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In Reply to: RE: Also, the longer the tonearm,... posted by John Elison on September 25, 2015 at 10:11:09
I stand corrected. Although I do think it would be quite easy to make a one degree error in alignment of the cantilever.What happens to a 12-incher vs a 9-incher, if one mis-locates the pivot point by 1.0mm. Does that have any effect on tracking angle distortion, or does that only affect the location of the points on the playing surface where zero tracking angle distortion momentarily occurs?
Edits: 09/25/15Follow Ups:
Most of us who know anything about tonearm alignment use a protractor with two alignment grids. If you make a 1.0-mm error overhang, it will become clear to you when you find it impossible to achieve alignment at both null-points simultaneously.
I don't think you will find anyone who decides not to own a linear tracking tonearm because they think it will have worse alignment than a 9-inch pivotal tonearm. However, the argument you are promoting against longer tonearms suggests exactly that. After all, a linear tracking tonearm is equivalent to a pivotal tonearm with infinite length. Are you suggesting a 9-inch tonearm can be aligned with less tracking error than a linear tracking tonearm? If not, then it is equally ridiculous to think that a 9-inch tonearm can be aligned with less tracking error than 12 or 14-inch tonearm.
Best regards,
John Elison
I am not even arguing. I thought I was having a discussion from which I might learn something. You apparently perceive me as antagonistic, instead and as usual.
I didn't mean to suggest you were arguing in the sense of a quarrel, disagreement, squabble, fight, or dispute. Instead, I was using the word "argument" to mean a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.No, I don't perceive you as antagonistic.
Actually, the "argument" suggesting longer tonearms are more sensitive to alignment errors was introduced by Bob Graham in defense of his decision not to manufacturer and sell a 12-inch tonearm. He wrote a white paper on the subject as a sales and marketing tactic because he didn't want to be bothered making a 12-inch version of his unipivot tonearm. When I read his argument against long tonearms, I conducted my own analysis and found that the alignment error had to be fairly large for his argument to hold any weight. One of his examples talked about a 3-degree offset error. If you can't get offset error well under one-degree, it's probably not worth attempting to align your tonearm to begin with.
Best regards,
John Elison
Edits: 09/25/15
May I add that the Graham White Paper was in response to the 12" arm VPI and SME were making and the great reviews they were getting. I responded at the time that he was either not telling the truth or not that bright, there was actually no other choice!!!
HW
Hi HW , John , et al ,
Thank you very much for your replies it's very educational and I hope every body is learning from this discussion . BTW Bob Graham is making a 12" tonearm for the Tech Das turntable. It seems he disregarded the white paper he made in the 90's .Harry , John how does one determine how long a tonearm should be. Instead of 12" for example why not 13" instead of 14" ? What is the sweet spot in your experience?
One thing I notice is that the longer the tonearm one needs a bigger & wider plinth. Good if one owns the new VPI Avenger were in you just use a longer cantilever to hold the turntable assembly.
Mondial
because your phrase "sweet spot" is undefined and not obviously definable. A "sweet spot" between (or among) what and what (&c.)?
Jeremy
Hi ,
The sweet spot from tonearm design (length ) from 9" to 16"
Mondial
But then the answer flows from John Ellison, above. The "sweet spot" (I still think that's a misnomer) would be the longest length compatible with an inertial mass suitable for your cartridge of choice and with such design constraints as may be dictated by the size of your table's plinth or your ability to move (relocate) a separate tonearm support.
Because size of plinth/complexity of arm-support location, lightness of tonearm materials to compensate for mass of extra length without forsaking rigidity, and so on, tend to involve financial considerations, I suppose that cost is another factor in finding the "sweet spot". I also guess that your "sweet spot" might well differ from many others' -- possibly you may even be unique. Hence my cavil about "sweet spot".
Jeremy
Hi ,
So the question should be what would be the ideal lenght w/ the least tracking error , is the most compatible w/ most cartridges , and can be mounted on a reasonable size plinth.
Thanks for the correction . Personally goldenthal w/c would you choose? If its ok may I know what is the lenght of your tonearm (9, 10, 10.5 , 11 , 12 , 14 , 16 ) or are you into linear tracking & what cartridge ? Why did you choose that lenght , type of tonearm , model & brand.
Thanks in advance,
Mondial
and remember, I am flawed . . . have been made over many years. I currently use a 9-inch SME pivoted tonearm, but may next move to a Sme V-12 or a Kuzma 4-point. At this time, I do not intend to experiment with tangential trackers. The best-sounding cartridges of my experience have all been low-output mcs tending to have medium to low compliance so a bit of extra mass from the extra length is unlikely to hurt and may help. Not my pocketbook but my sense of sanity causes me to agree with John Ellison re phono-cartridge value vs. cost (as well as some other of his views that seem to me based on math and common sense).
As for why I choose/chose various pieces of equipment I now use in my home, I suspect that that depends/depended on the quality of my hearing at the relevant times as well as that of my access to pieces for serious audition, how financially flush I was feeling, whether long-term exposure to a piece drove me away or recommended keeping or finding something similar, my primitive (but not totally absent) understanding of engineering principles, other considerations explicable only by a psychologist -- shall I go on?
The "sweet spot" in all that is the one that commends itself most to you and not necessarily to any other.
Good luck,
Jeremy
You forgot to mention one's choice of speakers as a prime determinant of what upstream equipment one chooses. Subconsciously or consciously, those choices of upstream components will be governed by the "sound" one is seeking from one's speakers (and one's listening room).
Sorry for misspelling your name -- I do that more and more as I age (too many years correcting papers).
Jeremy
Most people misspell my name. I've never figured out why since my name is spelled correctly in bold black letter on every one of my posts. I think some people do it on purpose. ;-)
It doesn't bother me, though.
Best regards,
John Elison
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