As noted by others this desire is non-specific. Any attempt to satisfy your quest will be problematic. So, I offer the following two suggestions.
1. As others have suggested, optimize your system by cleaning, tightening and re-aligning all components from cartridge to speakers. Re-think your speaker set-up and listening position after reading some home audio books including Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound." This will take time and can be fun.
2. If you still have the desire to make your system "hum better," go to audio shows, audio stores, audio society meetings, and friends set-ups to listen and learn what it is that you crave and how it is achieved. If you live away from large metropolitan areas, spend the money to travel to hear for yourself. You've already invested a sizable amount of money on your system. The expense of travel to learn more about what you want to hear is small in comparison. Once you have a realistic goal or two in mind, then it is reasonable (I know this is the Audio Asylum and reason may be a stretch) to pursue component upgrades or change direction entirely.
Best wishes on your journey. Cheers.
Ian
I'm not a big cable believer so I'll leave those alone. Of everything else listed, I'd say move on from the Rogue. I demoed a Rogue Pharaoh and it was dry, bland, and one dimensional in my setup. I then tried a Line Magnetic LM-518IA and never looked back. Not sure if that's your answer, but that's where I'd suggest starting to look first.
Kevin T
"religion is the opiate of the masses"
Your system has reached the point of diminishing returns. Unless you are contemplating substantial changes, understand that changes made to your present system would yield (potentially) incremental improvements.
My recs:
Clean every connection, cable end, in/out jack. Unseat tubes and clean pins and sockets. Make sure everything is set up correctly. Tighten screws holding transformers in place, and screws holding speaker drivers in place.
Experiment with isolation of components, and damping of critical areas of components.
Verify that your speaker locations are ideal for your room.
When all of the above has been completed-
Consider a separate phono stage, then a cartridge upgrade. Certainly consider a LOMC with SUT. Your table and arm are capable of much more than you currently experience. Limiting factors now are the cartridge and phono stage of your integrated.
Longer term, investigate a different amplifier. Your speakers may be better served by a lower power, but higher quality amplifier.
Good Luck.
Me again. As you can read, the suggestions are all over the map. The reason is, your question lacks specificity. "I know it can be better" is too open ended. Hell, you can have sex with Isabella Rossellini and know sex could be better with someone else (doubtful, but one could think so), but unless you are more specific about what aspect of the musical reproduction you personally find lacking, everyone is just guessing at what improvement track will satisfy you and be a worthwhile investment of your hard earn dough. I still think your integrate amp w/ inboard phonostage, and your cabling are your weakest links, but like the rest of the respondents, I am just guessing. Good luck.
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
requires more and better music. Buy records, that will vastly increase the enjoyment of your system. If you can forget about the system and listen to music, there is no need to upgrade.
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
How many records is enough? Hehe!:-)
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
I have a couple thousand and I have not his that point yet!
Dave
I was trying to be funny to Penguin's comment as I think he recently posted he has 50,000 lps!
True! As I click on "Pay now" on MusicDirect
The requirements for phono usage (between TT and phono inputs) is very different.
Whatever may sound good between a separate phonostage and the amps may not necessarily mean that it is suitable for phono usage.
The cable's capacitance values will a direct impactAnd is the ground cable ran as a separate independent cable?
It needs to be checked for correct directionality.Check these 2 issues before embarking on any hardware upgrades....
Edits: 02/03/16 02/03/16 02/03/16
Colorado interconnects are electronically shielded with "triple balanced geometry". I see no reason why they would not work as a phono cable, but if you see a reason, please let me know.
Dave
Bear with me as I'm trying to recall a discussion I had with the AQ rep at the time. But he recommended the Colorado, but this is a great question. Have I been using the wrong interconnects the whole time? Although I've owned my equipment for 3 years, I still have much to learn.
I don't think so. See my comments above.
Dave
like MikeWI posted....
At this level, your money would be best spent on treating the room as part of the system.
If you want make sure you are getting the most of your entire system, you may want looking into purchasing Jim Smith's book or dvd's of Get Better Sound. A worthwhile small investment. See link below. Google if you want more info and reviews.
Edits: 02/03/16
It really should read: "Tell me how I can spend $20,000 + on upgrades to my system to achieve a MODEST (at best) improvement." When you ask a question like this, you tred in dangerous territory. How do any of these so-called experts know what will improve your system? They've never heard it! It may have a beautiful synergy. The sounds coming from your speakers may be truly ethereal. It may be in a room with great natural acoustics. How many of us have spent big dollars on different components only to be underwhelmed by the very small difference in sound? On the other hand, how many of us are honest enough to admit that the great sums we just spent have yielded, at best, a very modest improvement?
Sorry to be so negative. I guess I shouldn't read these posts as they drive me a little crazy!
A very noticible upgrade in your system would be a high mass 12" tonearm ( there are lots of them so you have plenty to choose from ) and a Ortofon Spu Royal GM MKII.That would be a major upgrade in your system actualy with the Ortofon 2M Black.
