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In Reply to: RE: MM cartridge closest to sound and tracking of a Denon DL301MKII posted by John Elison on September 28, 2015 at 09:58:15
Hi John.
I agree with your reasoning ..even though my conclusions.are different. Intrinsically
i think mm are more honest but lack audiophile strengths. So good mm manufactures
tend to try and get more detail . Mc tends to be superficially better but tend to lack the homey honesty which mm ( including, believe it or not , clearaudio) gets easily. So the task for a good mc designer is to get more honesty . The lyra and ortofon people have improved the honesty of their mc offerings in last 8 years...even though they don't carry the easy grace of most mm. WHEN I Compared cartridges with singers i have heard many times live.. placido, Willie nelson, bb king .. i found the lyra titan and music maker cartridges to be closest to how I remember them. ( by the way . I dont think either of these cartridges represent mc or mm too well ) . I do think listening to sound can be misleading without a live reference.
Follow Ups:
Hearing those voices through a PA system doesn't count.In a recording studio the voices are picked up by a very good studio mic and the signal from that mic is recorded without going through a power amp or speakers.
The reference you should be looking for would be to hear placido, Willie nelson, bb king's voice live without a mic or amplifier or speakers involved.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 10/05/15 10/05/15
With all respect, Tre', that's an old debate with no winners. The vast majority of us will never hear the great singers or musicians live and direct with no amplification. Even when I go to a local jazz club, and I am sitting within 15 feet of the musicians, there is nevertheless some sort of house PA system with speakers on stage left and right. Usually I am hearing part direct live music from the musicians AND the colorations of the PA system, in unison. Anyway, I don't think most of us are in your rather unique situation as a recording engineer. So, each of us has his or her own preconceived notion of "live", which is at least in part "electronic". Thus, for me, what distinguishes a "real" sound from one that is less real is dynamics and the lack of transient distortions I associate with live auditioning.
" Intrinsically i think mm are more honest but lack audiophile strengths."
Don't take this as an attack....since I understand where you are coming from...and actually found that my lowly Stanton 681/D625E actually gives incredibly "satisfying noises" from my jazz LPs with a warm "bloom" that still "sounds" very natural. I have properly matched the loading so it is optimum with the 681 and I have a ruler flat FR up to 19kHz before the response rolls off.
However, your statement can be taken as an oxymoron when we are talking about Fidelity! By definition, "HiFi"/High Fidelity implies that the reproduction is accurate (as far as the technology allows). Therefore, surely, you can't have a transducer that is both honest but lacking in accuracy - Is it possible for a transducer that is accurate to be considered "dishonest"? ;)
From an engineering point of view, the MM cartridge has a few things working against it. One key problem is in the requirement to match the electrical resonance both in frequency and Q to give flattest response. For many designs, the electrical resonance is well within the upper presence band and this can and does colour the sound. To do this "perfectly" would require a custom phono stage input that matches both the cartridge AND the mechanical properties of the stylus assembly. In practice, you can get "near enough" "most of the time" with the adjustable phono stage inputs on some products combined with suitable cables, but the MC as a principle eliminates this aspect due to the very much lower inductance and (typically) mechanical resonance that is much higher than many MMs. However, what you gain here is lost in the requirement for higher gain and the challenge in matching SUT characteristics with the paired MM phono stage or headamp noise performance.
I read your other post where you have multiple samples of the same model and experienced different results - I have found the same. This is why I buy multiples of each stylus for my MMs to match the body.
I don't think the transducer principle has much to do with the accuracy of the reproduced sound. I think it has more to do with the ability to match to your ancillary components.
Given that many jazz LPs from the 60s had a bandwidth that only went up to 15kHz and it wasn't until the 70s that wider bandwidth recordings could be cut more easily when CD-4 was introduced and higher power cutting head amplifiers became possible, combined with half-speed mastering, I don't buy into the frequency response as being the reason why MCs sound better.
I think the real reason for MC being preferred has to be that the phase anomalies occur well outside the audio passband and the chance of colouration is less.
I have MMs (the Stanton LZS being the perfect example) that sound indistinguishable to my MCs from a technical accuracy point of view and have superb examples from each type of transducer.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
Agree with much of your assessment except phase performance.
Ortofon clearly established that phase reversal occurred at mechanical resonance, not electrical. Until someone performs MEASUREMENTS with results to the contrary, I'll accept this as being true.
Regards,
neo
BIRD LIVES
Thanks for the link - the article was very interesting and I didn't know that Ortofon had done this research. It sounds rather like they were strengthening their position on MC preference though!
