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100.1.144.101
In Reply to: RE: "And this from someone who has such embarrassingly little experience with both types..." posted by John Elison on September 29, 2015 at 08:01:49
Question from me on February 4, 2006:
"You say you've owned/tried a number of mm's in your system. Which ones?"
Your answer:
"I've owned all the Shure V-15 cartridge models along with Stanton 681EE and possibly 681EEE, Pickering something-or-other, Empire 2000Z, Audio Technica AT-20SLa, and Ortofon ULM-55E as far as I can remember. I probably owned one or two others along the way. Unfortunately, I've never owned a Grado, though."
Follow Ups:
MM Cartridges I've owned:Shure V-15 Type II
Shure V-15 Type III
Shure V-15 Type IV
Shure V-15 Type V MR
Shure V-15VxMR (purchased in 2004 to find out if I still liked LOMC better)
Stanton 681EE
Stanton 681EEE
Empire 2000Z
Pickering (something or another)
Audio Technica AT-20 SLa
Ortofon ULM-55eMC Cartridges I've owned: <
Dynavector Ruby 2.5mm square cross-section cantilever (really nice cartridge)
Dynavector Ruby 2.3mm round cross-section cantilever (not quite as nice as the 2.5)
Dynavector DRT XV-1 (exhibited significant interchannel phase shift and excessive harmonic distortion)
Ortofon MC-20 with MCA-76 head amp
Ortofon MC-20 Super
Ortofon MC-100
Ortofon MC-200
Ortofon MC-2000 (the original high-compliance model; my favorite of all cartridges)
Sumiko BPS (pretty much sucked)
Audio Technica OC9 (very nice cartridge for the price)
Audio Technica OC9ML/II
Audio Technica AT33EV
Denon DL-301II (very nice cartridge for the price; also high-compliance moving coil)
Denon DL-103R
Denon DL-103SA
Denon DL-S1 (excellent cartridge, my current favorite -- second best to the Ortofon MC-2000)
I owned a number of the top-of-the-line MM cartridges in the early 1970s before discovering the superiority of low-output moving coils in 1976 with an Ortofon MC-20 and MCA-76 head amp.Best regards,
John Elison
Edits: 09/29/15
MM cartridge brands you have not owned :-
Garrott
Nagaoka
Clearaudio
Sonus
Technics
Signet
Fidelity Research
Acutex
Glanz
And what do you call top-of-the-line MM cartridges from the early 1970s?
Because none of the MMs you have listed would qualify for that description on my list...
MC brands you have not owned:-
Koetsu
Van den Hul
Lyra
Clearaudio
Zyx
Fidelity Research
Sony
MIT
Not sure how much of a difference there's been between the AT and Signet carts. And some say there's an awful lot in common with the CA and AT carts.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
Well if you can point to an equivalent AT to the Signet TK3E and 3Ea, TK5E and 5Ea, TK7E and 7Ea, TK7SU and TK7LCa I'd appreciate it?
And I don't mean pointing to the same generator.....I mean listening.
And just because AT makes the basic generator for many CA cartridges doesn't mean AT have an exact equivalent?
But it's strange that you don't point to any of John's entire Shure V15 catalogue as 'redundancy'...nor the two Stanton 681s or Dynavector Rubys or Ortofons or Audio Technicas or Denons......?
If it would make you feel better that I point to John's list and mention his redundancy, I'll do that. I'm on my lunch break and hhave some spare time.
The reality is that many of the Signet and AT carts were virtually identical. And I don't see how putting a wood body on an existing cart changes the fact that it's still, at it's core, what it is. If I take a Pontiac Fiero or a Chrysler LeBaron and use a kit that makes them look like a Lamborghini or a Mercedes, that doesn't mean they actually perform like those vehicles. Yes, I understand how a wood body would dampen the cart it was placed on. And I understand that the Garrott Bros. placed new styli on existing cantilevers. And I understand that there are very few cantilever manufacturers in the world.