You also will need a step up transformer for MC cartdriges. For a Ortofon SPU i would sugest the Ortofon Verto or a Ortofon ST 80.
The Ortofon SPU Royal GM MKII is one of the best kept secrets in analog audio because it has the same stylus as the MC ANNA, MC A95, Xpression - The fantastic Ortofon Replicant 100.(although not in the polished version and with a diferent cantiliver). Also it has Electrum coils, consisting of a gold and silver alloy.
Regarding cables i would suggest DIY pure silver, the best...
note: i have this combo ( 12" tonearm + Ortofon Spu Royal GM MKII) in my system so i can assure you that its fantastic !
Edits: 02/03/16 02/03/16 02/03/16 02/03/16
Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge and Manley Chinook SE phonostage from Upscale Audio.
The other suggestions have a lot of value but at this point, I would recommend that you look at room treatments. If you have none, this would be an area of great potential for improvements.
Bass absorbers in the corners and first reflection point absorbers would give you a good starting point and reveal how significantly the room treatments can affect your sound quality.
Mike
Get a separate tube phono preamp! Croft makes a nice one!
I would replace that Cronus with a Line Magnetic 216IA. Much better for the 88s. Also, try some Auditorium 23 speaker cables. And I'd go with Dynavector 20x2L and P75 mk.3 phonostage.
The upgrade train, more often than not, leads to a depleted bank account and a questionable increase in enjoyment.
-Wendell
...at the very least buy a nice bottle of wine, bourbon or scotch to accompany listening.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
But whatever you do, don't put on the Doors, or you wife will find you passed out in the morning with an empty bottle of bourbon or scotch with the needle dragging in the runout grove.
Dave
Opus 33 1/3
I agree with geoff that a phono stage would be a good upgrade. You can get a really good one for $2000. I have the Rogue Ares and love it. The Manley Chinook is also well regarded.
Either will give you the flexibility to enjoy a better cartridge. I love the Soundsmith Zephyr mkii, but wouldn't say no to a dynavector xx-2 or ortofon cadenza bronze if I had the cash. I'd also like to try the Audio-Technica ART7.
I have the VPI prime and it made a tremendous improvement to my system, coming from a Scout 1.1. I think the arm is a large part of that, so would recommend a 3d tonearm wand as an upgrade.
I'd suggest having someone local listen to the rig, and then make suggestions.....I'd also have a turntable technician check out the adjustments on the rig. Most vinyl rigs I've seen have something "off" in the setup, and anything "off" greatly compromises performance.
The most common problems I've seen with vinyl rigs are less-than-ideal VTA, too much anti-skate (the stylus skews to the left over time, viewed from the front, mounted on the arm), wrong-way anti-skate (stylus skew to the right- Seen this with arms which use the tonearm wire to apply anti-skate), incorrect VTF (use a scale/balance, not the tonearm adjustments), improper overhang (tracking error is too great at beginning or end of LP), insufficient isolation (structural feedback robs power and causes "shout"), and azimuth (which also causes stylus to go skew over time).
Another problem I often see is an arm whose mass is too low (light) or too high (heavy) for the cartridge..... Too light, the bass is weak and soundstage is vague. Too heavy, warps cause "wow/flutter" issues. (This is something that has to be seen on the rig, can't tell you with a certain arm/cartridge.)
I'd only upgrade the rig if it's confirmed that all the adjustments are dead-on, and sound still isn't quite there.
Edits: 02/02/16
Even my LP-12 copy gets a tune up tweak every 6 months. While some say set it and forget it for at least a year or two, I tend to side with John J.A. at S'phile- even if you THINK it doesn't need adjustment, doing so might surprise you with how "out" it actually is/was!
Dman
Analog Junkie
What are you adjusting , springs, arm or both ...?
Usually, JUST the springs- gotta get the Linn-bounce right. Sometimes it actually DOES drift.
But as a rule, I generally won't do anything with the arm adjustments unless something measures (tracking weight, for example) really out of whack, or the sound has changed significantly (and I can actually HEAR that change!).
Dman
Analog Junkie
nt
Only going by what your equipment is, I would vote for a proper dedicated phono stage.
No doubt all the recommendations will change the sonics, but perhaps you're not hearing what your table and cart can REALLY sound like plugged into a nice phono stage.
I have a roughly equivalent performance integrated tube amp and a VPI Classic. A separate phono stage of decent quality was a game changer going from the built in as you are using.
it's a safe bet you won't go back after hearing your table thru a good phono stage. I've read threads with owners declaring the phono section as meh. If you've got the dough, something like the Rogue Ares or Manley Chinook probably would fit the bill.
You could then decide to play with nicer carts-LOMC which offer a bit more than your current cart-which is already a fine cart.
I hesitate to bring up an amp in this forum but I just read a British review where the reviewer dumped all over KT120 tubes preferring either KT88/6550 or KT150 tubes. This reviewer used to design and sell tube amps giving him some authority on the subject. I've also heard the same thing years ago from a long term USA amp manufacturer who told me the KT120 was less linear than the KT88/6550 and he would never use it even though it would give higher output.