What I found most interesting in the article was the subjective description of the sound stage scale and depth perceptions relative to the amount of damping. The results mirror what I have observed with my various cartridges - the Stanton 681/Pickering XV15 cartridges are probably the most extreme examples in my collection being very high inductance and the mechanical resonance is well within the audio passband yet they have a very flat frequency response. When correctly loaded , what I hear with these cartridges is a very "enlarged" presentation which is not inappropriate with certain recordings. The sound is detailed, but what I notice is that the sound stage is quite flat and complex sounds get a little homogenised. I think this is consistent with what the article. With close mic'd small-group jazz records for example, or (classical) chamber groups/solo instruments, these cartridges still sound quite pleasing and I understand why they have remained so popular despite the modest price.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
If you study electrical theory, you will find that phase reversal results from electrical resonance, too. In fact, you should read Ortofon's paper entitled "A Method For Optimizing Sound Quality In Moving Coil Cartridges" presented at the 71st Convention of the Audio Engineering Society in March 1982 at Montreux. But, you also need to study electrical resonance and filter design relative to phase shift.
Good luck,
John Elison
Good luck to you also, John.
No denying electrical resonance and filters will affect phase, but have you ever measured phase vs. amplitude response in cartridges? If your results differ from Ortofon, I'd be interested in seeing them.
They state unequivocally, a phase shift approaching 180° occurs at mechanical resonance. The graphs/plots illustrate this.
Regards,
neo
BIRD LIVES
> They state unequivocally, a phase shift approaching 180° occurs at mechanical resonance.
I am not arguing against the occurrence of a mechanical resonance from cantilever elasticity and effective tip mass, but there is also an electrical resonance in all circuits containing an inductor and a capacitor. Consequently, all cartridges have an electrical resonance in addition to their mechanical cantilever resonance.
The cartridge electrical resonance is a result of the inductance of the cartridge's coils reacting with the capacitance of electrical wiring combined with added capacitive loading. In other words, all cartridges exhibit an electrical resonance when connected to a phono stage and this always results in phase reversal. The values of inductance associated with high-output moving magnet cartridges places their electrical resonance in the upper audio octave between 10-kHz and 20-kHz whereas the same electrical resonance for all low-output moving coils is always above 1-MHz, well outside the audio frequency range.
Therefore, not only do cartridge designers have to contend with the mechanical resonance of the cantilever, but they also have to contend with an electrical resonance being smack dab in the middle of the upper audible octave for MM cartridges only. They do not have to worry about the electrical resonance for low-output moving coils because it occurs above 1-MHz.
The reason original Dynavector cartridges were made with very short, fat ruby and diamond cantilevers was to move their cantilever bending resonances as far above the audible frequency range as possible. Most ordinary cartridges have their cantilever mechanical resonance right around 20-kHz or slightly above, but Dynavector made cartridges with mechanical cantilever resonances at 50-kHz and beyond. In fact, the 17D has its cantilever bending resonance at 80-kHz and the old 13D with its 1.3-mm short diamond cantilever had its cantilever bending resonance at 100-kHz. These cartridges had both their mechanical and electrical resonances so far removed from the audible frequency range that they didn't have to contend with any phase shift within audible frequencies.
Anthony,
Considering the date of this paper, I think Ortofon was supporting the MC as a superior transducer. After all they invented it and were selling higher priced MCs. Throughout the '80s the Japanese seemed to benefit the most with less expensive models becoming popular.
The contention that superior phase response is entirely responsible for superior imaging, seems to ignore the rising high end of the MC200. This might be a factor, but the description was convincing. As damping was added to an unlistenable, undamped MC, imaging suffered along with phase response. To bad they didn't name the 5 MM.
Your choice of the 681 as the other extreme of inductance, is a good one. What's the inductance > 900mH ? If a cart like this can do as well as it does, what's the potential for MM with less than half that amount?
Regards,
BIRD LIVES
John,
I'm not denying what you're saying about electrical resonance, but it's misleading to talk about phase response exclusively in electrical terms without mechanical resonance. For a MC with a 6mm boron cantilever phase shift occurs around 27KHz any way you slice it.
I know you're right about carts with extremely low tip mass or no cantilever having very high resonant frequency, but you prefer more conventional designs. The DL-S1 has an aluminum cantilever and the ART7 has a slim boron cantilever, around 6mm ? I'm not making a case for MMs and I like the DL-S1, but I don't think it's because of phase performance.