My point is that your list is, perhaps, not as varied as it may seem. Neither's Ellisons.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
The basic point remains the same. John has virtually no experience with top tier mm's/mi's, whether current or past models. He doesn't have any idea what an old Grado TLZ sounded like, let alone a new Master or above. He has no experience with old top Technics mm's (kind of amusing in view of his love affair with the 1200 tt), nor the top Stantons, nor the AT ML170 (which was one of 2 *mm* carts some of the best mastering engineers in the U.S. said provided playback closest to the mic feed, NOT a mc) among many other mm's already mentioned. Considering that, it seems obvious that his pronouncements - his opinions stated as if only a deaf dolt could disagree - are based damn near entirely on measurements. If measurements are the criteria by which you judge hifi products, then you may agree with John and find it unnecessary to, ahh, LISTEN.As an aside......
I'm not sure if what you said about wood bodies was a reference to Grados or not. If so, the body material change Grado made was not the only change they made. I can tell you as someone who owned/used a TLZ for years and went to a Master, its no contest. The Master is in another league. Dunno, maybe you were referring to something like putting a different body on a Denon 103 with no other changes.
Edits: 09/30/15
I think JE has tried enough MM's to conclude reasonably that MC's sound better to him. I also understand what you mean by the way he delivers his opinions.
Yep, I meant wood bodies in general used on carts by Denon and AT. And Benz now that I think of it. They dampen the cart.
In my own experience, I have found examples of different designs that I like quite a bit. I like to think of myself as repulsed by dogmatism regarding our hobby. I don't necessarily care how a result is attained, at least at first. What counts is the result. Perhaps in time I may become curious about how that result was gotten. Carts are a funny component, and rightfully viewed with scepticism. I don't share JE's love for the DL-S1, although I do like my DL-103D quite a bit.
For the last 18 months, I've preferred my Cadenza Bronze above all comers. With my BAT VK-10SE or my Lehmann Audio Decade, the Bronze delivers a level of palpability that none, save a retipped Fidelity Research FR-1 MKIII delivers from my stable, and I own quiet a few myself.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
nt
Rick, you mean to say that the Master series is far superior to the TLZ? Just want to be sure. Back in the day (30 years ago or more), the TLZ was a fave of mine. I found it sounded best with a 100K load resistor, rather than 47K.
yes, IMO the Master is considerably better than the TLZ in virtually every parameter. Tracks better (haven't seen the Grado "dance" since I switched, and I had an appropriate arm tube for the TLZ), more texture/color, better bass delineation. Dunno that I'd say hf's are more extended, but cymbals do sound less hashy - ditto for high strings. I think generally speaking hf extension is neither a priority for me nor a strength of my system (spkrs. & preamp mainly), so.......Haven't heard the latest top model Grado Statement, but from everything I've read it definitely surpasses the Master. It better, considering the huge price difference.
Funny thing is, I've been so pleased with my Ortofon M20fl Super and AT ML170 carts that though my Master needs a retip I've had it sitting in its box ready to be sent to Grado for around a year and a half. I still haven't even tried the NOS Astatic MF-200 I bought almost 2 years ago.
Bear in mind, I have one tt and one arm, and I hate changing/adjusting carts. To me its a real PITA. If I'm enjoying the sound of whatever cart I have on, I tend to just leave it on until it needs a new stylus. Hopefully this rap will spur me to finally send the Master in and check out the Acutex.
Edits: 09/30/15
I really liked my TLZ back in the day (when I thought it was normal to own only one tt, one tonearm, and one cartridge at a time), but I did not care for any of the lesser models Grado marketed in that same time frame (e.g., the MCZ sounded dull and rolled off to my ears). But I still own that very same TLZ, and now it does not compete with the best of the MM/MI cartridges that occupy me. I thought it might be due to aging of the suspension, but maybe it's simply that the Stanton 980LZS, Acutex, Grace, etc, are just better than the TLZ. FWIW, I have two Ortofon M20FL Super samples and have auditioned one of them; in my system it is not even close to the Stanton/Acutex/Grace. I've been meaning to sell both samples. Different strokes...