Just a suggestion but I believe the weakest link is the one to strengthen and you might look at this link.
Rather than any specific suggestions, I suggest that you plan a trip to go listen to high end systems at different dealers. This may take some travel, as better dealers are far between. However, the cost of travel is far less than the cost of buying the wrong equipment.
Along these lines, high end system vary substantially with individual tastes. Some of the most highly recommended systems sound terrible to me, while others love them. I prefer the realtively lean sound of British HiFi, and as such prefer Linn. But others don't care for it. So, my advice is to learn what you like. Just listen!
Jim E
The VPI will take a much better cartridge, and then you'd need much better electronics all the way through, starting with the phono stage. This won't be cheap, of course.
Right now your turntable and speakers are ahead of the rest of your system.
nt
You have excellent speakers that are 90.5 dB efficient, not particularly high efficiency, but unless you have a large room or like headbanger volume, you should not need a KT-120 amp. Disclosure, I have never been a fan of anything Rogue I have heard. Vinyl have a certain finesse that I doubt your amps allow you to hear. Ditch them first and get a good dedicate phonostage while you are at it. plenty of room for cartridge upgrade (I prefer LOMC) but I would start with a new amp. Plenty more better resolving and nuanced cables at there than AQ, as well.
As always, my 2 cents are free.
"Disclosure, I have never been a fan of anything Rogue I have heard."
The one Rogue Audio amp I once owned, it ran power tubes so hard (was "auto-biased"), they didn't last long.... One suggestion would be to have the bias modded to run the tubes cooler, provided it is "auto-biased". (If it's manual bias, just set the bias level lower.)
Can it sound better? The honest answer is yes - if you are willing to pay the price. Inexpensive tweaks likely will yield "different" sound, not necessarily better sound. But the best relatively cheap tweak is to use some acoustic treatments in your listening room. Climbing the cost ladder, the next thing to consider is the quality of the tubes you are using. Check out the tubes asylum for suggestions keyed to your integrated amp. Next, comes the electricity you're feeding the system. A good A/C regenerator such as those sold by PS Audio, might help. But to get seriously better sound, the key elements are the transducers in your system - the phono cartridge and the speakers. I'd say the cartridge is the weak link, particularly as compared with the speakers. Here, unfortunately. Your integrated's low phono gain (44 db, according to the Rogue website) is a serious limiting factor - you can't use low output MC cartridges without a step-up transformer. So here is where money really enters the equation. The arm on your table is good enough for a seriously good LOMC such as the Lyra Delos, but the combined cost of the cart and a tranny, if bought new, likely would double your vinyl front end investment. Hope this helps.
Don't know how yousay the 2MBlk is week link! To be a MM cart...its very good! I think all he needs to do is add a phono amp like a Musical Surroundings or Black Cube ll.
What I said was that relative to his speakers, his cartridge was the poorer transducer. Personally I think the Clearaudio Maestro Ebony V2 MM would blow the doors off it, as would any number of LOMC carts. But it's his money and his ears.
I've heard both carts and they aren't that far apart. Depends on the system synergy.
Just my opinion, but there is no need here for a LOMC cartridge to upgrade this system. On the other hand, I am not familiar with the pluses and minuses of the 2M Black. In any case, there are a lot of great MM and MI cartridges that will perform very well with 44db of gain in the phono stage, if it turns out the 2M Black is a limitation.
a decent RCM? If you don't have a vacuum assisted RCM, this upgrade will make a big difference...maybe huge :)
NT
I've been looking to get the VPI 16.5. On the wish list!
I made my own. A Home Depot special for about $80 bucks. Does what the 16.5 does and just as well.
Whichever way you go, you will consider a vacuum assisted RCM a major upgrade.
Jeff,
Can you share some details about your home brew cleaner?
I think I'm going to go the same route.
Thanks!
Freak out...Far out...In out....
and try to post.
used is always an option
Happy Listening
The phono stage in the Cronus is of average quality. I would investigate a seperate phone stage.
Thanks for the feedback. After reading all these responses, I may go the phono stage route!
I have the Rogue Cronus integrated. It's phonostage is pretty decent. Replacing it might be a big disappointment.
You'll get more feedback over at the "vinyl" forum here at AA. Good luck.
You might consider power line conditioning and power cord upgrades if not currently implemented.
Vibration control devices/methods can also be very beneficial for customized system tuning efforts...
Thanks for your feedback! What are AA-suggested power line conditioners? Sub $500?
I have the Panamax 5300 and have all my equipment except amps plugged in. Bought it from Amazon about $400. It made a noticeable difference for the price. It also improved my Picture on my TV. Everything has a blacker background. It also has a front voltage meter which I think is a nice feature. I'm lucky in my area I always have at least 122 volts to 125 at late night listening.
The 9 series was going for about $100. Can't beat that. You may not need a power conditioner at all, although I run my sources through one.
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