Regards,
BIRD LIVES
I find it interesting you include Placido Domingo along with Willie Nelson and BB King, although "the absolute sound" is certainly one of the most accepted references among audio enthusiasts. Unfortunately, I attend very few live concerts, but my experience with amplified concerts such as Willie Nelson and BB King is that my own stereo system always sounds more transparent and more realistic than the amplifiers and speakers used in live concerts. The only concerts I've attended that impressed me as sounding better than my own home stereo system were symphony orchestras in good concert halls.
I think the best reference with which to compare phono cartridges would be the master tape or the original master recording. After all, this is what the vinyl record is intended to reproduce. Of course, very few of us have access to that reference; I certainly don't. Therefore, like most audio enthusiasts, I select the phono cartridge that sounds best to me in my home stereo system from the limited number of cartridges available to me for audition.
I read your other post where you said you had listened to 50 MM and 50 MC cartridges in your own home system. That's impressive! I certainly don't have that level of experience and nearly all of my MM experience was in the 1960s and early 1970s. I switched to LOMC cartridges in the late 1970s, although prior to the switch I had listened to MM exclusively. When I heard my first Ortofon low-output moving coil through a MCA-76 head amp, it impressed me like no MM had ever done. That's when I switched to MC and never looked back. Of course, all the reference level phono cartridges of that time period were low-output moving coils.
Thanks again for your response.
Best regards,
John Elison
Hi John
in the beginning i tried to understand analog. But i quickly discovered
that it was much more practical to buy a bunch of tables and arms and cartridges and step ups and my phono stages. And mix and match till I got what I wanted Yeah crazy..150k++..but i stopped some time ago. I realize analog is so fickle..for example , I have heard 4 Olympus cartridges and owned one.. all 4 sounded quite different. This is just the reality of analog. It is extremely fickle and rules are made to be broken. So my experience is that everything I experience is up for grabs.
Meanwhile. ..Shakespeare plato etc were allowed to talk about other peoples motives and behavior. Not sure why you are not allowed to. And I think anybody who has heard say 5 mc and 5 mm knows the difference between the 2 camps. You don't really need to hear 50 or100 to give authority to your opinion.
Bottom line is that ..ime..mc needs a costly and involved supporting cast before it can equal
a good mm.
is an exercise in futility.
Is the 301 a better tracker than the other carts mentioned? I never owned a 301, but had a 103d, 160, 304, and a DL-S1 for a few weeks. No complaints about tracking, but I don't listen to cannon shots. Seems to me the AT/ML examples will out-track the 304 (+ 301?) and the 2M Black tracks to 80um - perhaps not the very best, but adequate?
Flood2 makes a good point about resonance, vibrations, LF interactions, etc. Without even knowing what set-up yields these odd results, and not knowing what phono stage, how can this question be answered?
I had an M20FL Super and it's one I regret selling. At the time I only had one phono stage where I could use a higher than 47K resistance value with MM gain. The M20 needs high capacitance at 47K to fill in the upper mids/treble. Otherwise it sounds distant, like you're listening from across the street. The original version of the cart came with caps mounted behind the body. Instead of using 400 to 600pF (total), I wound up with about 55K/300pF. It was still slightly laid back which I liked on many records, big bass and the highs were clear and articulate, quite enjoyable.
Some people seem to get very different results with particular carts. Even though there is some basis of commonality, phono stage differences account for much of it and when you factor in other variables.....
Most of the Signet line had no AT counterpart. If a generator was identical like a Signet 9/10 and an AT 22 - 25, the stylus/cantilever was very different. Carts like the TK5Ea, 7LCa were unique except for other TK5_ and TK7_. I'm talking about second generation Signets with the 100/120 stylus fitment. Earlier ones had round plugs like the AT20.
Clearaudio isn't stupid in selecting the AT95 as the basis for their entire MM line including Maestro. With 400mH it's a neutral sounding generator and with some modification - well you can judge for yourself.
Most of the line has an AT95 type stylus - straight alum cantilever and bonded tip @ 15cu. Unfortunately, all the replacement styli (just trim the plastic) are bonded, but with a Soundsmith level 1 or an aftermarket 95shibata or HE might make a good substitute for a 301.
Even better would be my potted 95 w/aluminum top. If an arm < 12g mass is used, a 3472 series stylus is better. It tracks max 1.6g and sounds a little more articulate. One of those could be sent to Soundsmith for an upgrade w/higher cu.
neo
BIRD LIVES
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