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In Reply to: RE: VPI Prime up and running posted by SgreenP@MSN.com on September 22, 2015 at 14:55:00
Cartridge is the Ortofon MC-20 with Soundsmith's top rebuild.
-Wendell
Follow Ups:
Dear John,
Absolutely correct. Extreme unilateral wear has been well documented and if abused in this way it is the first thing that re-tippers comment on when they see the stylus. As Len Gregory once said, "diamonds are most certainly NOT forever and they don't just wear...they burn!"Adjusting for a perfect L-R balance by ear is the way forward.
The non-bias users will typically tend to control any mis-track in the RH channel by adding extra VTF which only accelerates the uni-lateral wear.
Edits: 09/28/15
Wrong Vic.....I don't readjust the VTF once I've found that sweet spot, and I don't hear any mistracking on any disc I have. (VPI printed 3D arm)
Dear Sgreen,
You say, "once I've found that (VTF) sweet spot" which involves...er...adjustment???? This hardly disproves my point!
You are being very coy where factual evidence is concerned i.e. real numbers.If you were to use minimum specified VTF in conjunction with zero bias I would expect your cart to mis-track on certain high intensity music peaks on normal music programme.(Not test discs which would be even worse)
So, without anti-skate, under such conditions, you would be at a disadvantage.
A quick demonstration to prove it to yourself would be to minimise VTF then run a "minimally taxing" test track such as the +12db on the HFNRR - which most carts will handle in their sleep provided the settings for bias etc are at least semi-optimal.Some carts are exceptional when it comes to tracking. My mothballed MMIII could probably handle anything even with zero A/S and min VTF. Doesn't make those settings desirable though. ;^)
I'm curious. What's the max VTF range of your cart and what is your current MEASURED VTF?
If you normally use a force in the top half of the range then yes, further adjustment may not be necessary but that still doesn't disprove my point.
Edits: 09/24/15
Vitor7 What are you talking about. The sweet spot that I find is the one that sounds the best when I originally set up/install the cartridge. Every cartridge has a sweet spot...non are exactly what the manufacturer says is optimum. Right now I have an Ortofon Winfield in the arm. The manufacturer says that optimum is 2.8...I have it at 2.7 because to ME it sounds just a hair better at 2.7. An adjustment in weight also affects the VTA.. the heavier setting pushing down flattens the stylus. In my system 2.7 provides the correct (as I hear it) vta (of course this adjustment also is determined by arm height). I hear no mistracking with any record I play. I care about listening to Mahler er al, not a test record. I have listened with and without a/s, and to ME I like the sound better without a/s. Proper a/s can not be accomplished with any tonearm. It varies so much with sound level at any given point, where the cartridge is on the record, the frequency at any given point, ,,,a myriad of variables. The record and any adjustment is a constantly moving target. It may be true that your a/s is as wrong as much as mine without a/s is wrong. I don't care at all if anyone uses or not uses a/s. This website is for the bantering of information. I feel confident about no a/s and encourage those reading to simply try the cartridge with and without and choose the sound for themselves. You cannot tell me my cartridge is not operating properly since you haven't heard it...all you can do is read these words and move on. Take the information or not..your choice.
Victor...you seem upset, ...I still know not why. Simply forget anything I've said ...Have a nice day
Dear SGreen,
Cheeky & irreverent perhaps, upset, never ;^)
At the end of the day it is your right to exercise independence so who am I to argue? I'm not going to bang my head off a wall :)
Kind regards,
Dear SGreen,
Clearly YOU understood my question because you answered it and confirmed my guess(?) It wasn't my intention to be perceived as confrontational but merely to healthily debate as stated and encouraged by Forum rules.
BTW, not trying to be nasty but how do you know I've never heard an Ortofon Winfeld? I never mentioned this. (In fact it may have been the first time you even mentioned what cart you were using - unless you've done it in another thread???)
Finally if you want to live without A/S, like you say, that's your problem.
If you no longer wish to debate that's also fine by me.
It's best if you connect the antiskating device. There should be no difference in sound quality other than a possible improvement in imaging and soundstage. However, your stylus will wear unevenly without antiskating and it also might cause your cantilever to become skewed over time.
Best regards,
John Elison
Even if these are the only improvements....aren't improvements what its all about?
But, I thought you were arguing against antiskating! The improvements I noted are a result of using antiskating. Therefore, it is more logical to use antiskating than not, especially when considering other negative factors of uneven stylus wear and possible mistracking when not using antiskating.