I might try a Grado Master or Statement some time. Thanks.
Dunno if it has anything to do with being a musician, but it seems that I'm more easily satisfied than many inmates, certainly including you, Lew.
Hopefully I'll enjoy the Acutex I have more than the Ortofon - though I don't believe the MF200 is a model up to the level of your Acutex. I do know that both my Master and AT ML170 are better than the Ort. Nevertheless, for me the M20fl is definitely satisfying.
But as you said, different strokes. I suspect you'd relegate my entire system to your garage, or give it away to a needy friend :-)
As a musician myself I would agree - I'm more interested in the music itself than whether I can hear fingers on strings or "someone coughing in the background with startling realism".
Some of my favourite records are absolutely appalling recordings (such as a bootleg recording made from a tape recorded off the radio of Stan Getz). I can't tell you how many times that CD got played as I tried to work out his solos! Having the music to listen to is worth more to me than a good recording.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
Please forgive me if I offended you in any way. I was just pointing out, with respect to the MM vs MC brouhaha that is going on around us, that tastes differ, and that's fine with me. Lots of others with fancy gear like the M20FL Super better than I. And I don't look down on them or you for liking it; in fact your positive testimony makes me wonder whether I used the wrong tonearm or otherwise set it up incorrectly. This exchange started with your statement that the Grado Master is superior to the TLZ, which was a one time preference of mine, after all. (One of the reasons I felt free to mention that the M20FL Super did not perform up to top level in my system, always "in my system".)
Although I am not a professional musician, I do occasionally perform locally as a singer, and I attend live music presentations (usually jazz) at least twice a month. If anything, this exposure makes me more demanding as an audiophile, or rather to say it frames my opinions.
I was just being sincere. I really do think I'm less demanding - for lack of a better word - than quite a few AA inmates, including you. I wouldn't even describe myself as an audiophile compared to lottsa hifi enthusiasts. Whereas many AA inmates and audiophiles *enjoy* the quest for better playback sound, I actually dread expending the time/effort to audition stuff. Guess its a combination of laziness and not being bugged about my playback most of the time when I listen to music. Actually I really enjoy the sound I'm getting despite hearing its flaws and being able to afford better.
I've been thinking about upgrading at least my pre for a long time but haven't gotten off my ass to audition anything. My amp's electrolytic caps are waaaay past replacement time, yet I've done zilch except make a call to Steve McCormack which I haven't followed up on. The tech I like and use - Ben Jacoby in Brooklyn - has convinced me I should check out SET before I do anything, yet I still haven't heard a single SET setup.
So no, Lew, absolutely no offense taken.
I have read in many instances about guys who play in big bands and/or orchestras, that they are not fussy at all when it comes to home audio. I get that. In the end, I'm happy listening to the "Real Jazz" station on Sirius FM, in my car on the way to and from work, but I admit that at home I am a freak. My wife is so tolerant of my audio "stuff" that I sometimes wonder whether she is of this earth.
to add to any list of top drawer MM cartridges for the cognoscenti.
I wouldn't waste my money on any of the brands in your MC list and it's my opinion that a Denon DL-S1 is far superior to any of the cartridges in your MM list, so what's your point?
To each his own!
Wait a minute John , no Grado! you should be ashamed of yourself..... :)
Everyone is entitled to his opinion and that's what Forums like this are for.
But when you make a general ill-informed statement implicitly denigrating others who do not hold with your opinion.....you open yourself to examination of the myopic and limited experiences which have helped you form that opinion.
That's my point!
This subject has come up many times and John just repeats the same shit.
Over the years I've evolved from being annoyed about John's unfortunate trait of stating his relatively uninformed opinions on the mm vs. mc thing as if they were facts to enjoying the humorous aspects of it. John would have been perfect as a character on Seinfeld :-)
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