John I have been using no anti-skate with top of line Benz, Orofon, Lyra, and Dyna cartridges for years, and never have had any damage problems. I can not attest to the asymetrical wear factor, but if that is so it hasn't been an issue for the life of the cartridge. If wear is a problem for the user, the best advice is to keep it in its original package unmounted...and even then it will not be pristine after a few years anyway.
I don't think your example is the best one to follow. Therefore, I would recommend everyone try using antiskating and make up their own minds whether or not to continue.
It is a fact that all pivotal tonearms generate skating force, which causes the stylus to press harder against the inner groove wall than the outer groove wall. It is also a fact that all styli wear out and those that have been played without antiskating wear out faster and unevenly. This can cause mistracking and premature record wear.
On a well designed tonearm, there will be little or no difference in sound quality when using or not using antiskating. Consequently, it is always better to use antiskating to counteract skating force and increase stylus life while reducing the risk of record damage.
Best regards,
John Elison
I am no expert on such things, but I know this; Peter Lederman is one smart guy and on top of that, he knows about such things as antiskate. His take; it is critical. He has his own method that now comes printed out with each retip-carefully drop the stylus between two lead-out grooves and in the one to two seconds or so that you have to observe before the stylus inevitably falls into the groove, watch for the tonearm/cartridge to gently glide inwards. What I learned with my Prime using his method is that the wire twist alone is not sufficient for optimum AS. You need to use either both the wire twist and counterweight or just the counterweight. One of the regulars here used to take a jab or three at VPI for being so slow to offer an AS counterweight on it's tables and continuing to espouse the unnecessary nature of AS. I now sympathize with that person's viewpoint.
If you can see the stylus assembly swing on a blank section of the leadout, whether inward or outward, then the swing must necessarily affect the sonic balance. I find that the only means for me to adjust a/s is by ear. If the system is set up properly, then the smallest swing inward or outward is noticeable on complex musical passages. If the system is not set up properly, then you will likely not be able to hear any difference in a/s adjustment.
Setting up the cartridge properly is a pain, involving a spiral micro-adjustment procedure : vtf, vta and a/s. Small adjustments in vtf will require compensatory adjustments in vta and a/s. I use complex musical passages to detect variations in distortion. The problem and pain are that improper levels of vtf, vta and a/s each produce somewhat different kinds of distortion, and the trick is to determine which kind of distortion is attributable to which cause.
Compounding the problem and pain is that in my setup using the Origin Live Illustrious mkiii, the skating force varies as the stylus tracks from the outer to the inner edge of the lp. I suspect that skating force may also vary with the complexity and loudness of the musical passages, or that the skating force becomes more noticeable during the tracking of these passages because the stylus spends more time in the air during loud passages.
If possible, stick with redbook or hi-res digital, which I consider to be plug-and-play compared to vinyl.
Looking directly in front of the cartridge as it tracks a record, I only see a left/right deflection when the arm is lowered to the spinning record. While the record is playing/in the groove, there is none ...maybe hardly perceptable. If you see a deflection, perhaps there is too much friction in your arm bearings or similar. You are correct Mlee, a/s varies within each bit of the playing record...loudness, frequency ...everything changes the skating force. All one can do is guess ...however, my records from 1960 sound better than the best current CD's I have ...even without a/s.
I agree, SgreenP@MSN.com, that 1960s classical records were miked differently from today's CDs. CD strengths include bass extension, bass definition, transparency, detail, macro-dynamics and absolute speed accuracy. To play to these strengths, recording engineers appear to use different microphones for different orchestral instruments, and the resulting mix made to sound transparent and detailed, with varying tonalities for each, individual instrument or instrumental section, assembled together like colorful paints on an artist's canvas.
Unfortunately, this is not what I hear at Carnegie Hall, or in any other indoor orchestral concert hall. There, the sound is chaotic and absolutely not detailed or transparent, with random harmonics bouncing at you from every which way, even when sitting close to the stage. Such a sound is inviting, exciting and at times thrilling. I generally do not get that with digital music, which to me sounds more measured and artificially constructed and arranged.
In deference to the OP, congrats to the VPI Prime, volunteer. That turntable should serve you well, with or without a/s.
That fits my experience with antiskate on VPI's 12" 3d arm. In addition, ensuring sufficient (but not excessive) antiskate will reduce inner groove distortion. Too much though will dull sound significantly. Be careful if using test records.
Good for you...I agree
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